I've got a wedding anniversary coming up
in a few weeks time. And I thought that
I'd introduce the topic of marriage as
a discussion on OLO. I'd be interested
to find out how others feel about their decision
to marry, How important was getting married
to them? - and whether they would marry
again - given a choice today? How many are
happily married/or not, and the reasons they
feel their marriages are successful/or not.

Your thoughts please.

I'll kick this off, though somewhat facetiously!

I don't know who said this or IF 'they' even said it. I'm saying it.

Marriage is a fine institution. I'm simply not prepared to live out my life in an institution.

Good luck to those of you who do want to.

Foxy love,

The question really depends on your definition of marriage as the customs,cultures are all different.
If you are refering to living together long term V the formalisation then emphasis changes again.

My view is every one to their own.

Happiness is in the eye of the beholder and isn't alway the prominant reason to getting or staying married. Therefore the question is unanswerable for me personally.

As for marrying again unlikely communication/acceptance are the issues and the inhibitors for me, not disagreements etc.

unless you're offering then I'd need to think a bit ;-)

"Marriage" itself isn't the problem. It is the stigma attached to dissolving one. If there isn't any stigma, of course, there would be even less rationale for people making vows of eternal two-ness.

We already have rules that allow proper financial consideration when a partnership breaks up after a sensible period of time, so that isn't much of a concern.

Do people, I wonder, take their partnership responibilities less seriously if they haven't participated in a formalized ritual?

I don't treat non-married couples any differently to married couples, nor do I see non-married couples treating each other differently.

If it hadn't been invented, would we actually miss it?

I suspect that religion comes into it somewhere.

I'm married and happy, if I had to do it all over again I would still get married.

Marriage is hard but nothing worth doing is ever easy. The benefits of marriage and having children outweigh the initial fear that comes with marriage.

Marriage truly helps me to mature, be patient, and live with real purpose in life.

There are hidden rules to having a successful marriage and when they are not followed all hell breaks loose.
Being truthful to each other and keeping in mind that you are both on the same side is a must in a successful marriage.
When partners find themselves competing with each other they must remember that in any argument their must be a winner and a loser and if they truly love each other they would not want their partner to feel like a loser.

Married, Happy.

Well, Hubby is a very reasonable person who always tries to explain his point of view in a calm and pleasant manner. He has endless patience and the heart of a saint.

Drives me bloody insane.

Well I chose my bride almost 24 years ago and I must say that despite a few 'ups and downs' we have a great relationship, still love each other and could not imagine life apart.

I adore my wife and often consider myself as very lucky, although it has taken some hard work at time, from both sides.

As for being married, well, each to their own, but I wanted my kids to have a mother and father that were married.

Again, it's all about choices.

Bring on the next 20 odd years I say!

Is Marriage Necessary?
The primary necessity of marriage is to provide a stable environment for raising children.
Arguably, in a society which aborts a significant percentage of its children and then institutionalises the majority of the survivors immediately after their birth so that their mothers can work in order to consume more then the wellbeing of children no longer has any real meaning and hence marriage is largely redundant.
SSM will be the final nail in the coffin, effectively rendering marriage meaningless.

Dear Ginxy,

Fair enough. Many people see marriage as an
"institution."

Dear Examinator,

You big chicken you. Such glib answers.
Darn!

Dear Pericles,

I'd say religion does play a big part - definitely.

Dear JAD,

The philosopher Kahlil Gibran once wrote about
marriage: "Stand together, yet not too near together.
For the pillars of the temple stand apart."
As you point out - that's not easy for some people
to buy because, for some - there's always got to be
a boss.

For me a healthy relationship is when your partner
is working alongside you.

Do I think marriage is necessary? It's
a personal choice. I can understand
that some people desperately want to get married -
(my nieces do),
there's an innate part in some of us that needs ritual
and ceremony. I'm happy that I did. But through my
experience I've come to understand that although
the wedding day - is beautiful - it's what comes
after it that really matters. And unless you're
prepared to work at the relationship - you're not
going to be happy.

cont'd

Dear Jewely,

I know how you feel - mine's exactly
the same!

Dear Rehctub,

Lucky man!

Dear KMB,

It's important to remember that we're born
alone and we die alone.
Whoever we choose to share our life with - is
just someone we choose to share our life with.
None of us is perfect. We all make mistakes.

im glad your happy[so you neednt read further]

the marrage agreement is formerly registered with govt..[for the reason that we are wards of the stae[..legally speaking], the act of registration creates a serf/master legal status[that gives govt the right to interfere in your marrage[and or eventual divorce

churches sold out to the state for tax egsemption,thus concicrate the ritual that rightly should be between two people swearing before god of their ongoing love and support for[with]..to each other

there is a lot more legal stuff we submit under in formalising what should be a sacred trust between two people in love[sadly we form a trust with the articles of state]

but you dont want to be hearing of that legal cccrap trap, so i will be joyfull for you..[in your ignorance of the state machinations into the affairs of the heart]

Dear Foxy, Nothing like the shared pain of spending ones life with a reasonable person. Soon as he says something like "I think your point is valid" I am seriouly tempted to embrace all kinds of violence.

But on marriage. I signed a contract and took a vow and consider it a moral obligation. I will never be accused of being a vow breaker while sane or not under threat of violence.

I am not religeous and have little respect for most laws. But to be me and live with me I will never intentionally break a promise/vow/contract with another human.

But along with for richer and poorer, sickness and in health there was never to my recollection "put up with saintliness".

I kind of go along with Examintor here.

But then again, I have always thought that I am that kind of person who would always fail a lie detector test: to me there are just too many clauses and exemptions and circumstances ever to be able to give a straight Yes or No answer.

So, firstly...Necessary for What? For the functioning of Society? Then again..what kind of a society? Or necessary perhaps for ones own positioning in society? For one's own happiness or peace of mind? That would of course, depend on a host of other factors too. Just couldn't answer.

However, on a personal level...I will certainly never get married again. Not only is it not necessary for me - for my happiness or to feel complete or to ward off lonliness - its actually proved (twice) to be downright bad for me.

Not casting any blame around: I guess I am just a bad 'chooser'. So, gawd, having proved that point in spades, I feel it actually would be quite stupid of me to do it again! Also, I have never been as lonely as I was when I was married.

I absolutely adore being single. Having a guy in my life is wonderful too, but at the odd times when there isn't one I am every bit as happy.

If people want God's blessing on their relationship then they will get married. If they want to live in sin then they can expect the consequences. Marriage was God's idea and not man's. I doubt whether we would be that smart. Marriage gives children the security they need to grow up knowing that dad and mum are committed to each other and not just having a fling. Many celebrities make a farce of marriage. The reason many don't marry these days is because our characters are so flawed that we can't keep our word for 2 weeks let alone a lifetime. For me next to giving my life to Christ my marriage is the next best thing. I am glad that my wife agrees.

Tried it once - didn't like it and now that we're older, some of my long term married friends say their promise of "till death do us part" is an endurance test - crims don't get that long for murder, they reckon.

