We see in another thread parents blamed for the actions of a 15 year old clearly room to debate there.
But every day we see drowned children, kids run over by the family car in the drive way is that the parents fault? ever?
Just watching a mum talking away while blindly pushing bub on to a pedestrian crossing in front of a car without looking?
Or driving in a street and seeing a beaut young child no more than 2 or 3 walking alone in a street full of traffic chills me.
A cloths peg holding the swimming pool gate for easy opening.
And that most dreadful thought expressed after such a death+we never thought it could happen to us, that type of thing only happens to others+
Yes sometimes parents clearly are to blame.

Dear Belly,

If you followed mothers and their children around
all day long, you'd discover that many of them spend a
fair amount of time actually telling their children
what not to do. As you pointed out there are many
danger situations especially for a pre-school child.

Such things as crossing a street, fires, boiling water,
sharp knives, and poisons, et cetera.

Of course parents try to protect their children as much
as they can - and they also try to teach them discipline
and self-regulation, while at the same time trying to ensure
that their methods of discipline don't eliminate that vital
and dynamic quality which makes children act like children.

Parents aren't perfect. They often make mistakes.
They don't always get it right.
However if parents use, with love, their parenting skills, they
will do the most important thing to insure their children's
growing up to be psychologically secure. They will
with their love and guidance ensure that their
children grow into peaceful adults,
instead of violent and hostile persons.

Is it ever the parents fault when things go wrong?
I can't answer that Belly. It depends on the situation
and the type of parent. As we all know - there are as
many different styles of parenting as there are people.
And I would assume that yes, in certain instances -
the parents would have to take responsibility.

Each child is unique, as are the parents,
and the situations in which they find themselves.

I hope this makes sense.

And, that I'm not just raving on here...

Belly, as a parent I believe its always my fault. For good or ill, my child is my responsibility.

So what does a good parent do? They bring up a child trying to avoid all the physical hazards that life throws up. They teach their child about the dangers of the world (and how to avoid them) while encouraging the child to take (sensible) risks in pursuit of achievement. They teach their child to be well-mannered but assertive, kind-hearted bur realistic, hard-working but carefree. And if you have a second child, it starts all over again, but you're still trying to bring up the first. Its a complex, exhausting and fraught business.

One of my uncles used to say "Parenting is the hardest work I've ever done. I gave it my best shot, but I don't think I did a very good job." I don't think any of us do a very good job. We just do the best we can. And when disaster strikes some other family, I think "there, but for the grace of God go I."

I don't think you can blame the parent in most cases as most deaths of children are just plain accidents.

What is not an acciedent is when a parent of a minior has no idea where their child is at 9pm. That is no accident, that a a failure of ones responibility, a flaw in thier 'duty of care' one might say.

As the farther of 2 children, now 19 ans 17, I can tell you that as parent, both my wife and I knew exactly where they were at all times and up until they reached 16 they were not allowed out at night unless they were with a responsible adult. Even then they had very strick rules to obide by or they would be grounded.

Call us old fashion if you wish, but believe me, they appreciate it in the end.

Responsoble parenting is no accident, it is very hard work, work made even harder as more and more parents today allow thier children to become unruley.

I understand the trials of parenting, as I have said being the oldest of a very big family helped me learn that.
Bringing the last 5 of my siblings up after dads very early death added to my learning.
Then 5 of my siblings kids dumped on my mum and me too.
However not every parent, surely that is easy to see? does a good job.
Yes take your eyes of them for a second and tragic things can happen, kids will be kids.
But how does a little girl under 3 find her way out to the street?
We used child proof gates and minders who knew they had our family jewels in care.
Those drowning deaths? could it always be just bad luck?
See its not, some parents are not watching, how can we look at the daily sight of mum actualy pushing that pram or stroller on to a pedestrian crossing without looking?
Would you walk in front of a car?
Parenting? yes its no easy job but we must understand some mothers do not do it well, some often remind us every time a youth gets in trouble.
That is often wrong ,like the 15 year old in that other thread his dad is dead his mum called the police who killed him its mad to blame her.
But sadly truly,some mothers need to do better.

