Okay I might need some slapping but can someone please tell me why Ahmadinejad is so terribly out of step when he puts forward the proposition that Israel a racist regime?

Why shouldn't their actions come under scrutiny at a forum on racism like the one being conducted in Geneva?

If the South Africa of old was still in full flight would we have expected no mention be made of them either at such a gathering?

Perhaps recent doses of Joe Helper and Joe Sacco may have clouded things a little for me but to ignore the racist aspects of the Israeli occupation and the colonialistic methods used in achieving a Jewish state is not something I feel I could permit myself to do.

My father-in-law, a fundamentalist chrisrtian, acknowledged to me last year that he could never bring himself to criticise Israel for its actions whatever they did.

I'm not a fundamentalist christian.

Dear csteele,

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad , Iran's President, was more than
just "out of step," in his vitriolic speech at the
UN Racism Conference in Geneva.

His behaviour was most inappropriate.
As The Guardian (UK) tabloid points out, the Conference
"was billed as a demonstration of international
solidarity behind sentiments everyone could agree on,
such as tolerance, understanding, and respect."

Iran's President used the platform, "to accuse, divide,
and incite." He questioned the reality of the Holocaust,
accused Israel of genocide, and spoke of a wide-ranging
Zionist conspiracy. As a guest speaker and a foreign
dignitary at a Conference that was meant to unite people,
he went about deliberately doing the opposite.

He simply should have known better.

He didn't win any sympathy, people walked out on him.

Rightly so.

foxey<<Iran's President used the platform,"to accuse, divide,
and incite."He questioned the reality of the Holocaust,..>>

mate here is the link TRANSCRIPT of his words..PLEASE POIINT OUT WHERE HE SAID THIS?
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2009/04/21/full-text-of-president-ahmadinejads-remarks-at-un-conference-on-racism/

Over the last centuries,humanity has gone through tremendous suffering and pain...In the middle ages,thinkers and scientists were sentenced to death...It was then followed by a period of slavery and slave trade,when innocent people in millions were captivated and separated from their families and loved ones,..to be taken to Europe and America under worse conditions;the dark period that also experienced occupations,lootings,and massacres of innocent people.

Many years passed by before nations rose up and fought for their liberty and freedom,and they paid a high price...They lost millions of lives to expel the occupiers and proclaim their independence.

However,it did not take long that the coercive powers imposed two wars in Europe which also plagued a part of Asia and Africa.Those horrific wars claimed about 100 million lives and left behind massive devastation...Had lessons been learned from the occupations,horrors, and crimes of those wars,there would have been a ray of hope for the future.

The victorious powers called themselves the conquerors of the world while ignoring or downtreading the rights of other nations by the imposition of oppressive laws and international arrangements.

Ladies and gentlemen,let us take a look at the U.N. Security Council, which is one of the legacies of World War II and World War I.What was the logic behind their granting themselves the veto rights?How can such a logic comply with humanitarian or spiritual values?Could it be in conformity with the recognized principles of justice,equality before law,love,and human dignity?

[Applause]Or rather,with discrimination,injustice,violation of human rights,or humiliation of the majority of nations and countries?

That Council is the highest decision-making world body for safeguarding the international peace and security...How can we expect the realization of justice and peace when discrimination is legalized and the origin of law is dominated by coercion and force rather than by justice and the right?

Coercion and arrogance is the origin of oppression and wars.Although today many proponents of racism condemn racial discrimination in their words and in their slogans,..a number of powerful countries have been authorized to decide for other nations based on their own interests and at their own discretions.And they can easily ridicule and violate all laws and humanitarian values,as they have done so.

Following World War II,they resorted to military aggression to make an entire nation homeless on the pretext of Jewish sufferings.And they sent migrants from Europe,the United States,and other parts of the world in order to establish a totally racist government in the occupied Palestine…[Delegates_walk_out]And in fact in compensation for the dire consequences of racism in Europe…Okay, please.Thank you.

And in fact in compensation for the dire consequences of racism in Europe,they helped bring to power the most cruel and repressive, racist regime in Palestine.[Applause]

The Security Council helped stabilize this occupation regime and supported it in the past 60 years, giving them a free hand to continue their crimes.

It is all the more regrettable that a number of Western governments and the United States have committed themselves to defend those racist perpetrators of genocide whilst the awakened conscience and free minded people of the world condemn aggression,brutalities and bombardments of civilians in Gaza.

They have always been supportive or silent against their crimes.And before that,they have always been silent with regard to their crimes.

Distinguished delegates,ladies and gentlemen,what are the root causes of U.S. attacks against Iraq or invasion of Afghanistan?[Shouts from audience]

What are the root causes of U.S. attacks against Iraq invasion of Afghanistan? Was the motive behind the invasion of Iraq anything other than the arrogance of the then U.S. administration and the mounting pressures on the part of the owner of wealth and power to expand their sphere of influence,seeking the interests of giant arms manufacturing companies,affecting a noble culture with thousands of years of historical background eliminating potential and practical traits of Muslim countries against the useful Zionist regime,or to control and plunder energy resources of the Iraqi people?

Why,..indeed almost a million people were killed and injured and a few more millions were displaced and became homeless.

Why,indeed the Iraqi people have suffered enormous losses amounting to hundreds of billions of dollars...And why was hundreds of billions of dollars imposed on the American people and its allies as a result of these military actions?

Wasn’t the military action against Iraq planned by the Zionists and their allies in the then U.S. administration in complicity with the arms manufacturing companies and the owner of the wealth?

The invasion of Afghanistan;restore peace,security,and economic well being in this country...The United States and its allies not only have failed to contain[?]in Afghanistan,but also the illicit cultivation of narcotics multiplied in the course of their presence.

