It was inevitable that some Americans would incorporate the Democratic presidential contender into their apocalyptic millenialist delusions, but it seems that the McCain campaign team thinks it’s such a compelling idea that it aired TV ads intended to appeal to this absurd paranoia.

Oddly, believing that Obama is a Muslim requires even more mental gymnastics than chalking him up as the devil. After all, if you already believe that we’re living in the Biblical “end times”, then you’re beyond the reach of reason and any fantastic scenario is possible to you.

But to believe Obama is a ”secret Muslim” requires a conviction that Islam is a unified force with the resources and co-ordination to successfully plot, over decades, to train an African-American politician to fake Americanism and Christianity in order to take the presidency.

Mockery aside, what will it mean for Obama’s presidency that a significant minority of his countrymen believe he is a Muslim and/or the tool of Satan? The hyper-religious southern states have always cherished the idea of secession, and the same Christian rightists are fond of shouting “kill him” at anti-Obama rallies.

Will the ignorant and apocalyptic leanings of trash America present a threat to the effective governance of the USA during the next decade?

Possibly. Could be another civil war — north/south. That'd be fun.

SANCHO.. The only thing I've seen about Obama which might be of concern is his citizenship records. Even that looks like some kind of weird "911 was us" conspiracy theory.

I don't believe he is in any way Muslim.
Anyone can be and often is a 'tool of satan' to the extent that they actively oppose the message of Christ. I don't see him doing that.

I'm glad I'm in Australia.

*and the same Christian rightists are fond of shouting “kill him” at anti-Obama rallies.*

That is the real worry. So many guns and so many fruitloops in the
USA, I will be amazed if he is not shot one day. All very sad
really.

Jumping to the wrong idea the threads title had me full of rage.
However a valid point has been made.
For those of us who see promise of real change in Obama and America fear also concerns us.
For me and maybe most of us, the real fear of the weirdness of America tells us he may be murdered.
But a great deal of good comes from that country too, he may be the man who changes America.
His needless death?
The impact of his murder would be very hard for that nation to live down.
Religion? how can such bigotry and hate be driven by something that is meant to unite all men.

Obama could just be the anything-American-haters clique worst nightmare.

It was always so convenient, and saleable, to label US foreign policy a derivative of white, red-necked old boys.

But apart from a few symbolic moves like downgrading involvement in Iraq –which would have happen anyway, I doubt if there’ll be many too changes on that front.

So that most noble and most vocal group will have to come up with some new lines, some new scenarios …but give then time, they’re sure to deliver ,they always do!

PS: Belly, what happen to your predictions that Obama would never make it -didn’t we have a wager on that ?

Horus gday, I must be getting old, well I am actualy.
The word mate is my best freind as I forget names all the time.
Now I may have said that, please point out the thread to me have pity on an old bloke.
But I am full of hope for him, you highlight my view exactly he can be a great change for America.
I in a thread here took his side strongly against Clinton.
I will admit in days long gone I referred to Rudd as krudd, but that was long before I got on his wagon.
I was on board before my party and held in contempt for it by some of his closest supporters today for it.
So no hard feelings but I remember a bet I had the federal Labor will increase its majority next time.
Wish I could be as sure of the Melb cup winner.
Show me the thread I need to know why I said it.
Obama? go you good thing!
The reality of 8 years of bush outweighs even the worst fears red neck America has about you.

Polycarp,

"I don't believe he [Obama] is in any way Muslim."

And if he were, would it make a scrap of difference? Apparently Colin Powell doesn't think so. Why would it matter?

"Anyone can be and often is a 'tool of satan' to the extent that they actively oppose the message of Christ."

Another of your innumerable phoney dualisms? To oppose Christianity doesn't make you a 'tool of satan' (whatever that means). Are you seriously claiming that all people who believe in another religion or who follow rational modes of thought are evil?

He's even WORSE than Damien Omen or.....*gasp* A MUSLIM...

He's black!.

I'm waiting for the headline that he's a African Allah worshipping witch doctor.....who eats babies.

And then I was watching TV as a southern fruitloop stated that Barack took his oath in the senate on the 'Koran'. Thank god I live in Oz (or was that Austria?).
how can these people claim to be the 'Leaders of the Free World'

Surfing the evangelical websites is a strange experience. Some scream "Obama is the anti-Christ!", but the really disturbing ones are where people take it as given, and calmly discuss how he'll climb to power in the service of Satan and how they're preparing themselves for "the end of days".

It's going to be a great disappointment to current teenage fans of Tim LaHay when there's no anti-Christ, no second coming, and they're dying regular, ignoble deaths in 2100.

Polycarp wrote: Anyone can be and often is a 'tool of satan' to the extent that they actively oppose the message of Christ.

If being a 'tool of satan' is bringing evil to this good earth Christianity with its intolerance, Crusades, Inquisition, Wars of the Reformation, conversion by force and the Holocaust promoted by years of Christian hatred is a tool of Satan.

Archbishop Jensen has used the phrase 'tool of satan' to apply to all non-Christian religions. When the message of Christ promotes intolerance and hatred people of good will must oppose it.

Satan is no more real than the tooth fairy or Santa.

Christian rightists shouting kill him?

They wont the christians if they do.

Theres two sorts of christians in this world...1.those who appertain to being christians like many here in Australia because its a supposedly-called christian country

...and 2. those who are genuinely committed to Jesus Christ and do the following 4 things.

1.read/listen to their Bibles daily,
2.pray without ceasing,
3.fellowship with other christians on an ongoing basis
and 4. witness to the need to receive Jesus as Saviour to escape the final Judgment.

Lumping the name Christian onto just anyone... is a great fallacy!

JMCC wrote: And then I was watching TV as a southern fruitloop stated that Barack took his oath in the senate on the 'Koran'. Thank god I live in Oz (or was that Austria?).
how can these people claim to be the 'Leaders of the Free World'

Dear JMCC,

I seem to recall an Australian prime minister calling it a 'black armband view of history' in responding to a call for him to recognise what past Australian governments have done to the Aborigines. Apparently the US is about to elect a dark skinned man as president. I am very happy to be a citizen of Australia and the US and vote for Obama by absentee ballot.

When do you think Australia might have a prime minister who is not an Anglo-Celt?

I have no idea what Obama's beliefs are although one thing is very clear. The vast majority of the Secular press have a far greater dislike for Christians than they do Muslims. We see the hate constantly portrayed to those who identify with Christ. We have witnessed the lies, the deceit, the vindictiveness against a Sarah Palin because:
1. She professes to be a Christian
2. She is a woman and not a feminist
3. She is a mother
4. She calls killing the unborn its right name (murder)
5. She decided to give birth to a child with a disability rather than kill it.

Anyone of these points leads a large percentage of the press to demonize her. The press would be a lot friendlier if she was to wear a head scarf and claimed that the Americans were an evil race who needed to be taught a lesson.

runner, you're delusional. Do you really, really, honestly believe that if Sarah Palin were to don a turban and say such things, she would be treated kindly?

Seriously. Take a few deep breaths and have a lie down - and remember - not everybody's out to get the Christians, (though many think the more fundamentalist ones can look pretty stupid sometimes, and stupidity is always a worrying trait in people with power).