Belly,
Agreed, Many parents are not as caring as they make out to be when something goes wrong. For example, the kid that unfortunately was shot by police. His mother was saying what a good kid he was, but she allowed him to leave the house in a rage after an argument, it has been said he was a member of a neo-nazi group and his favourite drink was bundy and coke. I do not know how correct that is but what 'good' parent would allow a 15 year old to drink bundy and coke and be a member of an extreme group.

A while ago the was a thread here about a 14 year old girl being taken to a doctor by her school nurse and being prescribed the 'pil' without her parents knowledge or approval. This is legal and it makes me wonder how 'good' parents supervise their kids. Some posters on the thread said it is not unknown for girls to be menstruating and their parents have not had discussion about that, or sex, with the girl. To me that is unbelievable and I guess the boys get no information either.

How come you can see groups of kids hanging around shopping malls well after dark and regularly it is reported that kids are left in a car while parents are gambling or out drinking.

Any time one goes out one can see examples of parents without control of their kids and the kids just do what ever.

Sometimes I think there should be courses for parents, other than intercourse.

Belly,
Absolutely, for the sake of sanity (yours) you need to differentiate between genuine acts of 'god' fate or more colloquially put 'excretia happens' rather than always looking for blame.

I find it pointless to judge blame without also understanding the circumstances (CONTEXT) in which the event took place. If for example a child drowned because a mother had ‘pegged’ the pool gate open then in the absence of other evidence she was negligent in that she knew better.

Are parents responsible for the outcome of their children? Within certain or specific conditions the answer is possibly yes but again it depends on …you guessed it… Context.

I think the song ‘the cat’s in the cradle’ says it all. To me that song has always been a salutary warning to me.

The question of culpability in a situation also depends on circumstances. If the parent(s) allow their child to roam at night at say 7-8 then trying to discipline at 14-15 is a pointless exercise. If the child then is involved in violent crime then clearly the parent(s) are responsible morally but the question of culpability is less clear.

Likewise a child kept in an environment of a strict stifling authoritarian environment (including a rigid religious one) one can expect problems once the real world collides. I can’t count the number of cases I dealt with where the primary problem was a too strict or restrictive family. First generation migrant children often have identity problems which if not handled carefully can and do turn socially toxic.Was the father of the Boxing family responsible and culpable for what happened? the courts and I think he was. He knew better but ingnored the probable consequences.

Short answer, is yes but it depends

Examinator you need not concern your self with my sanity.
A bit more balance from you could be an improvement.
Banjo, have you ever tried to control a 15 year old who is determined not to be controlled?
Remember before you answer 3 police officers could not do it.
We humans in every thing we under take get it wrong some times, parenting is often a place some fail, most posts here say so.
After a death, sometimes needless death, we group around the surviving parents, good people do.
But in the quite of your own home have you ever thought that should not have happened.
Act of GOD? no please what rot.
Some are far better parents than others, once mothers and fathers had much better teaching about parenting skills.
If we hide our heads in the sand how can we ever fix this problem?
We never thought it would happen to us, or an act of God is hiding the brain from the light of day.

When I bought this property, I only looked at places 20Km or more, out of town. When My kids wanted to go anywhere they needed transport, at least until they had a drivers licence, & then they needed car keys.

It ment a lot of miles, for their mother, & me, & a lot of sitting around football, cricket, or athletics training, or competition, but was worth it every time.

The few local kids got together to work their horses, or to play cricket, & were all "good" kids.

Later chores would earn a trip somewhere they wanted to go, or some petrol for the paddock basher.

I am very glad my kids could not walk into town, so we always knew where they were. It would have been much harder, if they had had access to some of the town kids, before they had learned when to say no.