The basic question is:What was the responsibility of the job of the then U.S. administration and its allies?

Did it represent the world?Have they been mandated by them?

Have they been authorized on behalf of the people of the world to interfere in all parts of the globe?..And of course mostly in our region aren’t these measures a clear example of egocentrism,racism, discrimination,or infringement upon the dignity and independence of nations?

Ladies and gentlemen,who are responsible for the current global economic crisis?

Where did the crisis start from?From Africa?From Asia?..Or was it first from the United States,then spreading to Europe and to their allies?

For a long time they imposed inequitable economic regulations.By their political power on the international economy they imposed a financial and a monetary system without a proper international oversight mechanism on nations and governments that played no role in the repressive trends or policies.

They have not even allowed their people to oversee of monitor their financial policies.They introduce all laws and regulations in defiance to all moral values only to protect the interests of the owners of wealth and power.

They further presented a definition of market economy and competition that denied many of the economic opportunities that could be available to other countries of the world

They even transferred their problems to others whilst the wave of crisis lashed back,plaguing their economies with thousands of billions of dollars in budget deficits.

And today,..they are injecting hundreds of billions of cash from the pockets of their own people into the failing banks companies and financial institutions making the situation more and more complicated for the economy and their people.

They are simply thinking about maintaining power and wealth.They couldn’t/care any less about the people of the world and even about their own people.

Mr. President,..ladies and gentlemen,racism is rooted in the lack of knowledge concerning the truth of human existence as the selected creature of God.

It is also the product of his deviation from the true path of human life and the obligations of mankind in the world of creation

Failing to consciously worship God,..not being able to think about the philosophy of life or the path to perfection that are the main ingredients of divine and humanitarian values,have restricted the horizon of human outlook,making transient and limited interests a yardstick for his actions.

That is why the cells of the Devil’s power took shape and expanded its realm of power by depriving others from enjoying equitable and just opportunities to development.

The result has been the making of an unbridled racism that is posing the most serious threat against the international peace and has hindered the way for building peaceful coexistence in the entire world.

Undoubtedly,racism is the symbol of ignorance which has deep roots in history.And it is indeed a sign of frustration in the development of human society.

It is therefore crucially important to trace the manifestations of racism in situations or in societies where ignorance or lack of knowledge prevails in the societies.

This increasing general awareness and understanding towards the philosophy of human existence is the principle struggle against such manifestations;..which is the key to understanding the truth that humankind centers on the creation of the universe,..and the key to a return to the spiritual and moral values,..and finally the inclination to worship God the Almighty.

more at link

OUG, thanks for that link.

I have to say it seems that Israel doth protest too much. If Ahmadinejad is such a fruitloop, why do they not engage him and show him to be that way, instead of trying to shout him down and poison the well? That sort of thing doesn't work even in a forum such as this, let alone in the wider world. I'm quite disgusted at the way in which the West has allowed itself to be led by the nose by Israel on this issue.

From where I sit, Israel is very definitely a racist regime and was founded on explicitly racist principles. Zionism has no room for gentiles of any stripe.

Pro-Zionists have justified the at-times appalling behaviour of Israel on the grounds of the Holocaust, but the holocaust would never have happened if there had been influential people in Germany prepared to stand up and engage with the hateful words of the Nazis. Instead, those people either self-interestedly joined the Party, or turned their backs, ignoring the hate. the few who were left were easily shouted or beaten down.

It seems to me that there are lots of similarities in the way Israel and pro-Zionists behave today. Any attempt to offer a reasoned critique of their position is met with howls of indignation and cries of anti-Semitism, which drives the reasonable people from the floor. The Nazis used the same tactics, only their fevered vision was Greater Germany, not Greater Israel.

Israel is a State with its days numbered, sadly. Not because of world opinion, but because with the end of the petrochemical economy, it will no longer be able to defend itself. If it wishes to avoid carnage in the future, it must make accommodations with the people around it. There is no choice, or the would-be victim State will be one in reality.

Lets put this in a little perspective.
Israel was formed as an act of racism, because no other country wanted the Jewish refugees from Europe. Jews have suffered persecution for millenia, since Roman Times, Pogroms were almost an international sport through the middle-ages. Many think, as I do, that the Jews bring it in themselves by their exclusivity and refusal to adapt, but the level and violence of the reaction to that behaviour is beyond acceptable.
Lets face the reality, there are many Arabs living within the state of Israel, and they are not legally discriminated against, even if there IS a social prejudice, so to compare that to Sth Africa is fallacious.
Who built Jerusalem? Certainly NOT the Palestinians, and they are in effect occupiers of the Jewish homeland who seized the land during the tribulations of the Jews, so they have no long-term claim to it.
Most of Israel is made up of people who, like the rest of humanity, just want to get on with their lives, but it's the Palestinians and other Arabs who keep the fight alive, and won't accept peace.
The Iraqi rant was just more Arab abuse, and had no merit at all, on any level, except that of the Arab view of the world, an extremely undesirable one to Western eyes. There's far more racism in Arab countries than just about anywhere, look at Saudi Arabia, The Emirates etc, and there it IS written into the Law!

UnderOneGod. Your comments are so long I don't read them. 1200 words for a comment is ridiculous. You could be giving me the truth about our existence but I'll never know. To me, it's spam. Just saying. I'd say it somewhere else if I could.

Anyway, Ahma-dinner-jacket goes into the conference being a whackjob, pure and simple. He's like Gibo, or BoazDavid here. I didn't read the speech so I don't know what he exactly said, but Foxy is spot on in regards to his track record.

