“New Age” is an umbrella, a vague collection of belief systems. Some of these beliefs can be traced back in history, usually to Eastern practices; others are recent inventions of the mind.

In the bookshops I visited I found a greater display of New Age and Self-help books than of science books because there is a big demand for these books.
The New Age craze is now so prevalent that it is difficult to find a person who rejects ALL of these belief systems.

I’m starting this thread with the intention of poking a bit of innocent fun at our own or others’ (past) beliefs.
Admit it- you fell for an irrational belief at some stage in your adult life!
The discussions on OLO about Atheism, Religion, Evolution, Creationism, Demons and Witches can sometimes become a bit tedious or even very heated and emotional.
I suppose that a discussion like this one also has a mud-throwing potential, but hey, I think even mud has healing properties these days :)

Some of the beliefs I recall from the top of my head:

Magnets
Tarot
Crystals
Feng Shui
Inner Goddess
Inner Child
Auras
Energy Fields
Vortexes
Charkas
Blood type diet
Colon cleansing
Homeopathy
Chiropractic
Qui ja board
Astrology
Pantheism
Karma
Channeling
Reiki
Iridology
Psychic healing
Reflexology
Dowsing/pendulum
Runes
I ching
Iridology
Scrying
Meditation
Psychic healing

While I’m a skeptical person, I have to admit that some years ago, I fell in the Feng Shui trap that lasted almost a year.
A water element in my wealth corner, the colour red in my fame area, a collection in my relationship nook. An elephant facing the entrance, trunk up. You name it.
Phew…I came out of that stage unharmed:).
My poor children were relieved that mum wasn’t obsessed anymore about clutter in their bedrooms.

Had a bad experience with new age stuff.

In a personal crisis, I desperately needed to get hold of a crystal ball at short notice, couldn't find one.

A friend told me I could use any shiny surface, but the best I could do was this rather sleek dress material.

It didn't work.

I complained to my friend, but she told me I shouldn't be scrying over milled silk.

I hope people open up, we all fall or fell for some of this me too.
Well from a very Christian family I fell hard after not believing for most of my youth I was a born again.
Got over it then fell for a fortune teller who promised me great wealth, boy was she wrong.
Put the crystal over the door and the horse shoe.
Now? I an a sinner I haunt weekend markets but rush past new age stuff as fast as religions get the boot at my door.

Celvia,
Many many moons ago I studied with an astrologer Maurice Silver and joined the guild. I still have the very expensive books. Both Romany and Egyptian palmistry and of course Chinese and European astrology and even played with runes.
I often argued a variation of the chaos theory. Man is 90% water; water is influenced by minute gravitational forces, science hasn’t yet discover the cumulative effect of these influences on the delicate human mind.
There are approximately the same numbers of possible combination in a chart as there are variations of genes give or take a trillion or so. 'Feel the width not the quality.”
That was at the height of the craze. Why did I do it? Simple answer ....Girls.
Most young guys were into beer, cars and surfing while they were off doing these pursuits …I …well her hum enough said.

Now that I look more like a witch’s brew pot included. Women today either cross them selves or cross the road when they see me.

I remember and smile. My cultivated persona goatee beard, dark eyes intense stare thoughtful puffing on a pipe roll neck jumpers, tailored pants and leather coats and the Silver Star chart on a thong around my neck. (Mephistopheles image). I would sit in a piano bar man about the town like and wait observing like ‘the mentalist’ the effect was sublime at the time ,a little embarasing today. I was indeed a naughty boy. Karma has long since wreaked her revenge.
;-)

Hi Celivia

I'll bite :)

well.. I'll comment on one you included and one you excluded.

1/ Included "Feng Shui" I believe that proper consideration of layout in an office, home or work situation is critical for peace of mind and comfort. I say this because of very practical reasons..not spiritual.
I placed some skylight panels in the roof of my factory, such that when the sun rises...I get whacked in the face in the morning...then smitten on the back in the afternoon... *moan*

2/ Excluded. "Copper" it apparently has definite healing properties in some situations.

Finally, I'm still rolling my eyes over the this...

http://suprememastertelevision.com/bbs/board.php?bo_table=featured&wr_id=161&goto_url=&url=link2_0

which I encountered at the Mind Body Spirit festival in Melbourne last June.

Hear ye..hear ye..we now have the 'WORLD PEACE' vegetarian diet :)

What next will supreme master Ching Hai come up with ?

I fell for this stuff well and truly.

My weaknesses were:

1) Meditation - in a big way.
2) Crystals - I still have the expensive
monster (rose crystal pendant - set in
sterling silver) that I badgered my husband
to buy for my birthday one year.
3) Feng Shui - I drove my family nuts with
this one. Kept it up for two years.
4)Astrology - swore by it. Still check my
stars daily.
5) Angels, Gods & Goddesses - Oracle cards
and guidebook. What was I thinking?
6) Reflexology - It actually helped me stress out.
7) Chiropractic - This one my husband swears by
for his back problems.

Out of this list its the Oracle cards that I
have the most difficulty trying to rationalize.
It definitely was a WIT moment (what was I thinking?).

The cards came in a beautifully presented box that
read:

"Angels, Gods & Goddesses Oracle Cards' will give
you guidance and help you clarify issues in
your life. Think of a question, then pick one or
more cards to see what messages the oracle offers
you today. Featuring 45 beautifully illustrated
cards and an accompanying guidebook, this easy to
use deck is the perfect tool to help you through
life."

Don't laugh, I did actually use the cards.
I was having problems with my brother and I
didn't know how to resolve them. So I asked
the question, "What should I do?"
Picked up the first card and it read:

"God of Spiritual Healing -
An aspect of you, or a situation
in your life is in need of healing."

It freaked me out.
But it helped me muster the strength
to talk openly to my brother, which
made a world of difference.

reject the truth you swallow a lie. Christ is the only hope of salvation. all others are thieves and liars. repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is our only hope. all others are poor substitutes.

cont'd

I forgot to mention that my ancestry is from the
Baltic - which has a heritage of pagan beliefs.
We were the last Europeans to embrace Christianity
in 1386-87, and the transition from their previous
animistic faith took several further centuries to
permeate the folk culture.

This could explain my attraction to
anything that's 'different' from the norm.

What an interesting topic!

I was fortunate in that my parents did not have any beliefs they felt necessary to indoctrinate their children with. And I was lucky in that I grew up in countries that did not have a dominant Christian philosophy. So, grew up with little bias to clutter up my mind.

My confession is not 'New Age', but Christianity. I spent a number of years in my late teens and young adulthood exploring this. What I've found is what is perfectly acceptable in Christianity is seen as mumbo-jumbo if not under the 'Christianity' umbrella. I find the possessiveness of many Christians of God and truth very off-putting.

But then, I find some new Agers equally off-putting. I never cease to be amazed what some feel perfectly entitled to tell vulnerable and gullible people.

So, now I do not pay any attention to the 'other side' (I'm guaranteed to find out for myself!), worry about what the stars say about the future {I enjoy today and deal with issues today), only read Tarot cards to freak out my friends, find rolling a die can be just as effective to make a decision and quicker too, though your oracle cards sound lovely Foxy. You'd love my 'gypsy' tarot cards.

And I swear by meditation. It's great to get into the Zone.

Pericles,
Scrying over pressed silk, no wonder it didn’t work!
Next time try scrying over a bowl of water.
Never fails, according to a friend of mine.
For example: she ‘saw’, in the water, an image of her car, broken down.
About a year later, her car broke down.
She said: “Told you that scrying works.”
It’s a bit like praying for rain- it’ll definitely rain sometime in the future after the prayer!

Belly,
The horse shoe- too funny- my husband fell for that one, too. There’s one over the door. Not sure what it is for, I forgot- I think it has something to do with luck?

Examinator,
You seem to have examined lots; that’s quite a hilarious record! I’m sure the girls must’ve laved your company :)
I love that chaos theory variation mumbo-jumbo. Did it have a particular name or was it something you created in your own (chaotic) mind?