Sancho, you state: "It's going to be a great disappointment to current teenage fans of Tim LaHay when there's no anti-Christ, no second coming, and they're dying regular, ignoble deaths in 2100."

Regrettably, to believe such nutbaggery one has to be quite talented at making justifications. So, there's no doubt in my mind that they would just perform a few mental gymnastics and go right on believing as they have.

Polycarp wrote:

"Anyone can be and often is a 'tool of satan' to the extent that they actively oppose the message of Christ."

A bigoted Muslim could say, "Anyone can be and often is a 'tool of satan' to the extent that they actively oppose the message of Mohammed."

Both statements are repulsive messages of bigotry.

It is hate garbage to characterise a person as a 'tool of satan' because that person actively opposes any religious idea. People have a right to believe what they will, push any belief, resist any belief or have no religious beliefs at all. They have a right to do any of the foregoing without being demonised.

TRTL

'Sancho, you state: "It's going to be a great disappointment to current teenage fans of Tim LaHay when there's no anti-Christ, no second coming, and they're dying regular, ignoble deaths in 2100."

It seems the gw high priests such as Al Gore, Tim Flannery, Garnaut disagree with you.

runner: << It seems the gw high priests such as Al Gore, Tim Flannery, Garnaut disagree with you. >>

TRTL's correct - you're delusional. Please indicate where Gore, Flannery or Garnaut have predicted anything to do with anti-Christs or second comings in 2010.

david f: <<Polycarp wrote:

"Anyone can be and often is a 'tool of satan' to the extent that they actively oppose the message of Christ."

A bigoted Muslim could say, "Anyone can be and often is a 'tool of satan' to the extent that they actively oppose the message of Mohammed." >>

I think that Porky does a very good job of being a "tool" - however, I don't think Satan's got anything to do with it.

*We have witnessed the lies, the deceit, the vindictiveness against a Sarah Palin because:*

Actually runner, the press are pretty much in agreement that she
simply hasn't got the brains to have her finger on the button of
16'000 or whatever nuclear weapons. Already she is talking about
war with Russia and she hasn't even been elected.

Bad judgement was the Bush/Cheney problem and bad judgement will
again be the problem, if Sarah Palin becomes prez-vice prez. That
is the reality.

Look where 8 years of Bush/Cheney has taken America. Their biggest
problem when Clinton left office, was what to do with the budget
surplus. Now America is a basket case, no matter how much George
prays to the lord.

Some posters in their fixation to convert the world to their version of Christianity (sic) have missed the point.

Debating (A structured contest between two delineated diametric opposing points of view)… is entertainment not reality, necessarily advance the topic and is never conclusive.
Yet some presumably intelligent individuals take every opportunity to hijack all topics in this way in the mistaken beliefs that
• They might win conversions or
• Have some ulterior/more personal reason for their tactics.

firstly all they succeeding in doing is entrenching others deeper into their own convictions.
The second is not the purpose of this site.

Rational inquiry draws conclusion from ALL the facts as “Truth is the destination not the journey”.

Arguments involving gross selectivity, tactics, argument by unrealistic extremes result in tedious rehashing of well known, understood self-referential dogma, ad hominem and gain saying.

Statistical (aggregation) may be appropriate in generalizations but when it comes to the individual (their beliefs) they are both invariably unrepresentative and potentially insulting to individuals.

Christianity/religion aren’t binary they exists in a cornucopia of flavours (as do people) all of which are valid to that individual. Were it not so God would be both capricious and unforgiving not worthy of reverence. To then assume that any one person has the right to change the view of others is arrogant and in extreme cases obscene.

Likewise while I am described as an atheist the above criticisms apply to those who are evangelistic ‘God busters’. This site doesn’t really boast these.

We all have much to offer by way of perspective if we can recognize opinion from facts and argue accordingly.

Objectively Obama is the better of two options but more importantly I wonder can any human live up to the Hype/expectation on him? Assuming that is, he can get past the racial paranoia/superiority that permeates US politics.
Palin is an example of this paranoia. Clearly she isn’t ready for world leadership one could argue she’s barely appropriate to run a state with a population comparable to Tasmania without losing focus on her role.

It really doesn’t matter whether Obama is a Christian or not. He calls himself a Christian but there is evidence to suggest that he is not a Christian in the traditional sense.
https://www.christianadc.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=45184

Obama is more Christian than McCain who divorce his wife for frivolous reasons (http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul/11/nation/na-divorce11). Obama is more Christian than Palin who abused her power while in office. He is more Christian than George Bush and Dick Cheney who went to war to line their pockets
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/dickcheney/halliburton.html
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0403-10.htm

He is more Christian than Bill Clinton who got a blowjob while in the White House.

Judging from Obama’s married life and the lifestyle of his family, we can be sure that America are in safe hands when he becomes the President

Philip Tang wrote: "He is more Christian than Bill Clinton who got a blowjob while in the White House."

What are the statistics on Christians vs. non-Christians getting blowjobs?

He also wrote: "Judging from Obama’s married life and the lifestyle of his family, we can be sure that America are in safe hands when he becomes the President."

I voted for Obama by absentee ballot because I thought he would be a better president. However, if I thought he would be worse than McCain I would not have voted for him.

An exemplary private life has little or nothing to do with a politician's competence in office.

Dear Spikey.. 'actively opposing' is quite different to simply holding different beliefs.

If you wish to see a good example of what 'actively opposing' is... feel free to explore what is happening in the Islamic world by Sunni's against Ahmadiyya's.

But actively opposing the message of Christ is, for example the Circumcision party that went about during Pauls time claiming Christians must obey the whole Mosaic law and also be circumcized.
This issue was dealth with at the firs council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.

THE DIFFERENCE if Obama was Muslim, is found in a considerable number of my posts. It would depend on what support base such a person had.
I don't think it would ever happen or be allowed to happen.
The question is not whether a person is Muslim, but their Islamic position. If he was a sufi.. like FH...probably no big deal. However, if he was a Wahabi .. a different story. If he simply said "I desire to follow the example of Mohammad" that would, in my opinion make him a Wahabi.

Tell me I am wrong but evidence seems to show extremists and fundamentalists in every religion are bigots.
Obama is Christian.
Polycarp if you have doubts about that find help, better still read the book you claim is your one to live by.
Clinton had a head job?
Tell me what former leader of America did not play up in office.
Obama is full of hope for us all, he will win, just hope the bigots and Fundy's do not kill him.

Polycarp,
If my memory serves me there is a Muslim in the US congress. One wonders if, as I suspect it's that he's not White is the real issue and the Muslim bit is a straw man.

“You can lead a koala to water but you can’t make it drink”. Those who are bigoted will continue to be so and will continually change their criteria rather than admit their views are base on emotion and fear rather than facts.
BTW koalas very occasionally drink.

Runner
I think your views are coloured by your concept of faith. The five reasons you give are unsustainable.
Keep in mind The US isn’t two discrete groups and contrary to common misconception fundamentalist Christians are as cohesive and as numerous as believed. Many find the idea of a woman in the white house is marginally more acceptable than a man of colour. One of their biggest fears was that republican rump may not even vote. So they promoted Palin to the ticket was to placate a small minority of religious zealots and attract disaffected Clinton supporters.

