I refer to the article in The Age newspaper's,
'Good Weekend,' magazine, Sat. February 7, 2009,
called "Lest We Forget."

As it says on the cover,

"One year on from the apology a remarkable
pictorial history of the First Australians."
The book is called, "Portraits From a Land
Without People: A Pictorial Anthology of
Indigenous Australia 1847 - 2008."

Looking at the pictures made me wonder why
do we still take pride in who we pertain to be?

Thoughts?

We take pride because we are not all bad.
Because we are not unlike any humans who took others lands.
because we have come to understand things not we, but some of our ancestors did was wrong.
Because at last we said sorry, even thou so many got the words stuck in their throats.
We have much to be proud of, much to be sad for but yes we can be proud of the present, not always ashamed of the past.
And hopeful for the future.
I have listened to then then leader of the oppositions speech so many times.
I am so very proud he spoke for far less Australians than Rudd.
I have never forgotten never will, my hand is always there to help.
Not all the sins of today are white mens, not all the answers will come from us, self help must be part of the answer.

Belly,
I am a little perplexed, if I remember rightly (& here I leave myself open to the charge of misrepresenting you–déjà vu!).I seem to remember you saying that you did not favour an apology.

Yet, now in this post, if I read you correctly, you seem to be lauding the apology.What gives?

Did some party official tap you on the shoulder and say:'listen mate you need to toe the party line' ?

I personally believe that the people who are the most opinionated have the loudest voices. The people who we all should be celebrating are the people who live and let live. Who volunteer for the pure joy of it. Who work hard to find themselves in positions that help others in need. Who do what they do just to try and make a difference. They don't judge your origins. They don't discriminate, aren't ignorant of others plight, or see them as anything other than fellow human beings.

Those are the people that should be encouraged and celebrated in this society, but instead, the people that mean harm intentionally or otherwise through ignorance are the ones find themselves in the spotlight and the media find more interesting.

The more the people that do good are celebrated publicly the more inspiring you'll find your society and the people in it. There's a percentage that REFUSE to treat others as anything other than equals. It happens A LOT on OLO here as we all know. Those, unfortunately, are the ones with the loudest voice.

IMHO anyway.

John Ogden's book, "Portraits From a Land Without People,"
is a remarkable pictorial history of Aboriginal Australia.
As the article in 'The Good Weekend,' points out "the hundreds
of photos confirm the absurdity of the notion of terra nullius.
There are pictures, dating from early colonial times, of
desert people with spears and woomeras under a burning sun,
forest people in possum-and wallaby-skin coats, coastal
people with their sophisticated fish traps. It was a
continent alive with human activity.

The images are beautiful and shocking. Dignified and tragic.
There's a photo of an old Aboriginal man in a tin humpy,
the stump of an arm lying on a leg as thin as a chicken
bone, the unseeing eyes, the hand that rests on the paws of
his pup...He is Ngukata Tjupurrula, a fully initiated Pintupi
man. Tjupurrula, now dead, lost the arm in the late 1940s after
he escaped from police custody while still wearing handcuffs, a
ratchet type that tightened and cut deeper into his wrists the
more he tried to remove them. Gangrene set in, later tracoma
sent him blind."

In order to understand where we are today, we have to understand
our history, the full history. Unless we acknowledge the past,
we cannot claim the future as our own.

StG

Beautiful. Thank You. Spoken with the 'real spirit of Australia

Lest We Forget...


LETS WE FORGET has always been attributed in the minds of Aussies to Anzac Day. I know that is why 'I entered this link.

To pay my respect for the fallen soldiers ( all of them)=

Be they our white Australian`s fathers , grandfathers, grandmothers or the many aboriginal fathers and grandfathers who fought in the same wars and also the horses dogs and animals that lost their lives.

800 horsemen/the lighthorsemen, an he discovered that 400 of those ANZACs were aboriginal.

Why not celebrate Anzac Day together and remember the incredible sacrifices that both black and white Australians made in defence of our country

Foxy,
You are so indeed correct. We should neither forget the good deeds as a reason to celebrate (“those who don't celebrate the good in society are prone to lose It.") or the bad ones not as a matter of personal shame but as national acknowledgement of past grievous mistakes, healing and more importantly as a bulwark against repeating them. ("Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them").

Horus,
A famous scientist was once asked in an interview “What will do you do if you're proven wrong?"
The answer was “Change my opinion, why what would you do?”

StG,
I agree with most of your post.
I do put it to you that both ‘the most opinionated...’ and your ‘equality ‘ statements are some what open to different interpretation.

Given this is a text only site your first statement need more clarification to be meaningful…do you mean the most belligerent or the most prolific or do you simply mean those who question your view?

In the second point I think that all people being ‘all people are equal’ is statement that
• Acknowledges that every one is equally important as humans. Not necessarily as in life deeds/ path, that is a separate issue. We should by all means celebrate the honourable or exceptional *deeds* of individuals. That does not mean that their opinions or expertise aren’t respected.

• NB this a personal opinion point only; I reject the notion of hierarchies based by means of birth, celebrity, election, money, power, race, sport, et al (alone) in a human context as being substantially unsupportable in logic, fact or morality.

... a bit of a different thought...
Lest we forget - Anzac Day - 1 million killed Iraqis
yes I agree, lest we forget, it obviously means different things to us individually...

Examinator said:

"StG,
I agree with most of your post.
I do put it to you that both ‘the most opinionated...’ and your ‘equality ‘ statements are some what open to different interpretation."