"Hello Carol," I say. "How's Doug?" "Still breathin'" says Carol. "Hello Valerie," I say. "How's Norman?" "Ooohhh Proto" says Valerie - "I think my inheritance is drawing nearer."

Nah.......they're only kidding I think but I delight in being a free spirit!

If people want God's blessing on their relationship then they will get married. If they want to live in sin then they can expect the consequences. Marriage was God's idea and not man's.

Says who!

So was incest also gods blessing. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the whole thing start (in your world) from just Adam and Eve, which would mean that bothers ans sisters of these two had a wako time to create the rest of the population.

We live in a free country and you can do and beleive what ever you like, but please don't ram it down my throat.

The history of marriage, in the western world, is overwhelmingly characterised by the subjugation of women and children by men!

Foxy,

Obviously marriage isn't necessary, because a lot of people have no trouble getting through life without being married.

That logical and very "male" response out of the way, I have been married most of my life. There have been ups and downs, but I suspect it will be death us do part. Looking back on how things have gone so far, I don't think life would have been better unmarried.

mikk: "The history of marriage, in the western world, is overwhelmingly characterised by the subjugation of women and children by men!"

Weird. Every household I have seen is run by the woman. I can't think of a single exception. As a boss of any enterprise will tell you, the price for being in charge is doing more work that any of their charges. For all boss's I have met though, this is a price they happily pay for freedom they get by running the show.

rehctub

'We live in a free country and you can do and beleive what ever you like, but please don't ram it down my throat.'

I see the tolerant supposedly correcting the intolerant. Simply stating an opinion on OLO is mot ramming it down your throat. You are free as everyone else is to accept, ignore or reject God's instructions. You do however display much intolerance in trying to silence others from stating a view. It does seem ironic though that you chose to do something you obviously don't hold in a high regard.

"The history of marriage, in the western world, is overwhelmingly characterised by the subjugation of women and children by men!"

Ah that would explain why you hear so many men complaining about women not being ready to commit. Why weddings are so focussed on the men. I'd oftenb wondered about that.

On the other hand it could be that marriage has been a structure with strengths and weaknesses for both genders. That both have had benefits and loss in the deal and that often it's entered into with different expections by the parties involved sometimes with great results and sometimes disasterous results.

It could be that at the heart of marraige has been the idea of both adults subjugation themselves for the sake of the children they raise. It could be that marriage has often involved great self sacrifice by both parties and that when viewed through a favourite pair of coloured glasses it may be possible to miss the sacrifices of one side.

In answer to the original question, I don't think we have all the answers yet. We suspect that marriage has taken a beating with the change in other values in society and that some of the traditional views don't work so well in that context. I don't think that means that the basic idea of a long term committment to another is invalid or worthless.

It may mean that we have to rethink what it all means when that committment is treated by many as a hold on the other rather than an act of their own committment.

R0bert

I recently came across an interesting article
in a magazine called, "Notebook," Feb. 2009.
while waiting in the doctor's office. The article
was called, "What is love actually?"

Here's a few quotes," Love and affection are
beneficial throughout life, and people know this
innately. Marriage isn't compulsory, of course,
and it's likely to occur less frequently in the
future, but it's a fair bet people will continue
to fall in love and try to find harmony together
just as they always have."

I feel that people will want to take care of themselves
by trying to find what they need to nurture their souls,
and give meaning to their lives. This might be with
another person, in which case it will help to satisfy
their need for intimacy, companionship. sexual fulfilment,
warmth and affection. Or they might find it with a group
of friends, in caring for others, in listening to or
playing music, creating works of art, enjoying sport -
whatever satisfies their emotional appetite.

The bottom line is - our relationships will only be as
satisfactory, as we are in ourselves.

Runner, this is the post I reacted to. If it was not meant to tell us that gods way was the only way, then I appologise.

Yopu said,
If people want God's blessing on their relationship then they will get married. If they want to live in sin then they can expect the consequences. Marriage was God's idea and not man's.

I will let the others decide whether I over reacted. To me, this looks like it's gods way, or you don't get married.

Then you posted this
It does seem ironic though that you chose to do something you obviously don't hold in a high regard.

Correct me if I am wrong. But it appears that in your view, that unless I follow god I should not be married.

What crap, I treasure my marriage and have worked very hard to save it at times, in fact, we both have and are a better couple for it.

Just because I don't worship some myth does not make me a worse person, just as you are no worse than me because you do. But hey, how many non believers spend their weekends visting and anoying you lot trying to convince you of a better way?

Believe what you wish, but leave me out of it mate!

Marriage patterns vary considerably around the world. In some cases they reflect differing economic realities, different child raising needs, the need to reduce conflict over women, shortages of a specific sex or simply some men having the power to hog more than their share of women.

What is interesting about our society is the rapid change in some of these factors during my lifetime. For example, it is not all that long since most women depended on their husbands to define the woman's status and for economic support. Not long ago too since friends married because they were concerned that the woman could be in trouble for openly living in sin.

In addition, couples are more alone in the sense that there is no longer a nearby relatives to supply support when things get difficult.

Lucky people like me will continue to want permenant relationships with that very special person. However, the social and economic pressures to aim for this are diminishing. My guess is that emotional support, help with raising children, sex etc. may be provided by different people and stronger networks instead of one person. For some people arrangements that involve more than two adults may become more comments. But it is all a guess.

rehctub you write

'Just because I don't worship some myth does not make me a worse person, just as you are no worse than me because you do.'

Agreed it just leaves you lost in sin like every other unbeliever. Your denial of a Creator certainly helps you live a lie.

'But hey, how many non believers spend their weekends visting and anoying you lot trying to convince you of a better way?'

You obviously believe what you like and are not backward in stating it on OLO.

I've been thinking back to my question -
Is marriage necessary? And once upon a
time I would have said yes - without
hesitation. Now, I'd have to answer
it depends on what is important to your
relationship. If it involves children -
I'd say - marriage should be considered
if only to provide a certain stability
for them. Other than that - the choice is
a personal one.

I'm glad that I made my choice to get married.
And I'm still married to the same man I fell in
love with. I don't want to
make anyone cringe - only to add being happily married
doesn't happen by accident - and it doesn't happen
instantly. For us, it took many years to achieve.
And it's still a work in progress.

I know there's a fair amount of cynicism about marriage,
especially with divorce skyrocketing. But if almost
half of all marriages break-up, that means that almost
half survive. What's more many people who divorce - do
marry again - so no doubt many will eventually find
that deeper relationship with some one else.

Yes, I believe in marriage - but I guess I have to
agree - its not for everyone.

runner
I get the impression that we are all lost in sin from your point of view - believer and non-believer.

The act of believing in a God to absolve us of that sin is nothing more than selfish and implies that we can go on sinning as much as we like as long as we maintain a belief in God. I would rather a belief in God (for those that prefer to live their life that way) at least assist in making us better people who treat others with respect and dignity. What is the point if it merely just absolves?

Foxy
I think you have it right. Marriage is not for everyone and the way we choose to live our lives is very much an individual choice. I prefer the institution of marriage if it works, it can be a great partnership and a healthy foundation for children. A bad marriage can be just as detrimental to children than a broken family situation.