The GOP leadership is more concerned about winning.

Palin as a candidate was like a “polywaffle” appealing on the outside but a gooey white mess inside.
She proved to not have the public skills required as a potential Prez.
She was neither able to converse with the other moms of daytime TV or sound knowledgeable and coherent on issues facing the US. She had to be quarantined (protected) from her own country’s press. Imagine if she had to negotiate with real hostile parties? Like the congress etc.
Then there’s the unseemly mess with her heavying the police dept to sack her ex brother in law! To do that or even leaving herself potentially vulnerable displays her lack of focus.
She may well be the salt of the earth but salt is best in small quantities she is just not ready to run America. The press were right to rubbish her candidacy

Antony Green he may be the only one who finds elections more interesting than me.
On leaving this page this morning I will get into my favorites.
News Medea from across the world.
Never far from a radio tomorrow I will be more concerned about the outcome than watching my money go around in todays Melbourne cup.
Wish however I could be as sure as I am about Obama win, its in the bag.
Strange, bizarre really, he will catch new supporters after that win, many of those who are against him will forget they ever said things we will remember.
America will remain America warts and all, but it will be a better country.
More mature and if its the landslide it should be?
Well just maybe the country can get laws up that have been stalled by big business interests.
OPINIONS we all have them on every thing, how many of us are strong enough to say I was wrong?
To hold ourselves accountable for being so very wrong?
The good the bad and the ugly tomorrow America steps up to the plate and elects a black man, from a Christian/Muslim background he is and has been all his life a CHRISTIAN.
Who dares in the name of his/her God judge the man unfairly.
How quaint, Fundy's re write their Holy books as they go along.
David judge not less you be judged.

The NAME OBAMA IS REMARKABLY CLOSE TO THE NAME OF THE MABUS AS SPOKE OF IN THE PROPHESIES OF NOSTRODAMUS AS THE BLACK MAN SITTING IN THE GREAT SEAT.
NOSTRODAMUS SPOKE OF KENEDY .
AMERICA HAS PROBLEMS NOW HOW WILL IT BE IN A YEARS TIME.

Polycarp

Thanks for the gratuitous 'information' about active opposition versus simply holding different beliefs. But why do you turn again to historic Muslim religious oppositions and not, say, Catholics versus Protestants? (That's a rhetorical question to which I require no answer of course - not that you'd ever comment on Christian wars.)

Perhaps you could offer a comment on the undermining of democratic processes by ill-intentioned 'Christian' groups in the USA - and by extension to Australia?

Whats wrong with fundamentalists Belly?
To me christian fundematalists take a simple road... and believe that everything in the Bible is the truth.
They dont have room for porn, abortion, witchcraft, bad political systems, drugs, drunkenness, idolatry...
As jesus said "we are the salt of the earth".

Gibo salt can kill you too much of it is not good for you.
Fundy's are not mainstream Christians I wonder how you feel about Fundy's who are Muslims?
This thread is about a man who clearly is Christian.
Look at the post in caps above, tell me it is not defaming the bloke.
Gibo in fact just what did your Holy book mean by judge not less you be judged?
Claims made about such as Obama in the name of one of our worlds many Gods often sicken me.
We do you know Gibo have many Gods on this planet, why do you think we have so many?
Congrats to Obama and America on a win for both tomorrow our time.
We win too a better world is the result.

Jesus also had something to say about what to do with salt that's lost it's saltiness.

R0bert

Gibo: << Whats wrong with fundamentalists Belly? >>

Hard to know where to start, really. The words intolerance, bigotry, arrogance, paternalism, credulity, ignorance, dogmatism, hypocrisy and stupidity leap immediately to mind. I'm sure there are many others.

I think that Gibo, Porkycrap, runner and a few others do an excellent job on OLO of exhibiting what's wrong with fundamentalists.

While they probably perform some kind of Durkheimian sociological function, I think the world would be a better place with less fundamentalists - of any persuasion.

C J Morgan is a word smith I very often think I wish I had said that.
Without one vote being counted I am calling it for Obama.
True Sachimo is singing what a wonderfull world in my head.
No not a whole new one just a little bit better one.
Any world is better for not having Bush in charge.
Just maybe one wish from me?
That one day man will understand he made his/her Gods, did a good job but we no longer need them.
And that day we can truly start to be one humanity, no religion to teach us to hate others
Sing it Sachimo.

"What's wrong with fundamentalists?"

I suppose that depends on who the fundamentalist is and to what degree of fundementalism they adopt. Sometimes I think of myself as one, but I shudder in horror when I see what goes on among the fundamentalists in the USA.

Borrowing Gibo's definition: "believe that everything in the Bible is the truth" - I believe that the entire Bible is inspired by God, but don't necessarily believe all the events and people described in the Bible actually happened or existed. Jesus spoke in parables, and it is possible that some events noted in the Bible are recorded to tell us something.
"They dont have room for porn, abortion, witchcraft, bad political systems, drugs, drunkenness, idolatry" Porn - I find it unsatisfying so I leave it alone. Abortion - I'm a male so this won't apply to me. I don't like it, but don't think I've got the right to stop a woman from making her own choice. Witchcraft - I don't understand it, I don't believe in it, I am not interested in it. Drugs - I'm totally opposed to all illegal drugs. Drunkeness - I like to drink in moderation - the Bible does not forbid alcohol, Jesus himself drank and even turned water into wine. Idolatry - this is an interesting one and open to interpretation. Many fundamentalist Christians spend so much time trying to live a "good" life, that they haven't got time for God. In Jesus's time the Pharasees were trying to live holy blameless lives. I compare some of today's fundamentalists with the Pharasees. The message of true Christianity is that Jesus came to set us free. Not to bind us to a long list of must dos and must not dos (For many fundamentalists, this is actually a list of must be seen doing, and must not get caught doing). Their brand of Christianity actually becomes their idol.

Barack Obama has won the presidency.

A new hope for us all.

Well there it is, the USA has a new President, beginning next January.

I am just glad it is all over. Frankly I am sick to death of the coverage the US election gets. It is not as though it will make one iota of difference to us. Many US Presidents have come and gone, both Democrats and Republican and it is all the same to us.

Certainly an important matter for Amwricans but it is a pretty poor show for our media to devote so much time to it.

Just be thankfull it is over for another 4 years. But will have to endure more rubbish for a while yet.

A better world? yes very much so.
But Americas problems will not go away.
More will try to murder this great leader than any other who ever lead America.
May they fail.
Harsh idiotic claims he is the anti Christ or a Muslim plant will flow, some from true bigots in Christian covers.
No instant answers exist to the financial crisis.
Or the Bush made mess that is American foreign policy.
The middle east will not find peace before it finds more war.
But America reminded us today it is still a great country.

Belly, "A better world" You have to be joking!

I did not see any improvement when Kennerdy or Carter or Clinton were there, so what is the big difference with another Democrat.

I bet most Americans will not notice any direction change and it will make no difference to us or the rest of the world.

