Few of us would deny that teen binge(excessive) drinking leads to several unwanted community wide Consequences. Speeding, dangerous/aggresive behaviour,violence, property damage and the inevitable medical consequences.
If the purpose of alcopops tax was to reduce teenage binge drinking it failure was predictable simply because it sought to fix a symptom rather than the cause.

I have argued before that from a market perspective that discretionary items that have medical consequences should be priced to reflect the “real” cost (i.e. a tax that funds those medical consequences as in tobacco in the US). In this way it’s user pays you use a little you pay a little tax and vise versa. In this way the right to drink isn’t stopped.
The liquor industry lobbied that a liquor wide tax would affect sales…profits…and the perennial big stick, jobs. I reject this argument on the two grounds.
• First the status quo simple subsidises the company profits by taxing even non drinkers by making them pay for the predicable costs of their consumption of their products.
• Secondly and more fundamentally we as a race need to face the real costs our of our life style choices. Tragically it’s cheap to consume and prohibitive to pay for the consequences.
Notwithstanding this man has always had the need and will continue to find ways to alter their mental states by external means. Banning alcohol has proven to be impossible in a democratic world and merely gives rise to crime and shifts the problem to alternative. This in its self is suggestive of a more productive line of investigation.
In context of curbing teen drinking what do you think are some PRACTICAL ways in which we might do this?
Keep in mind people and their capacities vary greatly. School education, better parental role models and rearing techniques may be options but one need to consider how you would do this and what other options are there.

Dear examinator,

Teenage binge drinking is a problem
that's very close to my heart.

My nephew is a binge-drinker, causing
his parents, family, and us, a great deal of
heartache.

The two most difficult things appear to be,
having other outlets for entertainment
that are not alcohol related, and saying
no to peer pressure.

If we could have educational programs that
emphasised that it was allright to say, 'No,'
to alcohol. If teens could be educated to
encourage each other to have fun without
alcohol.

In my nephew's case what helped drive the message
home was meeting a couple of teens who had suffered
the consequences from binge drinking. This was
arranged through the local police.
It appeared to have an effect.

The other thing that my brother did (in desperation,
when nothing else worked)was re-locate his son
(with an older brother,
and his family,who kept an eye on him)to another city.
This got my nephew out of the company he was keeping.
And, out of the routine of the consistent binge-drinking.

It's working so far, but for how long, who knows?

examinator

As far as the alcopops are concerned, I think legislating to reduce their sugar content might have been more effective than taxing them. If they didn't taste so sweet, they would soon lose their appeal for younger teenagers, especially girls. Some of these drinks comprise almost 50% sugar.

Another good thread examinator thanks.
Because of my age and the habits of working men in the 50,s and 60,s I have lived with binge drinking.
Timber towns in the southern Highlands would have heaps of beer bottles as high as a car until the bottle collector called.
Dads arrived home drunk most nights and they passed it on to children.
Two people very well known to me are full on alcoholics, both interestingly tell the same story.
One is mid 40,s one mid 50,s, both tell of standing outside pubs at night looking in at dads laughing and joking with mates.
They both tell of wanting desperately to get old enough to join in, and that just watch each night became pure joy as they waited.
Seen proud mums and dads giving baby's in Nappy's a drink? and the visitors laugh and applauding?
We sew the seeds of this problem still, we must be the first to act to stop it.

Binge drinking (teen or otherwise) is a growing problem.

I suggest make the penalties for public drunkeness higher and possibly a user-pays approach to public hospital and other services when the result of gross stupidity and acute self-abuse. Do the same for drug users too.

Col

This is a problem that has to be owned by the whole of society.

As pointed out by Belly, most of us have contributed in some way to the growing levels of binge drinking, whether through our own drinking patterns, our taciturn acceptance of heavy drinking or even just through turning a blind eye to the developing situation. We have to work together and come up with creative collective solutions. Simplistic, blame-the-victim, user-pays penalties just won't cut it.

We're all part of the problem, and as examinator has quite correctly judged through the instigation of this discusssion, we all need to be part of the solution.

Christian revival is the way.

Its always the way.

When some of the Welsh revivals broke out... whole police districts virtually closed down such was the complete life changing experience of receiving Jesus Christ into the lives of the common people.

Getting set free at becoming "born again" is so common:)

A brilliant back-up is still AA and the 12 Steps.

Prayer to God opens any man/woman to complete freedom.

Governments need to encourage Christian revival just to lower crime rates and ease the pressure on society.

Bronwyn “This is a problem that has to be owned by the whole of society.”

The consequence of the problem is owned by all of society.

But the "problem" is limited to those individuals who lack the restraint and self control to resist binge drinking.

Ultimately, we are all free to binge or to not binge.

Being one who learned at a fairly early age, through experience, the negative side-effects of excessive drinking, I can assure you the problem I addressed in the shortcomings of my own behavior was my responsibility and mine alone.

The consequences of binge drinking are what ends up being “owned by the whole of society”, not the cause, the cause always has and always will be individual people acting irresponsibly.

Hence penalties for excessive and abusive drinking should suffer a penalty separate to those users of alcohol who treat their indulgence with responsible moderation. Therefore direct fines for public intoxication penalize the abusers, whereas higher alcohol prices penalize the responsible as well as the irresponsible.