Thankyou. "The most opinionated..." meaning those who aren't afraid to voice their opinion no matter what the content tend to be the ones that are heard the most because of the controversy that content creates. Eg: Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali and his "uncovered meat" comment, and John Law's describing Carson Kressley as a "pompous little pansy prig" and a "pillow-biter" and then stating 'piss off pansy' in 2005. There's a zillion examples of highlighted intolerance that are heard over the good that people do.

Question my view?, no, I welcome all conversation so long as it's thought out and doesn't aim to create hurt. I react badly if it does. I'm learning not to reply.

If the people that aim to do good were given the lime light in SOCIETY more would join the cause.

You said: "That does not mean that their opinions or expertise aren’t respected."

I didn't suggest they weren't. I believe they're not celebrated enough. I think the Indigenous population of Australia are treated like some sort of 'other society' or something by the general population. Not suggesting they're a bunch of angels or anything but they do have a lot to offer. New Zealand is a good example of how things CAN be done. Not saying it is some sort of multicultural utopia but it isn't doing too bad.

It's only relatively recently that I managed to
acquire a copy of the book by historian,
Henry Reynolds, "Why Weren't We told?"

I read it so that I would learn more about this
country's history, as well as being able to
argue with my brother who lives in Kempsey,NSW,
and sees Aborignals in a negative way (unfortunately).

I learned a great deal from the book. But sadly I
don't think I succeeded in changing my brother's
views.

My brother feels that our national cohesion and
self-confidence is being undermined by the historians
of the black-armband brigade. He objects in their
trying to make people feel ashamed rather than proud
of their past.

However, Historian Henry Reynolds explains:

"I have been aware of the attacks - both personal and
general - bu they usually seem to be off target, to
have missed the point.

I don't think I have ever felt guilty about historic
events, regardless how infamous. I have always thought
that guilt pertained to those things - actions, words, thought
even - for which one is personally responsible.

I'm not sure that I have ever felt shame about the brutal
business of colonisation, perhaps because I don't have a
strong enough sense of identification with the British
colonists who thrust the frontiers out into Aboriginal
Australia. I have often been incensed or angry about the
cruelty and injustice involved, but even then I have felt
under a professional obligation to try to understand and
explain the behaviour of the perpetrators.

To know 'why' was more important and more challenging than
simply to descry... but knowing brings burdens which can
be shirked by those living in ignorance.

With knowledge the question is no longer what we know but
what we are not to do, and that is a much harder matter
to deal with. It will continue to perplex us for many
years to come."

I believe that tolerance and understanding must broaden
out. Bigotry must retreat. And although the history
may be distressing, it will enable us to know and understand
each other better.

Horus again! last time you miss quoted me on this subject, you hide away and did not address my telling you it was not me who said that.
Go back to Graham Young's thread started the day or the day after Rudd's speech.
Read it all, come back and call me what you want but this time have the courage not to hide, come back and remind me of exactly what post I said that.
You just must stop telling this lie! I rejoiced here in print at Rudd's every word.
Have you the courage to except my challenge? or are you just uncontrolled words without basis?
Can anyone believe anything you post? in what thread did I have a go at you? remember your first claim? that I got into you for saying we should say sorry?
can you blame me for regarding every thing you post as not reliable?

Foxy
I suspect you've take something I've said as somehow critical of you rather than as is always intended unless attacked as merely declaring MY passion and refusal to back away. What is good for me is rarely good for others simply because of "my boots" and commitment to doing what I can. If Ive offended sorry.

StG.
>There's a percentage that REFUSE to treat others as anything other than equals.
On my first reading I interpreted this to mean that Some people only treat others as equals and I was perplexed now I see seem my day for saying oops sorry in that light I agree with you.

Not sure if I am STG,s target but unconcerned if I am.
Horus however injured me, twice, in the thread changes to OLO we should have spent time on blatant miss representation.
None of us, not one can tell what we are truly like from what we write, my other hobby, well one of a few is ham radio, believe me only face to face contact can be trusted.
I am very much left of center, proudly
To me all men are equal, separated only by education and opportunity.
Can we not see opportunity is not coming to too many?
But I know love me or hate me, after years of true volunteering, some from every race will not try for self improvement.
We can have a 1960s love in or face facts, we have not done enough we might just have added to the problem not fixed it.
And our actions will judge us in 50 years not our words.
However I refuse to hide from the simple fact some want only to stay the way they are.
by the way SES, VRA NSW bush fire brigade until last few years With WIA emergency services, once CHREST I just can not see how I could give more time volunteering.
But its me who retrieve kids in trouble and bring them home from police stations or far away railway stops well after midnight.
Horus retract your lie please.

Dear examinator,

I wish that I knew what you were talking about, but
sorry I don't. If I should be offended over something
you said - it's obviously gone over my head.
Besides, how on earth could I possibly be offended
at anything you said, you speak from your heart.
And, that's just one of the things that's so great about
you. :)

Keep on being passionate!

examinator.

You're right, my apologies. I said, "There's a percentage that REFUSE to treat others as anything other than equals.".

My intention in the statement was, 'There's a percentage that REFUSE to treat others as equals'.

Belly. I'm talking about people here who use gross generalisations to describe various members of this society. A couple usually aim at our Islamic members, one aims generally at everyone not Christian but is mostly disgusted by homosexuals, and one at people of faith.....Christian, mostly. I guess he would target others faiths if they hung around here long enough to get a foothold without being scared off by all three.