It may be old fashioned but I think that two adults should be able to work through their problems to make a marriage work - but it does take two and if one partner is unwilling or unable to communicate divorce is more likely.

There are probably many people who should not marry and many who for many reasons don't want to marry, just the same as there are many who we might hope don't have children but they do nevertheless

NO! MARRIAGE IS NOT NECESSARY!
What is mariage? The love, the customs, (mainly religious) and the legal responsibilities and state? benefits from the mariage.
The love consists from many elements as sex, respect, trust, common dreams, values, children etc. all these elements except from the children can change, and the love as sourse from happines can be transformed to opposite, as sourse from suffering, and pain.
WE DO NOT NEED MARIAGE FOR THE LOVE.
We love our children and AND WE SHOULD LOVE AND CARE THEM maried or divorced, maried or as single mother or father.
As atheist I do not understand the religious stories and their role about the mariage. FOR ATHEISTS DO NOT EXISTS THIS LIMIT.
About the legal responsibilities, sure we must apdate the law to reflect the new realities and be fair for men and women, mainly as fathers and mothers.
Howard changed the family law but the changes was against mothers, againats women. For example the income from overtime has not estimated for the child support, the extra work is for him/her self BUT the income from overtime for the parent who cares the child/children has estimated from the social security!
Mainly women care the children, they are the victims from howard;s family law. Changes needed for the tax etc
The legal system about families and singles SHOULD change to reflect the new realities and not victimize the single persons. YES THERE IS A PRESS TO PEOPLE FOR MARRIAGE
It is time to change this unfair, stupid system!
MARRIAGE IS NOT NECESSARY!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

R0bert, What do ask me? Only Australia and USA do not give paid maternity leave. You can find everything you want in all these countries poor or rich, developed or undeveloped, with respect to human rights or not, with higher or lower standars NO ONE COUNTRY THOUGHT FOR A MOMENT TO REDUCE THE MATERNITY, PATERNITY OR PARENTAL LEAVE, ONLY AUSTRALIANS UNDERESTIMATE PARENTS ESSENCIAL RIGHTS!

Pericles what you want to know? I work 6 days per week, hard work, poor english, no time for analysis but I know, parents who take paternity leave are closer to their children, that children with love from both parents are better students, happier people, that couples with parental leave divorce less, that women who have the support of their husband for their children, are hhappier, not only do not divorce but they have a better carier in the job etc.
NIOU! NIOU! ON THE ROOF, WHAT IS IT? AN ELEPHANT!

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

Oh come on.
Until recently a woman was the property of her husband. Women got mail addressed to Mrs <husbands full name>. The marriage vows were "honour and OBEY". Rape in marriage was the norm. "Just lie back and think of England" anyone? Domestic violence is still prevalent and was endemic not too long ago. Brutal violence was (and sometimes still is) meted out to children in the name of "discipline". Fathers/husbands were, and in many cases still expect to be total lords and masters over their own homes and families. Women still do most of the housework and child raising. Men do very little. Wives cook for men, clean up after them, shop for them, make sure they have clean clothes and also organise most social events for the family.

By the way is this only "western' marriages or are all marriages ok? What about plural mariage as practiced by some of the more backward in the states and some of the "traditional" areas of the middle east? Are harems ok? What about muslim or jewish marriages? Are gay marriages real ones?

Not to mention how seriously do we take marriage anyway. I submit the divorce figures to show just how serious we take it. Not very is my conclusion. Especially when you think of the heartache and damage divorce causes. The religious among us would say that divorce shouldnt be allowed and thus bring even more horrors upon married people. Staying together just because youre married is bound to be a disaster. I wonder why god cant see that.

Some marriages are happy and work but overall it is just a system used by the ruling class (who usually marry their cousins lol) to keep the population under control, give the working man slave a few slaves of his own and to cheaply provide well disciplined children who will grow up to be the next generation of compliant, submissive drones ready to work for and obey their masters.

Sorry FOXY, I had many windows opened on my computer and I send a text to your thread (about paid maternity leave) instead for the Paid parental leave punt.
Believe me I am not a troll! simple I did an honest mistake!
Antonis

Marriage is a statement of intent.
That the union is not just one of "This will do for now".
It means our intent is to grow old together and we will be there to
see our grandchildren.

I think marriage is a wonderful union if it is between the right people. I married my childhood sweetheart. In a couple of months we have been married 20 years - we have known each other for over 30 years. We have 4 beautiful children.

I have no regrets, our marriage has been a wonderful experience and a a great union and I am looking forward to growing old with my man. Maybe I am lucky but I am married to the most wonderful man who is a kind and helpful husband and also a great father to our children.

runner,
You say, Agreed it just leaves you lost in sin like every other unbeliever. Your denial of a Creator certainly helps you live a lie.

What ever floats your boat mate. But until there is some concrete evidence, like, remains that have no navel, then I am affraid I will continue to follow the theory of evolution. I think there is just to much evidence to support this theory. But hey, that's my opinion and you can beleve what you like.

Then,
You obviously believe what you like and are not backward in stating it on OLO.
Well, you're not to bad yourself, hey!

Now, back to marriage.
I thought I was the only lucky one, well done guys, great to see so many happily married couples.

Can I ask a couple of questions, to do with marriage.

How similar are you to your partners or did you become similar over time?

You all seem very good with debates, who in your marriages changed more over time?

I am just asking because seconds ago my hubby looks over his laptop at me, stares in to my eyes and says "you may experience a slow down as I push a lot of data across the lan".

I felt an overwhelming urge to slap him and tell him to talk like a human. But he has worked overseas a lot during our 13 years of marriage.

Would I have understood this statement if he had been around more? Will we become more similar over time?

Dear Jewely,

In my marriage - I guess to be honest - it's me
who's had to change over the years more than my
husband. When we first married - he wanted to go
overseas to get work experience - I didn't want to
go - but I went. (And didn't regret it). When we came
back from overseas - we lived with his parents -
which was difficult - because his father was very
patriarchal. I learned to deal with the problems.
And the list goes on. However, I found that denying
my real feelings and fears wasn't working very well.
So, I had to speak out. We now have something more
deeper and fulfilling - but it wasn't easy, and took
some time to sort out. I think being honest is important
in any relationship. At least it helped me in mine.

cont'd

I forgot to add Jewely, my husband and I
are not similar at all. As a matter of fact
I'd say we're opposites in many respects -
but perhaps that's where the attraction lies.
He's always been a bit of a "player," and very
attractive to women - which keeps me on my toes,
so to speak.

Jewely, I think that if you want your husband to change to be more like you then you are going to run into problems. One thing I learned early on is that you only have the ability to change yourself.

Having a sense of humor is essential in a marriage. I can think of so many ways I could have replied to what your husband said that have nothing to do with computers and that could have been a good laugh.

You have to respect and accept that people are different if you want similar respect and acceptance in return.

I love the fact that my husband and I are so different. I would hate it if we were both the same. Being different gives you space and in a marriage you need space - as really you do not become one – you remain two completely different people with different likes, dislikes and moods.

Couples who do not plan to have children don’t really need to be married I don’t think.
They can basically please themselves if they want to live together or apart and with the new de-facto legal laws regarding property having recently been upgraded the property concerns involved with these relationships should no longer prove to be a barrier when making choices about living arrangements.

Having children is a more complicated area when debating the issue of marriage. Maybe separate dwelling houses or flats would be an even better idea in this case as long as both parents sign some sort of legally binding agreement as to their responsibilities in the equal care and financial support of the children. That way both partners can send the kids over to the other one’s house for a total break when they need some time out for a while.
Whereas living under the same roof with small children can really cause stress in a marriage and end up having the parents yelling at each other. It may actually save a lot of relationships from breaking down. As long as the legal reponsibilities are signed for, marriage is probably not necessary for the caring of children either.

Sharkfin's post really got me thinking.

I was once offered the chance of an 'open' marriage by a previous husband who really did love me, and wanted to stay married whatever the cost.

To me the idea of an open marriage was an oxymoron. We had never been unfaithful to each other but I thought - and still do -that a marriage where one or both partners take other partners - even those who claim it is 'just for sex' and doesn't alter their love for each other - is no longer a marriage. Consequently I stuck to my guns and left.

I fell into the worst nightmare of my life in my second marriage and my first partner never married again. I admit there were times then when I wondered if I had been too prissy and should have accepted the oxymoronic marriage.

Then, for most of the time I have been single there has been a person who has suggested we get together permanently - albeit in seperate domiciles as we have proved beyond all possible doubt that we could not live under the same roof. Once again, this does not seem to me to be a "real" marriage and I have preferred to stay unequivocably single.

Yet is it not possible that it is my - and many other peoples I guess - definitions of marriage that are still too narrow? Many of us agree that the definition of "the family" has changed. Yet we still define marriage itself in the same way.

Is it possible therefore that so many divorces occur due to the fact that there are still many of us who need to change our definitions of what we think of as marriage?

ps BTW, I too am am heartened and happy to read on this thread of so many people's unions which have happily endured for so long. Good stuff.

I have been busy of late so have not read all the posts on this thread.

Marriage was established as a lifelong contract between a man and a woman. Based in love for the other. It was for the mutual support and companionship of each other for the whole of life for better in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer etc. It is there to protect those that fall victim to ill health or permanent injury or disability etc.

However in todays selfish society the idea of abandoning a sick or aging partner for indulging in casual sexual infatuations has reduced bonded relations from contractual committments to mere sensual pleasures. In the areas where I live I find so many single women, abandoned by their husbands for other or younger women. The amount of unfulfiled lives and dysfunctional families I see in these fine single women's lives who are longing for emotional secure relationships convinces me that full understanding and committment to the marriage contract was not made. Our society is carrying a load of pain, guilt and hostility that is not there in mature and loving marriages.

Hi Foxy, Personally I am no good with travel. Husband spent the first year and a half of our marriage in Saudi Arabia, I joined him for 6 months and lived on an international compound, met women from all over the world so now I don’t need to travel. I discovered that no matter where you are from by 4pm you are wondering what to cook the kids for dinner.

But I am wondering if who we think is opposite truly is. People might look from outside and see us as very simliar. I do however believe I am going to always hate the computer talk. Yours is a bit of a player? Do you have a big stick?

Hey Jolanda, It occurred to me reading your post that maybe within a marriage the change often isn’t intentional. Might be a slow process that neither party thinks they are actively participating in…? In my case hubby might stop the computer talk some time after retirement when the geeks don’t have such a daily influence over him.

Morning Sharkfin, I never thought about really legal side of it, I always thought in terms of vows but yes I do get what you mean. I can say though that in all honestly over the last ten years my husband and I have had 106 children living with us (no not all at the same time, we foster kids under 5yrs). Oh and our own two who are now older teens. Never caused a problem between the grownups but then I have already stated he is annoyingly reasonable at all times.

Romany, your first partner sucked. The second was a fool. Is there a third on the horizon? I think you make a lot of sense, no one should “settle”.

Philo, I don’t think marriage was first established for those reasons but it certainly is the ideal now and I am pleased the modern concept of marriage is about the good stuff.

Could I ask one other question – why was Philo and Romany up so late?

Jewely

First off: gotta say I am enjoying your posts more and more as you continue to post.
Next, I want to say thank you. Y'know, for the rest of my life, ever since I dissolved the partnership with my first husband I have been carrying this huge guilt around with me: because I know I hurt a really nice person.

But your laconic precis: "Your first partner sucked" suddenly lifted that huge lump of useless baggage from my shoulders. You're right. In beating myself up for so long, I had forgotten the reasons behind what made the situation intolerable for me. Along with that other philosophical truism: "It takes two to tango".

Hell. No-one has ever pointed that out to me before. Hell, he was no saint and I am no sinner. Easy-peasy. Thanx.

I know it was only a throw away question but this morning I am actually having no difficulty accessing OLO so will answer anyway: I teach in a University in China. There is this thing in China that everyone gets to notice in about the first fortnight: the days are only about 5 hours long.

Well, that's how it seems anyway. Everything just seems to take so much longer to do. So my normal bed time is between 1 and 2 am just cos that's how long it takes me to get through classes, lectures, lesson plans, marking, shopping, e.mails, daily logs, class notes, exam plans, walking the dog, student advisement, cleaning, and the occasional meal...all the things my limited 5 hour day doesn't allow me to cram into it.

rehctub

I am very happy that you have a great marriage. What a blessing. It is one thing we can certainly agree on.

“…ever since I dissolved the partnership with my first husband I have been carrying this huge guilt around with me: because I know I hurt a really nice person.”

I suspect he was the one trying to hurt a nice person Romany.

What do you teach? 5 hours long, a feeling of time running out because you’re busy or the culture is fast paced? Do you like it?

“I know it was only a throw away question but…”

Ahh I am a bit freaky, people fascinate me and I like to know why they do things, what they are up to, how they feel and why they form some habits. Husband thinks I’m a bit strange that I will talk about a user on line to him like they are real ! Funny man.

My Impressions based on one week on this site:
I have spent a long time reading stuff from UOG and Peter, even printed out messages to really try and get what they were saying, I suspect they have incredibly fast typing skills. Oh and Examinator confuses me no end and so does spindoc. Yabby; I can’t even figure out if he is sane. PF seems genuine and kind of sweet and Nicky is angry about something. Butcher is bored, really bored like he’s heard and seen everything already. Ginx and Foxy I think are funny but some things I have to read twice or even three times to understand or I think I do in the end, same with Pelican. Graham I am guessing is the boss but mostly absent from his own table and busy in the kitchen. KMB, not a fan of Islam, clouds other thoughts. Pericles has a sharp edge while Col gives one a feeling of being pecked to death by a duck. Jack/ Austin – I have missed some history there with Ginx I think. Symeonakis should write a book if he hasn’t already, SciFi. Romany and Fractelle… you parent the others, put up with all sorts of naughty behavior, don’t leave Fractelle they need you!