Hence “we all need to be part of the solution”
Those who conform with notions of responsible drinking are already part of the solution, it is only those who choose to ignore personal responsibility and restraint who create the problem we need to solve

Gibo doubtless there are many who would benefit from AA 12 steps.

But the problem is many binge drinkers do not recognize they have a problem and if you ask anyone at AA, you will find out step one is for the alcoholic’s own acceptance / recognition of the problem.

I have an issue with the concept the thread is predicated upon. To echo Bronwyn, this isn't just about teenagers.

I think we'd be hypocrites to point our fingers at teenagers and tell them off, given that you can walk to almost any pub late at night and see a fair share of people incredibly drunk, who haven't been teenagers for many years.

The problem isn't teenage binge drinking, it's binge drinking, period. I've got to more-or-less side with Col on this one.

I can only confirm that part of my nephew's
problem is that he doesn't think he has one,
because he doesn't always drink every day.

Getting him to admit that he does have a
problem would be a big step in the right
direction.

In a north coast of NSW country village for 25 years I know of a weekend is set aside for the Massacre, thats what they proudly call it.
No women allowed 4x4s loaded down with grog a three day weekend of nothing but drinking.
Far from kids the average age is 25, year long story's about last years and looking forward to this follow.
Drinking is every day part of our life.
I can say without the Saturday night dances, still one some place within driving range most Saturdays drinking seems the only entertainment.
Blame the victims Col?
No most of us are not like that,give them something to do, we just have to do better answers may come in this thread but it will not be blame only the current drinkers.
Any teenage drinking party, any I have cleaned up after, sees beer half filled bottles hidden in shrubbery spilled on the ground, just wasted , some want only to be seen drinking.
I was no different for a very long time drinking propped up my social life.
No I still drink not as much not as often but sometimes if in company just a bit more than I intended.

Foxy “Getting him to admit that he does have a
problem would be a big step in the right
direction.”

Exactly

My partner has declared “tough love” on her one remaining son. She now refuses to support him in any way. He can end up hitting bottom and living in hedge-rows before she will enable his alcohol and drug dependency any more. She maintains her resolve principally by participating in regular meetings of Al-Anon and following the counsel of other parents who have been forced into dealing with their own out of control youth and family members.

Belly “Blame the victims Col?”

show me where I have suggested anything which "blames" anyone Belly or withdraw your gratuitous comment. I have merely placed responsibility for self control at the feet of those who deliberately ignore it, to the detrement of everyone else.

Maybe you can identify how someone, exercising their sovereign right to be a complete moron, is a “victim”?

As far as I am concerned Belly, the “Victims” are not the drunken bums but the families of the drunken bums who suffer the domestic violence, destruction of home and property through their family association with people who ignore all responsibility for self control .

Pretending binge drinks are the “victims” of either peer pressure or modern advertising is to presume they are cognitively incompetent.

If they were legally “incompetent”, they would not be allowed to vote in elections or hold a driving licence.

Maybe you defend them because the victims of their own incompetence are the sort of dullards who end up paying your union fees and whose votes put your labor party into office?

Binge drinking - like other self destructives excesses - is not really the problem.

It's the symptom of another deeper problem so find out what motivates this behaviour.

On the practical side, perhaps raising the legal drinking age to 21 (or higher) may reduce it but won't eliminate it.

It's also extremely unlikely, given our cultural disposition toward the social consumption of alcohol.

Col, although in general spirit I agree with you in relation to responsibility, I can't help but feel you have a tendency to go overboard in making your point and end up shooting just past the precise point you wish to make, instead grazing your toe.

Take your recent post - rather comprehensive, until you draw it back to the Labor party.
Honestly, ask yourself a few questions about relevance, and ask whether your point would have been considered more meritorious and less partisan if you'd managed to resist making the last few jibes.
Which is more important? Persuading people, or having a dig at Labor? I guess it's your call, but sometimes I think you make very good points but instead choose to sabotage yourself by opting for a few cheap shots. If you think I'm wrong then by all means, have another shot.
The 'Labor Party' has very little to do with this debate. Frankly, I don't think the Coalition is really all that different. Can you really draw such a significant distinction between modern Labor and the alternative? Why then, do you need to have such a dig at Labor when it's likely to alienate those who might be able to consider your central points?

(Though I should admit I recognise this because occasionally I'm also prone to having a dig at certain mindsets. Particularly when attempting to debate evangelists. Though in my defence I am at least trying to focus my points).

Col,
Consider these facts:

US Prohibition/punishments didn't stop or slow down drinking and drinking related problems. History comprehensively shows that deterrents don’t work well. Like locks they help to keep rational/honest people honest. Who amongst us is honest/rational all the time?