Foxy, Lets we forget Anzac Day

examinator, What does Australia day mean to you.

Would you 'both' mind telling us what it you want pls ?

This thread seems a carrying over from my last post from examinator, OLO rules IMOP.

I am asking you both ‘again’ because neither of you have responded to questions about this in the past.

First you want Australia day changed- The date. Yes?

Now do I understand Foxy you think we should change the date of Anzac day as well.?

Is that what you both want? Foxy, you want us to change the date of Anzac day. Yes or No?

Let me tell you both a little secret. We have worked with Aboriginal Elders and people for quite some time. They are just like anybody else. Some want to get on with these projects that unite us all as one and make the most of Rudds apology.

To many that apology was enough. It was all they wanted.

However some don’t want a darn thing to do white folk full stop end of story.

It never used to be that way but more and more the trouble makers are stirring and filling their heads with anti social towards whites.

Another little secret. The link below is someone you will both love.

I have spoken with Mark a few times. Hes very good friends of people who are imop travelling this country picking up info for Elders. ( Live Export elders that is)

Now basically what he’s saying is the banks had no right to give us mortgagees because we don’t own the land.

So in other words if your kids have borrowed to buy a house- or yourselves you don’t have to pay it back because Aboriginal people never gave up their title.

Sounds good doesn’t it :) However it has much deeper ramifications.

Mean time Marks so busy he’s not even hearing the opportunities for his people.
Its just so sad-
Anyway enjoy =

http://www.loveforlife.com.au/node/5144

Horus I spent some restless hours last night searching for evidence to back your claim, you made the same one twice.
I found GY,s thread sorry is not enough, the evidence there hardly supports me thinking other than with great pride that we said sorry.
However, just maybe my view that we sometimes over look evidence that seems to show some do not believe in self help may have lead me into saying something stupid.
And against my true beliefs, please highlight the thread and post.
ST G I understand and agree, in fact we all should avoid some posters who are less than open minded.

Dear PALE&IF,

No, I don't want Australia Day changed.
I said that I didn't have a problem with the
date. I said that we could keep the date of
white settlement as it was, (akin to Thanksgiving
Day in the US). Then if we wanted to ,we could
celebrate 'Australia Day' on the date (when and if)
we became a Republic. I said that I'm sure most
Australians wouldn't mind an extra public holiday.
I know I wouldn't. I did stress- Let Australia
decide as to what it wants to do.

As for changing Anzac Day?
No. That is not what this thread is about.
I merely took "Lest We Forget," from the title
of the article in The Good Weekend magazine,
on which this thread is based.
Please read my previous posts.

Cheers,

Most cultures/nations/peoples have at one time during their history committed acts that now would be labelled barbaric, unjust and shameful.

Acknowledgment of past deeds is not an act of self-hate (as some profess) nor does it intend to inflict 'shame' on the current generations. But if an action of the past still resonates and affects the wellbeing of another group today, surely the recognition of it through an apology is a positive step forward.

To learn from the past is one of the richest gifts we can bestow on ourselves in the hope that past mistakes are not repeated and dignity is not lost in the political process or pursuit of power.

We can be proud and as a group move forward without losing hope nor dignity. The apology allowed this to happen and gave back some dignity and hope to indigenous Australians. It was a symbolic and heartfelt gesture which did not pretend to be the solution to other problems in indigenous communities.

Dear Pelican,

I'd like to tell you a story:

"The prison was a small concrete building, bare and featureless.
It could have been a fort or a blockhouse.

Coming in from the sunlight we found it dark and
cool. It smelt of urine. There were two doors, one in front of
us, one on the right-hand side.
"There's no one in that cell," the Superintendent, nodding towards
the door in front of us. He turned to his right, unlocked the
second door and threw it open. The walls were bare, with light
coming in from a barred window. The glass on the inside of the bars
had been broken and shards of it were scattered on the floor.

There was a plastic bucket in the far right-hand corner. Along
the wall facing the windows was an old, dirty mattress flat on the
concrete floor.

Sitting on the mattress were two small girls. Onw may have been
about thirteen, the other smaller and perhaps younger. They were
dressed in ill-fitting print dresses several sizes too large for
them.

The Superintendent told them to stand up. They looked agast at being
seen in such a situation visiting white fellas. The bigger of the
two girls had one hand and lower arm bandaged. Blood had seaped
through and spread on the surface of the bandage.

The Superintendent explained that she had a short time before smashed the window with her fist.

"Why are they here?" I asked.
The Superintendent explained they had sworn at their teacher.
They were spending the day in prison as a consequence..."

It was so grossly disproportionate.
What misuse of power. What could the teacher have been thinking?
Did they not realise the long-term consequences of their actions?"

This story was told by the historian Henry
Reynolds in his book, "Why Weren't We told?"

Yes, an apology was the first step in the right direction.
But it must not stop there. Apologising for the past is fine,
but what about what's still happening today, and what will
tomorrow bring for these First Australians?