Take stock, has anything really changed since we changed government?

I'm just thankfull for the mute button on the remote, so it does not have to be listened to. It is a circus, either Democrat or Republican.

Bravo!

America voted for hope
not fear. For a man who was
judged not by the colour of his
skin, but the content of his character.

A man who will unite America, not
divide her. Who will bring people
together, not exclude them.

Yes, indeed, history was made today.

And, change is indeed going to happen under
the leadership of Barack Obama.

God Bless America!

How good is this...

Banjo,

Time to change your strings.

Foxy,

"Hope Springs Eternal" As they say, but I thought you would be much more pragmatic.

Little has changed in America irrespective of whether they had a Republican or a Democratic for President. So I hope you will not be too dissapointed after a year or so.

Hey, we voted for change with Whitlam, then Fraser, then Hawke and then Howard and now Rudd. Twelve months on and nothing has changed and they are almost halfway through their term.

I could not care less about who the Yanks elect for President.

I am far, far more concerned by the fact that two street racers only got minimums of 6 and 5 years after racing in an urban area at 130 k/hr and killing two people, in Sydney. The sentence was today and was almost hidden in all the hoopla about the US election. So much for our media!

I wish all the best for the new American administration and the American people, but will keep it in proportion. For us there are many more important matters.

Banjo if you can not see and feel the changes in Australia you are not qualified to discus politics.
The demented dwarf John Howard is now joined on the bench by the worst leader America ever had.
Unfortunately he was able to serve out his term, but like Johny short bottom had to watch his rejection by his people.
You appear much like a freind of mine, proud to say he did not know the election was on, missed the Melbourne cup, never knew it was on.
But holds firm views on every thing based on what?
America and Australia have more in common now.
Both have great young leaders who will make a difference.

I'm not an Australian citizen, but if I was I'd be a Labour voter, and I think John Howard was a failed Prime Minister, especially in his last term. Mr Rudd is a brilliant Prime Minister who's shown himself to be intellectually superior in debate, compared to the complaining rabble that is now the remains of the Liberal Party.

But, calling an ex prime Minister "demented dwarf" and "Johny (sic) short bottom" (you really should learn how to spell, Belly) only reflects on the maturity and intelligence of Belly, and NOT Mr Howard. Belly's abuse and name calling is about as dumb as it gets , and I can understand if nobody takes him seriously. He needs to grow up a bit, although it sounds like he's a old man. He should probably get out more and smell the flowers.

You can have your opinions, as may I.
And I will not take back one word.
Howard earned my contempt, he went to war with me and those I work for with work choices.
Than man hurt, truly hurt thousands of people who voted for him.
Kids showing Enterprise working in part time jobs had wage cuts to dreadful levels.
You have not done bad your self with insults yes I am past middle age, is it a sin?
You would never ever dare to talk to me like that face to face.
But if you put too much value on your own thoughts and under value your opponents you are twice defeated,I heaped praise on Howard he is far worse than that.
Children over board, AWB workchoices, calling Obama the terrorists choice, refusing to say sorry,lies about Iraq, contempt for his own team when they asked him to leave.
The list is long too long and history will judge him like it or not my party and Rudd its leader have much to do to fix the mans damage to this country it will be done.
By the way I am indeed past middle age, after all that has to be about 35 as few live past 70, I am fit and active and shamefully in your childlike view 63 years of age.

Hang on Banjo - Obama's election if nothing else, has given a lot of people,both black and white all over the world, Hope and Joy .

While ever Australians are fighting overseas, his thinking, and that of America will be important now and in the future.

You can vote for local political change to change your neighbourhood .

katiya jim,
Yes this US presidential election has given many hope and indeed joy, but I suspect it will be short lived. Not because of the man himself or because he is a Democrat, but because America will continue as it always has. Maybe a few cosmetic changes but little substantial or practical change.

As I said before,12 months since we voted for change and nothing has happened. Single pensioners are still struggling, NT intervention is still in place, Aboriginal kids are still being abused, poorly fed and uneducated. Boat people have arrived and guess what, we have them in detention. Election promises are not worth a bumper. They said they would use the navy to stop the whale killing but soon pulled the pin on that.

Yes I am cynical, and I have been around politics and politicians too long not to be. Politicians basicly revel in power and are in it for their own benefit. Former politician Graham Richardson said it all with his quote of "Whatever it takes" They have no morals and will sell out the country for their own benefit. Public servants jobs and services in NSW to go, but do not expect to see pollys pay cut or their lurks and perks go.

The financial crisis in the US will have far more effect on America
and the rest of the world than the change in the Preidential position. What actions will be taken because of that would be done irrespective of who the President is or what party he belongs to

Belly,
I think you have let yourself get carried away a bit. I see from your last post that you and i are of about the same vintage, so we both have seen a lot of politicians and politics.

Years ago I allowed myself to sucome to hope for a 'better world' but the many disapointments have dashed that. The false promises,lies and self interest of politicians, of all sides, I have seen and from what i have seen in many posts of yours, you have also. Not to mention the deceit and coruption from those held in high esteem.

It seems to me that it is only the rank and file members of political parties that are genuine and actually work for a better Australia.

That is why I was surprised by your comments of a 'better world' and 'this great leader'. Bit early dont you think?

I have you picked as an old Labor war horse, level headed, with both feet on the ground and I respect you for that. I leave the euphoria for the young.

Banjo I have watched your posts with interest and until just of late not seen such negativity from you.
We share more than an age group, ideas we both have supported are another thing.
Our age gives us a view of history some younger than us can never have.
I do not believe age or IQ are a barrier to understanding.
My lifetime learning has taught me not to pre judge.
Mate another thread reminds me of my very poor education in the formal since.
But I do not talk as I write, my view is we are so much better world today than yesterday.
Obama, first generation African America/ and America is so much better than Bush, remember the lynchings in the south in our lifetime.
Think of Nelson Mandela imprisoned in our lives then leading his country in that same life.
Both have no magic wands.
Both give us hope beyond anything I ever dreamed of.
I am no longer from the extreme left, with pride I know extremes right or left are not for me.
But Banjo I remain left of center till death this man will take us on a journey that I may not see the end of, hope is worth while do not let only the bad in America turn your head
And even if I spell it wrong Mr Armstrong still sings what a wonderful world in my head.

Banjo

You're not cynical you are sour.

If you can't perceive a difference between the politics, intelligence, integrity and sincerity between someone like Obama and Palin..... there's just no pleasing you at all is there?

No one, least of all Obama, expects to solve all the world's problems - he said as much in his acceptance speech.

I think by now everyone on OLO knows you are not at all impressed by any politicians. We get it.

Now move on.

In the end Americans decided what kind
of election they wanted to participate in -
the politics of cynicism or the politics of hope.

They chose hope.

As Barack Obama told them:

"America, this is our moment. This is our time.
Our time to turn the page of the policies
of the past."

"It's not because John McCain doesn't care.
It's because John McCain doesn't get it!"

That's why John McCain lost the election.

"We have been told we cannot do this by
a chorus of cynics who will only grow louder
and more dissonant in the weeks to come.
We've been asked to pause for a reality check.