Pragmatically I doubt Government’s ability to bring in and enforce markedly tougher punishments.
Your assumption that it's a matter of restraint flies in the face of both reality and science.
• Historically humans seem to have a NEED to experience mind altered state both chemically and psychologically. Therefore it makes more sense to deal with the problem issue collectively instead of blaming the victim.
• Scientifically it is a well accepted fact that many people suffer physical sensitivity towards addiction to substances (genetic). This usually becomes apparent after the event, testing is not yet possible. To then blame them and state (blindly) it’s their fault alone is clearly myopic and counter productive. I suggest you spend some time working with these people to really understand their plight….it’s not black and white as you suggest.
• Medically some people have susceptibility to the same symptoms. This can occur in non drinkers too so how are you going to differentiate. My Aunt died of sclerosis of the liver and kidney failure yet she never drank (Any alcohol) the Drs don’t really know why. She was a struggling farmer’s wife.
• Most people can’t afford the cost of these treatments so the consequences of your attitude is that people would die
• While flawed I don’t see that taxing booze to cover the medical consequences is so bad. If you don’t drink or drink slightly you pay either a little or nothing and vise versa.
The facts (not ideology) dictate that something rationally needs to be done.
PS Tough love on its own is not enough to solve a problem all you do it move the problem from you. There is much more that can be done in concert.

YOU bought into this debate so no derogatary shots please.

Hi ya Brony
You're right in the sugar content in 'goon' etc was a cynical marketing ploy (to increase and perpetuate profit by attracting a new demographic) too far. (shades of Big tobacco’s amoral behaviour and later deceit).
I remember when ladies’ drinks meant Pimms and dry or Barossa or Porphyry Pearl (ask your Granny)… the latter two were awful muck.(I was very young)

Tragically the feathers have been released on a windy hill. I fear that no amount reducing alcopop sugar will make any real difference now.
This demographic with their level of disposable spending simply buys bottled spirit etc and adds sweeteners to taste now...That horse has bolted.

The recalcitrant attitude in the public regarding DISCRETIONARY drinking as a right is like the pensioner who wrote elsewhere that because of the Alco tax he now can't afford his tipple. The selfishness and logic failure there is palpable ....It's almost Like me complaining that because of Tax I can no longer afford Vintaged Bollinger or Chivas Royal Salute (30yo scotch)....awww poor baby.
Donations appreciated. :-)

TLTR “grazing your toe” yep, bit of overlap with the 33% wage increase thread

Examinator “US Prohibition/punishments didn't stop or slow down drinking and drinking related problems”

I have not suggested any “prohibition”

As to “punishments”

The justification for punishment which I have applied is not because someone happens to binge drink, I have purposely defined the penalty as a response for an individual’s failure to exercise personal responsibility in public.

My punitive preferences alluded to a monetary penalty,, thus suffering a loss of income means the individual will be less able to afford to indulge their excesses to the degree they would have done before.

When in the privacy of ones’ own home, people should be free to indulge their excesses as much as they want (I suppose so long as they keep the noise down – neighbours should not be disadvantaged)

“blaming the victim.”

I have not blamed the victim, like I said previously, the ‘victims’ are the folk who end up being harmed due to the violent excesses brought about by the irresponsible idiots who insist upon exercising their “entitlement” to indulge in substance abuse.

“My Aunt died”

Abnormal circumstances are no the basis for collective standards, unless we are to assume everyone is abnormal and no one is responsible for anything.

And I thought we were talking about aberrant, not abnormal behavior

“The facts (not ideology) dictate that something rationally needs to be done.”

Enforcing a culture of personal responsibility and accountability, with penalties for shortcomings therein, is a rational response.

“PS Tough love on its own is not enough to solve a problem all you do it move the problem from you. There is much more that can be done in concert.”

Somehow I doubt you have been required to deal with the issue in the practical sense. There are Al Anon meetings in just about every village, town and city in Australia, from the view point of their practical experience, I suggest you go and ask,
“tough love” is a point arrived at after all attempts at “doing things in concert” have failed.

Sniff Sniff Foxy
"I don't wuv you no more"(old song 'little blue man')
I noted that you've been unfaithful to me so now I'm going to sulk and never love again...Ok better now.Fickle aren't I? :-)
I understand the situation you outlined and have seen it several times before it is really quite devistating for the family and friends.
On the good side often it can sort its self out with love and age.
Col is right though the victim needs to take responsibility. Although that is nigh on impossible however.
Stats have shown that not all early drinkers go on to be irresponsible in later life.

Col

"I have not blamed the victim ... "

You just don't get it, Col. You keep saying you don't blame the victim and yet you're constantly putting the boot in to alcoholics and binge-drinkers. They are the victims here. The people who might be adversely affected by their actions, which includes all of us, are secondary rather than primary victims in this debate.

As pointed out by examinator, many of these people have a genetic and physiological predisposition to succumbing to the addictive effects of alcohol much more readily than others might. I'm one of these people, so the following comments are based on cold hard experience and much research, I haven't just plucked them out of the air.

Many people, quite frequently unknowingly, suffer highly fluctuating blood sugar levels which can lead to a spaced-out head, anxiety, depression and much more. They actually feel bloody rotten most of the time and alcohol is often the only thing they've latched onto at that stage that will help them achieve a feeling of normality.

It's very easy for people who haven't been there to be judgemental and tell these victims to just get a grip on themselves, when they actually have no concept of what they are asking those people to do.

That's where you're coming from, Col, and with respect I suggest it's a position of ignorance.

Col (cont)

"When in the privacy of ones’ own home, people should be free to indulge their excesses as much as they want (I suppose so long as they keep the noise down – neighbours should not be disadvantaged)."

This statement exemplifies the selfishness of the extreme libertarian 'You can do what you like as long as it doesn't affect me' position. I'm not advocating police raids or any intrusions on people's privacy, but if we all adopted your head-in-the-sand I'll-be-right attitude, no one with alcohol problems would ever receive help.