Polycarp,
Feel free to add to my list- it was incomplete, just of the top of my head. I should’ve included Falun Dafa as well.
I learned all the 5 exercises at falun dafa sessions, just to find out what all the fuss was about. It was very innocent and no pressure, just meditation, really, and lovely groups of people, no pressure at all.
The philosophy behind it is quite nutty, though, but they never even talked about that- I read the book to find out.

Yeah I, too, know some people who fell for copper bracelets. I think they dumped them after a few months; they leave your wrists with greenish marks, too. I imagine that if copper had healing qualities, copper miners must enjoy extraordinary health!

About meat eating, I roll my eyes too but only about the world peace - vegetarian link.
There can be truth in that vegetarianism is better for the environment because the amount of water and grain used by cattle is something that can be worked out mathematically. I let the experts work it out before I make up my mind whether to believe it. It does sound plausible.

Continued...

Foxy (white witch, LOL!)
Yes meditation is one of the things I’ve been exploring as well, and I think that as a relaxation it does have advantages. I wasn’t even sure if I should include it in the mumbo-jumbo list as when used as relaxation technique, it does seem to have some scientifically proven health benefits.
The reason I included it is because there are so many different types of meditation, some are quite nutty, like Astral Travel and Past Lives meditations.

I agree with you that reflexology, like massage, can help with stress, too.

I am so sorry (not!) but I DID laugh (loudly) at your Oracle cards story, thanks for sharing.
At least it inspired you to talk to your brother, so you got something out of it.
Talking about Goddesses- I loathe that ‘inner Goddess’ preaching.
I used to go to belly dance lessons for about 2 years and that was heaps of fun until my belly dance teacher apparently went through a silly ‘inner Goddess’ stage and started talking about “bonding with our inner Goddesses” during every class! Puhhleeaaaazzzzz! I don’t even believe in a god, let alone an inner Goddess.
I quit my belly dancing lessons, couldn’t cope with such nuttiness.

Sometimes when we enter a ridiculous stage, we still get something out of it, like you got something out of that Oracle set.
My embarrassing Feng Shui stage taught me that clearing up clutter does really clear the mind.
And like Polycarp said, even though Feng Shui might be spiritual nonsense, an organised layout of an office or house can have practical reasons and looks inviting to others.

“The cards came in a beautifully presented box”
Don’t they just! Much of the new age stuff comes really well presented, sometimes includes nice smelling candles or incense It can be hard to walk past it sometimes.
Perhaps we should be like Belly and rush past it!

Continued tomorrow :)

Cevilia, if you think about it, all this stuff, as with religion,
has a similar effect. ie. it makes people feel better and when
they feel better, it must be true.

To assume that we are completelty rational creatures is of course
a fallacy, the mind generally does not work that way. Every
thought is coloured with some kind of emotion. At all times
we feel something, be it happy, sad, anxious, fearfull, whatever.
These things all influence our judgement.

The way I see it, as humans evolved to have larger brains, we
also became more inquisitive, more questioning, searching for
answers. The more questioning that we became, the more we had
that little problem of anxiety.

The brain works on chemical feedback loops, to create what they
call homeostasis, ie balanced, not happy, not sad etc. When we
feel anxious, we feel uncomfortable and seek answers. Humans
are more content with certainty then uncertainty.

So all this stuff, including runner's religion, helps people
deal with anxiety and thus feel better. Whether its actually
true or not, is of course another story. Its their perception
to them, that matters to their frame of mind

I lied- one more post today.

Yabby,
Interesting. I suppose –at least for me personally- that one can still explore things, find something that makes one feel better, but at the same time accept that it still is mumbo-jumbo.
Do you think that people convince themselves that something is true when they know it’s not?

Anansi,
I’m very grateful for very down-to-earth parents, too. I had no religious friends either, in fact I don’t think I met anyone religious until I was about 11 and I remember feeling quite sorry for the person that he still believed, as a mature adult, in imaginary stories about paradise and heaven.
I really thought it was some kind of mental illness.
No offense to anyone (or perhaps a little bit), but this is what I seriously thought at 11.
Of course, now I know better, having read a few posts by Runner and Gibo.
My mother always reminded us, “Doe maar gewoon, dan doe je al gek genoeg” (“Just act normal, which is crazy enough already” - doesn’t sound quite the same when translated).

Hi Runner,
That’s pretty impressive, that you have never fallen for any other beliefs than Christianity. Have you ever had the temptation to explore other beliefs?
Have you belonged to the same denomination all of your life or have you changed directions at one stage?
I wonder if it’s hard to change.
My ex neighbours wanted to get out of their parents’ brand of religion (not sure what that was) and adopted the 7th Day Adventist beliefs.
They had really nasty family arguments, the family almost splitting in half over their change. I sometimes wonder whether religious people stick to a church so as not to upset their family.
I personally don’t see a change of denomination as a big deal- does it really matter, as long as you believe in Jesus and are a good person?

But anyway, how do you know that your brand of Christianity is not mumbo-jumbo? How can you be sure that your choice is the right one?

*Do you think that people convince themselves that something is true when they know it’s not?*

Cevilia, now THAT is an interesting question :)

I think that most people have conflicts between what they think
and what they feel, different parts of the brain are involved and
they kind of compete with one another.

Alot of people simply follow their feelings, others have learnt
to think about what they feel and why.

Now take horoscopes, heaps of people read them. If you ask them
if they believe what they read, most will say no. But if what is
written today is really positive, they will still feel happy.

Why do people read horoscopes? Clearly they are anxious and
curious about the future.

IMHO, those who let feelings dominate, can be absolutaly
persuaded that those things are all true. Those that have
learnt to think about what they feel, will question those
feelings and beliefs to some extent.

I had a friend who absolutaly believed about the meaning of
dreams. One day something that she dreamed, actually happened.
She of course ignored the laws of chance and the fact that she
had dreamt for years and those things did not happen. Our human
minds can be incredibly slective in what we remember.

Anyhow, one day she dreamed that she would win the lotto, and
was convinced it would happen. Sadly it did not, so she became
a bit more skeptical about dreams.

I'm noticing a bit of a common theme in some posts.. and it's this...

"the expensive"...book..crystal..something... yep.. for me anything which has a big price tag attached while claiming some miraculous outcome.. (including some so called Christian 'faith' healers) wooo..I immediately go into 'shut down' mode towards them.

I just do a simple comparison..

a) "Pagan/wierd/off beat offer" Yes.. of course I can help you..the fee will be $$$$$$

b) "but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

If it "costs" (financially)... count me out. Though I'm happy to contribute financially to the ongoing fellowship and advancement of the Gospel and humanitarian aspects of the Body of Christ (which do NOT inclclude World Vision for reasons I've previously stated)

COPPER.. Celivia..what I heard was not that it is any kind of cure-all, but in some cases.. for some types of infections (rather than diverse ailments generally) it is said to help.

I'm suprised that so many have indulged in many of these things..
I just want to encourage you all not to be disillusioned about Christ based on negative past experiences with such things..but also.. never to see Christ or Christianity as "the one which 'works'" in the way these other things were hoped to work.

There are many immature Christians who do simply transfer what I'd call pseudo paganism/animism/omen based belief systems straight into their newfound faith.... usually they don't last.. the first disillusioning *crunch* which somes along sees them saying "It didn't work"

But Pericles.. crystal balls? I'm shocked :) Now I understand why many of your posts are.... hmmmm....

P.S.. don't worry.. I did get it.

Great topic Celivia.

And some terrific responses.

My new-age dalliance was with the Tarot Cards. I am very good at assessing people (years of experience with assessing claimants in the public service - shades of Mentalist, Examinator) and I did think that I could make some money out of offering my Tarot reading expertise, however I am afflicted with a sense of honesty that would make for too much conflict with my conscience and desire to reap a few dollars.

I also have explored Feng Shui and agree that a practical arrangement of furniture and decor is simple good sense.

I still have my amethyst crystals - they are beautiful.

Maintaining a positive "what can I learn here" approach helps with dealing with life's mishaps and along with meditation both assist me with managing my chronic depression. Science has recorded the positive effects of meditation on the human brain.