The full text of Ahmadinejad's speech: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8010747.stm

Hi Stg,

In defence of OUG what he posted was Ahmadinejad's speech. Admittedly I initially made the same mistake. I do invite you to read it because it is instructive when held against what was reported. It would seem that quite a few of the media had not read it either.

Foxy I would support OUG's suggestion that you point our where he denied the Holocaust in the speech.

Maximillion,

I feel the perspective you have asked us to take is a western one. Polgroms were in the main a European 'sport'.

There is under Iranian law a requirement for representation of religious minorities in the parliament. From memory there is one Jewish MP and 2 Copic Christian MPs currently serving.

Under Israeli law there is no provision for interfaith nor civilian marriages. Possibly the problem we have are our attempts to tease out what is racial discrimination vs religious discrimination. I think the Israeli government is very proficient at muddying the waters and the cloak of one is used to hide the other.

I would have loved a reply to Ahmadinejad's speech highlighting the abuses in his own country because platitudes on a UN document have little clout if evident truths are not discussed.

I would like to know some specific examples of Ahmadinejad's speech that you felt had no merit because I saw kernels of truth in most of it. Naturally much of it was for public consumption at home but few politicians are blameless in that department.

I do find the man objectionable and it is not a pleasant position to be defending him but I do think some of the hyped criticism seems to reek of the same racism we should be at pains to counter.

Powerful stuff.

Whether we agree with President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or not, his thought processes are clearly visible to everyone. Here we have a clear illustration of the truth that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, with reality always in third place.

I have looked through the speech a couple of times now. It is not necessary to agree with his more polemical phrasing to grasp the inherent logic in his perspective.

We are conditioned to trying address a problem by analysing its root cause, and this is a tactic that Ahmadinejad frequently employed in his speech.

If Boaz were still contributing to this forum, we would hear endlessly about the rights that he perceives were conferred on early Israelites. From Ahmadinejad we hear his perspective on the actions of the UN some sixty years ago.

Neither attitude is going to solve any of the region's problems.

Similar stances exist in Northern Ireland. Some folk still talk about the Battle of the Boyne for heaven's sake, which happened in 1690. Only when politicians (and ex-terrorists) were able to look past this, were the problems capable of some form of positive action.

Same goes for Israel and Palestine. Just staring at each other with hatred isn't going to solve anything. Talking about what hurts can be a start.

Our generally pathetic government got one thing right when it decided not to attend the UN hate-fest. The Iran president is certainly a nasty little dwarf.

The most disconcerting thing seen on TV was the number of yahoos and savages still cheering and clapping after the Western delegates walked out.

My apologies to everyone.

I had taken the Holocaust reference from the
article in "The Guardian" (UK) tabloid that I
mentioned in my first post.

It appears that the mention of the Holocaust
was dropped from the original text in Farsi,
prepared by the Iranian Government on the
advice of UN officials. You can google -
"Ahmadinejad - Holocaust," and get the full
story from various websites, or go to:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30323549/

I hope this clarifies things for you.

However, I still stand by my initial comments.
Using a Conference based that is supposed to be a demonstration
of international solidarity behind sentiments everyone
could agree on such as, tolerance, understanding
and respect - to launch an attack on Israel was not
appropriate.

As Pericles pointed out - stirring further hatred
achieves only more division and hatred.
And, that's not what the Conference was supposed to be
about.

As usual Pericles' logic has shone through...exactly old son exactly.
Csteele also has a valid point if you look closely there are elements of both religious and racial discrimination in Israel. Some is de facto institutionalised. (See BBC special a few weeks ago on insight “in search of the life of Jesus", four corners. My daughter who lived in east Jerusalem attests to land discrimination)

In this context a nation is made up of two parts the first is its constitution/laws the second is how well those laws are obeyed/enforced.
When the police side with or don't enforce laws evenly then there is an inherent problem.
Let's not forget the politics that were played out here. Like all political speeches it holds a grain of truth but most is for domestic consumption.

The idea that if you don't agree with Israel stance you are then either Anti-Semitic or a terrorist is preposterously simplistic.
Notwithstanding none of the above doesn't excuse the excesses of Iran etc.

Max
I would suggest a bit more reading on the origins of Jerusalem and the original owners of the land. Likewise a more in-depth look at the diaspora its reasons its problems and why.
One should be careful of the Israeli spin on all this. Then consider the demographics of Israel. About 40% are “secular” (want religious/racial tolerance) and just want to get on with life most have other agendas including the 30% who describe themselves as Fundamentalist Jews and want an exclusively Jewish nation that incorporates Palestine. Hence they have a parliament in which the extreme right has disproportionate say i.e. their foreign minister.

My 2c for this thread is that akin to reading the so called Holy Books, it can be an error to take everything literally and, I do not believe that any of the parties can claim to be "Holier than Thou" all factors considered.

To play Satan's Advocate, I would remind people that when the likes of n.america supported s.africa and classified Nelson Mandela as a Terrorist, the Iranians were one of those who supported him. As for the arming of Saddam with biological WMD's. Oh dear!

The wheel turns but I can't as of yet dismiss this nagging feeling within me that as a collective humanity seems destined to repeat in principal the issues of the past over and over until we get it right.

The prez of Iran seemed to gain some mirth from all the hoo har. Mayhaps "we" can work with that.

..

As to substance, we had the ex prez of Iran on Al Jazeera in a what appeared to be a rehearsed interview this morning. To cut to the chase, and if I do not misinterpret, he appeared to affirm that the Iranian position in relation to Hezbollah and Israel was that there would be no peace as long as the Yahoodees occupied Palestinian land. Further definition was not provided.