We've been warned against offering the people
of this nation false hope. But in the unlikely
story that is America, there has never been
anything false about hope.

For when we have faced down impossible odds; when
we've been told that we're not ready, or we
shouldn't try, or that we can't, generations of
Americans have responded with a simple creed
that sums up the spirit of the people.

Yes we can."

That's why Barack Obama won this election.

Will he achieve what he promised?

Yes he will!

Of that I have no doubt.

Banjo you have spoken the truth and many don’t like that especially Fractelle. You have dashed her hope of a better world under Obama’s leadership. However, with Bush out of the office, there is no other way except to go up.

Philip Tang

Whatha? How have my hopes been dashed?

Speak for yourself, you are only person on this thread who apparently agrees with Banjo.

I am still relishing the thought that a right-wing white man and his religious fundy running mate are no longer a threat to the USA and the rest of the world.

Read it and weep.

Fractelle, banjo wrote,

“Years ago I allowed myself to succumb to hope for a 'better world' but the many disappointments have dashed that. The false promises, lies and self interest of politicians, of all sides, I have seen and from what i have seen in many posts of yours, you have also. Not to mention the deceit and corruption from those held in high esteem.”

This accords with the Judeo/Christian tradition of what one wise-man wrote very long ago,

“If you see the extortion of the poor, or the perversion of justice and fairness in the government, do not be astonished by the matter. For the high official is watched by a higher official, and there are higher ones over them!” (Ecc 5:8).

For this reason, Obama could have spoken with greater moral authority had he declared openly where his $640 millions campaign fund came from. It’s an open secret that a sizable portion came from captains of industries and foreign donors.

Philip Tang,

On President-elect Obama's election fund: "It’s an open secret that a sizable portion came from captains of industries and foreign donors."

If it's such an open secret, perhaps you would enlighten us on where the actual evidence sits?

Fractelle shows his/her racism

'I am still relishing the thought that a right-wing white man and his religious fundy running mate are no longer a threat to the USA and the rest of the world.'

He/she ignores that many of the injustices throughout the world are being carried out by corrupt coloured Politicians. Don't let plain facts get in the way of your own racism though!

Dear runner,

You know that corruption doesn't have a colour.
It's the character of the politician that matters.

Obama won not because of the colour of his skin,
but the content of his character.

As he told the American
people :

"America, this is our moment.
This is our time.
Our time to turn the page
of the policies of the past."

And Americans were ready for a change.
It was the biggest voter turnout ever.

Barack Obama won because he gave people hope,
not fear. He united people, not divided them.

Hopefully, the politics of hope will win again
in the future.

Spikey,

Two interesting articles.

(a) By Patrick Martin in Feb 2008 showed why and how the ruling elite and well-connected endorsed Obama.

“The huge swing to the Democratic Party in campaign contributions from big business reflects this emerging consensus. According to recent financial reports to the Federal Election Commission, investment bankers have tilted their financial support overwhelmingly to the Democratic Party, giving roughly equal amounts to Clinton and Obama. In total contributions, both Clinton and Obama collected more than $100 million apiece in 2007, more than twice the largest amount raised by any Republican, while Obama raised an additional $32.6 million in January 2008 alone.”

“Among those backing the Obama campaign are such pillars of the US political establishment as Zbigniew Brzezinski, national security adviser to President Jimmy Carter and an arch-Cold Warrior; retired Air Force General Merrill McPeak and a host of other retired military brass; billionaire Warren Buffett, the second-richest man in America; and an array of Wall Street and corporate executives, none of whom could be suspected of any sympathy for radical social change.”

"Obama’s mantra of bringing everyone together may appeal to the naïve illusions of youth who are making their first political experiences, but Obama and the Wall Street bankers and media moguls who are promoting him know exactly what they are doing."

http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/5580

(b) Journalist Arrested when taking pictures of Democratic senators and corporate donors.

Overall, 135 protesters have been arrested this week in Denver. The police crackdown has also spread to media workers. On Wednesday, a producer for ABC News was arrested as he tried to take pictures of Democratic senators and corporate donors leaving a private meeting at a downtown hotel. Video footage shows the journalist, Asa Eslocker, standing on a public sidewalk. An officer forces him across the street and shoves him. Eslocker is then put in handcuffs. Police say Eslocker is being charged with trespass, interference and failure to follow a lawful order. He was taking the pictures as part of a week-long ABC News series on the role of corporate lobbyists and donors at the Democratic convention.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QaIrut9rTc
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/28/headline

Foxy

'You know that corruption doesn't have a colour.
It's the character of the politician that matters.'

Exactly Foxy and we will find out what this man's character is in the next few years. Hopefully like Mr Bush he will have the courage to defend the unborn (that would take some character).

Dear Philip,

Media moguls, investment bankers and the like do not give money to a candidate only because they agree with the ideas of that candidate. Quite often more than one competing candidate receives money from the same source. in fact big corporate donors usually give to to more than one competing candidate.

One reason they give to candidates is so they will have a degree of influence when the candidate is elected. Money talks. Once big givers see that Obama is favoured then they will give. Obama raised a lot of money after he was almost unanimously predicted to win. Most people would see no point in giving money to a candidate who is predicted to win because the candidate doesn't need it.

If one is trying to buy entry or influence that is when such an entity would give money. That is one reason for public financing of campaigns.

In Norway no contributions to candidates or political advertising is allowed. TV times is given to candidates in which they must face each other and debate ideas and prospective acts with no moderator directing questions at them.

If corporate donors groom a candidate as Bank of America and other corporate interests backed and groomed Ronald Reagan then that is evidence that those interests want him in office. Most of Obama's early money came from people like me. My small contribution gives me absolutely no influence. It gave me the satisfaction of giving to a candidate who called the Iraq War stupid when other politicians backed it, a candidate who chose to become a community organiser rather than a big-time corporate lawyer and a candidate who seemed to have a reflective and intelligent approach rather than an emotive one. I think many others felt the same way.

Runner wrote: "Exactly Foxy and we will find out what this man's character is in the next few years. Hopefully like Mr Bush he will have the courage to defend the unborn (that would take some character)."

Apparently Runner defines character as someone who will do what he wants.

If a leader chooses to back abortion rights he or she is choosing not to return to the days when the chief cause of death of women of childbearing age was illegal abortions. He or she is also letting women have a choice in whether to bear a child or not. Statistical studies have shown a decrease in crime rates in offenders who would have been born starting about 15 years after Roe vs. Wade went into effect. Apparently some pregnant women were aware that giving birth in their current circumstances would have resulted in a child more likely to engage in crime.

I would like to see no abortions at all, and I think most of the women who have abortions would have preferred not to have become pregnant in the first place. However, unless there is complete prevention of unwanted pregnancies there will continue to be a need for legal abortion.

Some display what surely is bigotry on speaking of this man.
I see some who claim to be Christians judging him here.
In fact clearly against the teachings of their particular version of God they judge.
That no spin news group, the one that tells that lie to cover mass lies, is beyond belief in its reporting.
Just yesterday or the day before it reported the McCarthy era as left wing spin, saying the anti communist fight had been needed.
Like Foxy , in fact like millions around the world, I am full of hope because of this man.
And because America elected him, he is no miracle worker, he can however turn his country in better directions.
Each journey does have a first step America has taken it.
Runner, sorry but every post you make to me confirms the view man must take that next step, rejecting religions that trade in fear and gobble gook to find followers.