I do believe in the benefits of acupuncture - some years ago my back was damaged in a car accident and the only treatment that gave any relief was acupuncture, until the torn muscles healed enough to permit manipulation by a physio (who also performed the acupuncture). While I am sceptical about all the claims for the procedure, there is definite help to be gained by its ability to relax muscles. Which makes some sense as the needles are placed into nerve endings.

Perhaps, because there is an element of truth within all the various claims of many New Age practices, they are worth exploring. Just as long as a level of detachment remains, I don't see much harm at all. It is when a person believes in something that has no evidence at all and does not question or scrutinise the superstition, that people's health - mental and physical may be compromised.

Shortly after I came here I was talking to students about the sameness between East and West, rather than the difference. As an example I told them that many people in the West subscribe to Feng Shui. I thought they would would look grave and nod their heads in appreciation...or something.Instead they fell about laughing and whooping.

The translation of their comments in Chinese was not "Oh wise Western people, you follow the ways of the Ancestors" or the mystic and appreciative comments I had envisaged but "You gotta be kidding! That old crap!"

Being Romany I have always been surrounded by a certain kind of mysticism in a very matter of fact way (Oh, is that Great Grandpa over there by the stairs? Tell him Hey for me)but mostly I know a lot about herbs and things and use them a lot.

This led, in South Africa, to my African name being The White Sangoma (Witch)!

it is too easy to lump together things we dont understand
i cant be bothered explaining it all to you[because its a personal thing]

some people drive trucks[others arnt even safe walking]

take your ridicule on copper
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/documentaries/2008/11/081112_world_without_copper.shtml

look up the potential of magnetic drive[a simple series of magnets that provide free energy[you left that off your list]because you accepted the spin

i too have blown people away with tar-rot
people reading my cards get blown away as well

feng shui is about optimising space to fit in with the natural flows and energies[including area's such as health and life/balance,think of it a a frame of belief

we all have the inner god[sustaining us to live
calling it a god-dess dosnt change that fact

aura's are well known admitedly many pretenders are out there,same with all these area's[you think industry making cash out of pet-rol, gas or electricity want us having free energy]

so they break up their feared threat,by spreading faulse info[or posting generalised articles[to lumP all their feaRS INTO ONE CONSPIRICY LABLE]

ASTROLOGY IS A GOOD JOKE
,but then that depends on how serious you take it
like when regan ran the us according to his own astrol-logic-al chart

it was easy to sinc up with his buttons[to know what to push when

[a few battles in ww2 were won by knowing[changing histlers chart]

panthesm helps us form the concept or order,the man and his duty,as well as being amusing and insightfull

meditation is relaxing[it helps[as does prayer ;live with it

irradology[like urine and fecal anaLISIS ARE ALL VALID SCIENCE

phychic healing[again so many pretenders
[yet it works on ocasion[jesus said that ye see me do
YOU WILL DO BETTER

but we dont have the knowing[faith]
its a fact that spirits communicate with this realm
but guess what lie-rs will still lie duh!]

spirits arnt bonded to tell idiots the truth
nor put anything before god
they as we have freewill
#
i chin etc depends on trying to accept an outside OPINION[at best],
not tell you how to run your OWN life

Great topic Celivia and some great posts all round no matter what we believe or have dabbled in.

I have stayed away from most things new age or old age really. Other than meditation - which I found I was too impatient to wait around for results (which might suggest I really needed to stick with it).

Polycarp I have to agree with you (just for a change) about the importance of our surrounds whether one wants to call it Feng Shui or not. A light room with lots of windows and a lovely 'green' view bringing the outside inside can make a huge difference for peace of mind.

Wise words from Yabby. Very true that most belief systems come about to make people feel better and sometimes this need drives us to search for happiness or meaning in very different directions.

As long as these things do no harm or set up false hope and disappointment I guess it is each to his own.

I am not sure I would include chiropractic in new age anymore Foxy - they do wonders for a sore back. I am with your hubby on that one. :)

One thing which I want to try just from a scientific point of view is planting by the moon. There is some scientific basis to this philosophy in regard to when to plant seeds or seedlings. The lunar cycle affects the tides so maybe it might be worth further investigation. If I get the time to experiment I will let you know.

Celvia,
I thunk it up all by my self probably as I verbally paddled to impress some young temptress. Later polished and extended in a magazine article. (the most overpriced bovine excreta ever)
If you stand and watch at a club it is truly amazing how accurate you can be later when giving a 'reading'. After a while you can predict relatively which guys will approach which girls and how successful they will be etc. interesting.

I recall spending several nights in that piano bar on free drinks by pointing guys in the direction of 'their star compatible' female in the room.
I had a very high success rate simply watching for the come hither signs (body language) that guys were too self obsessed to see.
If I got the girls birth sign wrong I simple attributed that to the most influential rising sign at the time of the birth (which is true the influence of the sun sign= 12-20% rising sign up to 40%)...therefore my reputation was still in tact."

I was a man of mystery to some girls and amazing to the guys.

I should (in the interest of total disclosure)mention If I got their earlier enough SOMETIMES I would get divine help... some divine girls would add to my drinks quantum for delayed pointing services . Like I said I was a baaaaaad boy. I was often suitably inebriated but always a scallywag. This routine lasted for about 2 years before I moved on to another interest. I made enough readies from ‘commissions’ and the odd article to go back to school to get my Adult HSC.
Now you can see why I say been there done that and the tee shirt hides the scars.

Ok...I'm getting into hobbyhorse mode here :)

COPPER.. I mention this only because I heard a report about it on the news since my last post.

They have found in some UK public health research...that copper is blasphemy to superbugs.. (have to keep the image going :)

i.e.. some of the most difficult bacteria which are resistant to anti biotics.. are not resistant to contact with copper.

So..now the hospitals are making copper door handles and many other things out of copper where human-thing contact can occur.

I think we go off the rails when people see that a material is good for one thing..and they extrapolate that to EVery thing..

Pelican.. we agree? good grief.. that's about as much of a shock as the thumping right cross I experienced this morning from a sparring partner :) My posts might not make much sense for the next week *grin*

"Now? I am a sinner I haunt weekend markets but rush past new age stuff as fast as religions get the boot at my door."

LOL, Belly. Yes, I too give all new age mumbo jumbo and religion a very wide berth and always have, though I did try hard to become a believer in Christianity for one short impressionable period in my life, when some of the people I knew and admired at the time were Christians.

Having said that, I do feel, Celivia, that there are a few items on your list that do have very specific and verifiable health benefits, in particular, chiropractic, homeopathy, cleansing of the digestive system and eating in accordance with blood type, which I personally wouldn't group alongside things like astrology, tarot cards and crystals.

My goodness, Examinator, to think, in my nightclub days, I used to be quite drawn to guys with intense eyes and black duds and polo necks! Yep, I would have been putty to your manipulative ways!

The only mumbo-jumbo I've thoroughly fallen for was christianity. It to is curable.

I have people very close to me who believe very strongly in the ideas in "The Secret". I think that there is some truth in it in a similar way to David's comments about the impacts of our suroundings on us.

Those who focus on an idea may be more likely to do the things that are needed to achieve that idea. I also suspect that there are some things about the way our minds interact with our bodies that we don't yet understand. A number of our christian posters have reported experiencing "miraculous" healings, I've had friends report similar and believers in some other faith systems also claim to have experienced healings. It's possible that all such experiences are imagined but I doubt it. If they do occur and were attributable to just one idea of God then the experiences should be confined to just one faith (except for those who's devil is in the business of healing).

I suspect that what we believe can help our chances of better health.

R0bert

Yabby,
I second what Pelican said to you. Great post.

Pelican,
I’m very curious about your experiment, that’s so interesting. Experiments like this will eventually sort out the mumbo-jumbo from the evidence. Have you done other things for the purpose of experiment/investigation? I’ve done several things for the sole purpose of experimenting as well, remaining neutral or sceptical about them.
It’s lots of fun and so educational.

Polycarp,
Hehehe, perhaps now you know why Pericles finds you so predictable!

Re copper,
I agree with you, perhaps you should thank your sparring partner. Awwww.
You’re correct that copper has antimicrobial properties and can inactivate some microbes faster than other metals can.
It would be a good metal to use in public spaces as a surface material, too. But I don’t believe for a second that copper bracelets would cure some types of infections.