Foxy your story saddens me, saying sorry lifted my heart sky high, your story highlights acts no less than criminal.
But yesterdays acts, remember them, do not forget them, learn from them, but do not isolate them.
Those days are also the home and times of welfare gone wrong, white children became the forgotten Australians in the 40,s 50,s and 60,s raped bashed tortured.
My family all white had a social illness, we had too many kids under one roof, often hungry we had the threat of being taken away to live with every day.
Catholic busybody's called welfare monthly just because they could.
See we got it very wrong, yes even worse for Aboriginals, but I have moved on, grown from these fear filled days.
What benefits are there in reliving yesterday if we can change tomorrow instead?
Horus , as was the case last time your silence shouts at me.
Answers please.

Dear Belly,

What benefits are there in re-living yesterday?
It's important to learn from the past to ensure
that it doesn't happen again. As the old proverb says:

"No, don't! Don't dig up the past!
Dwell on the past and you'll lose an eye!"

But the proverb goes on to say:

"Forget the past and you'll lose both eyes."

Decades go by, and for us the scars and sores of the past
are healing over for good. However, unless we learn from the
mistakes of the past, for the Aboriginal people it is
unlikely they will have a future to contemplate. The moral
choice is ours (white fellas) to make.

And we can start by a statute of rights that the previous
Justice Michael Kirby was arguing for. Where equality
would be enshrined into law. We could start by having Aboriginal
children receive an education akin to those that white kids
receive. We could have their history taught in all schools.
I'm not an expert but as I've said in my previous posts, we need
to try to remove bigotry, and make it so that we all have an
future to look forward to. All of us. Because at present
not all of us do.

*Dear PALE&IF,*

No, I don't want Australia Day changed....

>>>>>>>>>>
I said that I'm sure most
Australians wouldn't mind an extra public holiday.
I know I wouldn't>>

Dear Foxy
I dont see anybody on this thread against Aboriginals + I think its wonderful your prepaired to stand up for them. There is wisdom in Bellys words too. That was made clear when we walked proudly with them across Sydney Harbour bridge.

I would like you to look at our progect to assist Aboriginal People. Its a Australian wide project which involves all the schools unis and agriculture center hospitals much more.
Not all of it is on our web site however there is a link to obtain futher details to click on.

Could we ask you to write out some of your ideas/ projects for Aboriginal People pls. Give us a better idea of what you think would work and why.
I was dissapointed kevin Rudd gave Indonisia an 'additional' 300 million of the Australian`s public purse without asking us. We dont even ask what the funds are to be used for. No report twelve months later, 'nothing.' Those funds imo should have gone to our Aboriginal people to build some of the things you pointed out.

Now Foxy heres the part we are going to disagree on. I would mind another public holiday. Especially in these hard times ahead our small business just can not handle it.

So unless its a public holiday without pay I certainly disagree with you in the strongest possible terms on that one.

Dear PALE&IF,

It's all been said before.

You don't need lists from someone like me (who's
not an expert) to know what the Aborigines need.

I'm sure that you're fully aware that at present
they're worse than third-class citizens. They don't
have a positive self-image. They have a fear of the
way they will be treated by government officials,
by police, and even their neighbours in the towns
in which they live.

They're not treated the same as whites in a culture
where any immigrant has a better chance of making it,
than they do.

The job is massive - but it has to start with the
improvement of their self image. The last living
Aboriginal languages, for example, should be part of
our lives. New Zealand has English and Maori languages.
Yet none of us know anything about, Pitjantjatjara,
Warlpiri, Arrernte, Tiwi, to name just a few.

Imagine if your child was the only person in the country
that spoke your language. Your culture would die.

Anyway, if you're really interested in getting suggestions
from an expert, contact Dr Eva Sallis, the founder of
Australians Against Racism:

http://www.evasallis.com/code/contact.html

or:

info@australiansagainstracism.org

They will be able to help you.

Cheers

Dear Foxy
*Anyway, if you're really interested in getting suggestions*
from an expert, contact Dr Eva Sallis, the founder of
Australians Against Racism:*


:}:) no thanks

Dear Foxy,
Gosh Foxy, Your so darn nice and trusting of everybodies intentions .
There are ‘no projects’ on this site.. Only Islamic sites and organisations I am familiar with.

Projects please, where are they.

1 The ones you approve of.

2 The reason you think these people should be supported.

3You must have made your judgement on something after all.

4 Or do you really think everybody is as nice as you -with no hidden agendas. I wish.
I am aware of this movement working with certain Islamic Councils.

5 May I enquire have you looked at this site.

6 Do you fully understand it?

7 Your like ever body’s guardian angel, with the best of intentions to all man kind and animals. However regarding this your on the wrong track.

8 Since when were Aboriginal People treated as Islamic members.?

9 Where do ‘you’ see the connection between Islamic Councils Media releases and our Aboriginal People

10. Why do you think some Islamic Councils want to work with Aboriginal People/

Anyway as you support this moment and people I am sure you will be kind enough to direct me to’ the projects ‘on the site they have come up with that you’re supporting.
Here are a few of their links- I will just wait for you to explain to me how they are connected to our Australian Aboriginals. =

http://www.evasallis.com/PDF/al-nahar.pdf
Arabic Reviews and Profiles
These are downloadable PDF documents
Wadih Sa'adeh al-Nahar
Abbas El-Zein Hurriyat 17 1999
Abbas El-Zein Hurriyat 15 1999
http://www.islamicmedia.com.au/

If you get stuck for Answers I know your friend Antonio can help you out.

Later I will post for you proposals by the recognised leaders for Aboriginal People.

