*Small families do in not in any way enhance a womans long term health prospects.*

Hang on Philo, 12 kids could send any sane woman nuts :)

What has changed is that today women have choice when it
comes to family planning, unlike those days.

Clearly not too many women choose to have twelve children,
when given that choice.

Back in the days when the pill was banned in Ireland, they
used to smuggle it in by the boatload. Its simple, woman want
choice and not be treated as mere broodmares. Fair enough
and I doubt if you can give a good reason why they should
be denied that choice.

Pro life people believe in a real choice that doesn't involve the committing of an immoral act and of a crime according to law. Pro life is the true pro choice position to hold. No unborn baby is killed. Natural family planning according to Catholic teaching involves no pills ( abortafacients) and no onanism. Most married couples at the Catholic parish of St Hohn Vianney's in the Diocese of Parramatta swear by it. Some have two or three children; other have more with many having four of five ( most) and some having eight, nine and one happy couple have thirteen. All are happy and my wife and I along with our children have family BBQ's and after Mass have a cuppa and a laugh as Catholics do.
Most of us, including our parish priest Fr John O'Neill, are seeking a real labor party to represent us all again. Currently poor Australia has a rich man's party the Libs; but sadly an ALP that is very close to big business and is against working class Aussies like us who are doing the right thing by having kids.( more than Costello's plea to have one more for the country).
Where killing is concerned ( abortion) no one has the right to stupidity. Stupidity has no rights at all and so there is no choice possible to kill unborn children. End of story folks.

Dear David
Thanks for your more than a little rant against the Catholic Church which you neatly borrowed from anti Catholic religious bigots and not a few secular ones besides.
One problem with your story of the Jews. The initially gave support to the de-former ( not re-former) Martin Luther. They soon found out that he was a frothing at the mouth hater of them. Like the early days of the Spanish Inquisition ( which persecuted Catholics) both Catholics form Spain- including priests and bishops, and Jews from the German States- sought future assistance from the Pope against the small group of fanatics in Spain and the Jew hating Luther.
A little more on Spain as an interesting aside. Much early Protestant English government propaganda was directed against Catholic Spain. Truth is William Cecil, Cromwell and other newly invented Anglicans wreaked torture and murder upon the UK.
Pope Pius XII wrote an encyclical letter condeming Nazism andhuman rights abuses in German held territories; and did so in German ! a break with Latin to get the message out. Golda Meir and World Jewry after WWII congratulated him. The Chief Rabbi of Rome was so impressed he became a Catholic. NA took as his baptisimal name Eugenio. He did so in honour of Eugenio Pacelli a.k.a. Pope Pius XII.
Jews that were saved from the Nazis were mostly protected by religious Catholics and Lutherans and Evangelicals, not by Johnny come lately Commo/liberal secularists even back then in the thick of things in WWII.

Thankyou David for your bigoted rank. Thought I get you to reflect upon my humble offering.

*Natural family planning according to Catholic teaching involves no pills *

Ah, I just love that catholic method, where they tell you how great
it is, then have 6-8 children :) Webby, you use it if it works for
you lol, but don't expect others to take it too seriously. Others
should be free to choose, like about anything else.

You might love your Catholic sing songs and after church barbecues
with all the kids, but clearly the majority of Catholics are baling
out, for despite all those kids, the Catholics Church pews are
largely empty.

I was one of the many many kids, whom the nuns tried to brainwash,
but at a young age already told the church to get stuffed, for
I could see through their hogwash.

Once again, no babies or children are involved in most abortions,
for a fetus is not yet a person, it does not yet have a human
brain. No human brain = no person, all quite simple really.

You flush your sperms and ova down the toilet without a problem,
they are beings and they are human, you murderer you :)

Morality is of course subjective and is little more then somebody's
opinion. If you want to take your moral guidance from a few old
farts in Rome, well that should be your choice, as it is mine, if
I want to play golf or not.

But don't expect me to take those old farts in Rome seriously, in
any way, shape or form.

After all, they live in pomp and splendour, whilst kids are dying
of starvation, so much for them caring about the suffering.

Webby wrote: Thanks for your more than a little rant against the Catholic Church which you neatly borrowed from anti Catholic religious bigots and not a few secular ones besides.

Dear Webby,

I would like to tell you of some of my sources:

Gordon Zahn, a Catholic sociologist wrote “In Solitary Witness” about a heroic Catholic, Franz Jaegerstatter, who refused to fight for the Nazis and was eventually beheaded. His priest and other members of the Catholic clergy persuaded him to go. He refused and was beheaded. Zahn also wrote "German Catholics and Hitler's Wars: A Study in Social Control" which told how the German Catholics by and large supported Hitler. Zahn was cofounder of Pax Christi USA, a Catholic peace organisation.

"Constantine’s Sword" by James Carroll, Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 2001, tells how the adoption of Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire changed Christianity to a religion of war. James Carroll was a Catholic chaplain in the US army and started to question during the Vietnamese War.

Edward H. Flannery (1912 – October 19, 1998) was a priest in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Providence, and the author of “The Anguish of the Jews: Twenty-Three Centuries of Antisemitism”, first published in 1965. He did not shut his eyes to what his church has done.

Fr. Flannery was the first director of Catholic-Jewish Relations for the U.S. Bishops' Committee for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs, a position he held from 1967 to 1976.

Most of my information about Pius XII comes from "A Cross too Heavy: Eugenio Pacelli." By Paul O’Shea, a Catholic.

For the life of Luther I read "Luther: a Biography" by H. G. Haile, a Lutheran.

I also read “The Roots of Anti-Semitism: In the Age of Renaissance and Reformation" by Heiko Obermann. It was translated from German and published by Fortress Press, a Lutheran publishing house.

Most of my sources are Christians of good will who try to deal with the past of their churches unlike you who deny and call names. You might benefit by reading some of the above.

Yabby, you have some serious anger management issues not to mention generalisations and downright spaced out rants to deal with.
Wow, I really leeerrvvvv the serial denials done with barely disguised passive aggression ( are your teeth ground down whilst feigning sanity)concerning babies not really being babies before birth and now you add they have no brains.
Wow. What tablets are you taking Yabster?
At least Diamond Jim McLelland who became an atheist makes more sense than you do and still joined with the ALP Groupers as did many non-Catholics to remove Communists fro the trade unions in days gone by.
Diamond Jim was a more productive and rational atheist than you are advertising tonight about the Kingdom of Nothingness.
Diamond Jim might be praying for you now ( if he is at the right diestination). Who knows? He may have repented during his last moments. Who knows? Jim, if you are in the right place, pray for Yabby please !