..

Hmmm .. Bazza Obama may do well to consider that sometimes to do less is to do more. I for one would like to hear many different views in terms of solutions from here on, as currently we hear from too few of the players in this afair and thereafter, engage the Collective. Bazza could do a further expression of consumate statesmanship by seeing to it that everyone is heard.

P.S.

Heavy Metal in Islam. That's beautiful!

Examinator, I don't think you're right, full stop, I'd suggest YOU read a little more.
To dismiss opposing views as "Israeli spin" is disingenuous, I could as easily dismiss your views, but won't.
I'm no supporter of Jewish interests, and readily admit they do many provocative things, and have their own extremists, I just see no reason to deny their territorial claims on the basis of some sort of humanitarian rubbish. The Iraqi rant is a clear statement of the Arabs attitude, and until you can change that, and put a stop to their cowardly terrorism, Israel has every right to perform whatever action is necessary to protect it's citizens.

When Britain first divided the land, some for Jews and some Palestinians in 1920, there was no such thing as “Palestinian Arab people” All Muslim Arab voices protested the concept of a Palestinian nation as they considered people west of the river Jordan to be Jewish/Christian and not Islamic, even “repugnant”.

From 1920 until 1930 the Jewish-Arab conflict included bickering over the Western Wall, the 1928 Day of Atonement with British action against the Jews, the 1929 Palestine riots, the Hebron massacre of Jews and in 1930, the League of Nations Commissions’ declaration that Jews had the right to “free access to the Western Wall for the purposes of devotion at all times”.

In 1948, at the end of the British mandate and before the founding of the State of Israel, the Arab Liberation Army (ALA), lead by King Abdullah I of Jordan, launched war against the Jews in the west bank and Jerusalem. The ALA comprised troops from Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Libya. The Jordanians then occupied Jerusalem, and for 19 years refused to implement article VIII of the 1949 Armistice Agreement giving Jews access to the Wall in spite of Jerusalem being under UN administration.

As a direct consequence of the Jordanian lead ALA invasion of the UN Administered Jerusalem in 1948, 10,000 Jews and 750,000 Palestinians were displaced. The end of the 1948 war saw the formation of the “State of Israel”?

Again in 1967, in addition to Egypt, who attacked through the UN forces protecting Israel’s southern border, Jordan, with troops from Syria, Iraq, Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria joined the attack on Israel and got a sound “smacking” for their trouble.

You see the problem here? My generation has a different historical view of the Middle East and therefore different context for today’s Middle East. I can’t support Israel for not withdrawing from Gaza/West bank after the six day war, or condone the building of settlements however, the Arabs started hostilities twice and now keep it going with proxy armies and the support of Have-your-dinner-dad.

Interesting comments by *SpinDoc* though does anyone know exactly why the Arabs/Islamists were unhappy with the UN's original partitioning from their perspective?

*DavidF* has suggested that notwithstanding shared genetic heritage, that this alone won't stop the conflict as it is a "religious" conflict.

So since the formation of "Israel" till now, exactly what role do the so called "Holy Sites" play in all of this.

I ask this because assuming something of what SpinDoc says is correct, and assuming the mass mobilisations against ISrael were not purely for sport, exactly what were their motivations?

If other Arabs/Islamists have little regard for the Palestinians, and I suspect that there is quite some truth in that, then what exactly is in it for the "fundies?"

Now, there is of course the site sacred to Jews as the Old Temple, to the "Christian Crusaders" for other reasons, and for the Muslims as the place where P.Mohammed ascended.

I'm out of my field here - can anyone profer up some knowledge?

Spindoc,
I think you will find that there were in fact 2-3 organisations that were trying to establish a national identity one going back to pre WW1. They had their own local structures that were co-opted under the Ottoman empire. After WW1 they stood in their own rights and opposed the Jewish aliyot.(waves of immigration)
What they weren't was cohesive. They were factionalized and each group had different objectives and opposing class oriented power bases.

See Ch5 "the Israel- Palestine conflict, 100 years of war" By James L Gelvin Prof history UCLA

Max
Thanks for the attack I was pointing out to you that much of what you were saying read like the Israeli spin doctors. The spin part comes about when it comes to the legitimacy of their claims. I have no pragmatic reason why the Israel's shouldn't have a a “home land” but to me the end doesn't justify the means. Much of the Jewish 'nationalism' saga is spin e.g. their claim to Massada. The archelogical truth is some what different. Read the book it is balanced, objective well referenced and in essence is pragmatic in nature.
The Jews gained the territory by the same means international PR, chicanery, Bullying and cowardly terrorism techniques applied against them in WW2.
Their claim is based on their religious book that allegedly promised all the land to the Euphrates River....that includes Iran, Iraq. Given Israeli quasi apartheid attitudes of excluding the Palestinians from work in the early years. Profiteering in an early market crash.A beligerance to their expansion can you blame Arab resentment.
Humanist rubbish has nothing to do with the what I said. I am objectively suggesting to all that the case for either side is far from clear and neither side is blameless.
Israel has a better funded more ubiquitous PR machine and stronger allies. Much of what it puts out has little to do with truth. The issue of importance is how to defuse the pit of vipers fairly.

Ahmadinejad was merely echoing the words of Mohammed (peace be unto him) and the words of the holy Qur'an (2:62-65; 5:59-60; 7:166) which refers to Jews as apes and Christians as pigs.
Please show some respect for the religion of peace.

Speaking for myself, I'd rather be an ape than a pig. Can we swap with the Jews?. Do pigs have cannibalistic tendencies?. If not, they should still be sweet with the Kosher thingo.