Fractelle,
I have a collection of crystals which I display in a bowl, but I didn’t obtain them for any mumbo-jumbo reasons, just find them very beautiful to look at. If they protect me against demons or something, that’s a bonus :)
Seriously, I know someone who covers herself in crystal bracelets and necklaces to attract luck, shield evil spirits… I hope they attract sanity, too.

Acupuncture and chiro: anything that relaxes the muscles can have beneficial effects. Medicare (in NSW) covers acupuncture when performed by a MD. I think that there is some research about acupuncture being done as we speak, very interesting. Last I heard was that it appears that it doesn’t matter WHERE they stick the needles: along the meridians or in the ‘wrong spots’; the healing effect is the same, so it suggests placebo effect might come into the picture. More studies need to be done on this.
Sorry I have no link, must've read it in a magazine.

Stress can really harm the body, so it makes sense that things (esp therapies that involve touch such as massage, chiro, reflexology) that relax people would get rid of some stress and therefore aid healing.

Continued...

Dear Bronwyn....

<<though I did try hard to become a believer in Christianity for one short impressionable period in my life,>>

Now.... u KNOW what's coming don't you :)

"If at first you don't succeed.. try..try again"

If I was a salesman..I'd look up my sales manual in the section which says "Identify the barriers to the sale" then try to pick them off one by one.

But let me just say.. please don't connect the faith with the 'faithful'.. so to speak.. all of us are dissappointed from time to time over those we thought represented something we found interesting...just look to the Lord Himself as recorded in the Gospels, and the commentaries on his life and word in the Epistles.
He doesn't stop knocking just because we ignore the first tap on the door. (or when we open the door a bit and then see the product and close it again)

COPPER..no..I don't have a clue about the effect of a copper write bracelet.. unless there was an infection directly at that point perhaps.
The bracelet thing sounds like one of those extrapolations into the twilight zone.

CELIVIA.. after a good ol knock in the head.. I might.. MIGHT even start to make sense from now on :) That bloke previously had almost pushed my navel out through my spine, (with a kick or 5) and separated my head from my shoulders.. and this time he whined that I was hitting him too hard.. awwww

All this rationality, yet most of you have fallen for the big one.

Hands up all who have fallen for the Global Warming scam, & all who fell for the last one, the Y2K scam.

Dear Celivia,

What a great thread!

Everyone is having so much fun.
Including Polycarp - wow, I'm seeing him in a
different light altogether. Boxing no less...
Interesting! Hmmmmmm

If my oracle cards made you laugh, you should have
seen me trying to do belly-dancing.

I took several classes to impress my husband (so
I thought). It was belly-dancing or pole-dancing.
I opted for belly-dancing. Instead of arousing
him, he got hysterical, and to this day we don't
speak about it.

The copper/infection thing is new to me. I was under the impression copper bracelets were worn for something to do with blood pressure, or something else blood related. I recall older people used to wear them when I was a kid. Old=green wrists.

I've tried really hard to believe in several mystical options but was never successfully convinced. Bd mentioned the money factor, which always seems to be at the bottom of any kind of mysticism. The wealth of the Vatican was not brought about by a miracle and those lovely boxes account for the cost of whatever is in them.

As a kid I read that village witches and other assorted weirdos provided their services in exchange for the support and goodwill of those they helped. No money, and reward came with results. It's one of those kiddy things that stuck.

Accupuncture's a different animal. Whether it works because I believe it does, or because there's some physiological basis for it, accupuncture works.

Yoga, maybe. I suspect that the beneficial effects are partly due to doing something in concert with others, like choral singing or line dancing or doing the Nutbush or the Time Warp.

Dear chainsmoker,

Copper is supposed to possess healing properties
that fight against inflammatory
diseases, such as arthritis and rheumatism.

It's no wonder that you remember older people
wearing copper bracelets.

Amber is said to have healing properties
as well.

I know I feel great wearing it.

Bronwyn,
I agree that in some cases, digestive tract cleansing can have (verifiable) health benefits.
But my concern is that the self-help industry is such an unregulated jungle where there’s no control on authors’ medical qualifications.
Most people don’t pay attention to disclaimers in books.
I don’t really have a solution, but I think that people need to be aware that there are non-qualified healers and authors who make insubstantial claims about health.

Look, for example, at “Dr” Gillian McKeith, an author who’s well known around the world and who advises and educates on nutrition and colon cleansing She has been banned from using the title “doctor” on the basis of qualifications gained by correspondence course from a non-accredited American College.

She’s not the only one; there are others who use the title Dr when they’ve only acquired some kind of naturopath certificate.
Nobody stops them from making uninformed claims and giving people nonsensical advise about their health.

Not only US schools, but Australian correspondence schools as well offer health courses of which the contents are questionable.
I’ve been interested in quackery for some time and as a hobby I was on a mission to investigate some of the schools and courses a few years ago. IMO they were of low standard.

I don’t like the idea that American naturopaths can publish books making use of the Doctor status, and that these books are then distributed in other countries where people are mislead into believing that Doctors write these books and therefore follow the advice given.

I’m quite convinced that the blood type diet is BS, too. I’ll change my mind when I see evidence of proper scientific studies on this.
The author, d’Adamo is another example of a naturopath who calls himself Dr.
The diet is an invention of his mind backed up by pseudo-science and could harm people.

Homeopathy: nonsense!
James Randi can explain the concept far better than I could.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWE1tH93G9U

Romany,
That was so funny re “the old crap”! Your students are brilliant, you must love them!

Yes herbs have healing properties.

Continued

OUG,.
Fractelle said, “It is when a person believes in something that has no evidence at all and does not question or scrutinise the superstition, that people's health - mental and physical may be compromised.”
Pelican said something similar.
And I say Amen to that.

“take your ridicule on copper”
Questioning a myth about copper bracelets is not the same as criticising the metal itself.
I love the copper ornaments I inherited from my Grandmother, but I’m not hanging them around my neck because I belief they are good for my health.

“we all have the inner god[sustaining us to live”
We do? I thought that was called a brain :+)

Examinator,
Is your article on line? I love the way you creatively saved your reputation, very crafty!
If you can guess my star sign, have a go (perhaps I’ll let you have 12 guesses) but…I won’t be falling for your Rising Sign Theory/rescue now that you’ve told us your secret!

RObert,
Ah The Secret, I forgot all about that!
I don’t know much about what The Secret promises, but what you say about it sounds reasonable.

Re miraculous healings, yes I think that for that to occur, a person must have strong faith in whatever the method/medicine is. That’s why scientists place importance on the placebo effect and double or triple blind controlled trials are needed to sort out the science from the mumbo-jumbo. There's always a percentage in every group that heal because of the placebo effect and these must be excluded from the results.

Although I think that it’s wonderful when beliefs, rational or not, help people heal, at the same time I want to recognise that these healing methods are not scientific or reliable.

While they work for some, their success totally and only depend on the strength of the person’s faith, not on an external cause.

I.e. If prayer has worked for someone, it is not evidence that God exists, it is a sign that this person’s belief, rational or irrational, was strong enough for the placebo effect to occur.

continued...

Hi Poly,
Nice to see you have a good sense of humour despite your injuries! My husband does (and teaches) karate and he’s been limping for weeks. I thought that sport was meant to keep people fit&healthy but hey, what do I know!

Hasbeen,
Whether Global warming is caused by humans or not doesn’t concern me all that much because the big picture tells me that we have to make sure we can sustain ourselves in the future. A cleaner environment is always a better outlook than a polluted one and offers a better future for our children, not?
Do you have any irrational belief besides Global Warming denialism?

Thank you, Foxy,
Yeah, I’m really enjoying all of everyone’s contributions and many crack me up, but I’m getting frustrated with the posting limits.
Funny about the belly dancing, but let me pacify you by saying that there’s truth in the belief that laughter is good medicine!
I once got all entangled in a long scarf that we had to use in one of the dances.

Chainsmoker,
Now you’ve caused me to imagine hordes of old people with bony, green wrists! For some reason they look much like old Simpson characters, like Mr Burns and Homer’s dad. Doh, it's bedtime and I'll dream about the green wrists!