Cheers Fox

Dear PALE&IF,

I'm sorry but I'm totally confused. What are you talking
about? What Islamic sites are you talking about that
I'm supposedly supporting? What's Antonios got to do
with anything? And, what does Islam have to do with this
thread?

I'm sorry PALE&IF, you've lost me totally.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Dear Foxy

Havn`t time now with the fires to go into detail. Its almost 2am. I Would be relucant to on here anyway.

There are 'some in Australia working to turn aboriginal people against us. There were plans to open a Muslim party and ask aboriginal people to join.

There were even rumoured for ATSIC funds to have made there way into some Islamic groups.

That is all I will say on this topic.Those links are on the site 'you' posted'
So the question has that site you got to do with our Aboriginal People.

Aboriginal people need us to help them with projects to become self suffient totally inderpendant.
Our generation isnt reasponsible for anything other than supporting them.
kevin Rudd just gave 300 million to our neighbours which could have and should have been used to build unis for aboriginal people houses health care etc.

Here is one proposal for Aboriginal people and believe me when I say we care 'very much' about them.

Bradley Saunders
A/Assistant Director
Partnerships and Innovation
Strategic Partnerships Office
Department of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Policy

Ross Richardson and State Members Federak\l Leader of AMIEU
(Australian Meat Industry Employment Union)

Mr Mark Townend
CEO RSPCA
(Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals)
RSPCA QLD are the first to train and employ Aboriginal Inspectors.

Councils working with (HKM) have put together a program to foster joint ventures with overseas live importers and investors with Australian Farmers . Especially aboriginal people in co joining or by lease or by personal arrangement operating FREE RANGE Farms

There is a real oportunitys here to build hospitals and unis.

Tell you something Foxy. We had a group to buy lock stock and barrel a hundred acre property with everything.
It was to be tuned into a Aboroginal Uni

They told us they didnt want it.
They refused to work with the white.
Speaking of racisim
Sad but true.
People must also 'want to help themselves.

Good night Foxy.

Dear PALE&IF,

Thanks for explaining things to me.
And for all the information you've given me.

I deeply appreciate and value everything you and
your organisation does.

Take care,

Dear Foxy
Thanks, but we are no much different than yourself really. Only registered as an organisation because of insurance for volunteers to
cover our good people who give up their time.

We are funded by RSPCA QLD and from our own pockets- and we do not fund raise either. That gives us is a poor budget but very sincere people. I have always maintained if you remove wages you only get sincere helpers.
Now your comment above that you would leave things to more experienced people doesnt serve you justise. Your just what the Aboriginal people NEED Foxy. Trust me I know people.

Funny isnt it, Antiono tried to grab you now us:) Just kidding.

However I would appreciate this golden oportunity to run a couple of project ideas for the Rudd Government- and State Governments by you on this thread if you wouldnt mind too much.

With your brains and our love of Animals Aboriginal People and our elderly we might be able to attract his attention.

So am I free, to seek your advise, on what we have in mind ,to make Aboriginal people our backbone and real leaders of this country?

Love your thoughts and opinions if you can spare a few posts.


I mean that most sincerly Foxy

Dear PALE&IF,

Go for it. I'll help in whatever way I can, but as I said,
my advice won't be that of any sort of expert - all I can
do is express an opinion. But, if you're happy with that
well then, - I'll do what I can.

I'd still feel happier if you were to contact someone like
Dr Eva Sallis, who sounds like such a great humanitarian,
as well as being an expert in Aboriginal Affiars.

Anyway, the ball's in your court.

Belly
This was what I was referring to:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1174#21376

Maybe I mis-read it ...but it sounds like a no to me.

Cheers!

Fair cop Horus I said it!
My opinion evolved it appears, see the thread after Rudd said it.
No backing down, no way round it guilty as charged.
I have by the way not changed my mind about guilt money, we should fund every thing than can help but not that.
and today we must confront the fact accountability is a two way street.
And I do not wish to dig a hole and bury the past, have nothing but great respect for Foxy.
But this thread is no answer to the problem, I could construct a horror story about any invaders in any country, but we can not change the past, only the future.
Lets start with the Battle of Hastings 1066 are you aware of how badly the conquerer treated native Englishmen, another story but we can change nothing.
Yet we just must change today and tomorrow.

Foxy

Ok Will do. Just give me a few days and thanks.

Horus,
I see nothing wrong at all with Bellys position on Aboriginals.
An Apology was all some wanted. Others sadly saw it as a means to sue.

I can assure you unless people want to work learn and help themselves nothing will change. I am pretty sure thats what Belly was saying.
I dont think it was the right time to jump up and demand the date to be changed.It was a slap in the face and Kevins learnt a lesson by it. I must addmitt I was surprised by his leadership that day. He handled it well. Better than I suspected.

I have always been screaming we need to look after our own FIRST.

Some people have encouraged the aboriginal people to fight for their country back.- Hence those links I put up earlier.

I prefer to see them fight for themselves and their kids to keep their wonderful culture because in the hearts of 99% of Aussies we love these people.
This is today not a hundred years ago. Now there are some real projects on the table to fix this.

It will fix other problems also and keep Australia away from looking to China for food products.

Thats going to happen more and more if we dont fix the bush and regional areas up.

The counter argument is-

I have seen offers of people paying over 4 mill out of their own pockets to establish an ag school and universitys for them regected.

True

All very sad indeed.

Dear Belly,

What I was hoping to achieve with this thread was to remind
us - one year on from the apology - the remarkable history
of the First Australians, and to look to what can be
achieved in the future. Because as you rightly point out,
and with which I fully agree, it's the future that matters.

I know that PALE&IF has some great ideas - and I'm looking
forward in learning about some of them.

I also agree that people have to want to help themselves -
but how do we get them to do that when they don't believe
that they can. When the self-image that they have is
different from the one we have of ourselves, when they feel
that they are inferior - that's something that needs fixing
first I think.

Dear Foxy



Part One: Project Aboriginal Regional Area Joint project:

: The Minister for Aboriginal affairs Health, Regional projects, employment.+ others to 'combine' their aligated funding and commit to a joint project to develop infrastructure Schools, Hospitals ,Unis for Aboriginal and Regional people.
Training for electrical plumber building, nurses, Drs carpenters Agriculture Vetinary IT.

: Now we realise even to combine their funding that would not give the total funds required to complete this prodgect without further financial support.

: There for, it is important to note--that Each Premier in Australia is also an independent Minister of Trade for their state.


: This enables them to seeking investors from outside sources and international investors independent of the Federal Government Trade office Austrade MLA.

: There for working united with the recognised Muslim leaders of Australia we can negotiate with purchases of our Australian products- Cosmetics, Upholstery, Preservatives, Sources, Bush Tucker vegetables, Arts and crafts. Aboriginal Paintings, Aboriginal Artifax, Tourism

: Several years ago I put a proposal to AFIC to hold talks with Malaysia Government. The proposal was accepted by them but Australian officials are dragging the chain. If we don’t move soon we will miss out. Considering we are a major supplier this would be criminal.=

http://www.halaljournal.com/index2.php?page=article&act=show&d=2694

: Malaysia and other countries have expressed interest to invest in Australian companies and many other investors from other origins.
We need our State Premiers to act- and act now.=

: The 'only way' start to fix things for Aboriginal People is to establish a wide range of products and production manufacting that 'they' control, , operate under their 'own umbrella.

: They do require some assistance to establish those sorts of companies farms and projects..

: There for it is vital we have the cojoint investments throught Australia to give them that oportunity. Its also their right and their turn.

Foxy not much space left. Ask me any questions..

btw - the person Forrest mentioned we believe in OOP is AKA Dickie.( Just didnt want you to worry)

I understand Foxy, rest assured I no you never have anything but the best intentions.
I grieve for Aboriginals, I bought 5 children up, for a sibling, two wed Aboriginal girls.
I am uncle to their children and dozens of others.
Self praise is no recommendation but after starting life as not the best person, too much self interest, mid 20,s saw me switch on.
I try to mentor people, thats why I think I am in the right job.
Foxy I have seen whole family's arrive at work, years ago, just after the roadside pay car left, taking every cent a man had earned for two weeks work.
I see one survivor of 22 trainees on one site , each sacked worker got five final warnings, much more chances than I would get for you.
Foxy I understand it will take time, it will take effort but I know some from within this community, who are not educated think no Aboriginal should have to make the effort to better them selves.
What do I say to the great young man who has jumped every hurdle, climbed or made it past every obstacle and will one day be an Aboriginal superintendent?
We must not look to past sins for todays answers but we must not think only one side must work for a better future.
I had a job, casual but well paid for every one of those who failed not one took it up, we can do better.

Dear Belly,

What you say makes a lot of sense.

I've still got a lot to learn about life,
about people, about so many things.

All I can do, is, as you point out, hope
that things will improve for us all - if
we're prepared to work at it. But again
as you point out - it's going to take
people willing to be helped, and willing to
work as well.

How to get them to want to work, is going to
be a problem that I don't think is going to
be easy to solve. It may take generations
before it's achieved.

Foxy

Its quite difficult to try to short cut the proposal to State Government for Aboriginal People.
Now pls dont take this the wrong way but as you made no comment - nor asked any questions do I take it your not really interested.?
Its quite ok if you not.
Just dont want to try to compress 350of it each time for nothing.

I think that Foxy treated the idiotic and paternalistic 'proposal' from PALE&IF quite correctly by ignoring it, as did its Aboriginal objects and the rest of us.

No more oxygen from me on this one.

Belly, it is clear to me that you are indeed a good, well-intentioned individual.

Foxy, I'm sorry, but you are almost as patronising and paternalistic as PALE ("How to get them to want to work"). The reason many Aboriginal people are the way they are is because of such attitudes. You should (both) watch the film "The Rabbit Proof Fence", and "Bar-b-q-area" and learn from them.

We have much to atone for without insulting these people further with bizarre, unworkable, unfunded "proposals" - besides which no member of parliament would take such a document seriously. Politicians, in my experience, expect proposals to be spelled correctly (just for starters), and professionally presented, and they also expect them to be sustainable (that is, able to fund themselves in the shortest period of time possible). They are only interested in matters that get them voted back in.

CJ Morgan - I think I might consider joining you now that this thread has been compromised by self-serving interests (and they know who they are) too.

Nicky

Dear PALE&IF,

I'm sorry that I wasn't able to respond to you earlier,
I had family problems to deal with.

No, you're right. I can't help you any further.
Although I wish you all the best.

Dear Nicky,

I've seen the film, "Rabbit Proof Fence," several
times actually.

And I've also read, "Why Weren't We Told?" by historian
Henry Reynolds. Have you?

Throwing words around like, "Patronising" is very easy
to do, however you don't know me at all to be able to
make that judgement.