Stg, notwithstanding the amazing "Racing and diving pigs" on at the Royal Easter Show I agree, better to be an ape I think. Although those diving pigs were pretty darn good...

I have tried to send text to forum many times withougt success I registered with a new email and I tried to sent a text with the new name but I failed. PROBABLY I BLOCKED FOR EVER!
Antonis Symeonakis
ADELAIDE

KMB,
Regarding pigs and apes - I think you'll find that the context was that Allah/God earlier turned some people into pigs and apes as punishment and that Muslims will receive their punishment on their Judgement day.

Just as the Talmud refers to non-believers as beasts, dung (and worse) and that Mormons believe that people have black skin as the result of God's eternal curse on them for the sins of their ancestors, it's a matter of how seriously you take this stuff.

Dreamon,
I’m not usually one for throwing up lots of links but I really found Jeff Halper’s (not Joe Helper as mentioned erroneously in my first post) contribution on ABC Fora instructive. He can be found here.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/fora/stories/2009/03/27/2526790.htm

Talking about pigs the other link I offer up to posters is a favourite of my daughters. It is that laconic Australian Tim Minchen’s anthem to Middle East peace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UO6YlkYNJQ&feature=related

Maximillion, just to clarify when you said “The Iraqi rant was just more Arab abuse” I’m sure you realise that Ahmadinejad is Iranian not Iraqi, neither is he an Arab not are his countrymen. Only about 3% of Iran’s population is ethnic Arab and native speakers of Arabic. The main ethnic group is of course Persian.

Leigh,
I’m sure that the savages and yahoos have done far less damage than the Houyhnhnm’s and with their bombs and their concentration camps. From Wikipedia;

“They have no religion and their sole morality is the defense of reason, and therefore they are not particularly moved by pity or a belief in the intrinsic value of life.” Brings to mind Madeline Albright‘s 500,000 Iraqi childrens deaths as being “worth it“.

“Gulliver himself, in their company, builds the sails of his skiff from "Yahoo skins."“ Images here of dentists knocking out the gold fillings from the mouths of Jewish victims.

KMB,
And Jesus referred to us as dogs now we are all even so perhaps we should all move on?

To me Foxy is so far the only one to offer up a valid reason for repudiating the speech, because it “is supposed to be a demonstration of international solidarity behind sentiments everyone could agree on such as, tolerance, understanding and respect”. I get the sense that some of the boycotting nations such as Australia, Canada, and the US with cases to answer regarding the continuing deprivations of their indigenous citizens and may well have been a little relieved not to be attending.

Pericles,

Agreed, powerful stuff indeed.

I was particularly struck with “Although today many proponents of racism condemn racial discrimination in their words and in their slogans,..a number of powerful countries have been authorized to decide for other nations based on their own interests and at their own discretions. And they can easily ridicule and violate all laws and humanitarian values,as they have done so.”

It highlights how idiotic and arrogant Rudd’s call for Ahmadinejad to be tried at the International Criminal Court for inciting genocide really is. The only reason this would have any glimmer of hope is because Iran is indeed a signatory of the Rome Statute however in 2002 the US and Israel (using identical wording) ‘unsigned’ the treaty. I would have loved to see Kissinger or Sharon or Albright asked some hard questions in such a forum but it only applies to acts after July 2002. Perhaps we might see al-Bashir or Rumsfeld instead.

I also agree that “talking about what hurts is a start” but I’m not sure that because something happened 60 years ago that it deserves to be equated with events 2000 years ago. Would we be willing to put a time limit on bringing Nazi war criminals to justice? Should Jewish families still have recourse to suing Swiss banks? Or even should England have honoured the expiration of a 99 year lease on Hong Kong? I felt Ahmadinejad was making the valid point about the Security Council's support of the excesses of Israel particularly through the US's veto power over the last 60 years

DreamOn, Check out Palestinian history and the Western Wall, heaps on Google. I’ll try a potted overview to give some context.

<< Does anyone know exactly why the Arabs/Islamists were unhappy with the UN's original partitioning from their perspective?>>

There are three suggested reasons for Arab hostility. In 1917 the population of the land we know as Palestine, the area west of the river Jordan was predominantly Christian/Judaic, there were a minority of Islamic Arabs, it was a secular society that had coexisted for centuries. But the Arabic speakers paid homage to King Abdullah of Syria and not to Jordan’s King Abdullah, which generated some animosity.

Secondly, the partition of Palestine was very different to today, there were multiple areas assigned to Jews and Palestinians, all mixed up like conclaves. The League of Nations did a woeful job of this.

Thirdly, the concept of nationhood for Jews, Christians and Palestinians West of the Jordan was a European concept and considered to be a gross interference in Arab affairs by the occupying forces, the British.

Interestingly, Palestine has been under occupation from 163 BC until 1949. The Romans, Christians, Islamic, Mamluks (Arab mercenary armies), Turkish Ottomans, British and even parts of Palestine (West bank by Jordan and Gaza by Egypt).

This history will never be untangled. It’s a bit like sending Eddie Mabo to Europe to establish Land Rights, utterly futile.

Since the Arab Liberation Armies have twice failed to wipe out the Jews and Israel with their own military, they are now attempting to do it by proxy, the PLO, Hezbollah, Hamas and a wide range of affiliated, non State military.

History shows a terrible legacy of atrocities by all sides but in my personal view, the Arab States will not permit the Palestinians to negotiate peace, they are the poor remaining “bunnies” in the front line against democratization of the Middle East. It’s not a religious conflict, its international politics.

Sadly we seem to accept the re-writing of history to suit the various vested interests at the ongoing expense and misery of the Palestinians and the Jews.