Even if they aren't annoying you or anyone else, they could well be in a position that requires professional help or broader community assistance. Measures such as taxation, advertising bans, age restrictions and more are designed to assist all alcoholics and binge drinkers, even those who don't overtly present as having a problem. That's what an intelligent and caring community does.

'Tough love' and penalties should only be used as last resort measures, and then only in conjunction with support and assistance to aid recovery.

Dear examinator,

Me unfaithful?

No, no, no ... never! (Well, maybe just a little -
blame it on the night and the music).
But, I've saved the last dance for you! :)

As for my nephew... I only hope that you're
right and he will grow out of it. Unfortunately
at present he's in a small rural town up north,
and I feel that not having too many outlets
for entertainment is part of the problem.

I say that it all comes back to being the responsibility of the parents.

Any under aged person, found drunk in a public place should be taken home and the wages/pension, or what ever income the parents receive should be garnished to pay the bill.

I am sick and tiered of seeing my tax dollars wasted on these types of miss fits.

I have been told that a druggie who is admitted to hospital for O/Ding can have up to 10 hospital staff attending only to have them re-offend at a later date. Meanwhile, some elderly lady dies in the waiting room waiting to be attended.

Enough is enough, wake up to your selves you do-gooders, it's time we re-claim our rights to walk the streets in total safety.

Make the parents pay. After all, they are the ones who are now being paid 5 grand to have these miss fits.

God I hate being negative, but what else can we do other than demand our rights as law abiding citizens

Foxy who?
Sorry no crawling back now I’ve moved on. That’s my last word I do have pride...Well, seeing that you asked nicely I guess I could be magnanimous. ;-)

Col,
Thank you for your measured response greatly appreciated.
Unfortunately you haven't read all my posts.
If you had you would known the following.
• My adopted dad was an alcoholic
• I spent most of my adult life involved in the front line dealing with issues exactly like this through various volunteer and community organization. Including 3 years as a suicide shift councillor and 6 years on trouble team in crisis intervention.
• Tough love on its own simply moves the problem there is more to it than that. On its own it can and often is interpreted as rejection which simply feeds further complex issues which can add to the intractability of the problem.
• I have in a family member who needs tough love i.e. He needs to know that he is loved BUT we/I don’t accept his antisocial behaviour.
I speak from wide battle hardened experience. I could note that had you seen more of the problem you might see that it isn’t only a matter of lack of self restraint it is far more complex. AA and Al Anon are good but don’t work for all.

I also referred to deterrents (the crimina/financial sanctions that supported the prohibition.) I could also point to double demerit points and fines over the festive season but still we suffer the carnage. Note also that while deaths are relatively declining (arguably safer vehicles) the debilitating injuries that have consequences on the public/economy are increasing.
Aunty’s demise was in context of the lack of absolute uniqueness of symptoms to charging the drinkers for hospital services (your suggestion).
Can I perhaps you view my posts more in a contextual frame than a line by line analysis.

Dear examinator,

I can't believe your magnanimity. You don't have a
selfish bone in your body. You've really gone out
of your way to make this sacrifice for little me?

But you know what? I've decided it's not fair of me
to take advantage of your bigheartedness. You're too,
too, chivalrous.

So keep your magnanimity and your
kind offer. I really couldn't forgive myself by
taking advantage of it. I'll simply have to live with
the fact that I've let you down, broken your heart.
Saucy temptress that I am ! You see I can't really
promise to stay faithful... And I wouldn't want to
break your heart again. That would be too cruel!

cont'd

I'll now go and drown my sorrows in a
few more glasses of wine... (I may
finish the bottle of red).

Cheers!

Bronwyn “you're constantly putting the boot in to alcoholics and binge-drinkers. “

Maybe you can show where I have put the “boot in” to alcoholics and binge drinkers gratuitously elsewhere (ie beyond a thread ascribed to that topic).

Until you can evidence such comments, I am at a loss to understand the reason behind your criticism, beyond, you simply trying to put the “boot in” me - re your last line

“I suggest it's a position of ignorance.”

As Examinator suggested

“YOU bought into this debate so no derogatary shots please.”

Examinator “Unfortunately you haven't read all my posts.”

No and I doubt you have not read all of mine either.

As I said previously, ““tough love” is a point arrived at after all attempts at “doing things in concert” have failed.”

“AA and Al Anon are good but don’t work for all.”

There is nothing which works for all, if there was, there would not be a problem in the first place. However, when people are raging out of control, the tactics and strategies of AA / Al Anon are a good place to look.

And the question then becomes “how much energy and resources should we spend trying to eradicate a problem which is clearly a demonstration in the principle of diminishing returns and take the step to punitive financial remedies and beyond that incarceration?"

Victorian State prisons devote a lot of effort to sorting out drug and alcohol addicts.

“Can I perhaps you view my posts more in a contextual frame than a line by line analysis.”

Most responses by most posters on most threads are going to be on a line by line approach, the holistic response is frustrated with the 350 word limit set by the OLO host.

Addressing bullet points remains a valid basis of response and is what I and most posters will continue to do, into the future.

Foxy, you are turning into a real Madonna (the pop-singer that is, not the catholic effigy).

Keep it up.

I do so appreciate bad girls.

Dear Col,

Me turning into Madonna?