Morgan

We don’t care what you think. As the Malaysian Prime Minister liked it +the Minister of Agriculture as well that makes you look pretty darn stupid .
The QLD Minister for Aboriginal Affairs also liked it and offered some funding! As did: Peter Beattie...
Irrespective we don’t have to explain anything to you and we are sure you could never follow what I just ran past Foxy anyway.
HOWEVER as this thread was about helping Aboriginal People and we are ‘sincere’ in our efforts to do something- I was happy to think others like Foxy were interested. The truth is we also need sincere people to support it. I had hoped Foxy might be interested.

Now even IF we can`t get all the States to agree to support this project and least we tried. Which is far more than YOU have ever done.

It was put together to also divert the cruel live export trade to with chilled and provide an opportunity to regional and aboriginal to own their own companies.


If you knew anything about Global Trade you would know that Halal Vegetables Cosmetics Meats are a 3to 4 trillion dollars industry and growing fast.

We can either open ur country towns again with jobs and schools and train our people or we send all our products in raw materials.

The links we provided Foxy are OUR Own projects we put on the table.

We have been working on this for five years now.

It looks like brains however only belong to other countries!

Its pretty clear Yabby was spot on in his observation that you Nicky are are just Jealous of RSPCA QLD AFIC and PALEs efforts to divert live exports while creating jobs for aboriginal people.

Yes Foxy its a joint proposal from RSPCA QLD AFIC and PALE which was ignored by Animals Australia- whom Nicky will tell yous she supports.
The difference is our RSPCA QLD CEO like PALE supports 'everybody' working to help animals.

We also have engaged Australias first aboriginal inspectors.

We have never come experienced such nasty !

PALE&IF: << Which is far more than YOU have ever done. >>

You know nothing about me and my constructive involvement with Aboriginal and Islander people over the past quarter of a century or so.

<< We have never come experienced such nasty ! >>

Do try and learn to write in comprehensible English. Nicky's right - your so-called 'proposal' wouldn't get past a politician's office flunky. It looks like it's written by a child or someone with an intellectual disability.

OK - that's more than enough oxygen now.

Foxy, while you frame your ideas in such a way, you are clearly favouring the assimilation (force the British culture and values down their throats) philosophy rather than an integrative approach. You are showing a certain impertinence in "how do we get them to want to work". A work ethic is a social construct applicable in different ways in different communities and cultures.

Has it occurred to you and PALE that the Aboriginal people may not WANT "help" in the form that you seem to want to force upon them?

PALE,when - precisely - did the Malaysian politicians "like" your "proposal"? And the Queensland politicians? Peter Beattie, in case you haven't noticed, is old news, and you never have provided any information on progress of any of your "proposals" in six years. Nothing recent on your website/s since God knows how long ago.

As for nastiness - you shouldn't dish it out if you can't take it, and if you're going to dish it out, you should at least try and make it intelligible. And perhaps you could cite the reference where Yabby claimed that I am "jealous of RSPCA QLD AFIC and PALE's efforts...."

Even Yabby would not say anything as bizarre as that.

I'd also be fascinated to know just what role PALE played in the "we have just appointed the first Aboriginal Inspectors". What were the selection criteria? Were they specifically Aboriginal identified positions? Or don't you know?

CJ Morgan is right, nothing you write would get past the office junior in an electorate office. I can only presume someone else wrote whatever it was back in the dim and distant past. A bit like the submissions to the Senate RRAT Animal Welfare Committee - they were irrelevant and largely incomprehensible, advertisements for PALE slaughterhouses, and demands for everyone in the movement to fall into line with PALE, nothing more.

Nicky

I often think my passion leads me to mud holes, but after reading my last post I can not avoid its the way I think.
I however can not ignore each of those failures [trainees] felt separated from those they worked with.
Every one of them clearly was to shy to mix with others, many had problems at home that over whelmed them.
I do not propose separation, jobs for Aboriginals only, but we must change too understand the differences in our cultures, our daily lives.
Right now, sorry not prepared to change this view, some within this community see reconciliation like a cargo cult.
We have done a dreadful job for 200 years lets get it right this time.

Dear Foxy

That’s Ok; I know it’s hard to take in all at once. We are of course posting on OLO for different reasons than yourself. You come in to relax, i understand that. Ours is to let people know the programmes are out there. We are very excited about them. The fact that the Warren Pitt when he was Minister for Aboriginal Affairs in QLD was prepared to get behind it with funds is encouraging.

One of our most dedicated helpers originally contacted us via reading of our work in regional areas on OLO. There is a meeting this week with Tony Burke soon and it will be put on the table. However State by State with Federal Government support is required

I was going to tell you of the RSPCA QLDs Trainee Inspectors and the other programmes until of course ‘yet again’… disruptions.

At least you have a bird’s eye view of how these disruptions start thread by thread.

Belly, the QLD RSPCA CEO hasn’t made trainee jobs separate from anybody else doing the course. “What he has done is to include them.”!

This enables them to take control of their own affairs and also care for animals.

That is just one small part of our programme and it’s a step in the right direction.

These working are ‘extremely happy’ I can assure you.

Foxy. We do appreciate your interest in helping aboriginal people and I have noted Animals

There our passions as also We enjoy all of your comments and wish there were more like you.

Take Care foxy.

Dear Nicky,

Sorry, but you've got me completely wrong.