StG

chimps are apes (no tail) they are both carniverous and canibalistic.
The other apes Gorrillas both low and Highland and orangs are vegetatarians but will all murder for the same the reasons we do.

Pigs are canibalistic.

I think that pigs are considered unclean including carrion because they'll eat almost anything and their meat is prone to parasites and
bacterial infection if not killed and eatened quickly.
Some natives in PNG would never eat meat unless it was killed and cooked sortly there after.It was regarded as Taboo( evil spirits entered the dead bodies then into those who ate {the longtime dead}meat. Even the cannibal Kuka Kuka followed this belief.
With out too much mental gymnastics this could be the truth behind the pigs are unclean and seperate prep areas.ie folk learning given cultural significance.

all this talk is making me hungry
but i recall the primitives have laws against eating certain animals [because their ancestors inhabit them

i recall with jesus casting out demons for egsample, where i whole heard of swine rushed over a cliff after the demons got put into the swineherd ,mat 8;32,mark 5;31 ,luke 8;33

anyhow research confirms
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=gd&q=not+eating+your+totum&hl=en-GB&rls=MEDA,MEDA:2008-36,MEDA:en-GB

http://www.wiccantogether.com/profiles/blogs/1070680:BlogPost:380669

..totem is a animal that is affiliated with a specific clan,group, or lineage.

Additionally, certain taboos are associated with the totem animal. Not hunting,killing, or eating its meat are typical examples.

confirmed by a book extract

http://books.google.com/books?id=PbyDxabXrqgC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=not+eating+your+totum&source=bl&ots=eiPFpg8vzI&sig=h3pQNWZkIOL42rldV0YrrMPB7fY&hl=en&ei=i-zvSeG8KITW7AO958jdAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4

as well as by the bible/torah lev 11;7, deut 14;8, isa 65;4, 66;3,66;17.. hope im not casting pearl before swine mat 7;6

or do not suffer us to go into a herd of swine, mat 8;31 ,mark 5;12

or alternatly darwins deception of evolving from apes[shall get the next rebuttal[he plagerised it becomes clear just from previous respondants[what primitive tribe he steal the theory from ..lol

Ostensibly I agree with Spindoc's conclusions but by the same token I bristle at the various version of spin and historic inaccuracies that make up many of Israel's national myths.
Any potted history of the area would be remiss if it allowed the idea that the Palestinians/Arabs didn't have their own ambitions for independence before,during WW1 (against the Turks see The Broken promises made by the Brits of independence made through T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia) and the period of Mandate.
Likewise it is a gross understatement to suggest that Both the French (Syria and Lebanon) and the Brits for Jordan and Palestine were anything but brutal in their suppression of the nationalistic ideas.
During this period the Zionists ran their own brand of terrorism including the bombing of the King David Hotel and the systematic terrorist clearing of Arab villages.
During the WW2 the elements of the Jewish community helped 'control' the Arabs.
Today Israeli Arabs and other religions are treated as 2nd class citizens.

My point of highlighting this is simply to put historic perspective on some of the more outrageous/egregious omissions and lies put out by the pro Israeli PR Machine.
Seen in context this speech from Iran is not surprising in its rhetoric. To suggest that Israel is some how better is pure spin. Neither do I support the Palestinians V Israel.
Evidence suggest that the US's overt interference for its own perceived interests have caused the Arabs to indeed fight their grievances out in proxy wars. Much Like the US support for the rebels V Taliban in USSR dominated Afghanistan. Strangely the US hasn't learned from its wars Vietnam onward that might can't beat an ideal with force.
Meanwhile the average citizen are pawns on both sides captives of entrenched power structures that will destroy rather than let peace take over lest THEY lose face (power).

Ahma-dinner-jacket
Have-ya-dinner-Dad

Classics.

Reminds me of One (San) Antonio Summer Ranch.

Don't mind me - carry on.

Examinator, you’re absolutely right that there were many organizations trying to establish national identity with an equally diverse set of affiliates and sponsors.

What I wished to query are your comments << The Jews gained the territory by the same means international PR, chicanery, Bullying and cowardly terrorism techniques applied against them in WW2>>.

Looking at the partition of Palestine 1920 to May 14, 1948, the area’s assigned to Jews and Palestinians were a mixed up jumble with small areas of one community within area’s assigned to others, a recipe for trouble under any circumstances..

There were some three dozen major conflicts, including against the British, between 1922 and 1948, culminating in the 1948/49 war. However, I question your claim that “Jews gained territory (by implication, I think) that they gained Israel by these methods.

The day after the end of the British Mandate, May 14, 1948, the ALA, fronted by Jordan and King Abdullah, launched attacks on the Palestinian territory of the West Bank and Jerusalem, displacing some 10,000 Jews. The rest of the Arab armies attacked every other border. The Jews meanwhile tried to defend all borders and, to remove the enemy within, the Jews decimated the Palestinian enclaves partitioned within what is now Israel. Some 75,000 Palestinian were displaced by the Jews and the State of Israel was declared.

Since the 15th century, the occupying forces, Ottomans and British insisted on the right of access for all denominations, to the holy places in Jerusalem. The Ottomans through “Firmans” agreed with the Imams and through Major General Allenby’s declarations.

After Jordan occupied the West Bank, King Abdullah refused, for 19 years, to abide by Article VIII of the armistice agreement to continue multi-denominational access to Jerusalem.

