dear a.symeonakis,
which part of the theory respects democracy and individuals human rights. is it the political part or the echonomic part.for it failed on both counts in the former United Socialist Soviet Republic.

Socialism is where 30% of the population have to work their guts out, in industry, to support,

30% of the population, who sit on their buts, doing nothing worthwhile, in government offices.

30% who sit on their buts, at home.

&

10% of the population, who are all ready dead, or have returned to their country of origin, to sit on their buts, doing nothing, on Oz pensions.

Hang on a minute, that what happens now.

Hi Antonious

I did not notice any provocation. I can however put your mind at rest. I do not work for a union or the ALP. I have no problem with union or ALP bureacrats - they have a job to do - but I cannot claim to be one.

CJ

What you say is valid - any program that sounds remotely inclusive is labelled by its detractors as socialist in the hope that the old reds under the beds paranoia will raise its head and scare away anyone with an open mind.

Can I add that including some of the benefits of socialist thought in a capitalist system does not mean that one does not value the role of enterprise and the importance of incentives. It is about controlling excesses and encompassing a model of fairness with a pragmatism that ensures the system works.

The thread continues to be full of interest, C J Morgan is quite right.
But so are others, the rubbish conservatives throw around is harmless compared to actions of some Socialists.
The red herring, voters do not vote for Labor because it is too right wing.
And do not join unions for the same reason, clearly wrong.
John Winston Howard, hardly socialist got one in three workers to vote for him.
Unionists too, the young are not full of socialist zeal, uninterested in politics most would not know who is who.
Try being a true left party, as the greens are, then tell me why they can never govern, they never ever will.
Part socialism is entrenched in our way of life, but a mix seems the most popular to me.

Belly
In terms of income and lifestyle, many of the old working class have moved into the middle classes including trades and construction workers. The old stalwart socialist is a dying breed which is why I laugh whenever the old Conservative guard start rabbiting on about the socialist ALP. The ALP has never been a real Socialist Party in the true sense. The voices from the ALP Left Faction was small and powerless even in the 70s and 80s.

Australia has become more middle class so the old class struggle has become less relevant that is how Howard managed to obtain the traditional working vote. Howard was also good at playing on fear - fear of terror, fear of immigrants, fear of socialists and fear of unions. Not to mention his old fear mongering standby of economic management.

Even myths can be spun or exagerrated by the political machine into perceived 'truths'.

REAL STORY
One time at the end of the 1974, a sheferd (Sotiros)from my vilage (North East Greece)with many children lost all his sheeps from an unkown desease. He asked the local authorities for support but they ignored him. He came to me to write a letter to minister for agriculture and asked for support.
I wrote a letter where I noticed his family conditions, his financial condition after the lose of the sheeps and informed him (the minister) that the local authorities ignored the sheferd.
Some weeks later Sotiros came to me and said me that he took a letter from the minister and informed him that the government will support him and soon he will receive money.
One week later he came to me ungry and said me that he did not like "the money from a communist" and said me that he will not accept the money!
I tried to explain him that I am not a communist but a socialist and the money was not from me but from Greek taxpayers but he did not like to listen to me. I left Greece and later when I return to to my vilage and he saw me, he run to me thanked me for the money he took (he changed mind and took the money!)of cause my letter and said me that he became a socialist!
People at begin worry when they hear the word socialist but soon understand that we are not what the others said them about us.
It is not only the international organization who called sosialist (International) but also the European Party called Sosialist, not labor, not social-democratic. There is a problem in Australia with the world socialist but therre are many migrants from other countries who are used with this word and I hope the rest of the people to understand what we mean with the word socialist.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide