The Forum > General Discussion > Was the Holocaust a pan-European project?
Was the Holocaust a pan-European project?
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Posted by stevenlmeyer, Thursday, 21 May 2009 2:39:30 PM
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Dear Steven,
The subject of the Holocaust in Lithuania exemplifies the arguments of those who insist that there is no such thing as "objective history." In discussing the Holocaust, as in any murder case, one camp may call for uncompromising indictment of all deemed guilty, while another, if not denying the guilt of the "defendant," may argue extenuating circumstances. The determination to write indictments in mass killings, all too easily leads onto the stereotyping of nations. In 1941 Jews died as the victims of the stereotypes that cast them as Communists and Jewish survivors of the Holocaust carried sterotypes of their oppressors with them. Continued stereotyping of any nation can encourage counter stereotyping and the result is usually a complete breakdown in communication. So what is the point of your article about Lithuanians? As for cultures and languages - they will survive, no matter what the changes in the world. Because it is in human nature to hold onto what is close and meaningful to pass on to other generations. Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 21 May 2009 6:44:25 PM
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Foxy,
It's not my article. It's der Spiegel's article. If you have problems with it you should write to the editors of der Spiegel. I'm sorry if what I wrote offends you but neither cultures nor languages are immortal. Both die. Actually I think I'm being generous in giving some languages and cultures till 2100. I suspect that the minor European languages such as Hungarian, Lithuanian, Polish and Russian will be pretty marginal by about 2075. They will bear the same relationship to the European society of 2075 that Aboriginal languages bear to the Australia of 2009. Let me put it this way. If a Polish Rip van Winkel had gone to sleep in Warsaw in 1909 and awoken in 2009 he would find a culture that was in many ways alien to him; but it would still be recognisably Polish. He would certainly be able to understand the language. If he then went to sleep another 100 years and re-awoke in 2109 what would he find? My suspicion is that he would not even be able to understand the language. I'm not saying there would be no Polish speakers but they would be in the minority. If I were to take a guess I would say the majority language would be Turkish but it could also be Arabic or English. As Auguste Comte put it, Foxy, demography is destiny. Posted by stevenlmeyer, Thursday, 21 May 2009 8:16:37 PM
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wow a quote from der spiegal[the mirror]
well lets se the reflection from the other side? with a search on google [for some more reflection] http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=gd&q=was+the+holocaust+a+fraud&hl=en-GB&rls=MEDA,MEDA:2008-36,MEDA:en-GB right now select which quote ok the redcross one seems best ok now for a catchy heading im of course not making any point just making sure people never are allowed to forget what of the 25 million xtians murded by the zionist bolchovics...what[never heard of that one?..funny that lets see http://www.jewwatch.com/ http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-genocide-folder.htm http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-genocide-USSRchristians.html wonder why the natzies hated jews http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-genocide-german-freedman.html how about the jewish genocide of arminians? http://www.jewishracism.com/JewishGenocide.pdf jewish hatred of gentiles? http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-genocide-gentilehate.html or how about the 100,000 radiated children[to fix ringworm] http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-genocide-ringworm-children.html or maybe the palistein genocide http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-genocide-palestinian.html or if were talking about hisry how about the jews killing xtians[641.ad] http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-genocide-jerusalemchristians641ad.html mate all racists have murderors funny[sadly there is allways an excuse to murder shortly the world will hear about a premptive attack on iran getting in early are we? i suspect your post might be the pre-[e]-ration stage..for the planned unleashing of the next holow-cost,..by attacking iran[from the nice new bases in iraq]..planned for early june,reportedly..to bring on the jewish messiah[...lol again] anyhow we can only hope [eh?] people sadly have a short memory[thus keep doing the same stuff [expecting a different result...lol you do know god made goys TOO ...right that being gods people means;..respecting god by loving neighbour? he/who serves death ..cannot claim to be supporting the life GIVER thus clearly is serving the life taker... mate all land belongs to god the messiah said...by their deeds will we know them..[sadly he never said who them would be]... all im saying has war ever brought peace? Posted by one under god, Thursday, 21 May 2009 8:26:07 PM
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Dear Steven,
It wasn't the German magazine that posted this horrific account on your thread. It was you and you still haven't answered my question - what was your point? What does it have to do with changing cultures, languages, et cetera? Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 21 May 2009 9:23:07 PM
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Dear Foxy,
Forgive me. I can’t work out what you mean, above. Too verbose and entirely no handle on history. let's fly ‘on instruments’ towards the thread. Clearly history attests that anti-semitism and any other sort of hate against religion, race, etc. (The UNHCR covers it reasonably well) has always been perpetrated for perceived gain. Those perceiving such gain, whether wealth, land or resources, were usually able to convince and exploit some 'set' or 'sub-set’ towards political activism that should, at the time, have been recognised for what it was – either desperation or sheer exploitation and adventurism. History attests that there has always been finance available for such adventurism. Now, if this topic is about the holocaust perpetrated by Nazi Germany then the historical record proves beyond doubt that it was infinitely more than some Pan-European distemper. It is a moot point whether the exercise was to rob an entire international community of their assets or whether that was simply a pretext in order to focus hatred against the victims. For some reason – probably innate skills – good networking - the fact of the Diaspora – the Jewish people were well enough positioned/dispersed to raise their valid claims before the, then, emerging United Nations. While the focus of historical accounts surrounds apparent Nazi (I can’t call it German) detriment caused several, racial, religious, political groups under their hegemony they had some fair support (Both overt and covert) from most of the rest of the world. For instance - Most don’t realize that until he was assassinated well into the war, that H.Himmler’s 2IC, Heydrich, was head of INTERPOL. Now since I only have about 100 words left I must ask if there’s part of this you don’t understand? Basically, I’m saying the Jewish people copped it through history and again from every angle during WW11. What happened was completely unjustified, caused agony and death for millions – such agony and death that continues in other scenarios across this planet, up ‘til this day. Posted by A NON FARMER, Thursday, 21 May 2009 9:55:28 PM
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http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,625824,00.html
QUOTES:
"Experts such as Dieter Pohl of the German Institute for Contemporary History estimate that more than 200,000 non-Germans -- about as many as Germans and Austrians -- "prepared, carried out and assisted in acts of murder." And often they were every bit as cold-blooded as Hitler's henchmen.
"Just for example, on June 27, 1941, a colonel in the staff of the Germany's Northern Army Group in the Lithuanian city of Kaunas passed a petrol station surrounded by a crowd of people. There were shouts of bravo and clapping, mothers raised their children to give them a better view. The officer stepped closer and later wrote down what he had seen. "On the concrete courtyard there was blonde man aged around 25, of medium height, who was taking a rest and supporting himself on a wooden club which was as thick as an arm and went up to his chest. At his feet lay 15, 20 people who were dead or dying. Water poured from a hose and washed the blood into a drain."
"The soldier continued: "Just a few paces behind this man stood around 20 men who -- guarded by several armed civilians -- awaited their gruesome execution in silent submission. Beckoned with a curt wave, the next one stepped up silently and was (…) beaten to death with the wooden club, and every blow met with enthusiastic cheers from the audience."
"When all lay dead on the ground, the blonde murderer climbed on the heap of corpses and played the accordion. His audience sang the Lithuanian anthem as if the orgy of murder had been a national ceremony."
END QUOTES
In the end does it matter? Within three generations most European nations will have ceased to exist as cultural entities. Who is going to be speaking Polish, Croatian or Russian in 2100