[All opinions subject to change]

Thanks so much for all your inputs - it's
good to get such a variety of different takes
on marriage. And really heartening to see so
many positive responses.

I decided to marry because I wanted to spend the
rest of my life with my partner as well as raise
a family together. Even though he was a "player,"
he has mellowed over the years, and I couldn't ask
for a better partner. However, if he was to suggest an
"open marriage," to me - I'd leave.

Romany, I had a girlfriend whose husband suggested
an "open marriage," and she stuck by him for a while,
but the showdown came when she came home from work
early one day and found him in their bed with a woman
he'd picked up at the pub. That was the final straw
for her. She married that guy when they were both
very young and inexperienced in many ways. I often wonder
if age and experience plays a part in whether marriages
succeed or not. The same as whether if the partners differ
in race, religion, or background - do their chances of a
successful marriage drop significantly or not.

Jewely, I agree with Romany on your posts. I'm enjoying them
thoroughly - and you're a breath of fresh air to this Forum.
Keep them coming.

Jewely,
Who me confusing? That does it! YOU are now on my Xmas list! :-)
'one should never settle' Hmmmm. Or did you mean you should never settle... something lesser than your perfect soul mate?
Objectively it all depends on what you want from a marriage ( your marriage definition).

The first definition all that restlessness doesn't appeal and has and would leave me with a sense of being a stranger in a strange land.
In the second interpretation how would I know when I was being picky.

I'm unfortunately a little more objective.
I'm pleased that some people find their "soul mates" but that isn't the reality for everyone. Does that mean I should waste my life looking?

Lines in a movie says it for me. The world wise woman said "when I was young I had many good opportunities with good men but I was independent and never took proposals seriously. I was having fun and laughed to myself. Then the men didn't take me seriously and it wasn't quite so much fun and now, I'm old, alone I'm not having fun or laughing" “Don't let people tell you memories don't keep you warm".

Neither does that mean any port in a storm. To me in any intimate relationship (marriage) there are always 3 entities You, me and us. The children are a separate issue . discontentment occurs with disequilibrium.

Romany, one can love someone but not be in love. This is fine providing equilibrium is maintained (ergo contentment). So if living separately works go for it.

Me I would see it like your ex hubby's “indecent proposal” that of a use by date. Call me insecure, old fashioned anything but to me the disequilibrium would bother me.
I have always been aware of time and I have no intention of entering into a 'committed relationship' or staying there if it has a used by date ('waste of time') nor changing partners every so often... the first option, that is just sex that devalues love.

Fractelle
I know how you feel.
Maybe I wouldn't have returned had eAnt not insisted as I had left too many people concerned.
If you want time to re perspective then do so but don't forget your friends.
Look after your self lady.
Examinator.ant

Dear examinator,

Now you've got me intrigued.

Your reference to finding a "soul mate,"
not being the reality for everyone and
your statement, "Does that mean I should
waste my life looking?" totally surprised me.

You're one person that I would have imagined
will always love someone over the course of your
life. You strike me as being such a romantic.
Someone who feels things very deeply. Even your
last sentence in the previous post - the reference to
the use-by date where you say its, "just sex that devalues
love," to me indicates a great depth of feeling.

Therefore I have to conclude that I must
be misunderstanding what you're saying.

So I come across your message tonight Examinator and my husband looks up and goes

“What’s wrong?”

“Nothing, why?”

“You just muttered “oh no””...

What I (my definition) meant by “settle” (in regard to Romany) within a marriage was never settle for your partners happiness being more important than you own.

Of course for this to happen it must be clear to your partner; you must have let them know who you are. This should take place before marriage I suspect, if it is not going to reach expiry quickly.

The question of an active search for a partner, no don’t go looking but, like anything, be open to finding it.

Feelings and thoughts of “love”; they weave in and out of a marriage but are rarely a constant.

PS… For Xmas I want a cheque in the mail like my nana used to send me.

Foxy, Hi. A breath of fresh air… that’s so cool because I am here using you all shamelessly. I insist you will all make me smarter.

Hi Romany,
I felt that from your life experiences with love and marriage you had a special insight into what I was trying to say about there being a need to look at different ways of being in a marriage; especially in your statement -- < Many of us agree that the definition of the family has changed. Yet we still define marriage itself in the same way. >
I wasn’t necessarily advocating open marriage( although if it works for the couple then O.K,but I find it hard to believe that the marriage would survive) I was just suggesting that one option if the stresses of living together are too great especially in the case of young children that the marriage may actually work much better with separate dwellings or at least a small unit as a retreat for each parent on a roster basis or something.

Anyway it is always nice when someone takes the time to read your post and respond to it with thoughtful consideration.

I even enjoy when someone responds with disagreement as I love debate and the interchange of ideas. We can all learn much from each others points of view.

Dear Jewely,

You are a breath of fresh air!

As for our teaching you anything.

I for one am learning so much from you.

I love your posting style, your sense of
humour - and your ability to not take
things too seriously.

I agree with Ginxy - your style of posting -
sheer magic!

I'm so glad you've joined us on this Forum!

Jewely, I would like to say how greatly I admire you and your husband for having fostered 106 children under 5years in 10years, plus your own two.
That is an incredible acheivement and a very loving one.

Your refreshing spirit and straightforwardness does indeed shine through your posts as other posters here have noted. Hope I haven't embarrassed you too much. In that case this post will self destruct in 5minutes and you will have no memory of ever having read it

Foxy,
What are you intrigued about do tell ?

Jewely
Why oh no? I think I not so simply amplified the same points as you.
The only differences I can see is that I pointed out the reality of the situation as I have observed.
My favourite SF author was Isaac Asimov many of his fictional books followed an extended Big picture context collectively they commented on human development as he saw it.
M. Peake's “Titus Groan” series was multi layered too.

Being a total tragic I often write in the same multilevel basis, the subject and links, the philosophy and my origins. As a collection they reveal much.

This raises Three points:
-my philosophy not wish list as in “the big picture posts”.
-my history in on going tales.
-Finally the significant influences in my life.

The latter being germane to my last post (my background as a long term volunteer crisis intervention councillor.) See where its going?

One technique used is reality feedback .
This means feed back reality in a different form often help with feelings of doubt . It seems to have a cathartic effect to those who question their decisions.

My hope is that my efforts might help others to look a little deeper than appearances.
We are more than the sum of our genes likewise our statements are more than the sum of the word. As are our understanding of people more than the sum total of our conversations. See nothing perplexing about me it's all there.

If that doesn't solve insomnia nothing will. :-)

PS I send you a signed cheque, you fill in any amount and if the bank cashes it I'll go you halves :-(

Uh-oh. Remember that big weight that lifted from shoulders for about three hours? Its back.

See, I think I wasn't quite clear on the sequence of events re first husband/open marriage thing.

It was I who, after sweating and grieving and a couple of visits to a shrink, finally alerted said husband to the imminent demise of the marriage. He, as people often do, completely disregarded all the angst and agonising and immediately decided that the only reason one could possibly call quits to a marriage was if there was Someone Else.