Belly
Apologies, my communicating skills have failed me.
I was being balanced in essence I said that it is the circumstances that determine if the parent is responsible or not. There is never any black or white answer as in one size fits all.

I can’t comment on specifically on the circumstances or child as I don’t know either and therefore would be unwise and gratuitous to offer an opinion. All I can reasonably do is talk in generalities. The situation is the nightmare of all children.

I was offering the only practical advice I can. Is that in most situations apportioning blame is as counter productive activity is a self defeating activity what is needed is calm rational solutions (plan of action) . The objective should be “what do we do now to avoid a repeat performance?” As a matter of fact we had a son who threatened suicide about that age. We were stunned we applied the above principals and we still have difficulties with the son but he’s now 25.

In some instance it is better to HELP the child face the consequences of his/her actions than protecting them from it. Difficult, true but all the screaming, recriminations etc won’t help, if anything will aggravate the under lying problem (what ever that is).
It is times like this that parenthood seems at its worst. But if it improves or gets worse will depend largely on the parent’s wisdom and patience.
Conclusion: I make NO inference of blame/Responsibility.

Dear Belly,

I'm just tiptoeing into this thread one more
time to wish you and yours, All the Joys of
The Season, and hoping to share more time
with you in cyber space next year, 2009.
May the New Year be a good one for us all.

Dear examinator,

It's been a sheer pleasure sharing time with you
on this Forum. I wish you and yours, all the Joys
of this Festive Season, and much Health and Happiness
in the New Year 2009.

"Take one dream. Dream it in detail. Put it into
your own hands. See its final outcome clearly in
your mind. Then mix it with a little effort and add
a generous portion of self-discipline. Flavour it
with a wholesome pinch of ambition. Stir briskly
with confidence until the mixture becomes clear,
the doubt separated from the resolution.

Then bake at an even temperature in a moderate mind
until the dream rises and is firm to the touch.
Decorate with individuality. Cut into generous
portions and serve with justifiable pride.

Approached in this manner, life is a piece of cake."

A Merry Mistress and a Happy All Year
Everyone...

All The Best,

Belly,
The point I was making is that there are many instances where parents are, or partly, to blame for injuries and bad things happening to their children. Sure there are other instances where no one is to blame. e.g. A limb suddenly falls from a tree, but these days it is likely that the parents will endeavour to blame someone for that.

I have seen two women with strollers from opposite directions meet on a pedestrian crossing and stop for a talk. Once I was having a go at a high school teacher about the kids lack of disipline and he said to me "Mate its too late when we get them and what can you do when parents give a 14 year old a bottle of Buorbon and a carton of smokes for his birthday". If an under age kid is having sex then changes should be made to the supervision he/she gets. How many kids are not taught water safety skills? Parents find time for their own pastimes but dont take the kid to the local pool or surf club for instruction.

Of course there are parents that do the right thing by their kids, but many do not and I know you cant wrap them in cotton wool.

Far too many people talk about their 'rights' these days but few are willing to face their 'responsibilities'

Foxy thanks and to each and every one who posts here, yes every one its been a pleasure spending time with you.
I truly wish each and every one a great Christmas and new year? even better.
The subject of this thread is like being in a black berries patch, it some times hurts but reality is, we all know it at some level, some deaths need never have happened.
At times I highlighted real life over the past few years, a family that had every problem you could think of including child rape.
The result I feared has come to pass that family fragmented, children have children.
Dad sits alone unable to see any one of his 7 kids again ,or his wife.
I have no doubt in this case parenting was poor to non existent.

Belly, yes alot of the time, it is in fact the parents fault!

Every time that my mother tries to give me a lecture about
my many alleged faults, I remind her that I was just a simple
little tadpole, swimming along innocently. If she got
kinky that day and created me, I had nothing to do with it :)

Just remember, parents have children to satisfy their own hormonal,
instinctive needs. If the kid does not turn out as they wish, it
is easy to blame the child, but at the end of the day it was their
decision, not the child's decision to be created.