Anti-Christ or Muslim? How about neutral or all-rounder. Leaders should never put there religious beliefs on one side or the other, though the now, and humans are not totally convinced of anything of a supernatural nature.

Runner! Stay off the drugs!:)

All living things are electrochemical. The spark of life can be best described by looking at a glow stick. Two chemicals mix and BAM! life begins. There was talk about the life on a cellular level. Runner! life things are made in special conditions, and this planet is one of those places.

Abortions on the cellular level I will except, but I agree with you, that once the brain as started, the answer must be NO!

Obama is the best card to play to wipe out this racist division thing and we all know humans will defend there clans, but these times are over.

When the ship is sinking, I don't care what hand it is, as long as its human.:)

GOD may dis-agree with that! Depending how small your brain is.:)

EVO

Here is a song for you all.

There was a soldier, a Scottish soldier
Who wandered far away and soldiered far away
There was none bolder, with good broad shoulders,
He fought in many a fray and fought and won
He's seen the glory, he's told the story
Of battles glorious and deeds victorious
But now he's sighing his heart is crying
To leave these green hills of Tyrol.

Chorus:
Because these green hills are not highland hills
Or the Islands hills their not my lands hills,
As fair as these green foreign hills may be
They are not the hills of home.
2. And now this soldier, this Scottish soldier,
Who wandered far away and soldiered far away
Sees leaves are falling, and death is calling
And he will fade away, on that dark land
He called his piper, his trusty piper
And bade him sound away, a pibroch sad to play
Upon a hillside but Scottish hillside
Not on these green hills of Tyrol
Chorus:
3. And now this soldier this Scottish soldier
Who wanders far no more, and soldiers far no more
Now on a hillside, a Scottish hillside
You'll see a piper play this soldier home
He's seen the glory, he's told the story
Of battles glorious and deeds victorious
But he will cease now, he is at peace now
Far from these green hills of Tyrol
Chorus

signed the peoples greatest friend

EVO

Dear David_F...

reviewing the posts here.. and noticed yours about:

<<A bigoted Muslim could say, "Anyone can be and often is a 'tool of satan' to the extent that they actively oppose the message of Mohammed.">>

No.. ur quite wrong :) it's not the 'bigoted' Muslim who says this kind of thing..it is the Quran.. and not only that, it proscribes a specific 'this world/here and now' punishment for it.

Quran 5:33 33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

IBN KATHIR respected Muslim historian and theologian/commentator.

<< `Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil.>>

COMMENT:

1/ Notice at the end of the verse the punishment is IN THIS world.. AND in the herefter. If you read earlier in the same surah, you will find some references to the BLASPHEMY of Christians... claiming Christ is son of Mary. So...put the 2 together.

a) Christians Blaspheme
b) Ibn Kathir says "Mishcief means those who contradict the prophet"
c) Punishment..crucifixion...in THIS world...

Using the same criteria for the Christian side...the actual guideline...which no serious Christian would dispute..is found here:

II Cor 10:1-4

<<By the meekness and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am "timid" when face to face with you, but "bold" when away! 2I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world.>>

David....could the contrast be clearer?

Polycarp wrote:

"1/ Notice at the end of the verse the punishment is IN THIS world.. AND in the herefter. If you read earlier in the same surah, you will find some references to the BLASPHEMY of Christians... claiming Christ is son of Mary. So...put the 2 together.

a) Christians Blaspheme
b) Ibn Kathir says "Mishcief means those who contradict the prophet"
c) Punishment..crucifixion...in THIS world..."

Dear Polycarp,

Maybe you are approaching the truth. One religion's belief is another religion's blasphemy.
To Jews and Muslims Christianity is a blasphemy. We are strict monotheists. God is not divided in three parts. There is no humanoid god.

To Christians it is blasphemy to deny Jesus.

The solution is to admit that people are entitled to believe whatever they want. Christians, Jews and Muslims should accept each other beliefs.

Some Muslims are wise enough to accept that other people believe differently and accept it. Some Christians like Bishop Spong also have that wisdom. I attended the Abrahamic Faiths Forum in Brisbane where Jews, Christians and Muslims got together. Most of the Christians were from the Uniting Church although there were others.

Jews have the advantage over Christians and Muslims in the fact that, although Jews accept converts, they will not missionise and go out and seek them. Missionary activity has an evil history.

You keep on quoting ugly Suras and ignoring the actuality of much of current Islam. You also deny the bigotry in Christianity.

It might profit you to attend an interfaith forum.

I will try to love my enemies even though the enemy historically has been most often a Christian. I suggest that you try to love Muslims, Catholics and homosexuals. I will even try to love you. I refuse to join you in your hate for Islam.

Hi David
well... you say I quote 'ugly' surah's and ignore much of contemporary Islam.

You forget..I've lived under that "ugly" Islam. (even in a moderate form it is still most ugly to those it is seeking to oppress)

You said:

Maybe you are approaching the truth. One religion's belief is another religion's blasphemy.

Indeed..and perhaps you are also coming closer to the truth there..

Please focus your gaze on the passage of II Cor 10:1-4 that I provided..and see exactly how we Christians are commanded to 'fight' our wars.
As far as I know...there is no passage similar which informs us about how to wage the spiritual warfare that we are a part of. It does not mention weapons of warfare of a human kind. It DOES (sorry but this seems to be repeatedly lost on some) speak specifically about 'not' being carnal/human/worldly.

THE DIFFERENCE... as I did point out.. what you describe as an 'ugly' surah is in fact a direct command from Allah and his messenger to Muslims. The punishment IS.... not 'might be.. if you feel like it.. could be... maybe.. see how you feel on the day'...nope..it IS.. "crucifixion" and dismemberment or exile.

Now..I freely and happily agree that this directly commanded punishment is seldom dished out in places where Islam is not the absolute majority.

But if you are brave and adventurous...I dare/challenge you to say "Surah 5:33 is an ugly surah" in the main street of Riyadh.
I think you would find certain religious police take strong exception to your words.

You might also try it outside Lakemba Mosque.. or..the State Mosque in Kelantan Malaysia.

Muslims already know that they can bring an ugly crowd to Westminster Cathedral and scream "May Allah curse the Pope" (which of course is a quote from 9:30) and the most Christian people will do is look bewildered......(mainly about why the police allow such a thing)
http://static.flickr.com/91/246208856_52ee4fd8ac_o.jpg

Polycarp wrote:

"But if you are brave and adventurous...I dare/challenge you to say "Surah 5:33 is an ugly surah" in the main street of Riyadh.
I think you would find certain religious police take strong exception to your words."

Of course I would not do such a foolish thing. Fortunately I live in a secular country where the evils of Christianity have been restricted by law. Denying the virgin birth or the Trinity when state and church were one in Europe could bring one to the torture chamber and the stake.

