Dear Belly,

I wouldn't worry to much about the claim
'harming' the union movement
in this case.

Most workers in the mining industry are on
lucrative individual contracts and union
membership is only marginal.

Besides, Alcoa has announced plans to axe 13,500
jobs worldwide and reduce smelting output by 18%,
while freezing salaries and hiring. So why wouldn't
workers try to get something while they still can,
when they have nothing to lose anyway?

They have great role models in company CEOs, who
still manage to get million dollar payouts, when
their companies go bankrupt.

"Think about jobs first," says Julia Gillard.

Is that what company CEOs do?

Very interesting Belly that you as an ardent unionist should express such a view.

You’ve certainly got my full agreement.

Spikey “Thank goodness for CJ Morgan who knows about ambit claims – “

“Ambient”: definition per dictionary.com –

1.of the surrounding area or environment: The tape recorder picked up too many ambient noises. The temperature in the display case was 20° lower than the ambient temperature.

2. completely surrounding; encompassing: the ambient air.

3. "surrounding, encircling," from L. ambientem (nom. ambiens), prp. of ambire "to go around," from amb- "around" (see ambi-) + ire "go." The ground sense of "revolving" led to "encircling, lying all around." Ambiance as a term in art, meaning "atmospheric effect of an arrangement," is an 1889 borrowing from Fr.
Synonyms “completely enveloping”

"Ambit” definition per dictionary.com –

1. circumference; circuit.
2. boundary; limit.
3. a sphere of operation or influence; range; scope: the ambit of such an action.

4. an area in which something acts or operates or has power or control: "the range of a supersonic jet"; "a piano has a greater range than the human voice"; "the ambit of municipal legislation"; "within the compass of this article"; "within the scope of an investigation"; "outside the reach of the law"; "in the political orbit of a world power" [syn: scope]
Synonyms : boundary, bounds, compass, extension, extent, range, scope, space, sphere.

Regarding “and the difference between 'ambient' and 'ambit'. Why are the usual suspects so poorly educated? And so ready to condemn what they don't properly understand?”

I wonder who that usual suspect might be - looking at the listed posters, Oh, it must be me.

So, in the context of what I wrote

and looking up “ambit claim” in Wikipedia

“In negotiation, an ambit claim is an extravagant initial demand made in expectation of an eventual counter-offer and compromise.”

(noting “Ambient claim” is not listed)

“Ambit claim” is the correctly understood and comprehended expression,

whereas “ambient claim” would be all a bit of a nonsense.

Regardless of Spikey's pontificating, pointless and high-handed attempts at admonishment.

Not that I am making the point, Spikey was.

Our malignant troll-in-residence, Spikey, not only illustrates but even illuminates her pig ignorance, once again.

game, set and match

Spikey give it a miss miss, in this case I am proudly very well educated.
A lifetime of front line defense of the union movement, fact is my proud movement one day must stand bravely and remind the world there is a difference union to union.
This rat bag headline damages all who are unionists.
Remember wage justice is not under review here, its never ever going to be, no boss is being stood over ,no boss would be weak kneed enough to give such a rise.
My whole point in starting the thread is to highlight some truths.
People who think as Col R does are armed by idiots who think they serve a union with such claims.
Unions must take on board criticism from non unionists and our own, yes we find some leave the movement after such childlike headlines.
recruiting is looking for non unionists to come on board not frightening them away.
Unions may not know it but the future calls us, changes are here, never ever again can some run riot, threaten or intimidate, there indeed is a difference.
Yesterday I acted for members of another union, failure to pay superannuation for 8 months!
Maybe some time spent in looking after what they have rather than, well leave it there only a fool damages the reason they exist.
Oh yes I do honestly think much of the anti union rubbish we see and hear is wrong but proof we need to better sell our product.
Solidarity forever, but not if it means blind support for stupidity.

Col Rouge

No amount of bluster or wordy citation from the dictionary will cover up the fact that you and at least one other didn't know what an ambit claim is. (Having been schooled in the bad old days when Latin was deemed to provide useful insights into the meaning of many English words, I know the difference between the Latin 'ambiens' and 'ambitus'.)

But more to the contemporary point, anyone who's been around in industrial negotiations - on either side of the bargaining table - will know that both sides posture with ambit claims as a warm-up to the hard bargaining that will come after the shouting.

The ambient temperature around the table can rise under the pressure of ambit claims.

I can always rely on you, Col, to get upset wen your errors are pointed out. You always resort to personal abuse. So if it lets you feel a bit better about yourself, I'm happy to be your 'malignant troll-in-residence' even if your mixed metaphor of 'pig ignorance' is somewhat infelicitous.

Anyone for tennis? Col's taken his racquet and balls and gone off in a huff.

Belly,

I'm with you comrade! But it's still an ambit claim and everyone knows it. That's part of the game both sides play. Let's not over-react to a newspaper headline.

Cheers