Yes, greed most probably is the motivator for scammers and quacks.
But like those village witches, there are also people who are motivated by compassion for others, or perhaps for acceptance or recognition, and for a better chance to be included in the community.
I think it feels naturally good to help others. I wonder sometimes it’s for selfish reasons when I help someone because it feels like a reward to see that what I did or said made them happy.
Similar to buying your child a Christmas present and watch them open it.

Nutbush- I love it!

No dear Foxy..boxing is rather limited :) i'ts KICKboxing.. wham bam thankyou maam.... but usually it's me who is getting whammed and bammed :) I do it for the cardio mainly.. if it gets a bit serious I back off.
In boxing you have 2 weapons -fists..in KB (and most other martial arts) you have... (counts)..8. - Fists, elbows, knees, feet. Getting them all to work together can be quite a challenge :)

I've never been as fit as I am now.. not even when I was a 20 yr old.
Speaking of which.. during that age period and playingAussie rules they allllways put me on the half back flank.. zippo chance of scoring :) just hold the fort and spill ur guts while the others get the glory. Once I decided to 'stamp my mark' on a game and saw an opportunity.. so.. from the HBF I did 2 or 3 bounces having a reasonably clear run to the goal and bingo..kicked one aaaah.. applause and praise.. got man of the match.. people conveniently forgot that I did it in flagrant violation of my 'position' :)
So...I do the KB as a thing where I can develop my own skill and there is NOOOOo "half back flank" in it hahahah..

COPPER.. again/still.. yes.. some people have used bracelets for all kinds of whacky things.. thats my point. Give people a hint of something and they will take it to a surreal level sometimes.
Stick with verified research on that kind of thing.

FENG SHUI..I think I'll be naughty and develop a study guide "Christian FENG SHUI" :) should cause a stir at the next elders meeting...

Bronwyn, Celvia
There is a sad side to this new age stuff.
Take my eldest daughter (I WAS very young) 35 and suffering from MS prognosis that isn’t that good. Naturally I hope the vagaries of MS will render these prognoses wrong and she will have a near normal life.

The SITUATION
She has taken the new age stuff raw veganism and what is a cross between psychic & mental healing. She now sees Her MS as not a physical reality but one of her personal negativities. Now that she’s cleared these blockages she “IS clear of her MS”. And now refuses to seek medical care, medication claiming that all the physical issues (scaring on her Mylar) are the same in many normal people but don’t affect them. (Because the purveyor told her). Her MS symptoms, lack of concentration, blurring of sight and speech, etc are simply her slipping back into her negative ways.
She is not a fool or uneducated being both a talented artist and has a degree in teaching.

The CONUNDROM
do I ?:-
• Impress upon her the need to restart her medication/medical treatment?
• Accept that she’s old enough to make her decisions even though she maybe shortening her active life and hastening her sad degeneration into a nursing home?
This is an ethical problem many people face in many forms and perceived intensities i.e. If think I know the truth about religion do I force it on others or do I respect their rights to their views.
You don’t get Mickey Mouse tails for guessing which way I’ve gone and why. Even though I’m not happy with the consequences. No parent expects to bury their child let alone let it happen.
The difference between my mischief and the purveyor’s was/is I never deliberately hurt any one nor did get involved unless I genuinely felt there was a connection. One could say that I was her mother’s pawn. (Long story) I missed out on my daughter’s growing up. Like I said Karma’s revenge.

Dear examinator,

It appears that from your relationship with your daughter,
and from my husband's experience with his parents, it would
be advisable no matter how difficult it may be for you
to stay out of your daughter's attempt at coping with
her own problem.

It might help your daughter if she has someone she trusts,
(a close friend or relative),
to give her guidance to steer her in the right direction
towards professional help that she would accept.

No matter what her decision, it would be best not to
interfere but at all times support her and be there for her.

Her life has taken its course - and no matter what the past,
it has to complete its journey. Any interference on your part
will only bring out the negative and make cause more harm.

In the meantime don't be too hard on yourself. You're a caring
man with a big heart, and I'm sure that your daughter knows
this.

All The Best,

ok egsaminator im confused
by your quote

>>..'Now that she’s cleared these blockages she “IS clear of her MS”.

And now refuses to seek medical care, medication' ..<<

i know it SEEMS clear
but has she symptoms now?
or not

this is not really stickybeaking
only an excuse to post this link
[i googled up on the topic
[in my quick research on ms]

[a process im sure your daughter did as soon as she heard]

have you seen this site?
http://www.ms-success.com/

i know what your going through
[i suspect we got the wrong daughters]
mine thinks like you

recently she had gall stone surgery
despite my revealing the cure to her;
[ie some vineger to soften the stones
followed by virgin olive oil
containing fats that force the gall bladder to express the stones [naturally] as well as lubricate their passage.

but she decided on the knife
[and wouldnt discuss the issue further]
so i accept her right to do as she feels led to chose
she has heard all my debait

we cant run their lives forever [apparently]
we can just love that they think for themselves

however right or wrong we feel them to be

its the disease that is the enemy
not that delightfull spirit god gave us oh so briefly

[we are spirits having a bodily incarnate experience]
i must live mine
and let her live hers

Foxy,
You have as usual encapsulated the issue clearly…you clever little thing you. It is nice to have someone confirm one’s thinking thank you. Even if you are a little too kind on me.

The other intention of this post was to illustrate that new age thinking if taken too seriously as it often is (especially by the vulnerable looking for solace) can have a dark side and how the ensuing conundrum can end badly if we assume too much.
It is one thing to offer an opinion or even discuss it but another thing entirely to attempt to subjugate someone else’s opinions. To do so persistently crosses the line between a discussion and being insulting/offensive and that never ends well.

Something you my fair lady and most of the posters on this site are never likely to do.

It is a pity though that many males tend to see discussions as either in combative or competitive frame rather than an exchange which can be frivolous and/or D&M. As one male poster said aren’t we all trying to convert others (to our way of thinking). In short No! and why? Now I’m way off topic.

Another aim was to show Celvia & Bronwyn that I was there to meet girls and beyond that it was very rarely manipulative if a titch chaotic and mischievous at times.. Good for a giggle.

examinator sorry about your girl, MS is so very hard.
Like you I am so glad Foxy posts here enough said.
Back from my Sunday haunting of markets,its nearly better than polycarps jym.
Quick sprint past the new age stalls, ducking the sprooker telling me and the world we are bound for hell, ducked into the coastal tee trees to get around that.
Bought a concrete swaggy and his dog, have two now on my gate.
A few herbs, sh don't tell any one, home grown tomato's, and a smile.
Two markets and all that stretching and ducking in one day.
PS
Polycarp you did not visit a market on the mid north coast of NSW today?
Well sounded like you regards.

ONE UNDER GOD
Yes she does still have MS but she believes her unblocking of her "psychological blocks" what ever they are(more misused Psycho babble)have cured her. But you're right we don't own our children we get to borrow them for a while ;-)

BELLY
I look at it this way she's happier in her 'delusion' so leave it alone.
The issue is a concern but one I deal with, at times through gritted teeth though. Like the old saying you can take the boy out of the angst but never the angst out of the boy. Thoughts of biffing a con man came and went. :-|

BTW Her MS is old news an on going issue since she was 16. As she got older she went through the religious bit then took up the new age stuff with progressing enthusiasm to the current stage.

Human nature strikes again. Funny how our basic natures haven't advanced much since we our trogldytic times unlike our technology.

Thanks for your kind thoughts

Dear Examinator and Belly,

Thank you both for your kind words.

I am so grateful for OLO - because it has
enabled me to meet people like yourself.

I have had my "dark" moments as Belly knows,
and the advice and friendship that was provided
to me during those difficult times helped me to
cope.

Celivia and Bronwyn are both terrific posters,
and great ladies.

Once again, I wish you well with your daughter.