I wish...

No, sadly, I'm more the Anne Hathaway
or Megan Gale type.(except for my mane of
red hair).

Anyway, Thanks for the compliment.

Col,
The important part of my comment about reading my posts was in answer to your challenge that I didn't understand the problem. In hind sight perhaps I could have just listed my experience.
BTW I haven't read all your but I would suggest I've read most since I’ve been on this site. I'm a prodigious reader.

You over interpreted Bronwyn’s comments she was responding to the binary nature of comments. You do tend to take a hard line (Black or white, anything else is rubbish) on issues and commenters. Specifically you seem to be clearly saying here that any substance abuse is SOLELY a matter of lack of personal control and never a victim.

Both Brony and I are saying that by definition and experience isn’t necessarily that cut and dried ACROSS THE BOARD.

Anyone who is in a negative situation beyond their control is POTENTIALLY a victim only specific details will determine THE conclusion i.e. medical proof of susceptibility to addiction. Prudence suggests with holding judgement until the specifics are known.

This in no way invalidates your personal issue and your suggestion of AA etc is a fair one. However, there are many more that aren’t helped by AA as are.

Likewise financial deterrents don’t work in cases of irrational behaviour. One can argue that in the house of an alcoholic a further financial impost of a fine is the LAST thing the family needs.

It’s not a matter of ‘sensitivities’ (something you have stated to me you don’t care about). On this site your opinion is not that of an esteemed consultant or boss simply one of many, common sense then dictates we all respond as such.

While I may consider my self as a reasonably knowledgeable person with a wider than normal experiences I am still dwarfed by others on the site but mine, yours, Brony's etc experience are still valuable input

Examinator “You over interpreted Bronwyn’s comments”

Regarding “put the boot in” and “position of ignorance”

Now, which part of did I “overinterpret”?

“Anyone who is in a negative situation beyond their control is POTENTIALLY a victim only specific details will determine”

So please explain when someone has drunk to excess,
How do their efforts qualify as “beyond their control”, bearing in mind, every alcoholic did not start out as an alcoholic, they had to exercise some personal effort over time to achieve that status.

“This in no way invalidates your personal issue”

AA not my “personal issue”, AA is an organization which does help a lot of people and you would be making a serious error to ignore their contribution

“Likewise financial deterrents don’t work in cases of irrational behaviour. One can argue that in the house of an alcoholic a further financial impost of a fine is the LAST thing the family needs.”

If all income is being committed to the purchase of alcohol, it is, in fact going to make no difference at all but it will bring forward the day of “hitting bottom” and that might actually be a better outcome than delaying the event.

“On this site your opinion is not that of an esteemed consultant or boss simply one of many, common sense then dictates we all respond as such.”

I never assumed otherwise but thanks for devoting some of your valuable time to condescend to tell me so. You have just reaffirmed something I have observed in most of your other posts (and it is not a particularly nice trait).

Col
A short note, Condescension isn't in my nature. I very never knowingly delve in to that and rarely into serious ad hominem. I WORK at eliminating any aggression from my posts. If it is there then it is unintentional.
I WAS TRYING TO HELP . I simply didn't know if you were aware of the general opinion or not. Your posts often seem to jump to combative conclusions.
It would appear that my writing style has problems.
All I can say is that if you interpret it that way, sorry.
I am the least likely person other than Foxy and PS to attack you….condescension to me is aggressive and unnecessary in this setting. Against my nature that would mean that I think I’m better than you I’m not and would never say/imply that. I disagree with some of what you say or even your approach the next step is too far..

Foxy

What are you doing?

First examinator and now Col (and goodness knows who else!) How many more of my serious debating partners and opponents are you going to distract with your lethal feminine charm? :)

On second thoughts, if you can distract Col's razor sharp mind for a bit longer I might have half a chance of extricating myself from the hole I dug a few posts back!

Only joking, Col, don't pride yourself, just yet!

Col

"Maybe you can show where I have put the “boot in” to alcoholics and binge drinkers gratuitously elsewhere (ie beyond a thread ascribed to that topic)."

When I said 'you're constantly putting the boot in to alcoholics and binge-drinkers', I was referring, as you well know, to THIS thread.

Though, now that you've mentioned other threads, it is a well worn theme of yours to sink the boot into the victim. A recent example is the NINJA home loans debacle, where you straight away blamed the borrowers who'd been conned, not the lenders who'd done the conning. It's a very predictable pattern with you, Col. Whether it's poverty, crime or addiction, your first instinct is always to blame the victim.

Of course you won't even acknowledge them as 'victims'. To you, they're merely individuals who were stupid enough to make bad 'choices'.

Col (cont)

I hate wasting my time like this, but just to prove I was quite within my rights to use the term 'constantly', I will list the examples of you 'sinking the boot' into the victims in this debate, i.e. the people who have a problem controlling their alcohol consumption.

"But the 'problem' is limited to those individuals who lack the restraint and self control to resist binge drinking."

"Maybe you can identify how someone, exercising their sovereign right to be a complete moron, is a 'victim'?"

"... the “Victims” are not the drunken bums but the families of the drunken bums ..."

"... with people who ignore all responsibility for self control."

"Maybe you defend them because the victims of their own incompetence are the sort of dullards who end up paying your union fees and whose votes put your labor party into office?"