He it was who then suggested that I go and have my little (non-existant) fling at that or any other subsequent time but that I stay married to him.

See? Paints a different picture, doesn't it? Not nasty philandering husband and wronged wife but selfish, inconsiderate wife and loving, generous husband determined to take any steps to save marriage.

Bang! Shoulders bowed once more.

Sharkfin. Yeah, I fully got what you were saying and yeah,the point is that whatever floats a particular couple's boat - be it open marriage, seperate domiciles etc.

But, in my rather simple mindset its all or nothing and - I'm not just whistling in the dark - I really am perfectly content with nothing now.

Probably because I've turned into a selfish old hag who is no longer interested in subsuming her own wishes or personality. I want to turn out the lamp when I am ready to turn out the lamp, and eat when and what I want to eat, and never have to seek anyone elses permission or put up with their negativity when I'm feeling positive.

But I would still walk barefoot over broken bottles at the drop of a hat if one of my friends - male or female - needed me to do so. (Though, actually, the reason for such a need arising somewhat stretches my imagination).

I am not sure what other social arrangements between couples intending to have children would work better than the marriage commitment. Please propose one! Even defacto (non registered relationship) relationships only work on he same social commitment to each other and become subject to the same property and custody laws etc as marriage after two years or if children are involved.

The break up of a relationship or a partner cheating in a relationship brings the same trauma and dysfunction to society even if not married.

With the rise in children in families with different fathers leaves all sorts of dysfunctional relationships, visiting rights and heritage. Even in families with different mothers the age old problem of jealousy and conflict arises, i.e. Sarah's Isaac and Hagar's Ishmael. We still bear the results of this family conflict in the Middle East 3,000 years after their original feud.

Just back after attending a couple of family weddings in a week, and one thing I noticed at the respective ceremonies is that God didn't get a mention... although both contained words of wisdom purportedly of Native American origin. One was in Melbourne, the other near Byron Bay, both professional 30s couples with children from prior de facto relationships. Go figure.

I've had a go at it a couple of times, unsuccessfully. I've been with my partner for over 7 years now, and we have a much better relationship than either of us experienced in our prior marriages. At one of the weddings we just attended, both of my ex-wives and my partner were there together - a truly frightening prospect, but it turned out wonderfully. In fact, my partner got on so well with my first wife that she half-seriously mused about what it would be like for the three of us to live together.

Needless to say, my response was rather negative. Anyway, in my experience marriage is unnecessary. However, for those who want to publicly contract themselves to another person, I agree with those who argue for a broader definition of marriage.

@Romany
You wrote "I want to turn out the lamp when I am ready to turn out the lamp, and eat when and what I want to eat, and never have to seek anyone elses permission or put up with their negativity when I'm feeling positive."
FULLY I AGREE WITH YOU!
In additional NO FRIENDS! NO GOD! NO LIMITS! (Except from MY principles, MY values, MY moral code)
FULLY INDEPENDANT FROM THE OTHERS.
Ouhhh! dangerous trojan horse!
Eviva singles!
Antonios Symeonakis
Symeonakis

Dear Sharkfin, I am a bit embarrassed. I first came online must be about 3 months ago now looking for forums with other foster parents but mostly found rather angry parents whose children had been abused while in care or parents that didn’t want their little ones in care.

I have had some huge arguments with a few who view me as a DoCS employee, not to mention I only do it for the money and apparently was abused as a child so just looking for payback.

I wasn’t as reasonable at times as I am trying to be here so there were some incredibly abusive rows that I (to be honest) quite enjoyed. Col would have thought it very base.

The praise is most welcome I was getting tired of defending myself. No actually that isn’t fair of me, I did also find many parents who were fully supportive of what I do.

And I am sure I spread those figures over different messages Sharkfin not thinking anyone would put them together. It’s weird aye, 106 children – certainly doesn’t feel like that many. Doesn’t feel like ten years either. And I am now 41, and my username everywhere is Jewely because “Julie” is always taken. I am terribly honest (although probably not great at delivering it clearly) and kind of stubborn.

I arrived in Oz three years ago from NZ where I was also fostering children and have had 26 Aussie kids in my care to date. But this also means I don’t get out much and never understood politics or the way things are done here at all.

And Thank you too Foxy, the least I can do is try to entertain a bit while I am around.

Now I wish Romany was right here in my kitchen because I would like to hold her by the shoulders and give her a good shake.

Jewely - Um-ahhh,why do you want to shake me? Mind you, its been done many times before, so I guess I am just a shakeable person.

But hey, I was amazed to read in another thread how you considered Fractell and I as "parenting". You wouldn't wanna shake yer dear ole Mum-person, now would you?

I gathered that, as I am a parenting type and female, that would make me motherly? Gad! I don't think I am anyone's idea of a mother - even those who know I am one. I have fleuro pink or purple or whatever- the -mood -takes -me hair, a heavy-duty nasal piercing, a star tat. on my neck (and another which I've mentioned before on OLO)
jingle when I walk from all the bracelets, anklets, rings, baubles and bells and I dress in such a way that even my best friends sometimes send me back to the house to change before they will be seen dead with me. (I don't mean provocative-sexy - provoctive as in I love to dress up - also as the mood takes me - which provokes everyone around me because I never consider the effect this has on the nearest and dearest. Or anyone at all, for that matter).

I am reliably informed by two young men that they grew up absolutely immune to embarrassement because of my presence in their lives. Took the heat off them, so to speak!

Dear examinator,

You ask me -

What am I intrigued about, do tell?

Ok. perhaps I didn't word it properly in my
previous post -
so I'll try again. From the few sentences of
yours I deducted that you were a person who
felt things deeply and the indication or the
inference from this was that you would indeed
be either searching for your soul mate or be
open to finding one. Yet your sentence of -
"Does that mean I should waste my life looking?"
Was a contradiction. That was what I found to be
puzzling. Make sense now?

I made a mistake and my apologies - you
obviously rather than being governed by your emotions,
prefer to rationalise things in your mind.

Fair enough.

Romany,
Whoa there Girl,
I originally sensed confusing about guilt and was responding in line to that and pointing out to Jewely that the decision must be yours to discard all of the above. And show her the realities of the her stance to you.

Directly at you and with the extra information the point is still the same.
Both sharkfin, others and I were saying in the last issue 'what ever floats your boat is right for YOU. My comment on that line were MY views if it were me and ALWAYS so. Beyond that would be presumptuous and contrary to all I believe. My opinions are mine and mine alone.

My take on the 'failed' marriage was as I stated any relationship depends on equilibrium between the three entities her, me and us.
Your first husband's variation on 'indecent proposal' (the movie) was symptomatic of a greater malaise....something(s) in the in the trine was/were in disequilibrium.
Logic dictate that it takes outside of psychosis it takes two to have a relationship and no one player can shoulder the heavy lifting.

(going out on a limb here) I would say that the 'indecent proposal' was symptomatic of his unwillingness or in ability to share the burden. That in its self implies a use by date.
In any relationship one party can only lead the other to the well but can't make them drink.
I would ask how is that your problem?