Be kind to yourself,

Poly,
Christian feng shui sounds like a fun idea- there might be a market for it :)
What area would you place Jesus in- that’s the question. There’s the fame area, the health area, the relationships area and so on. Perhaps he should be moved around, as he seems to belong everywhere.
Probably not good feng shui to keep him nailed to a cross though; perhaps a happy, smiling Jesus would create better energy all around.
Next, unclutter the church- e.g. get rid of old, stuffy books.
Need a co-author? :)

Examinator,
I have no doubt you were into the astrology thing etc for a bit of a laugh and to meet the girls. No harm in that!
I feel for your daughter and the people close to her like yourself.
I agree with Foxy that if you can’t personally motivate your daughter to seek proper medical advice, perhaps someone else could talk to her.
I understand what you say about crossing the line though.

If you google this title, you’ll find a very informative 14-page PDF brochure, titled “Clear Thinking about Alternative Therapies” by the National MS Society (USA.
Perhaps your daughter would be interested in reading it?

Quacks and frauds make me angry.
To feed on vulnerable people they must be the lowest scum on earth and should be jailed.

Having said that, I believe that many alternative therapists have the best intentions.
But unfortunately, good intentions don’t magically turn quackery or even promising hypotheses into proper therapies.
And we have to admit that even science doesn’t always gets it right.

From the brochure:
Suspect fraud if:

* Promoters suggest an alternative treatment is a “cure” for MS. The grander the claim, the more alarming this signal is.

* You must pay in advance.

* The treatment is available from only one source or works by a “secret” formula.

* A practitioner does not want to work with your medical doctor.

* The promoters claim there is a medical or scientific conspiracy against them.

* Advertising uses testimonials from “satisfied customers.”

Take care!

Celivia you ask a number of questions which I am only to pleased to answer

No I have not belonged to the same denomination all my life. I grew up being taught that the Roman Catholic church was the 'one true church'. When I came to personal faith in Christ and read the Scriptures I realized that I had been taught unbiblical nonsense. No person will be saved by belonging to a denomination. They will be saved by faith in Jesus Christ. There are many who are sincerely trying to preach the Word of God as it was written. Jesus Himself will sort the wheat from the weeds. Personally I share fellowship with people from the Baptist, Church of Christ, Pentecostal, Anglican, Uniting Church and the list goes on. The denomination to me is not that important but the teaching is.

I would say say that I have not explored other beliefs but have been pretty good at picking frauds. I lived as a heathen (like most catholics) from my teenage years until coming to Christ in my early twenties. I was blind enough to believe the secularist at that stage. Study the real bank notes in order to pick fraud. All beliefs based on evolutionary teaching end up being fraudulent. This has happened time and time again. New age is mostly Eastern Mysticism. Any person with a tiny bit of discernment knows that when man becomes the centre of attention you can be sure you are on the wrong track. The answers are not within mankind. Within mankind is greed, lust, lying. Jesus was either telling the truth or lying when He said He was the only way to God. Twisters of Scripture try to weasle out of Jesus plain statements.

con't

You are right in saying that some religous people are not really believers but only want to keep family peace. On the other hand I know a young man who sincerely believes in Christ but does not want to tell his family because they are all heathens. It works both ways. I know a number of young people who go to universities who are to afraid to tell their lecturers that evolution is a load of crap even know they sincerely believe and know it. Personally my children are free to choose. If they can't see anything in what I believe then it is not worth believing in. I don't believe in manipulation like secular and religous people do alike. I will love them unconditionally anyway. Thankfully to this stage they have all left school and are following Christ.

You ask how can I be sure that my brand of Christianity is the right one? I don't think that following Christ is really all that difficult intellectually. What is difficulty is laying aside my own agenda and taking up God's plans and purposes for my life. Being born into selfishness I often desire my own will instead of God's. I don't rally consider I have a brand. I do my best to follow Christs and His apostles teachings. I surround myself with like minded people who I can encourage and whom can encourage me

*I surround myself with like minded people who I can encourage and whom can encourage me*

Well runner, I am always again amazed how Xtians can change the
interpretation, to suit the occasion.

Take a look at this lot:

http://christiannymphos.org/

Sounds like making whoopee for God can be heaps of fun :)

Yippee, no more guilt!

YESSSSS Yabby :) but note the 'within marriage' bit? hmmmmmm?

I can't fault that site at first glance... probably a bit of an over-reaction to something I'd say...but certainly not unChristian unless someone can point to something about it that I didn't notice.

Here is some real good 'mumbo jumbo' from Vance Havner.. a great preacher of yesteryear.

"You can't tell it like it is, if you don't believe it like it was."

(I love that one)

"Most church members live so far below the standard, you would have to backslide to be in fellowship with them."

"Sometimes you hear congregations say concerning a preacher's message, ' I didn't get it.' It's not our place that they get it, it's our place to see that they hear it."

"Some preachers ought to put more fire into their sermons or more sermons into the fire."

"If you want to be popular, preach happiness. If you want to be unpopular, preach holiness."

Hi Celivia.. my book title is along the lines of the 'sandwich sign' I want to use one day :) "Get 'rich' quick.. believe in Jesus"

Which of course is a taunt at the Prosperity gospel and would be intended to draw observers into a conversation where the true riches of peace of heart and mind (rather than the wallet) could be explored :)

Examinator

I read your post yesterday detailing your difficulties with your daughter; appropriate words remained elusive as I empathised with you. Fortunately the wonderful Foxy found words many of us feel for you.

One thing I do know is that from reading your posts, you are a great communicator. I am sure that deep down your daughter knows that you are there for her - even though she may appear unreachable. I hope that you can continue to reassure her that you always care for her - without causing further alienation.

I do know, from personal experience, how significant a positive frame of mind is to recovery or coping with illness; ideally a combination of medical aid and cognitive development offer a holistic approach. There is rarely a single magical answer, as you well know.

BTW I too could identify with your 'astrological' approach to the game of flirting, all I can say is good for you, you clearly had much more to offer than the typical callow youth.

Celivia,
I would take up your challenge but I would need your bithday, time of Birth place and a picture. Feel free to post them on the site (he he He). ;-)

Fractelle,
Thank you for your kind thoughts.
What do you mean HAD more to offer? There's more of me now than then! I was 60kg give me a drink of rasberry codial and I looked like a thermometer.. or a hairy swizzle stick!...and now I weigh ...well er...um...a bit more. (tee he he) :-)

Most mainstream religions are becoming rather "New-Ageish".

When you start to pick and choose which bits to believe as facts and which bits are open to "various personal interpretations", it's no different from any other belief system except for it's historical longetivity.

It has to be all or nothing doesn't it? Don't they appoint official spokespersons who interpret the true meanings?

If one significant group can believe that you "get your own planet when you die" and that "God mates with mortals" and still be regarded as mainstream then what does that say about the whole package? Some still espouse the Fire and Brimstone approach and others don't.

Some of the things that followers argue today would have previously seen them burned as heretics.

There seem to be both New Age Cults and New Age Religions, each able to be customised for the consumer to make them more palatable and get around those inconvenient hard-to-explain bits that arise from time to time.

Casting the first stone is not advisable when living in a glass house.

Greetings:
It can be very difficult to find a reason for being alive at this time and there is no one answer because we are all on a different path, all of us at a different level of understanding.

That is why I wrote a book and had it self-published and then put it on the internet for anyone to read and download or purchase. It is on my website - spiritualmusings.net which also contains a number of articles and some guided writing some of which has turned out to be prophetic.

Perhaps that might be a route for anyone reading this to take.

Gimmy

Poly,
Those are great and clever quotes- not bad for a priest.
I agree with you about prosperity gospel.
It’s brimming with mumbo-jumbo and could be called a New Age religion as Wobbles mentions.

I’ve been wanting to read “The Eye of the Needle- Discipleship and Wealth” by Jim Reiher.
I got it for my birthday a while ago but it’s lingering on my still-to-read pile. I’ve skimmed through it, though, and it seems quite interesting. Do you know about that book?
The author holds a BA Dip Ed and an MA in Theology with Honours. He specialises in New Testament Studies.
Anyway, I’m sure that he hates prosperity gospel as much as you and I do.

Do you think that people try harder to believe in Jesus if they’re promised they’ll get rich quick?
Will that promise really help them to believe in Jesus, or are they just pretending?
There wouldn’t be a point in pretending, because if Jesus existed, He’d know that you’re pretending. If he didn’t exist then there’s no point either.

