examinator,

There really is no need to be so defensive in attitude. This is a discussion not a hate session. (For me anyway)

If a pseudonym is not important, then the corollary for you is to get rid of the ‘examinator’ name, and use your real name.

I have portrayed extreme examples of indoctrination but added those of a lesser nature as well. Did you miss that part?

Who said anything about Atheists raising children? I merely pointed out instead of specific religious indoctrination, a wide world view would be preferable if it is expected that a child will reach an optimum of its potential. This is not rocket science.

As for an Aztec child being raised by Atheists instead of sacrificed at a young age, what would you choose. I know what I would. I suppose you realise this is getting bizarre.

My experience agrees with the opinion of Bernard Shaw: “The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.”

I ask, to which madrassas would you be happy to belong? Please, no cultural relativity in the answer.

Again, I ask, would you rather be a Papuan before missionary involvement or after? Please think about the implications of answering.

And, once again, I ask, would your mother have preferred whether to think she is going to god or see life as it is. She most likely never had that choice. If your mother was indoctrinated by a religion, which leads her to think that position, is that ethical? Atheists and other rational thinkers say it certainly is not.

Atheists are promoting choice for adults as to whether to believe or not in the supernatural. What do find so repugnant about that?

If someone is provided an upbringing as outlined my Bronwyn and they choose a religion, then Atheists would fully support that choice.

It is difficult to see from where you are coming, or in fact, going.

David

Spikey,
"Why select Islam to make this obvious point?"?
Because Islam is the only religion where the "fanatics hear the voice of their true 'god' urging them to destroy 'unbelievers'" and then carry out their god's commands...
by flying commercial jetliners into skyscrapers,
by remotely detonating mentally retarded women in crowded markets,
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8UHNN081&show_article=1
by decapitating school girls
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4387604.stm
etc, etc, etc

Indeed KMB... Spikey seems oblivious of this absolutely fundamental point.

He would rather pick on my typo's than address issues.

Spikey.. I'll keep this short and simple...

Core value of Christianity "God so loved the world" John 3:16

Core Value of Islam "Fight those who do not believe" 9:29

Do you see it?

Go one.. read it again... just in case.

In both the Hamas Charter and events on the ground in Gaza now..you are seeing 9:29 in action. It was 'in action' way before the Israeli's invaded. Every rocket fired would fulfill that verse.

Try.. just for once.. to actually look critically at this primary difference between Islam...... and Christianity (and pretty much every other religion)

That difference is the call to violence.

Hey Polycarp and KMB,

If only it were that simple. How can you be so blind to the Christian Crusades? Or child rape by Christian clergy? Colonial oppression and slavery in the name of Christianity? The Inquisition? The Reformation? Witch hunts? The burning of 'heretics'? The civil war in Northern Ireland? The most recent genocidal religious Balkans War?

There are none so blind who...place total faith in a few words from the Bible while ignoring centuries of religious violence including that perpetrated or condoned by Christians and Christian teaching.

Perhaps you've read Mark Juergensmeyer's "Terror in the Mind of God. The Global Rise of Religious Violence" (University of California Press, 2000) which was published long before 9/11?

Or Regina Schwartz's "The Curse of Cain: The Violent Legacy of Monotheism" (University of
Chicago Press, 1997) where she argues that along with Judaism and Islam, Christianity is a monotheistic religion, and therefore, an exclusive and violent religion.

Hi there Spikey...

I don't ignore any of those events.

The problem with each one of those events is... you need to analyse them more deeply. Each one has it's own characteristics that differentiate it from the others. But let me place an umbrella statement over them all, and that is, you still (hard as it might be for the secular mind) need to link/compare/contrast them with the Teaching and life of Jesus in order to evaluate them in regard to Christianity as a faith or set of doctrines.

If we don't do that, then we might similarly condemn secularism or humanism by the actions of those who claim they follow it. Agree?

1/ CRUSADES.
-Growth of Muslim world/Shrinking of Byzantine empire
-Prohibition of Christian pilgrimages to Holy land by the Muslim Caliph.
-Desire for extended temporal and spiritual influence by the Roman Catholic Church.
-Looming military threat from the Muslim world to Europe/Byzantium.

2/ INQUISITION.
Post Islamic Spain, it was considered neccessary to be absolutely certain of the loyalty of every person to Christendom.

3/ CHILD RAPE BY CLERGY. There are no 'factors' here..it's just plain wrong by any measure, specially the direct condemnation by Christ.

4/ COLONIAL OPPRESSION. was nothing different from inter-tribal oppression but on a larger scale. See what happened in India/Pakistan/East Bengal when colonial 'oppression' was removed?
5/ SLAVERY. Yes.. this one can be linked to the Bible. It was argued from those within the status quo (holding slaves) that the concept was not condemned by the Bible (and indeed it is not specifically). I argue though, that the spirit of the NT is totally against such an idea.
5/ REFORMATION.. huh? that was a GOOD thing. Reforming the Roman Catholic Church from such ideas as 'Indulgences'=selling certificates of forgiveness.

6/ WITCH HUNTS. please read the detailed history there for Salem. It was about interfamily power struggles.

CONCLUSION. Christ and His Word stand alone in History as the epitomy of Grace and Peace and reconciliation of man with God and man with man.

You are all missing the point. All forums should fall under our laws of the land. Australian courts.
Right now they dont.

Yes we need to fix that but it should be under the control of the Australian Government and not just about religious threads but ALL comments made.

Why should forums be allowed to act outside our basic laws?

Nice everybody seems to think because our organisation is working to support RSPCA QLD regarding live animal exports it should be allowed to be subject to defamation .

Tell me people is that because you view Animal Welfare as less important?