Until people stop expecting the State and Federal Governments to run their lives more deaths will occur.
Right now they are spending millions fencing a creek because a day care centre failed in their duties to watch the kids.

Just like all those Mums and Dads who expect others to fence poolsetc simply because they are too slack to watch their own kids.

The point is even to put up a fence you have to have a licence.

Yet any idiot can have kids. Its got to be changed.

You have them-YOU raise them- Not us or the Government.

Its always the parents fault unless its an accident.

I tried to start a conversation about the increase but always with us deaths of little kids in swimming pools.
Or the death toll of children run over on their parents drive way.
The kids who wander next door or 3 houses down the road unnoticed and get savaged by a chained up dog.
I intended we talk about the pressures of parenting vs the social chatter that lets some take their eyes of the kids.
Yes that pedestrian crossing story, right now you can see it in real life any day.
Child watching is no easy job, but some do it far better than most.
Some mother over Christmas will turn her back for that fatal split second.
We can do better , if we try, if we understand, if we never again hear anyone say , we never thought it could happen to us,

Belly have you noticed that you keep refering just to mothers. They still do the majority of care but dads have the same responsibilities and are taking on an increasing proportion of care.

We all neded to find that balance between letting our kids experience life and guiding and protecting them.

Never an easy answer, our own view of the world can cause the space our kids can live in to be really small or very large.

R0bert

RObert you and I know that is true however we also know mums more often than dads have the kids at these times.
We could widen the topic to include children killed by step fathers.
Or go deeper into why some dads do not do their share of parenting.
My talking of mothers was not to suggest only they get it wrong.
But I can not retract my view many of the deaths need ever have happened.
We should educate both parents in parenting.
I think its a good idea, not however as some new age types are doing near here, dressing boys as girls with toy dolls to ? well I will not ever agree taking the maleness out of male children is doing them better.

PALE&IF, The causes for parental failures can’t be sheeted home solely to one cause. Having said that there are parents who abuse the system. The issue is far more complex than you seem to imagine.

Belly
Not every person has the ability to accurately assess all risks. I could shock you by listing the seemingly innocuous situation that has turned tragic. Just one the ubiquitous sand pit can be a disaster looking for a time:
• Redbacks, Funnel webs, and other assorted bities.
• Snakes. Small browns can kill and have been caught in sand pits etc
• Then there’s wandering cats who spread disease if mum is pregnant it can be fatal.
• Legionella has been found in gardens and sand pits.
• The list goes on.
I’ll bet that few parents cover the pit up every night and or inspect it every time before allowing Jr. to play.
Accident happen to everyone else is the common myth.
Water is a trap for the unwary a child can drown in 4cm of water.
Consider for a moment if pool fences weren’t mandated and therefore no standards applied
• How many pools would be fenced? Cheaper not to.
• Those that were built how safe would they really be? Who amongst us is an expert on risk? That’s a whole new ball game. To expect a parent to be across all the potential ever growing risks is ludicrous.
Hence minimum standards are mandated. Unfortunately standards need enforcement. ….. This costs money who’s going to pay? (user pays is the fairest way).

Sadly there are instant armchair experts everywhere who ‘’know better” and treat the law as optional or that activities are only illegal if caught i.e. mums that drive the children while talking on the mobile; Dad’s speed and cut people off while their children are in the car. Both these send subliminal messages to the children on what is acceptable at best and can be fatal at worst. Terms like Nanny State etc in this context are simply nonsense.

Hi examinator

Agreed there are many factors to it. However please keep in mind pool laws were also brought out to beef up councils with the old permitt and applicatation fees fines like parking meters.

These laws give false sercurity to people.

Now dont dont me wrong I can see the sense in making 'todays 'parents fence off 'their' pools.
After having said tha the older generation semed to have managed just fine by taking their parenting seriously and taking reasonsibilty.