Exammy,
OK, here’s my picture, look--> :0/
My birthplace is Amsterdam,
You can search for my birth date in the stars.
Teeheee, I hope that helps :+)

Do you know what I wonder about astrology?
Pluto (the planet, not the dog) has always been included in people’s charts.
But now that Pluto has been reclassified as a non-planet, wouldn’t that make all charts invalid in the eyes of astrologers?
Imagine that your chart said something like: “Pluto is in your 7th house, therefore you are blah blah...”
I just wonder what astrologers do with their calculations now that Pluto plutoed.

I think that many people find astrology a lot of fun because books on their star signs always tell us how wonderful they are :)
Which was Yabby’s point- many of these New Age crazes make people feel good.
It can do no harm as long as people take it with a grain of salt (or with a particle of stardust).

continued

Gimmy,
I’ll have a look on your website, thanks.

Wobbles,
Great point about the new age religions.
The New Age version of glass houses might be polycarbonate ones- one can cast (gem) stones in these.

Runner,
I appreciate your long reply to my questions.
Even though we disagree on a lot, it’s good to try to communicate.
“No person will be saved by belonging to a denomination. They will be saved by faith in Jesus Christ.”
Yeah, I always thought that was the idea, too. So it shouldn’t really matter to anyone whether family members want to change religion.
Perhaps it would be a bigger problem for someone from a religious family, to come out as an atheist, or adapt a complete different religion, e.g. Islam, than it is to simply change denomination.
True, that people, who are born into atheist families can have difficulties, too, if they want to take up a religion.

I really think that people, who do not ‘believe’ in evolution, do not know enough about evolution. Evolution has not been unproven since Darwin and the theory is very unlikely to be disproved.
If uni students don’t want to accept evolution, then the area they study must not be, in any way, related to studies that include evolution theory aspects, like Biology.
If the evolution theory is as invalid as creationists say it is, then why is it that none of them has been able to disprove it? Everyone is free to do so at any time.
It’s easy to say that the wold is only 6000 years old but the evidence shows a different age.
Creationists are free to show that they are correct but all they have is a book that was written at a time when people knew very little about science.

The New Age version of creationism is ‘Intelligent Design’ mumbo-jumbo.

Celivia,
Pluto is still valid(sic) it is the sign of dramatic change often the end of something one needs to read the the aspects and take them into consideration on where they are as each 'house' has specific meaning ie 4th house (Cancer crustation not disease that comes from square and opositional aspect in the house of health etc.) home/ family. Follow? Good moving right along one must also take into consideration of the other stars and which houses they appear as we know they don’t always appear in their native houses. If they do that could be good but again it is the duty of the delineator to interpret these in concert with all the other relevant aspect.
Having done the above one mustn’t forget the positive sides of star and sign
Like trines semitrines sextiles and conjuctions(in injunctions as the latter are the consequences of legal interruptions and as such have no bearing what so ever on the topic). It is by the total amalgamation and blending of all these facits that an accomplished astrologer can delineate a meaningful nativity chart.

But warning when I said nativity I was refering to your or the subject’s birth and not that of ‘the nativity as in the Christian birth in Bethlehem ats this too has nothing to do with your chart.Either).

There are in astrology several different types of charts such as the synastry chart that refers to the cohabitational lives of two partners. Note: astrology does not distinguish bheetween genders not does it distinguish between leagal of defacto relationships. It is also possible to do charts of wedding days, business startups, infact anything that it time dependent.
No serious astrologer should give definativeor absolutes as this is contrary to the motion of the stars and what this implies is that every thing is in flux therefore any chart can only reasonably tell tendencies by comparisons between the natal chart and the current dawn or sun rise chats one can determine how you are progressing with the fates the stars bestowed. Understand good? Now what was the question?
Hethehehehe

Celivia

I appreciate your civil tone. You write
'Creationists are free to show that they are correct but all they have is a book that was written at a time when people knew very little about science.'

Without entering debate 3004 on this topic I agree that the bible is not a science book. There is a ton of scientific evidence confirming the truth of Scripture. The point is that evolution is also not science. The simple question of where material came from is not able to be answered. There is no plausible or even sensible explanation by scientist.

I have no objection to them teaching their dogmas but to call it science is really totally dishonest. No one who has done the simplest maths and the odds of the big bang could possibly believe such nonsense.

Runner,
I have a mother who sort of shares your views. There are a few points you need to understand.

Where matter came from is in the realms of theoretical cosmology, theoretical mathematics (the far end of physics) or philosophy. (As yet very undecided).
Even atheists can’t agree on the mechanism that necessarily links the two as part of the same equation. The current maths does seem to indicate that The Big Bang ((the origin of the universe) is the most likely contender for ultimate inclusion in the theory of everything. (TOE) or the Grand Uniting Theory (GUT).

Evolution is about biology (living matter) and its process (es) how/why it developed from there. Evolution as an over arching construct few within the relevant scientific community disagree although the down and dirty detail are still subject to discussion e.g. punctuated equilibrium (essential this ‘wrinkle argues that pressure for evolutionary change builds up within a paradigm then burst out in a spurt as opposed to the almost imperceptible micro changes of orthodox evolution.)

In a nut shell The Big Bang theory has nothing directly to do with Darwin or Evolution per se. Even if Big Bang is established all it will show is by what mechanisms the universe was created but still won’t absolutely prove or disprove God only move the point of absolute proof. So I often wonder at the angst.

Contrary to what you may think I have no truck with anyone’s right to their religious beliefs and I never intend to assert my beliefs over someone else’s.
• I do how ever question obvious flaws or errors of fact.
• Get frustrated with agendas beyond a rational discussion
• And prickle if someone tries to suborn my rights.
I have no intention of trying to change your views The purpose of this is to merely inform

Examinator,
Well explained to Runner that abiogenesis is not part of the evolution theory; that the evolution theory is about what happened AFTER life arose.
It is unfortunate that the concept of evolution is often confused with the concept of abiogenesis.

About your astrology explanation regarding Pluto… I’m staring at the words with a blank look on my face and glazed-over eyes.
Sheesh you learned all that mumbo-jumbo just to impress the girls? I’m impressed, too! You became quite knowledgeable in that area. You must have REALLY liked the girls :+)

OK I understand you tried to explain why Pluto, at least in the mind of astrologers, still is used in the creation of astrology charts.

But I still don’t get why.

The only reason that astrologers included Pluto in their calculations is because they wrongly thought it was a planet.
Since astronomers discovered thousands of other objects in the Kuiper belt, with the same composition as Pluto and some bigger in size, it is illogical for astrologers to ignore that new information and include Pluto in charts as if nothing new had been discovered.

Had they known from the beginning that Pluto was one of many similar objects and not a planet, they would have ignored Pluto.

They should either dump Pluto, or incorporate these thousands of other objects as well.

Runner,
“Without entering debate 3004 on this topic…”
Good idea, we should leave that debate till later, elsewhere.
But I just wanted to make sure that you understand that one doesn’t have to believe in any of the hypotheses of abiogenesis to be able to accept the evolution theory and that they shouldn't be linked as if they fall under the same theory- because they don’t.

Celivia,
I assumed the challenge et al was a bit of mental gymnastic silliness. Something I enjoy. My mind has been described as busy as Bucket load of Bull ants on speed, prone to go in any direction with a minimum of encouragement. Hence my deliberate descriptive self title “Examinator ant”.
Sorry if I didn’t recognize a serious question.

The history of Astrology is a fascinating one as is its rationale. One must keep it in context of its BCE origins. Perhaps one of its greatest periods was the times of Ptolemy. The topic was largely influenced by their maths, science (especially Astronomy) and Philosophy. It was regarded as a Science. As these men were by any measure brilliant it is not surprising that its maths and components are complex.
BTW they didn’t conceive of different celestial bodies in terms of stars planets, planetoids, comets etc. To them they were all stars= influences.

