Dear Polycarp,

I appreciate your admission that you didn't know whether Mosley was an atheist. There is no evidence that atheists behave better or worse than people who believe in a god. it was not justified to assume one behaving badly is an atheist.

You wrote:

"It should be emphasized that to put things this way, does not imply that all atheists will do such things, simply that there is no moral barrier to them feeling quite ok about them."

The above statement assumes that moral barriers are generated by a belief in God. That is nonsense. A feeling of right and wrong is one thing. Belief in God is another. They are not in the least connected. Atheists can feel more connected to their fellow human beings since they do not have a God figure that gives them assurance that they are allowed to slaughter people in the name of god as in the Crusades. Not that atheists are free from bad behaviour. They can find other reasons.

Good people do good things. Bad people do bad things. For good people to do bad things requires religion.

Morality is a product of connecting to one's fellow human beings and developing a sense of right and wrong through that connection, parental and other conditioning and one's feelings.

Hitler and Stalin both had Christian religious training as children. Both thought of entering the priesthood. Hitler never renounced his Christianity. Stalin became an atheist. Both were monsters.

Australia has had an atheist prime minister in Bob Hawke, a Catholic in Paul Keating and a Protestant in John Howard. I didn't notice any difference in their morality.

Agreed David.. I was not intending to say "all" Atheists will behave thus and so..but that there is no moral 'anchor' other than the one they themselves decide on. Therefore..they could decide on any of a whole range of choices for that.

For a Christian..there can be only 2 conditions. 'Obedience' to the known standard..or.. disobedience to it.
There is no question of 'what' is the standard.. (apart from a bit of subjectivism it must be conceded on some things.. like 'gouge out' the sinful eye) but such things require a knowledge of the way of speaking of the day.

The point I was seeking to make re Mosley.. was that his behavior is neither moral nor immoral from the atheist world view, aside from the standard the individual atheist chooses to recognize.

From a Christian viewpoint..Mosley's behavior is very much against what God has laid down.. and is mentioned many times in the Old and New Testament as being totally unnacceptable to the Almighty.

I find this a refreshingly encouraging state of affairs.

I wonder if many people have contemplated how society would be if we had a 'god' who allowed and condoned all manner of dedonistic debauchery and human degradation.. and just called it 'fun'.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=77279

<<In "Nephilim Stargates: The Year 2012 and the Return of the Watchers," Thomas Horn ties moral abandonment to an ancient spirit, known in antiquity as the Greek god Dionysus (Roman Bacchus) who represented the personification of unrestrained sexuality.>>

“Does a society need atheists or Christians more?”

Society does not exist.

Only individuals and their families exist

And those individuals should be free to decide to follow any religion or creed they choose,

so long as that religion or creed respects the rights of other individuals to follow a different faith.

And it is on that final point which often exposes the fraud of many of those of the extreme religiously and atheistic minded.

An excellent post Col Rouge.Nothing more needs to be said.

WAIT ARJAY ..... I just found some very very cool quotes from a great preacher that are awesome :)

Let me say.. we need more Christians like this bloke! (when I say 'we' here..I mean the Church)

"You can't tell it like it is, if you don't believe it like it was."

"Most church members live so far below the standard, you would have to backslide to be in fellowship with them."

"Sometimes you hear congregations say concerning a preacher's message, ' I didn't get it.' It's not our place that they get it, it's our place to see that they hear it."

"Some preachers ought to put more fire into their sermons or more sermons into the fire."

"If you want to be popular, preach happiness. If you want to be unpopular, preach holiness."

Nowwwww ENUF is said :)

Welcome back from the GULAG Col :)

Dear David f,
What is your definition of a christian for my bible tells me that if the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead doesn't live in you you are not a christian at all. I would have to say from what I have read Adolf Hitler doesn't fit that requirement for the fruit of his life was death not life.