"... the ‘victims’ are the folk who end up being harmed due to the violent excesses brought about by the irresponsible idiots who insist upon exercising their 'entitlement' to indulge in substance abuse."

Six examples, in as many posts, of you passing derogatory judgement on people with alcohol issues, reasonable justification for using the term 'constantly' I would have thought.

If your mother had an alcohol problem (of course I know she wouldn't, but just imagine if you can that she did) would you make any of the above statements in her presence? No you wouldn’t, because they are ‘sinking the boot’. You wouldn’t do it to your own mother, but you’ll happily do it to people whose circumstances you know nothing about.

That’s why I said you were speaking ‘from a position of ignorance’. You’re ignorant of their circumstances. That’s not, as you claim, ‘sinking the boot’. It’s stating fact.

Dear Bronwyn,

What am I doing?

Having a bit of lighthearted fun...

Although, I'm not sure about my
'lethal feminine charms.' If someone
really made a move on me - you wouldn't
see me for dust.

I'm a Leo, a red-head, a hard worker,
a wife, a mother, a hazel-eyed dreamer,
who probably posts far too often on OLO.
However, deep-down, I adore examinator,
he's wonderful (sigh).
I think CJ'S great, and I find
Col quite a challenge.

But you, Dear Lady, like Fractelle, are a
totally Class Act!

Now to get back to the subject of this thread.
Part of the problem with alcohol is that it is
so publicly used in the most respectable circles,
and marketed and advertised in such a powerful way.
Socially, its acceptable mainly because it is a
traditional "drug," well entrenched in our culture.

This adds to the problem of trying to teach someone
that they should give it up. You're right Brony,
we as a society should take the responsibility for
what we have created and find ways to alleviate
this problem.

Examinator “Condescension isn't in my nature.”

Well for it not to be in your nature, you do a very convincing impression of it.

Let us consider the words of Shakespeare.

Mark Anthony speech following the death of Julius Caesar

“And Brutus is an honourable man”

Now simply substitute ‘Brutus’ with ‘Examinator’ and “honourable” with “not a condescending” then follow the rest of the speech and you will understand what I am getting at.

Bronwyn “I was referring, as you well know, to THIS thread.”

It would have been far more convincing an effort on your part, if you had actually quoted me directly or at least referenced the threads you talk of, simply by their names and the date of commencement.

Until then, your criticism sound more like the baying wails of a lonely critter crying out from a hilltop for someone or something to acknowledge its very existence.

“Of course you won't even acknowledge them as 'victims'. To you, they're merely individuals who were stupid enough to make bad 'choices'.”

We all make bad choices, I have made some doozies but – I am not a’ victim’ and from reading my threads you will find I have never, ever allude to anything which could possibly describe me as such.
I carry the consequences and burdens I have acquired from my mistakes without complaint because they are the product of my choices and scars which mark the experiences of life and sources of personal growth which, among other things, makes life worth living.

And from that perspective, I make no distinction between me and every other individual on the face of the planet.

It could almost be described as some egalitarian principle (and I am not quoting from anyone else, to the best of my knowledge)–

“we are all equally entitled to suffer the disadvantages of our own stupidity , although we have no right to inflict those disadvantages upon others or feel entitled to any special dispensation for them.”

So, I thinking of you as I quote from Bill the Bard

“Methinks the lady doth protest too much"

Foxy…
“Having a bit of lighthearted fun...”
OLO is not a place where no one should ever take themselves too seriously

“we as a society should take the responsibility for
what we have created and find ways to alleviate
this problem”

My personal belief is: the only way to ‘alleviate’ that and many other social problems, not the product of abject poverty, in the long term, is to expect greater personal responsibility from every one for their actions and I endeavour to start with myself.

AA, Al Anon and the like are priceless activities devoted to mopping up the blood, and I would remind everyone, AA is populated by those who have previously walked all the way to the end of the path binge drinkers and the like are on at the moment.

However, accepting personal responsibility for the consequences of our actions is what prevents the bleeding in the first place.

It should be on the school curriculum. “Personal Accountability 101”

btw mmmmm I like being an challenge… and I am told do rise to them (oh now whose blushing)…

Dear Col,

Thanks for your advice.

But the problem for us with my nephew is that
he doesn't accept responsiblity for his drinking
because he won't admit that he's got a problem.

His parents and all of the family, have tried
everything within our means to help him see
the problem - and we thought we had succeeded
when our nephew had a health scare (suspected
stomach ulcers), and he was hospitalised.

However with time the emergency passed, and now
he's back to his old habits. He's young, so I hope
as examinator said earlier, he may grow out of it.
He's such a great guy in every other way.

Col
Point noted.
Rather than set so much by a contextually inappropriate speech (I think you are stretching the point beyond reasonable application) perhaps the point should be that criticism is potentially justified in BOTH directions.
If nothing else I admit my faults, those of my style and logic and endeavour to fix them.

Your reiteration of your points to foxy appear still distort reality through your B/W filter.
No one is saying that AA, Al Anon aren't worthy organizations and worth the effort just that they aren't the only or necessarily the best way considering the individual’s involved needs. Specifically AA relies on submission to a higher authority fine if you’re religious. There ARE other problems/ short comings as well.