Whilst I don’t condone the tactics from either party, the Arab States provoked both the formation of the State of Israel and the 1966 war. And they continue to provoke both directly and indirectly. We tend to focus upon the recent (Post PLO) history as it is presented by the “commentariat” and sometimes forget, or never knew what really happened

1.The boycot of the human rights conference in Geneva by USA, Australia etc WAS A HUGE MISTAKE, A BIG MOVE TO THE WRONG DIRECTION, A signal that President Obama is not ready to listen, is not ready to compromise, is not ready for STRONG INTERNATIONAL BODIES. Few more moves like this and USA will lose all the international friendship they won from Obama's election.
2. "Like it or Not, Demographics Eventually Will Change Israel From a Jewish State into a Democratic State" Washington report on Middle East Affairs.
http://www.washington-report.org/archives/June_2000/0006016.html

Accoprding to Joseph Chamie YaleGlobal, Yale University in 2050 the population of Israel will be 21 milions, 50% Jews, 50% Palestinians.
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=11554

According to a United Nations report By the year 2050, the Palestinian population will exceed 11.8 million and the Israeli 10.1 million due to natural population growth.
That means Palestinians soon can take under their own control the whole Israel, with democratic elections.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/popstudy.html

It is profound who is and must be very busy for a solution of the jews palestinian conflict.
If palestinians are smart enouph they will not sign any solytion and after 40-50 years they can elect a palestinian president and prime minister of Israel.
As you can see the risk for jews to become a small minority in the Israel is EXTREMELY BIG, even if we have the creation of two states, Israel and Palestinian states BECAUSE the arabs in Israel in 2050 will be 30% of the Israel population and not many years later they will be majority in the Israel!
Antonis Symeonakis
Adelaide

Spindoc

I've read several books from different perspectives including those my Jewish daughter gave me to read at the time when she was a believer.

I've read the 'Arab' interpretation and to be frank they could have been discussing different dimensions in time and space. You're right to point out its a convoluted mess that takes a more dedicated history buff than me to get the ultimate facts. (if ever) However I favour the book cited (if you were close handy I'd lend it to you)in the history part because it's the most objective I've read.

It isn't so hot on current issues but that is like trying to pick up mercury with tweezers.
I say this because objectively I may be influenced by this book.

In context it starts with the changes in the Russian attitude towards Jewish tolerance self determination. Through to the machinations of the Zionist movements it's factions etc.
This included the politics behind the Balfour declaration and alternative home lands etc.
It also detail each wave of immigration the politics their practices on how that the latter one actively discriminated against the local population etc. The market crash the external supporters the world's fair stand its politics etc.
You would need to read the early chapters to see how the Zionists behaved their chicanery there activities etc.
Again it also talks about the Palestinian leader who lived in Berlin during WW 2 as a collaborator and also their background politics
The truth is that the mandate nations were less than honourable in their deceptions and heavy handed treatment .
I can't by nature of the beast and space give a detailed response I highly recommend this book it was a real eye opener.
Sorry mate

some more info re pigs[swine whine]

Previous Swine Flu Outbreak Originated At Fort Dix
http://www.prisonplanet.com/previous-swine-flu-outbreak-came-from-fort-dix.html

Given the reports of the possibility of a swine flu epidemic, is interesting to note that last time there was a significant outbreak of a new form of swine flu in the U.S. it was traced back to the army base at Fort Dix, New Jersey.



WHO: Swine Flu Could Trigger Global Pandemic
http://www.prisonplanet.com/who-swine-flu-could-trigger-global-pandemic.html
The World Health Organization has warned that a new form of influenza that may have spread from Mexico into the U.S. could develop into a pandemic-type virus.



Mexico Shuts Schools Amid Deadly Flu Outbreak
http://www.prisonplanet.com/mexico-shuts-schools-amid-deadly-flu-outbreak.html
Mexican officials, scrambling to control a swine flu outbreak that has killed at least 16 people and possibly dozens more in recent weeks, shuttered schools from kindergarten to university for millions of young people in and around the capital on Friday and urged people with flu symptoms to stay home from work.



US ‘very concerned’ about swine flu outbreak
http://www.prisonplanet.com/us-very-concerned-about-swine-flu-outbreak.html
US medical authorities expressed strong concern Friday about an unprecedented multi-strain swine flu outbreak that has killed at least 60 people in Mexico and infected seven people in the United States.

Top Democrats Complicit In Torture Cover-Up
http://www.prisonplanet.com/top-democrats-complicit-in-torture-cover-up.html
We now know why top Democrats are protecting Bush administration officials from facing an inquiry into the illegal torture program - because several of them were actually complicit in giving their approval for such methods to be used.... just as the people of the pig will be revealed to be complicite in releasing this swine flue, so the war on iran comes off seamlessly
http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-planned-to-attack-iran-on-april-17-debka.html
read the signs [links]on the links
btw
http://www.prisonplanet.com/antarctic-sea-ice-increasing-study.html

Examinator, I believe you have summed up many aspects of the situation well, and I admit and admire your grasp on the overall recent and current geopolitical situation, however I feel you must have missed quite a bit of "ancient" Jewish history, and that has everything to do with the basic mind-set of the Israeli's, religious or not.
I see it nowadays as a relatively simple question, to any culture, society, nation, or wanna-be free people, "Who's pulling the trigger... TODAY"?
There are endless good reasons for an armed up-rising against various forms of rule, but that is not what's happening. When the rockets stop flying, and the bombers stay home, then maybe there'll be a chance of a hope of some sort of acceptable future.
How far does a free nation have to go to appease extremists? Even those with a basically good cause, as in the case of the Palestinians?

FACTBOX: New flu strain is a genetic mix
Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:33am(Reuters)U.S./health officials are investigating a strange new type of swine influenza that has infected at least seven people and which is expected to be found in more.

