"Socialism" is the term trotted out by wingnuts to describe any government action or policy with which they disagree. When such government actions or policies are aimed at improving the lot of socially disadvantaged or for environmental reasons it often becomes "socialism by stealth".

Speaking of which, where's old Col when you need him?

mikk
"less talk of workers, factories and class struggle. All rather irrelevant in the modern age"
You like capitalists! No word against them!
Do you think workers destroyed the international economy, the international financial system?
Do you think that CEOs, used taxpayers money about $18 billions of dollars for their bonus and private airplanes because they care for workers?
Do you thinks capitalists move their business to poor non democratic countries, of cause workers fighting for more and not because in theses countries there are no unions, (if any one speak for workers rights goes direct to prison,)no health and safty laws, no environment protection laws, no limits for capitalists?
I like your jokes mikk.
You did not write anything that workers are moving backward last decades, that they lose one right after the other, that the current financial crisis caused from aggresive, irrisponsible, uncontroled capitalists!
mikk,
Last years the Union movement is losing members and power not only in Australia but worldwide, especialy in Angllo -Saxon world.
Do you know why? because some "progresive" people have closed their eyes to capitalists aggresion! because some "progresive" people opened the back doors and windows to capitalists, because some "progresive" people instead to turn their arrows to capitalist they permanetly target workers.
Thomas Jefferson (The founder of The Democratic Party in USA) had right when he said "I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country."
Also Franklin D. Roosevelt had right when he said "If I were a worker in a factory, the first thing I would do would be to join a union"
But in our days, why workers to become member of the unions when people like you avoid to tell anything against capitalists?
I see your righ foot in the capitalists side and your left foot on the air!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Yuyutsu
Humans are not like the animals, we first plan and after realise our plan. We have plans, goals not like the ants.
It is wrong to believe that sosialism is against or ignore the individuals in the name of general benefits, in the name of the all.
Socialism is a deep democratic movement, a movement which respect and promote the human rights because it respect and support and promote individuals rights.
What real the socialism try to do is to overpass, to minimize the difference between the benefits, interests from the all and the unit, between the human societies and individual humans.
Humans can not exists as individuals and society can exist withought individuals.
Our goal is to promote the interest of the society and individuals simultaneously.
We do not turn society or individuals against each other, we try to improve with democratic way the understanding and cooperation of both sides for the mutual benefits.
For us society and individuals are the two sides from the same coin
We are deep humanists with ful respect and love to individuals.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

dear david f,
socialism; a political and economic theory which advocates that the comunity as a whole should own and control the means of production, distrobution and exchange
2 policy or practice based on this theory.
social engineering; the use of socialogical principles in aproaching social problems.
sociology; the study of the development structure, and funcioning of human society.
I hope this is a help

Hi Antonios
Sorry if I gave out the impression I support the capitalists. Far from it as I am a proud libertarian socialist who despises everything about capitalism from its exploitation of workers to its destruction of the environment and mindless ideology of endless growth.

But after numerous debates and arguments with fellow socialists about how to change the world I am despairing of the blinkered dogma they throw up to support various positions. Things like the obsession some have with marx or engels or trotsky. Hardly beacons of modernity are they? Where are our modern up to date socialist thinkers. We can hardly expect marx to have any answers to the problems with todays media or environmental worries. Sure they have their theories and such that are still relavant especially regarding work/labour/capital but the world has changed a lot since their day and personally I think relying so heavily on them does socialists no good at all. We need to think and write and capture the publics attention just like marx et al did 150 years ago. With todays economic climate it just may work.

Also another part of the socialist movement I have issues with are the fence molesters that we see at protests against apec, wto etc. Fighting with the police thugs and destroying property is not the way to endear yourselves to the public. Where are the non violent protesters willing to take a beating from the uniformed goons and show them for the hired killers of the capitalist elites that they really are? Once people saw little old ladies getting their heads bashed in then maybe they would begin to question things rather than be content with "bread and circuses". I believe in direct action but we must not stoop to their level. A free society cannot come about by force or violence. Revolution just changes the oppressors and makes everyone fearful. Will I be next they ask

continued (stupid word limit)

We give the capitalists their power and we only have to say NO I will not go along with this and if we all did it they would fall. One thing I think that has been missing in socialist circles for some time is the notion of solidarity. The atomisation of society was a key tactic of the capitalists and they have succeeded mightily. We need to speak strongly of solidarity and the success we can have if we all join together and co operate. Pity it only happens when there is a disaster theses days.

I did not focus on the capitalists and their failings because this is a thread about socialism. Capitalists have abused and degraded our planet and the stupidest thing is that they themselves will be just as badly affected as the rest of us. They have exposed themselves and now is our chance to strike back and show socialism as a more viable and fairer system than capitalism. All it needs are the voices pointing out the glaring flaws in their ideology and the will to take a stand.

These are just a few things I meant by my previous comments.