As an example many who returned from the Burma railway did so without a belief in God and had drinking issues…the root cause there was later to be called Post Traumatic Shock ( known then as ‘shell shock’). Under those circumstances how is the vet not a victim and drinking not a symptom?
PTS has many causes. Take a male victim of pack rape who subsequently turns to booze is this not a symptom of a deeper malaise rather than simply a lack of self control?
AA in these cases has a limited success rate the real solution was elsewhere.

Who is to say what is traumatic to the point of losing control…?
The key fault with rigid attitudes is that they impose unrealistic/unreasonable expectations on others who don’t have your abilities. In that context I can see how my seeming libertarian, left (sic) views are merely a reflection of my acknowledgement of the fallibility of people and myself. More specifically I reserve judgement until I have the facts and avoid unsupported generalizations.

Bronwyn,

Tell me more about this blood sugar problem?

Foxy “But the problem for us with my nephew is that
he doesn't accept responsiblity for his drinking
because he won't admit that he's got a problem”

My partner’s son is of the same temperament.

He blames the world for everything from his of money to the headaches and paranoia he suffers yet igores the drawbacks of his chosen habits.

Through Al Anon, my partner has found the strength, direction and resolve to decide how she needs to respond to him, to decide, of his behavior, what she is not prepared to accept and to resist the guilt trips she is placed under by her son.

Al Anon is an organisation set up specifically for the families of alcohol abusers by the families of alcohol abusers and parallel organizations exist for drug abusers too.

And your nephew is not the first alcoholic who lives in denial of his problem, Al Anon might not have all the answers but I doubt there is a scenario which they have not seen before.

Finally, as your comments reveal your personal concerns, Al Anon is designed to benefit not just your nephew but the entire family.

In short, it is there to offer support and help to the families who are being destroyed though the selfish actions of the alcoholics.

It is worthy of consideration :-) .

"Binge drinking - like other self destructives excesses - is not really the problem. It's the symptom of another deeper problem so find out what motivates this behaviour."

Wobbles makes quite a reasonable point.

Without having experienced it myself, I'm sure there are quite a few reasons why people start down the road to binge drinking. Here are a few possible reasons from everyday observation.

• Feeling traumatised, down or lonely and wanting the bad feeling to go away.
• Keeping up with the boys.
• Wanting to be accepted by a group.

Also, I recently read an article that suggested each time you eat a particular food, it leaves a specific genetic marker in the body's cells that may remain for up to 2 weeks. So by consuming the same food over many years, we humans can leave a strong imprint on our cells which may influence future consumption patterns and maybe even permanently affect our genes. From memory, the medical term for this research was epigenetics. It could explain why some people, as a flow-on effect of past consumption patterns and habits, feel a craving or need for certain types of foods or substances (eg drugs and the desire to sniff petrol etc).

So, for example, if society in the past had a role to play in making people feel lonely or wanting to disassociate with others, and this had the flow-on effect of inducing people to take certain substances, society also has a role to help heal the problems to the extent that it was responsible for causing them.

Houellebecq

"Bronwyn, Tell me more about this blood sugar problem?"

There are several types of blood sugar problems. The one I'm referring to, and the one I'm more familiar with, is where a person's blood sugar levels fluctuate from one extreme to the other.

They will spike up much higher than normal on the ingestion of sweet and/or high carb food or drink and then one or two hours later they will drop to abnormally low levels. This drop occurs because the pancreas produces too much insulin, and the end result is that the brain is starved of the glucose it needs to function properly.

The brain requires about 60% of all the available glucose in the body and if it becomes glucose-starved various cognitive and behavioural problems will occur. These include mental 'fog', depression, anxiety, anger, forgetfulness, insomnia, lethargy and more. Eventually, if left untreated, the condition (Hypoglycaemia) leads to insulin depletion (Diabetes).

There are several contributing factors. Heredity automatically makes some individuals more susceptible, and lifestyle factors such as emotional stress, inadequate nutrition and lack of physical activity can often lead to the development of Hypoglycaemia in these people.

Experiencing any three of the following four symptoms may indicate Hypoglycaemia.

1. Depression or moodiness
2. Lethargy or tiredness
3. Memory impairment or poor concentration
4. Sucrophilia or a preference for sweet foods and drink

A four hour glucose tolerance test will determine the true situation. It can be treated very successfully through the adoption of specific dietary measures and through nutritional supplementation.

Most alcoholics, if tested, are found to be Hypoglycaemic. They're usually zinc deficient as well. Alcohol gives them the energy to function, both mentally and physically, in a way they wouldn't be able to without it - unless of course they had had their Hypoglycaemia treated, which most aren't even aware they're suffering from in the first place.

Alcoholism is a proven bio-chemical disease state. It's much more than lack of self control.

http://www.hypoglycemia.asn.au/

Foxy, if it's any consolation, I drank like a sailor as a teenager. I more or less grew out of it.

(Though I must confess that on rare occasions I still drink a little more than is wise, however it's never to the stage of throwing up or impaired coordination, just feeling a little flat the next day).

It was my experiences as a teenager that taught me that drinking to excess usually leads to regrets.
There's a tipping point, where drinking stops being an enjoyable social activity and becomes something negative.
My experiences as a teenager taught me quite a lot about responsibility, regrets and how to help out others in these situations.