If he can't for fundamental reasons it 's counter intuitive to 'blame' him. In short it seems to me you did the only thing that is sensible other wise the relationship would have derailed its self over something else or degenerated into something less than what you need..a habit. Like I also said you can love some one but not be IN love it all depend on your expectations and more importantly NEED in a relationship. Hence the boat floating.
In short your weight of the world is at least inappropriate.
My other off line request was that I would like to ask you for some professional advice

“See? Paints a different picture, doesn't it? Not nasty philandering husband and wronged wife but selfish, inconsiderate wife and loving, generous husband determined to take any steps to save marriage.”

No I don’t see, the idiot accused you of being a vow breaker. You felt you needed to see a shrink while in this marriage. Pfft… sequence my rear end.

He said you could go off and have a fling? Mighty white of him I must say. No effort at all from him to respect himself or the marriage. He chose not to fight but to assume and then send you off like a stupid parent would with a spoilt child.

I’m wondering if instinct ended it more than thought. Oh Romany I just had one (a thought, I’ll be okay) and please don’t take it a bad way because I am terrible at words and getting a good message across.

You are smart, just take it… smart people seem to think everything is their fault because they were supposed to be the clever ones which means in charge or equal in decisions. You probably married him because of his brain? Maybe he overused his too. You were probably both so busy thinking you forgot the usual things like “jealousy”.

Also at this point (I’m guessing it was awhile ago?) what are you doing for yourself? Even if convinced of total control in this first marriage and you want to own the blame – now forgive yourself. You knew so much at the time and more now but let that go.

And look, two immune boys! I am jealous, I always wanted jewelry and stuff.. just not practical in my line of volunteering. you're right, here have a hug instead.

Jewly - yeah, see: I twigged it a while ago, girl. All this Columbus-like stuff about how you have to go off and think things through etc. is a crock...you are the smartest of us all.

You really did do me good : I very rarely mention that first experience - kinda gets lost in the face of the wife-beating, alcoholic, sociopath who was Number Two. So it was a strange experience to take it out and look at it all over again. And, on an objective level I fully get what you are saying.

Examinator - wow, and you really floored me too. Y'know mostly when women on this forum have shared anything personal all it invites is invective, abuse, criticism and accusations of dishonesty - as you will have seen from the thread Fractelle referenced.

I once had a poster who wanted me to supply names and addresses of my friends etc. who could back up my "claims" for me. (Very, very scarey.) We are just not used to being treated seriously and with respect: this is not a particularly female-friendly space.

No worries, mate: you can contact me: just contact Susan P with the initial one and ask her if she would mind forwarding it on to me: and be sure to put your name in the Title box as I NEVER open mail from anyone I don't know on that address but send them unopened into the recycle bin. Look forward to hearing from you.And thank you.Both of you.

Romany, I think I respect you because you have dissented from the accepted doctrine and besides, I don’t want to name names, but the least I can say about marriage is that I’m suspicious.

Marriage of course is not for sissies but then again perhaps it is, for most married people who are unhappy, are also terrified of going it alone.

I was once married to a well-to-do Sydney high flyer and we lived in splendour on the North Shore in a house tucked away in an acre and a quarter of landscaped garden and oh boy was I miserable. Many moons ago, I packed the kids up and left. I sought no settlement or maintenance and none was offered. Anyway it would have been blood money in my opinion. The dump I purchased in the “Bronx” cost me less than my recent tooth implant.

I chose not to remarry or to take a live-in partner because one of my resolutions was not to give my children a stepfather – I had been a stepmother and I’d also had a stepfather.

Our lives since leaving Sydney have been funny, colourful and rewarding and the children fondly reminisce about the tin-lined dump in which they were raised.

There was no conflict between their parents since the father abandoned them once he realised I was not returning to continue witnessing his drunken vaudeville shows.

The down side to going it alone for a young woman with children is that society presumes you are alone from necessity – not choice

Insecure married women see single women as predatory man-eaters. One woman comes to mind whom I encountered at various functions who was so cruel that I had to quietly assure her that I was not a threat because her husband was as ugly as mud.

Against the so-called odds society burdens us with, my children are happily married to loving spouses. I am blessed with good friends of both sexes and clearly no longer regarded as a "threat" and though I remain single, I have a most fortunate life.

When I started this thread I was hoping
that it would evolve into a great discussion.
It's far exceeded my expectations.

Dear Romany - I'm glad that Jewely's advice has
helped lift some of that weight off your shoulders.
I agree with you about Jewely - she's probably the
smartest of us all. And I also agree about examinator,
as well as men like CJ, Robert, Belly, Forrest,
Pericles, and quite a few others - (too many to mention
here) along with females like - Ginxy, Fractelle,
yourself, and now Jewely, all of you are what I call
"Plus," people - who make posting on this Forum so
enjoyable.

Dear Protagoras,

Not all married women see single women as predatory
man eaters. I think it stems from a certain insecurity.
Sometimes with good reason (their husband may be a
"player"). But in your case it sounds like you've got
the best of all worlds.
Great to hear!

“Bahá'í marriage is the commitment of the two parties
one to the other, and their mutual attachment of mind and
heart. Each must, however, exercise the utmost care to
become thoroughly acquainted with the character of the
other, that the binding covenant between them may be
a tie that will endure forever. Their purpose must be this:
to become loving companions and comrades and at one
with each other for time and eternity.... "The true marriage
of Bahá'ís is this, that 'husband and wife should be united
both physically and spiritually, that they may ever improve
the spiritual life of each other, and may enjoy everlasting
unity throughout all the worlds of God. This is Bahá'í marriage."


&#65288;From letter of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, March 30, 1967, Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 368&#65289;

*I agree with you about Jewely - she's probably the
smartest of us all.*

Well this thread has certainly been amusing to read and
confirms many of my previous convictions.

Women commonly have the need to get together, wherever,
and tell each other how they feel.

No matter what it is, they can rationise the whole lot
away in a jiffy.

Next they will pat each other on the back and call
that intelligence.

The OLO housewives club is alive and well!

Have fun girls :)

Who let him in? Protagy darl, I know you have a soft spot for stuff that lives in mud but c’mon, the movie is about to start, and he’s a freaky little bugger at the best of times always poppin’ in an out saying weird shet to us all. Hey Romany grab us a cold one out the escky would ya luv?

I’s gonna tell ya ‘bout last night after the bar closed, me and Romany got completely sh!tfaced let me tell you. Then we’re out side on our arses singin’ funniest friggin song about blokes you’d ever heard, wish I could damn remember it now… but anyways.. . Hey Foxy move your skinny arse out the way, I like this add.

Yeh but there was more right… Ginx walks past right mumbling summit about errors an crap and I go hey Ginx how’s it hanging and go on Ginx tell em what you said, nah c’mon, oh alright then I’ll tell it, she goes Jewely you are a sod, just like that, outta the freeken blue I swear, she was fair yellin’ an all – been round that new swish club at the corner…she got a shock from the look on my face cause straight after yelling at me she just about fair wees herself right there in the street. Well I picked me self up and closed me mouth then opened it again and I fair told her sod is as sod does and bugger me if she started laughing at me again! Gawd you’re a fair worry to a girl you are Ginx.

Yabby if you’re just gonna stand their glaring at us can ya make yaself useful, like go do a fry up or summit I’m sure I spotted some eggs in the fridge, there’s a good fella.

Bejeesus Fractelle go watch him incase he makes a mess in there and Proggy you get rid of the dude. Ring Rehctub and tell him t’cum pick the dude up and tak'em out hunting or killing or wateva it is they like doin when not chopping things up.

Dear Yabby,

Why must you always get to a point
in your posts where you become a
demolition expert and try to blow up
other people's self-esteem - especially
women?

What creates this weakness in you -I'm
still trying to figure out. Is it your ego
that's so fragile that you aren't capable
of dealing with women on an equal footing?

You're welcome to contribute on the subject of
this thread - but next time try to actually
say something on the topic.

Foxy
You are right I am passionate about almost everything I do one way or the other.
Including the soul mate issues. There comes a time when one needs to be objective about the circumstances in which we find our selves. Those that find and marry soul mates are an extremely lucky especially in this high expectation culture.
The problem to crisis counselors face that movies, books, dating agencies etc. extol the ideal as being everybody's right and always attainable. It all depends on your expectations.
Figures from the 60's show that most marriages were between people who live in the same localities + or – four suburbs (hence the partners were of similar background expectations etc.) I think you can extrapolate from there.

The reality is that some people marry in haste and repent at leisure. In the final analysis one needs to be sure of what one wants from a marriage and therefore are we prepared to put in the requisite effort.
Some people who marry do so for the wrong reasons but are happy anyway.

One must also remember your needs and their needs need to be accomodatable if disaster is to be avoided. This include accepting the person as they are not hoping you can change some flaws. They may change but banking on it is particularly risky i.e. the number of unhappy wives who marry a wayward male and then spend their years lonely I've spoken to would fill a book. Likewise males who marry a woman because she's comfortable but causes him grief as he goes up in the company and she lags behind.

Some people and I've met some who grew/grow into their soul mateship. Contrary to much conversation for many people arranged marriages can work. Granted in our culture they may not be that successful I put that down to cultural expectation.

Given some of the natures on this site more personal information has proven to be unwise but if you contact me via my email I have no problem in telling more or answering.

Dear examinator,

Thank you for answering so openly and honestly.

I agree that finding your soul mate is one of
the hardest things in the world. I've seen many
marriages fail for some of the reasons you so
eloquently described. And my own marriage certainly
had its problems. However I was lucky. I found a
grown man who was capable of loving fully, with all
of his heart. I know it isn't always easy to keep
the flame burning. People grow comfortable with
each other, or they become creatures of habit.
And they aren't always in tune with their partners.

There is nothing more unpleasant for me than to see
a man stripped of his power. I've watched it happen
in my own home growing up. I learned at an early age
that it's far better to respect a man who has his own
life, his own excitement, his own passion. I never
tried to "tame the beast." I wouldn't be happy with
a man who just says, "Yes, dear." I believe in working
alongside my partner - and making it work.

Fingers-crossed, so far so good.

Protagoras -

Thank you very much for trusting us all enough to share your post with us. I really think its important for people to feel they have a safe space where they can communicate: we can all learn so much from each other.

It is on behalf of women and men like you and others who tell their stories, that I get so indignant at the mean spiritedness of those few who, waving their tattered banner of Freedom of Speech, effectively shut down such voices, robbing others of that very right through ridicule, abuse and game-playing.

As for me dissenting from accepted doctrines? That didn't start out as a conscious decision. Because of the combination of a set of very eccentric parents and our lifestyle together I think, in retrospect, it was just a result of sheer ignorance.

Mind you, I spent years desperately and pathetically trying to "fit in".

In the context not just of marriage however, but of permanent and long-term relationships, I find it ironic that in every case it was my square peg-ness that attracted my partners in the first place. They then, with one single exception, spent the duration of the relationship trying to fit me into their round holes. And I tried - especially so in the case of both marriages - very, very hard to sqash myself in.

I guess that's why I am so content now. I finally realised I can't be something I'm not and, as long as I stay single, I don't have to try to second-guess what anyone elses ideas of what I should be are, nor to feel inadequate because I'm not it.

Marriage is great fun, if you have the right mate. It can be a great pain if you dont, but it is probably neccessary for the healthy upbringing of children. In my Church they have a program for young irresponsible men, who have never had a male role model,to show them how to be a man. Men are born male, but grow to be men.

I am reliably informed that girls also thrive better when they have a male around to show them what to expect in a mate. It is so sad when they are short changed, by bad choices on their mothers behalf. I think love is probably the greatest glue in a relationship, and if love is present, marriage in fact if not law, is effected.

If there are no children, it can still be a boon and often is, but it is almost a neccessary for a good childhood, provided both parents behave decently to each other and the kids themselves.

Have to agree Peter. The problem is not the committment of one to another in marriage that is at fault. It is the attitudes and poor behaviour of one or both that destroys relationships. This relationship problem occurrs even without a marriage committment.

I have two daughters; the eldest and her husband did the six weeks pre-marriage course with the Anglican Church so had a better understanding of what that commitment meant. Though they are volitile people they love and are committed to each other. My youngest went into a relationship (no marriage) through sexual attraction and once the real persons were known it all fell apart. He was a playboy.

*What creates this weakness in you *

Oops Foxy, there was silly me, being rational and logical
once again. Its a shocking habit, I know.

I have long ago learned to laugh at the foibles of our
human nature, its a constant amusement.

Clearly some of you with delicate little egos have
a problem with that.

Perhaps when you get a bit older, you will learn to
take yourself a bit less seriously. It makes for
far more contented living, I assure you.

I believe that that the key to all this
is that one person may do all they can to
keep their relationship as healthy as can
be, but it's not enough. Your partner has to
be working alongside you. If they're not -
it's not going to work.

You can make a promise to be there forever.
But a promise to be there fully for as long
as you're there is even better.

Anyway - whatever works for you.

This has been an interesting thread
and I'd like to Thank everyone for their input.
I've got nothing more that I can add.
Again, Thanks for sharing your thoughts on
this topic - and I wish you all every possible
happiness along your chosen life's path.

Take care.

Romany: “ yeah, see: I twigged it a while ago, girl. All this Columbus-like stuff about how you have to go off and think things through etc. is a crock...you are the smartest of us all.”

I was going to go hahaha yes you caught me I am the golden child of mensa international – I don’t know what “colombus-like” refers to and neither does google or I would have fully faked you out. I like thinking, I always end up inventing weird products though and not new thoughts.

“You really did do me good : I very rarely mention that first experience - kinda gets lost in the face of the wife-beating, alcoholic, sociopath who was Number Two. So it was a strange experience to take it out and look at it all over again. And, on an objective level I fully get what you are saying.”

Doing good is cool. I wish I was around for your second marriage, now those types are right up my alley – or at least I know what to do about them in a dark one.

Thank you Foxy, can’t say I had stared my marriage in the face for a long time. It looked back and smiled.