I don't forget you have lived under Islam. I also do not forget the Holocaust and the other evils resulting from Christian bigotry and hate.

It is a great blindness to think your fundamentalist nonsense is somehow better than Islamic fundamentalist nonsense.

Polycarp wrote:

"Please focus your gaze on the passage of II Cor 10:1-4 that I provided..and see exactly how we Christians are commanded to 'fight' our wars."

Dear Polycarp,

You keep picking quotes from your fairy tale book. I can't seem to get through to you. Other people pick other quotes showing how the horrible Christian record proceeds from the scriptures.

However, the quotes are not important. What is important as I have said many times is the bloody record of Christianity. That is what affects others - not the quotes from your fairy tale book.

If, like Bishop Spong, the Evangelical Sisters of Saint Mary and other Christians of good will, you confront the horrible record of Christianity, repent for your past sins and try to change for the better in the future that will mean something. You will probably cite more quotes from your fairy tale book, but the quotes don't change the bloody record.

The bloody record of Christianity is worse than the bloody record of Islam. That is what matters. That makes Christianity inferior to Islam because of the rotten fruit.

Bishop Spong, the Evangelical Sisters of Saint Mary and other Christians of good will admit the past, repent and are trying to change your religion for the better. You keep pulling quotes from your fairy book to somehow make you better than Islam which has a more humane record than Christianity. All your quotes do not erase that bloody record.

A thread on Obama turns into a Christian versus Muslim debate. There may be bushbashers in OLO but there are certainly no Muslim bashers.

Like all groups of people, most Muslims are peace-loving people.

The distinction is made between Islam as a totalitarian ideology and Muslims as a people.

The wars of aggression caused by Islam on non-Muslims (Arabs, Persian, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Mongols, Russians, Chinese, Hindus, etc. etc.) since the inception of Islam is documented in http://www.historyofjihad.com/sitemap.html

Two websites were started by secular atheists ex-Muslims from Asia. They were born into the faith and know intimately all the aspects of Islam.

Ali Sina has put in a lot of hard work and suffered financially in telling the world the truth about his former “religion”, Islam. http://www.faithfreedom.org/Author/Sina.htm

When M. A. Khan came across Ali Sina’s website, it took him about six months of internal struggle before he too left Islam to set up http://www.islam-watch.org/

Philip Tang wrote:

The wars of aggression caused by Islam on non-Muslims (Arabs, Persian, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Mongols, Russians, Chinese, Hindus, etc. etc.) since the inception of Islam is documented in http://www.historyofjihad.com/sitemap.html Atheists Christians

I found this on the site at:

http://www.historyofjihad.org/israel.html

"The Muslims have always been not only desperate, they have also always been sadistic and murderous. While their adversaries were brave and chivalrous. Neither the Sassanid Persians, nor the Byzantines, nor the Chinese, nor Hindus, nor had the Visigoths of Spain indulged in wholesale slaughter of their adversaries just for the sheer pleasure of killing, The slaughter of their adversaries just for the sheer pleasure of killing, has been a Muslim instinct. The Muslims have done this and still do it and shall continue to do so, till we physically terminate all off them before they can destroy human civilization."

The above tells me that it is a hate site:

“They have always been sadistic and murderous. While their adversaries were brave and chivalrous.”

The same old nonsense - we are good. They are bad. Therefore we must “physically terminate all off [sic] them”.

It is an invitation to genocide.

Christians, Jews, Muslims and others are all human. We must NOT physically terminate anybody merely because of their ethnicity or religion.

Surely I am not alone in believing the last two posts to this thread support my views?
We mankind would be better without religions.
Islam/Christianity/and the Jewish faith come from the same roots.
From the very same part of the world.
All can be tracked back to older Gods and idols.
Yet today more often than not each preaches the others crimes, even tells us of the intent to kill us all.
Phillip I followed your thread to that site long ago.
I understand we need to understand why so much hate is generated by so many from within that group.
Few seem to visit it yet it has some merit if the posts are true.
However did you really want us to believe there are no Muslim haters here at OLO?
The thread I think was started to highlight bigotry against Obama.
It highlights for me at least that we may well be better humans without any religion.

belly how right you are, and all this after 12 pages of nonsence.

david f,

The website http://www.historyofjihad.com/ is not a hate website, neither is its mission to demonise Muslims, but rather to speak the truth about Islam through what had happened in history.

The West seems to have forgotten the conflict between Islam and the Hindus of India, which had gone on for centuries.

Anwar Shaikh was a devout Muslim from India who killed one Hindu and two Sikhs for the cause of Islam. At 25 he regretted what he did and left Islam altogether. In 1973, he made it his mission to tell the world the true nature of Islam.
http://www.islam-watch.org/AnwarSheikh/index.html

Commenting on one of his books, Shaikh said,

“My book has a relevance to entire mankind, but is especially to India because before the coming of Islam, India was a prosperous, peaceful and proud country, which has not only been reduced to extreme poverty and ignorance by the Muslim predators and the Islamic rule, but has also been fragmented into geographical and political units. This book clearly demonstrates that, as Islam seeks to impose Arab cultural imperialism on other nations through a doctrine of divide and murder, India and Islam cannot live together. This book is a must for India.”

It was documented by Senator Edward Kennedy that 2.5 million Hindus were killed in East Pakistan in the 1970s.
http://www.hinduhumanrights.org/Bangladesh/kennedy.htm
http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/hindu_bangla.html

This incident was brought up under the title “The Pakistani Slaughter That Nixon Ignored , Syndicated Column by Sydney Schanberg, New York Times, May 3, 1994.

The website traced how Muslims systematically killed off Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh until they only form a few percent of the population.
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0401/64.html

It is not surprising that after 61 years of independence from Britain, Pakistan and Bangladesh are failed states. Islamic fundamentalism runs deep in the country, polygamy, hatred for all things non-Islamic, discrimination against women, hate speech spewing from mosques, all stands in the way of peace and progress.

Zulfikar Khan has put together many articles showing how Hindus were systematically killed in many parts of India over the years.
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/

Yet another post that screams at me man needs no religions.
While I will not live to see it, IF religion does not kill us all, we one day will have such a world.
One that sees no difference between humans, one that truly understands the miracle of life is for every human.
One that finds no need to express joy or fear that a man of color is now the leader of America.
Please do not quote your holy book to me, just answer this question.
Was God intending us to be divided like this?
Did he make some men so they could forever be the enemy of the rest?
What Right do any of us have to say only our God is the one?

Dear Philip,

Islam does have a bloody record. However, what gets me is the idea that Christianity with its Inquisition, Crusades, conversion by force, Wars of the Reformation and the Holocaust can somehow with its own bloody record feel superior.

I quote again from the site

"The Muslims have done this and still do it and shall continue to do so, till we physically terminate all off them before they can destroy human civilization."

When one calls for genocide as that website you cited does that is a hate site.

Dear Belly,

Your contention that we would be better off without religion may well be right. However, humans seem to want nonsense. Astrology, religion, ideology whatever. There seems to be a need to believe in unprovable propositions rather than accept the fact that we live in an uncertain world where we are just another species. If we propagate more than a reasonable amount we will suffer. We may label the unknowable as God, historical necessity - whatever. We have to live with believers in religion, and it is not a realistic hope that we can escape it.