There's a certain irony in that my experiences drinking meant that on more than a few occasions I was in a position to be able to persuade others not to drive drunk. (Though on one occasion I had to steal their keys for the night. I'd do it again in a heartbeat).
Had I been a person who avoided alcohol entirely and had little experience in such matters, I doubt the people in question would have taken my advice seriously.

It's entirely possible your nephew will grow out of this and be in a better position to understand others with this problem.

not as easy as it seems is it to stop our young ones being the future drunks in our society but not all are of bad nature some can stop at one or two but others binge to the end

a lot is peer pressure bordem some think they can be the adult

the goverment really has done very little to limit our kids from alchol as it is readliy available

their is more abuse from alchol than any other drug thats not legal and i beleave thats true

the habit of drinking is when one sees another drinking they would like one their self

the goverment has the control of the alchol

maybe it be better that way then we would know that its not the local super market selling the drug alchol

and yes it is a drug a legal one that takes peoples lifes for reasons beyond their control becuase they have abused what they drunk and all awareness has gone from their brain

the other is the bordem of being isolated so they choice to drink alchol instead of water

our population is growing more each year and alchol is the legal drug that damages more lifes than any other drug

i can only hope that those who are helping their faimly and friends as you are foxy that their life turns around for them and to everyone out their who has binged

also its just not the kids who binge drink its also adults

but in reality we are responablie for our children and if they do wrong we tell them but their are those who don't care what the parent or gaurdian have to say

my answer is take them off the shelf

most of all get it out of our super markets and let it only be gotten from the pubs bottlo

its cheaper for them to buy a large 700ml bottle and a bottle of make up coridial than it is to buy a six pack of crusiers or what ever

stay sober ,ya stay alive

huffnpuff

From The Bottom Of My Heart,
Thanks to Everyone for all your advice
and comments.

They are deeply appreciated.

All The Best,

Binge drinking, or any other type of alcohol abuse is unfortunately not really a 'teen' problem. One of my sons tells me that with increasing the cost of alcopops it is cheaper to get drugs. At least that appears to be the perception, whether true or not I have no idea.

We need to acknowledge that getting 'blotto', 'wrecked' 'off my face',etc and then 'chundering' is seen as having good Aussie fun and having a great night out. Those terms were some of the first 'Australian culture lessons' I was taught more than 30 years ago. It puzzled me greatly at the time. I was used to thinking that having a great night out was to connect with somebody of the opposite sex. Chundering and being incoherent gets in the way of that!

ColR, someone I do not tend to agree with on many things, pointed out that an alcoholic does have the choice not to live the life of a drunk.

It is also a simplification to suggest that the rest of the family and friends have no part to play and can only wait for the alcoholic to 'admit' they have a problem.

As ColR's partner is learning in Al-Anon, as I had to, there are a number of us- family, friends, workmates- who are aiding and abetting the alcoholic to continue with their particular mode of self destruction.

I'm only amused that anti-government ColR is apparantly turning to government agencies to apply the big stick to those who abuse alcohol by using financial threats. That'd be like water of a duck's back. When drunk somebody is not thinking rationally about any consequences. When drunk the propensity to behave anti-socially, even criminally is rather high.

It is not only the alcoholic, but also those close to the alcoholic who need to take responsibility and examine how we are complicit.

Al-Anon is an excellent place to go for support. Foxy, I recommend the parents of your nephew at least have a look. Just doing a 'geographical' is not going to really change anything.

Dear Yvonne,

Thanks for that. And I couldn't agree with you more.
Doing a geographical was a point of argument with
my brother (but that's another story). Anyway,
it didn't help much at all.

I will refer the agency to my brother's family.
And we'll see what happens. It's a difficult situation,
but We're definitely not giving up on him. As I said,
he's such a great guy, and really deserves help.
I love him so much...

Bronwyn,

That's really interesting. I would say throughout my whole life, at any time of the day I could easily lie down and have a 3 hour sleep. I usually sleep 8-10 hours a night also.

I've been diagnosed with depression a couple of times and been medicated, I've self medicated with heavy use of drugs and alcohol at times, but when I look back the constant symptoms have been lethargy, tiredness, memory impairment and poor concentration.

Randomly I've seen health professionals to look a little deeper but they usually just think I'm depressed. You know how quick doctors take per 2 minute consultation these days. It has occurred to me my root problem may be physical, but getting someone like House MD to diagnose me seems far fetched. Thanks for the info, I will look into this more. Either that or invest in a coca plant...

Houellebecq

"It has occurred to me my root problem may be physical, but getting someone like House MD to diagnose me seems far fetched."

I agree.

The Australian College of Nutritional and Environmental Medicine has a list of registered practitioners which may be of use to you.

http://www.acnem.org/modules/mastop_publish/?tac=Referrals

I found an excellent doctor through this list who practised in my area and was across both conventional and natural medicine. Unfortunately he's since returned to England. I've since found another doctor who, while not as knowledgeable in the area is at least amenable to natural therapies, and I go to a naturopath as well.

This combination seems to work. The average MP isn't trained in nutrition and doesn't understand the causal relationship between nutritional deficiency and illness. But they're useful for testing and monitoring, plus it can further your own understanding to be able to distil from two sets of opinions.

If you haven't already done so, completing the NBI on the Hypoglycaemia website is a good starting point.

Good luck! Hope you find the answers to achieving better health.