On the Gold Coast as it is many other areas we have more cannals than Hawi. Most of the properties back onto water. Then we could look at the farms with the dams. The law states that farms over 3 meters dont have to fense pools. I guess thats because they figure kids would probably drown in one of the many dams before they found the pool.

OR maybe its because they feel country folk take me reasonsibilty for their kids.

Or it could be they thought- Nar the country folks will never take this pool fencing rubbish. They will tell us to go jump in the lake.:)!

Need I go on.

As A non parent I resent being told I MUST fense my pool because someone cant watch their own kids down the road.

Whatever happend to tresspass.
No sorry- Mind your own kids please instead of making everybody else pay five grand pluss because some unemployed chick down the road living off welfare having kids to 8 dads cant watch her own kids.

Or better still dont have them in the first place while you and I pay for that as well

Merry Christmas

Is it ever the patents fault yes it is! can any one ever say its never true?
Is the issue full of sadness and pain? yes always.
Could it have been avoided sometimes? yes no doubt it could have.
Lets look at some posts in the thread, we are mostly talking about children 1,2, or 3 years old.
Dead children, trespass? who the children?
How did we turn this thread into a debate about Queensland following other states in fencing swimming pools?
Or the costs of doing that? or maybe its the fact we are forced to do it.
This Monday morning would you still enjoy your morning swim if the next doors little girl or boy had drowned in it on Sunday?
We pay for pedestrian crossing, why? safety rails on cliffs, why?
Because we do value life, every life, how many, and there have been a few, who posted here with concerns about fencing costs or being law care truly more about that than life?

Belly, I for one don't think anyone should have to fence their pool if their yard is fenced. I have however fenced my pool out of 'peace of mind'.

Pool fences don't stop kids from drowning as they quite often drown from either climing over them, or by an older sibling opening the gate, in fact, it could be said that they instil a 'faulse sence of security' as most adults would assume that becasue the pool is fenced it is safe.

The bottom line is 'if you CHOOSE to have kids they are YOUR RESPONSIBILLITY. END OF STORY!

Poor parenting is like a cancer to good, well mannered kids as they paick up bad habbits from these 'dead beats'.

I remember when one of my shops was robbed and I said to the police 'what is wrong with these kids today?

He said "did you ever go to school with a 'scum bag'(not his exact words) and I said yes! He then said well two of these scum bags have got together and bread another scum bag.

How true was that!

Today many parents are stressed out. Time poverty dominates them and the children just do not get their attention as they should. It is so easy to make a silly mistake when attention levels fall. It is often a recipe for disaster. This is a matter for society and it is no good just blaming parents. It is a much bigger problem.
Sybil

rechtub, yes I have known cops like that, they should not be in a police station unless in hand cuffs or with a mop and bucket in their hands.
Sybil, quite right but it is not a public problem.
Well maybe we need to educate parents more but how do we handle people who should not have kids having them?
The intent of the thread was to highlight the deaths of young children, very young children.
But I can not ignore the facts, this season sees kids given motor bikes that kill and maim them, guns that do the same, some parents should not produce children.
Each death seems to see statements like I only turned my head for a second, or we never thought it could happen to us.
yes sometimes often, its the parents fault, rarely do they take ownership of that fact.

Until they do nothing will change. Makling people fence a pool who already have twelve foot double brick fences is simply a state government and local council fund raiser and nothing else.

As far as the cops comment he was spot on- except these days the two scum bags dont even get together and marry-
They just hook up for a night or at least an hour of it.
Then wow we have another single parent unmarried to keep feed educate until its 18.
Then it not over because each welfare person is entiled to free lawyers ...
Its a bit low putting the death of any child back onto the people who are already sensible enough to mind their own kids.

When are you going to wake up to the mind set of Governments and councils using kids deaths as fund raisers.
Thats ALL it is and let me tell you it doesnt stop kids drowning.

Nobody, NOBODY is reasponsible for their neighbours kids
Mind your own
END OF STORY- FENCE YOUR yard IN!!