Wow. Did that site really make that comment? Calling for them to be wiped out?

What unbridled idiocy. Frankly, it reduces the site to precisely what it criticises and makes anyone who would quote from it look rather stupid.

BTW guys, you know what I'd rate as the absolute, last thread topic, of anything in the entire world, that this site needs?

The one this one's become. Honestly, this consistent descent into matters Christian vs Muslim borders on the pathological in its frequency.

Tang, to address your topic-related commentary (to hell with this Christian V Muslim crap. Enough already) - the first point I'd make, was that when Obama's campaign was in its infancy, in the earliest days when finance was crucial and corporations could really get their foot in the door with donations, Obama ended up raking it in from a multitude of smaller donations.

Yes, it appears he's taken some larger ones, however that's the case for all the candidates, and I'd say on reflection that Obama's less likely to have been 'bought' as it were than other candidates, given that the donations are spread more widely - if we think of influence as a % of money donated to his campaign, then there are no significantly huge contributors, it's spread too thin. None of them can claim any kind of monopoly.

Besides, if it's accountability we're after, I'd say things are already looking better, judging by the standards required of prospective applicants for an Obama administration:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24650517-5013948,00.html

Turn right then left I quoted from it.
But I never read that quote.
I visited the site because I search for answers.
I constantly want to be informed on issues.
It did not answer my questions nor did it impress me all that much.
It seems to be a collection of letters and statements from alleged ex Muslims.
It had hate history things in posts but it never told me why SOME Muslims hate the rest of us so much.
It did not silence my fears that a war will come because of hate.
It did not take away my concerns at past Christian acts just as bad.
Or Jewish ones.
And my search for answers may take me to worse sites but my one question needs answers.
Why do so many need to kill in the name of a God?
How can any one think that the God they worship is better than the others God?
or in truth that a God demands blood in this century just as much as the most primitive ones did century's ago?

Belly wrote:

"Why do so many need to kill in the name of a God?"

One proves devotion to God by being willing to commit what would normally be considered an atrocity. The willingness of Abraham to sacrifice Isaac was a paradigm of that phenomenon. It is a heinous crime to murder your own son, but to show his devotion to God Abraham was willing to commit that heinous crime. For Bible bashers who will note that Abe did not actually commit the crime one can cite Jepthah who did murder his daughter to satisfy a vow that he would sacrifice the first creature to greet him.

The God of the New Testament is also a sadistic monster. He sacrifices his own son in a horrible manner (possibly to prove his devotion to himself)

Faith begets atrocity.

A convert shows devotion to his new allegiance by willingness to condemn his former associates. A secular example of that was the demand during the McCarthy period that former communists inform on their old associates. Former Muslims also may be subject that test. Their testimony should be regarded with a grain of salt.

Belly also asked: "How can any one think that the God they worship is better than the others God? or in truth that a God demands blood in this century just as much as the most primitive ones did century's ago?"

Technology has advanced, but the concept of a god by its nature remains a primitive idea.

Dear David,
Your lack of knowledge and understanding is showing . If you want chapter and verse I will give it to you. BUT it will take a focus or paradyne shift on your part to see the truth And I am not prepared to argue foolishly over words . You quoted the bible and I believe in the final authority of the bible not my words or yours.

Dear David,
Please forgive me I read your post wrong. It was Belly who said Abraham was prepared to commit atrosity for his God .
The God of the new testament is also a sadistic monster.
Faith begets atrocity . Which proves his complete misunderstanding of who the creator is .

Richie 10 there is a bit of it going around.
Near the top of the thread Horus put words in My mouth I never said.
Failed to retract them too.
I searched the thread wondering why I would highlight early Christian.Pagan human sacrifice in those or any terms.
Well I never said it!
Please watch that, it is important to not quote things that did not take place.
My early morning swim in threads found one under God questioning the source of the evidence Christians use too say the world is 6.000 years old.
Now I find I am questioning how much more that some say is quite wrong.

Dear Belly,
I am sorry but I was quoting david f from his post.
Genesis 1-1 says In the begining God created the heavens and the earth. O.T. John 1-1 N.T. says In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the WORD was God . This is something under one god is reported to have denied in a previous post. unless you learn the nature of God you are going to accuse him of putting the curse on people and he gets the blame for many things which are totaly opposed to his nature . Only God is good. ALL men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God . Jesus was sinless .Born of a woman conceived by the Holy Spirit not by the flesh . He inherited the Fathers sinless nature, not Adam's sinful human nature and without that destinction the whole story has no authority.

Dear Richie 10:

If you look at my post you will see that it started with the two lines below.

Belly wrote:

"Why do so many need to kill in the name of a God?"

There are quotes around what Belly said. The remarks not in quotes following are what I added. Of course the god of the Bible is a sadistic monster, He requested that a man kill his son and subjected his own son to torment and death. However, not to worry. The God of the Bible is merely the product of an ugly myth. I certainly do not feel he is a good role model. You most probably are someone who would not subject your own son if you have one to torment and death so it really makes no sense to worship a sadistic monster who is not as good as you are.

However, I try to be scrupulous in quoting people and put quotes around their remarks.

The Bible like the stories of the Greek and Roman Gods is largely myth. Some people believe the current popular myth in the same way some people believed in former popular myths about the doings of Jupiter or Zeus and his buddies.

Dear Richie 10:

Belly asked the question: "Why do so many need to kill in the name of a God?"

I merely answered in the case of those who believe in the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible commanded indiscriminate slaughter. The following portion from the King James Version illustrates that.

Joshua 6:19 But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the LORD: they shall come into the treasury of the LORD. 6:20 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. 6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

Not only humans are killed but even their domestic animals.

The God of the Bible wiped out almost all life on earth in the flood.

Hitler was small potatoes compared to the God of the Bible. However, I believe I answered Belly’s question, at least, for those who follow the Bible.

Hitler and other monsters of history have acted in the image of the God of the Bible. Although Hitler did not succeed in wiping out almost all life on earth as the sadistic monster, God, he did fairly well for a human behaving in a god-like manner. Hitler was a true Christian.

to you all, slaves to religion,

and now we have a Baptist pastor (with a mid USA accent) in the Illawarra region of NSW saying on SKY TV that all Jews will go to Hell because they have not submitted to the views of the Lord Jesus and not embrased his teachings, OH! and all others to (like me). How good is this? He wants all of the world to join the sect for our own salvation.
Is this not the same nonsence sprouted by Islam.

Igronance is bliss but is no excuse in law. Unless that law has been changed also.

We drift from the subject.
Yes me too.
It happens in any thread that mentions God.
The last few posts have great interest for me.
And another view of one Holly book the Bible has been seen.
Re written so many times, even changed too, it is no longer the same.
Bits fall out of use, few preach about the murder of those people.
In fact the best defense of a God, any of the massive number man has, seems to be quoting from the fictional books of that God, and claiming an inner knowledge but not giving evidence to support it.
We have seen science fiction turned into a religion and we will see many more Gods invented before we understand man can walk alone.