I'm certainly for the preservation of the Aboriginal
culture - if you'd re-read all of my posts you'd see
that quite clearly. You have to take what I said in
its correct context.

Dear CJ,

Thanks for understanding.

As always, it's greatly appreciated.

Dear Belly,

I know that you mean well, and that's appreciated as well.

Dear PALE&IF,

Thanks for understanding.

Belly,
I commend you for your perspective and commitment. Good on ya mate.
I have no problem with people who try to do something in good faith.
I also agree that self praise is no recommendation but stating what you have and/or continue to do puts what you say now in a fuller more meaningful context.

What I object to are those people who do nothing and simply criticise those who do.

It is one thing to speak from experience, knowledge and or reason (which you do) but it is another thing entirely to climb on a emotional hobby horse with out the benefit of any of the above attributes and bombastically assert some misguided (ideologically based solution). Which clearly our predecessors did. To admit this as citizens, say sorry and try to find an appropriate solution is only common sense.
As I said in other posts if you don’t want to help the people on their terms get out of the way of those who do. A few other posters would do well to ponder this.

I have some experience with working with aboriginals but not a lot. I do understand the cargo culture from my time in PNG.
I believe it has a lot to do with the systematic destruction the indigenous culture therefore identity within themselves and up to where they fit in the world.

Without this many have lost motivation and so too make the transition to being able to live in both worlds comfortably.

We can’t stuff the genii back into the bottle now but a different approach is needed.

The question is how do we reinstate their ‘self’?
The nth American Indian model? The NZ Maori model has more problems than GWB personally in Tehran. Any ideas

Dear examinator,

You've nailed it. That was what I was trying to say - but
obviously not succeeding. It is this image of' self'
that needs to be achieved that is so problematic after
all these years of being put down by our white society.

That's a good place to start.

I'll write more later - have to run now - am taking mum
to the doctor's.

Have a great day,

You truly have nailed it examinator, its that self image we must rebuild first.
Those who fail to understand we must not let ourselves fail again have my sympathy.
What ever it takes I hope Rudd has a plan,please have one Kevin.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&cr=countryAU&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&hs=mYc&ei=pJqWSfiuNoKUsQOD0emBAQ&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Graham+Dillon+Aboriginal+Gold+Coast&spell=1

http://www.nit.com.au/news/story.aspx?id=17078

Foxy



You will find the Newspaper very interesting

Graham Dillion btw is one of the people we have worked with for many years and family friend. Just a few people behind this project.

Bradley Saunders
A/Assistant Director
Partnerships and Innovation
Strategic Partnerships Office
Department of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Policy

"And May I say what an Amazing man."


Mr Mark Townend
CEO RSPCA
(Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals)

Asmadi Bin Md. Rahani Operation Manager, ICMC Healthcare Sdn. Bhd.

Humane Society International Who said the following for our web page-

Humane Society International is in full support of the HKM, PALE, AFIC initiative to create a more humane life for farm animals and to improve slaughter techniques. The establishment of Humane Halal abattoirs is a giant step in the right direction. We look forward to an opportunity to work with them in the future to achieve these goals.”

Only by working together with people and animals especially in regional areas swill we improve conditions for both.

One of the things I would have liked to have told you about Foxy was the trip to Japan with the aboriginal dancers:) It was really quite funny.
Perhaps another time, everyone had a ball .
Sponcered Aboriginal Dancing for the Children forever.
With 'ALL' of the funds going back into the 'kids 'to keep it going year after year.

Anybody can do these things. If we all just did a bit more instead of talking about it

As for your digs about our proposal to work with each State Premier what a pity more people dont at least try.

So far we have 'two interested' but need more.

I think its clear no matter what we post- be it our work with Aboriginal Communites, Muslim leaders, Farmers or RSPCA it will been attacked.

Our Organisation prefers to work with RSPCA QLD The Humane Society and for that we have been bullied for years and some of you- not all have supported it.
How sad.

Dear PALE&IF,

Thanks for all the links.

I don't for a minute doubt the good work that you do,
and I wish you well with it.

I was very involved in my local community - both professionally,
and with volunteer work. However due to my health problems,
and family problems, - I've had to cut down on a few things.
I've got quite a lot on my plate as it is.

Anyway, Thanks for thinking enough of me - to want to share.

All The Best

Foxy

You’re most welcome. We might not agree on Political Parties but I know your fair dinkum about us do something for Aboriginal People.

What get up my nose is the huge amounts of funds that have gone into projects overseas as a joint effort by both sides of Politics and Churches and Islamic Councils.
When they same requests are put in for our own Aboriginal People the Churches honestly don’t want to know about it.- Most not all.
Steve fielding is the absolute pits.

Try to find time to read that news article I gave you printed by the Aboriginal people themselves over the next year.

You’re probably going to find it as a real eye opener.

I felt really sorry for Kevin Rudd because I think he really wanted to do the right thing and say sorry.

Admire him for that. Problem now is going cases filed for pain and suffering.
He’s created a nightmare for himself. As much as I work with many people some others are anti ‘whatever’ is suggested.

They hijacked Kevin on Australia day and I honestly think it was in poor taste after accepting the nomination for the award.

I am sure Kevin Rudd won’t forget it any time soon.

Nobody likes a slap in the face when they have reached out as Kevin Rudd did.

That wasn’t right to do that on that day at that time to Mr Rudd IMO.

You and I look like happy a beefup on your other thread :)

Take care fair Lady.