Here are some facts about the virus and flu viruses in general:

* The virus is an influenza A virus, carrying the designation H1N1.

* It is genetically different from the fully human H1N1 seasonal influenza virus that has been circulating globally for the past few years. The new flu virus contains DNA typical to avian, swine and human viruses, including elements from European and Asian swine viruses.

* Flu viruses mutate constantly, which is why the flu vaccine is changed every year, and they can also swap DNA in a process called reassortment. Most animals can get flu but viruses rarely pass from one species to another.

* From December 2005 through February 2009, 12 cases of human infection with swine influenza were confirmed, all but one among people who had contact with pigs. There was no evidence of human-to-human transmission.

* Symptoms of swine flu in people are similar to those of seasonal influenza;..sudden onset of fever,coughing,muscle aches and extreme tiredness...Swine flu appears to cause more diarrhea and vomiting than normal flu.

* People rarely catch avian flus. Notable exceptions include the H1N1 strain that caused the 1918 pandemic and H5N1 bird flu, which has killed 257 out of 421 infected in 15 countries since 2003, according to the World Health Organization.

* Seasonal flu kills between 250,000 and 500,000 people globally in an average year...Continued...
http://uk.reuters.com/article/email/idUKTRE53N0RZ20090424?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

or all on one page
http://uk.reuters.com/article/email/idUKTRE53N0RZ20090424?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0&sp=true

oug, that's all veyr interesting, but what does it have to do with the subject?

antiseptic[what has pigs to do with the topic]

replying to other quotes<<..Pigs are canibalistic..
wobbles<<KMB,..Regarding pigs and apes Allah/God earlier turned some people into pigs/apes as punishment..Muslims will receive their punishment on their Judgement day.
Talmud refers to non-believers as beasts,dung(and worse) and that Mormons believe,it's a matter of how seriously you take this stuff,>>

i take the WHOLE topic serious

there is a plan in planning..and pigs come into it big time[even nostrildammus..[cosa nostradamus]..had visions of the end time of men that look like pigs..join the dots

who boycotted the conferance..[all suporting israerl and virtually all controled by israel lobby

quote<<the key to the opposition to ahmadinejad

Austria,Belgium,Bulgaria,Cyprus,the Czech Republic,Denmark,Estonia,Finland,France,Greece,Hungary,Ireland,Latvia,Lithuania,Luxembourg,Malta,Portugal,Romania,Slovakia,Slovenia,Spain,Sweden and the UK.

The 27 EU members are the above plus Germany,Italy,the Netherlands and Poland,..which had already decided not to send delegates at all.


So the formula for the bloc claiming that Ahmadinejad is ‘racist’ is: EU,plus Israel,plus the surviving‘Anglo-Saxon’or‘English-speaking’ — i.e.,..white/colonial states:Australia&New Zealand,the USA &Canada.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/04/24/2551689.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlbzuZ_50mU
i suppose some miss the big picture

http://www.redress.cc/palestine/pjballes20090425
Israel calls itself a democracy,but actions speak far louder than words!..
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-rumsfeld-makes-5m-killing-on-bird-flu-drug-469599.html

or forget who died
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/deadbiologists.html
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/04/24/israeli-terrorists-attack-peaceful-demonstration-against-apartheid/

CDC was talking about recombinant viruses back in 2005.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/avian/gen-info/transmission.htm

2004,we were being propagandized that Bird/Flu was the next pandemic.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/12/1207_041207_birdflu.html

Bird Flu appeared to be nearly identical with the 1918 Spanish Flu..2005 it was admitted that scientists were intentionally recreating the 1918 Spanish Flu virus!

But the predicted pandemic didn't happen because Bird Flu isn't that contagious...It needed to be blended with a more infectious form of flu,..like swine flu Used as a bio-weapon by the CIA against Cuba),..!

And wonder of wonders,here it is!

In 2006,it was reported that scientists were intentionally creating bird flu and swine flu hybrids in the labs!

Which leads to asking how it is that this new flu epidemic explodes into view right after Fort Detrick admits that some of the nasty little beasties they have been working on went missing!

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display.htm?StoryID=89293

Max,
The middle east is to use a colourful metaphor is a black hole of emotions and emotive reasoning sucking in all surrounding rationality and pragmatism.

IBelieve that extremism is the effect not the cause.

There is so much pent up anger, petty jealousies, egos, religious pap etc. that need to be placated to render a lasting solution. In a perverse way Nostradamus was on the right track It will take a complete obliteration or an unfathomably complex and exhausting effort to resolve .

I believe that even without Israel it would continue as a moving feast of racial atrocities.
The war between Iran and Iraq was more than two petty dictators fighting for supremacy it was also racial, cultural and all stirred up by patriotism.

The Arabic world isn't a homoeogenous lump. In the middle you have a number of races. Kurds, Persians et sec. rich, poor millennium old traditions etc.
All conveniently ignored by the west. Its a bit like the French, Brits, Basks etc.
Imagine all these if poverty, cultural, power shifts, unemployable graduates were their reality.

Ancient past: There is even clear archaeological evidence that the division was artificial (religiously enforced) grouping likewise there is little objective evidence to support the 'myths' in the Bible/Torah et al. There are clear comparisons from older and diverse religions.

Even many of the Israeli national myths to prove their “right” are based on selective spin. I recommend that you read the book and follow the independent archaeological FACTS on things like Massada . Then read the Israeli myth.
To me this all adds up to that the Jewish claim on Palestine is no more valid than the 'Arab' inhabitants. One could say perhaps less. However I think they have a right to exist in peace as do the 'Arabs'. The trick is how to facilitate it.

Examinator,
Very good point!