Banjo,

I think you have confused me with someone else, my point was that examining scripture was a waste of time, since any interpretation can be drawn from this nonsese.

Banjo
Its way too late for England I agree. I think we Australians and our Government must state at the outset that its not our intention to offend devout Muslims. We must explain to them we are not trying to hurt their feelings or to embarress them in any way.

I know Banjo from personal dealings thatMuslims are good, hard working people mostly and many have overcome iompossible odds to make a new home in the west.
However we know lots of muslims take personal offense at any criticim of their religious beleifs. They cant understand that " freedom of religioun in the west means that people are free to critize Islam as well as any other religion.

This fredom is something we gaurd with our lives. its hard for them to get it because they lived in Isklamic countries.
If they did that there it would be punishable by death.

However since Muslims evidentlty dont have a problem what so ever

in openly critizing other religions, why should they have a problem with people who critise Islam. After all its the samre bill of rights that guarantees to Muslims the freedom to critise other religions.
Its got to cut both way and its up to OUR government to educate people BEFORE they come.
I might addd i havent met a Muslim yet that worries too much about that type of thing but I know they do exsist.
After all look at the Parometic.

What I hate is people calling us racist simply for holding a view and standing up for the principle of your own country that your Fathers and grandfather fought to allow us to live in freedom.
I am not speaking about Boazie either that is spreading hatred.

mac,
You are quite right. I attributed spooky's comments to you. I am sorry about that. My apologies.

Pale,
You have made a very important point. "Its got to cut both ways and it is up to OUR Government to educate people BEFORE they come"

EXCELLANT This may have been the case forever, but we have only been giving immigrants information about us, our society, etc. after they have got a visa to come here. This is too late as they already have decided to come. They have had to rely on their own resourses to get info and if they relied on friends and relos here, then of course they want them to come so a rosy picture is painted.

This may not have mattered much when most migrants came from England and Europe but that has not been the case more recently, so it is well past time that we changed what and when we inform prospective migrants.

In the last half of last year the then Minister ordered this info be made available when someone picked up a visa application. I understand that printing of the material, in various languages, was being done. I don't know what has happened since, but I think the matter is still under review by the new Minister. I only hope it is continued as it is vital.

I want applicants to know that our beach girls are very scantily dressed, we don't eat dog meat, girls work and drive themselves, christmas is celebrated and shops decorated,FGM is unlawful as is arranged marriages, polygomy, honor killings and cockfighting, for example. With pictures if necessary.

With this info some may decide not to come and if they do then we can honestly say that they were told about us and our life style.

At the same time we must enforce our laws and maintain our social standards.

Philip,

If I remember correctly Egypt initiated the Sinai liberation/yom kippur on the 6th of October 1973 (which was the 10th of Ramadan of the Islamic calendar) and was supported by most muslim countries. I am no expert but I don't think its a black and white thing. So you and Irfan are both right or both wrong :)

Peace,

Re Trees/Mac
“Millions of innocent trees have died … have been wasted examining the Quran in order to score some obscure point”
So that’s why the Middle East is so devoid of trees!
They used to say that desert landscapes begat religiosity but perhaps it’s the other way around.

Re Polycarp
On the main issue, I tend to agree with David.
What is a proper study of Islam an examination of the Koran and Haddith, or the study of your next door neighbor who claims to be Muslim but only follows what takes his fancy?

If you see the measure of Islam as the niceness of fellow humans living in a prosperous society, then it’s easy to see David criticisms as over-the-top .
-There’s been no further attacks on US soil since 9/11.
-The London bombings are fading from memory, and
-The Australian terrorist wannabes , if past standards are maintained , will sooner or later be given early release and compensated for some or other technical breech of their rights.

But, if you look outside our liberal Western bubble.
Terrorism which claims inspiration from Islamic texts, is a daily part of life for many in Asia and Africa,
And yes, there are other forms of terrorism, but:
i) Whining ‘They do it too’ hardly absolves Islam, and
ii) Islam’s brand of terrorism seems to be particularly long lasting and systematic

To characterize it in genetic terms .There are some nasty genes in Islam’s genome.They may not always find expression – but they’re always there awaiting the right environment or demographics to pop up.

Banjo,

Your last sentence is the key to the survival of liberal democracy,we must maintain the institutions of the secular state and demonstrate that liberties can't be surrendered inch by inch in the name of "multiculturalism". I can't think of any majority Islamic country that's democratic,some Moslem immigrants cannot accept that, in Australia, theirs is just another religion among many. With time,given the influence of democratic societies Islam will be "modernised".