At the time they believed that there were other “stars” (influences) yet undiscovered hence they acknowledges the “minor” inaccuracies.
Hence it has been able to incorporate new “star” discoveries

Pluto wasn’t discovered until 1933. contemporary Astrologers simply incorporated it into their calculations. Its status as a star is irrelevant. For example the moon was regarded as a star and because of its size and was given star importance secondary only to the sun.

Purists ignore the asteroid belt Kuiper belt and the Oort Cloud as being too smaller influence. I wonder if Ptolemy had known of them and their differences if he would have concurred.

To start a chart a time of birth, date and place must be known. Most Astrologers seek confirmation of the star phenotype from the subject’s looks. Some, like me confirmed details in palmistry. A bit of observational cheating (?).

Astrology was a science (now obsolete) but New Age has turned it into a quasi- religious belief (an all too common human trait) to bolster new age ‘perspectives/rationales’.

BTW The last post was a technique I use to demonstrate facts without a context.
While factually correct it made no real sense

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It is a wonderful device.I recommend using an Aura Camera, which is specifically designed for displaying aura and printing aura photos via a computer interface

The Aura Video Station at www.aura.net
It is a wonderful device.I recommend using an Aura Camera, which is specifically designed for displaying aura and printing aura photos via a computer interface.
Offering 4 packages

“The last post was a technique I use to demonstrate facts without a context. While factually correct it made no real sense”
That’s a relief! For a moment I thought that the ants had taken the liberty to Punk Shui your attic :)

Thanks Examinator for your patience and humor.

Thanks everyone for your wonderful comments.

We probably agree that we can play around with the fun stuff the New Age craze has to offer as long as we're aware, don't take the mumbo-jumbo too seriously and remain skeptical.

The only thing that concerns me is that this New Age self-help industry offers no real protection from frauds who take advantage of people who are vulnerable or gullible.

Dear Celivia,

Thank You for this wonderful thread.

It was fun.

You're absolutely right.

Some people are very gullible - and frauds can take advantage.

There are the gullible who think a fairly large
cash transaction for a weekend on a meatless diet consisting
of group confession, several tearful breakdowns and
a handful of softly spoken phrases learned in
psychological new-speak, will make them brand new again.

It may do, but it probably won't.

Calvin Coolridge once said:

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not;
nothing is more common than unsuccesful men with talent.
Genius will not;
unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not;
the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.
The slogan 'Press On' has solved
and always will solve the problems of the human race."

Or as my father used to tell me,
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge,
but imagination."

Inside you are more possibilities than you could possibly
use up in one lifetime

response to celia
>>It is unfortunate that the concept of evolution is often confused with the concept of abiogenesis.<<

this is the new reply from the;Duh-evolutionists

you see a valid science has a begining
[a wild type prototype that BEGINS the process
[and evolution as put forward is a proces
[or rather a theory of a process ,not a science

thus i include evolution with the mumbo jumbo,

while seemingly logical
the actual change between one species into another has not been proved
[thus sans replication and science actually doing some evolving they remain in love with a god free theory ,

even many believers have fallen for the scam,never actually testing the charts we were shown as children

darwins finches WERE ALL finches[so loooks like[ie the plaster cast fossils]really dont prove a thing[thus arnt any proof][no science validation of dna ;no science]

science that cant replicate its THEORY via science method ]isnt science]
[not one living intermediate lives today ,
despite being an improvement?]

look at how many MILLIONS of years to make ape mutate into ape[then in 100,000 years bang along comes man[with hunreds of differences from ape[and this clever ape goes extinct

[while all the other 'NON evolved' apes stay alive[anywonder they are trying to murder the proof via nature genicide
[google up all the types of ape's
[but the clever one goes extinct?duh?

have you forgotten how we were brought into this new age jetson's, lost in space and other science [max well smaRT , JAMES BOND ,type of buzz ,its all about selling us the science godless delusion

[note how many science shows are on tv with murder alone ,or wonder docters its to sell this lie that science [medical doctors and cash and power] are gods

well they arnt
its just the old age mumbop jumbo
replicate before you speculate
on how species speciate

[from ambio genesis to evolving its first evolution
IS PART of the debait]

no DEFINATIVE first mutation
no evolution evolving
an unnamable NOTHING evoving into an unamed nothing isnt definate either ,thus
its not science [thus its mumbo jumbo]

Thank you, Foxy, I had fun, too! :)

OUG,
“a valid science has a begining “
The evolution theory begins with the premise that life already exists. It focuses only on life that exists.
Evolutionists don’t give a hoot how life got there because even if you had proof that a god created life, it wouldn’t affect the evolution theory.

Abiogenesis is concerned with how life originated, about the development of life from non-life.

Again, try not to confuse the two- that’s confusing.
Creationists who fail to understand that are Intelligent Duhsigners.

Anyway, I’d already decided to not discuss evolution vs. creationism here.
I just want you to know that there is a difference between evolution and abiogenesis.

celia belabours a point she initiated

typically for the debate
now she dont wany to explain[see last post]

yet her quotes
>>..people, who do not ‘believe’ in evolution, do not know enough about evolution. Evolution has not been unproven..>>

one would think the ONUS is to prove your theory

not for us to disprove
YOUR theory

but your nonsense has no bound
>>..and the theory is very unlikely to be disproved....<<

a double negative isnt a proof

as stated
YOU prove YOUR theory

regardless the theory has been rebutted in many ways
never the less the point remains for one to prove THEIR science[if science it is claimed to be]
not to mindlessly define non rebuttal as any true proof of the theory

#but you offer more opinion as proof

..>>If uni students don’t want to accept evolution,then the area they study must not be,in any way,related to studies that include evolution theory aspects,like Biology...<<

how condecending
REVEAL your proof

to quote you again
>>..must not be,
in any way,
related to studies that include evolution theory aspects, like Biology...<<

ok please explain where biology[a valid science DEPENDS on any real science encompased in this THEORY?there is none]

>>..If the evolution theory is as invalid as creationists say..<<

its not our science [its YOUR theory]

no one says speculation or theorising is not valid
but claiming the theory to be a valid science
explain what sciences

[publish the whole science of evolution
or accept it is a theoretical speculation
taught to children

replicate even A SINGLE evolution
[a science MUST be able to replicate it theory
USING the theory ,to guide us into science
[if it is science at all]

but more PROOF
>>..then why is it that none of them has been able to disprove it..<<

SO YOU KEEP SAYING
yet YOUR opinion is no sure proof
[a science MUST BE faulsifiable
[aint that a clever word meaning proven!

>>..the wold is only 6000 years old..<<
PLEASE POINT OUT WHERE THIS IS STATED IN THE BIBLE?

Dear OUG.... I'm willing to bet that if the word limit per post was 2500 words.. every one of your posts would be that long :)

Ok..teasing aside.. I'm most curious about your actual faith?

Would you mind putting a position statement out there for us?

Does your faith have any particular name? Like..Bahai...Christian..Muslim.. Buddhist etc?

Help us out here.....please.

Celivia.."Punk Shui" ? hahaha.. good 1 indeed!

Hi Poly,
Believe in or not, Punk Shui really exists.
Such a shame, because I was deluded into thinking that I was the original inventor of the word and idea. My inspiration was my son’s very messy room.
I thought it would be fun to write an article on Punk Shui and submit it to a House&Garden magazine.
But when I checked I found out that it was too little too late; someone had already written a book on it, titled, “Punk Shui: Home Design for Anarchists.”
They did a great job, nothing I could improve on.
Too little too late for me- there goes my 5 minutes of fame :)

OUG,
Like Poly, I’m curious about the brand of your religion/denomination.
When I said that I’m not going to debate evolution vs. creationism on this thread, you ignored it.

I set up this thread to have some fun while looking at (and criticising) all the New Age mumbo-jumbo we come across and wanted to make the point that we have to remain skeptical.
I didn’t set out to talk in detail about religion, atheism, evolution or creationism because I thought there had been enough discussions on that already and there are regular opportunities to discuss these topics.
Anyway, I noticed that you have your own thread now. I’ve haven’t had enough time yet but I’ll try to find some time to read Poly’s monkey thread and your new thread tonight and may or may not decide to post there, depending on what has already been said by others.

This video explains some basics of science, e.g. what a hypothesis is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf5rf7oXu5o