Ive have a "next generation" younger family member whom Ive gotten close too in recent years and I thought I knew him pretty well until the other day when I happened to ask him... "If they called you up, would you fight for Australia?"

His answer was a totally unexpected..."No way, Id rather go to gaol".

"Wow... where did that come from?" I thought.

As one of the baby boomers generation I grew up being taught by our school teachers that it was a good and noble thing to fight for your country in time of war. Many of them had fought and had done well and many had earned medals and ribbons for their efforts.

Is my younger family members' attitude typical of his generation?
He's now 29 years old.

Perhaps the way we were taught...is not the way of modern youth?
Is todays generation over-comforted?
Id be interested to know what folks thought about serving Australia.

Thats serving Australia by-the-way...not Kevin Rudd or any other politician.

Gibo I truly think few would say no.
You can not blame the young for being young.
They are different than us and that is not a bad thing.
Some wars never needed to be fought ,if we had not lost so many good people in world war one so the Royal family could settle a private dispute we would be a better country for it.
If you had the chance to go back to that war knowing you would be lead by an upper class twit who knew nothing, who sat in a headquarters safe house while sending you to die for no gain would you?
Yes I would fight for my country if it wanted me too.
But not without knowing why.
No offense meant mate but not God nor King but country yes I would fight .

Belly... I think your sentiments would be echo'ed by most of us.

We want to know 'why'.....

We don't want to be some dip stick's canon fodder.

We don't want to be in a war of 'aggression'...

Unfortunately the line between "pre-emptive strike based on good intelligence and bitter experience" and "territorial aggression" is not so clear sometimes.

Even if it is clear to our side, it would always be characterized as "Imperialist Agression and Capitalist hegemony/Christian Crusade" depending on who the other party happened to be.

Perhaps we need to draw a line which is clearly spelt out to our neighbours who can then interpret our actions in terms of that line.

If it is crossed... we act... until then.. we do nothing.
All in a defensive framework of course.

I liked the "upper class twit" thing Belly:)

WW1 seemed to be a lot like that.

"The whistle blows and up climb the soldiers out of the trenches and straight into the machineguns...line by line they march forward and face the machineguns and fall in the thousands".
Much likewise does seem to have been squabbling in the Royal households.

Polycarp
I dont think too many Australian soldiers will be going overseas for any more wars of aggression.

We cant afford to put them out with such a vast land to protect.

The "signs of the times" show that we are going to need our men and women here.
Personally Im too old to go overseas myself... but not too old to serve if a conflict comes here.
One thing I did glean from Christian prophecy is that both China and Indonesia have plans for Australia.
They hover quielty above us... and wait for the moment.
I expect, yet, to serve my country.
Be a bit of an adventure I reckon.

Gibo,
China does not have to go to war with Australia as they will soon own us as their economy buys all our resources and supplies all our needs. Indonesia might be another matter as they are prone to jealousy and power.

An interesting perspective, Philo.

>>Indonesia might be another matter as they are prone to jealousy and power.<<

What might be your evidence for this?

Indonesia was colonized by the Dutch in the seventeenth century.

It was occupied by the Japanese from 1942 to 1945.

The country became independent from the Dutch in 1949..

Indonesia is a parliamentary democracy, with an elected president.

From what, exactly, do you deduce that the country is "prone to jealousy and power"?

True about China Philo.
They could easily own us without invasion.

All Im going on is what the Holy Bible says about THE KINGS OF THE EAST... and...
the great mysterious arms build-up China has going.

China has no direct threat from anyone.
Russia and China I believe are quiet friends. So Russia is no real threat.
America has no plans to attack China...never will have without provocation first.
And China knows this.
So what are they doing building such a vast army?
All thats left is to believe that China has a plan for an outward march.

Pericles.
I think Philo is right about a jealous Indonesia.
The reason I can talk about Islam is because Ive been to the lectures and seen the DVDs.
I know the global plan and the many lies and deceptions in regards to Australia.

Theres a myth put around by Islamic leaders here in this country to stir up dissent amongst young muslims that once upon a time the Islamics from the north settled in Australia and live harmoniously with the Aborigines.
When the first fleet came out the anglos slaughtered the Islamics and drove the remnant out and began the persecution of the indigenous folks. This myth is "worked", I believe, from both here and Indonesia.

It has been seen (and photographed) that there were maps on Indonesian classrooms walls... that Australia is a place called SOUTH IRIAN and belongs to Islam.
The greater "SOUTH IRIAN dream" also encompasses New Zealand...and is the root of the jealousy and the bitterness.
They believe they rightfully own OZ and NZ.

"It has been seen (and photographed) that there were maps on Indonesian classrooms walls... that Australia is a place called SOUTH IRIAN and belongs to Islam.
The greater "SOUTH IRIAN dream" also encompasses New Zealand...and is the root of the jealousy and the bitterness.
They believe they rightfully own OZ and NZ." - Gibo

Gibo, I have heard this before, and it wasn't from you. I want to know if this is true or just another urban myth. I am interested to know if you know any web sites I can look up to verify this. I can read Indonesian to a certain degree.

Its a fairly simple question.

My age would now qualify me for the home guard more than the front line but back in 1982 the question was the same in UK when going to war against the Argentineans, would I fight for UK if needed

Its a simple answer

Yes

One has a choice to live as free people or not.

The democratic processes by which we live our lives is a system superior to those who might seek to invade us and is thus, worth fighting for.

To all those who feel differently I can only observe,

whilst I might die once, in defense of the country of my choosing, the coward dies many times.
.

as to Bellys comment “If you had the chance to go back to that war knowing you would be lead by an upper class twit who knew nothing,”

that is one of the things which has changed in the intervening century.

The preeminence or the “upper class twit” (and not to forget the “chinless wonder”) has gone. The rigid social structures, which enshrined social class and inbreeding, have been largely discarded.

Military commissions are earned these days, they are not bought, as was the case in Queen Victoria’s time.

Steel Mann.
I havent got much on SOUTH IRIAN other than a copy of a map re-produced in a mazazine called Exposure (Vol 3 No 6. 1997) which shows the Indonesian government seal on a map of Australia and all of the land north of Townsville QLD marked in black and named SOUTH IRIAN.
The magazine reports that the map is a copy of maps shown on the walls of the 136,000 primary schools in Indonesia. I presume that the original maps had the seal on them as well. Quote, "all territory above the 20%S latitude on our continent (Australia) they claim as theirs".
If you click on SOUTH IRIAN you can also find something from the Australian League of Rights...but Im not supporting them because they are anti-semetic.
Another story my Pastor told me was that there had been a Aussie school teacher (my Pastors friend) who was on a tour of Indonesian classrooms some years ago when he saw the map on the walls. Apparantly he got one of the first photos of the map by positioning the class teacher and the children in the class, in such a position as to photo the map as well as the people in the class. On his return to Australia the teacher reported this map to ASIO and ASIO apparently sent around 2 agents and confiscated the teachers film.

The rest of the Pastors story goes that a younger Alexander Downer had directed the agents in this recovery of the film...so as not to have the general public know about the maps.
"We mustnt panic the people...must we?
Fred Niles group the Australian Christian Democrats puts on the Islamic lectures from time to time. You could contact them if you want to know more about the great global takeover plan Islam has. One top DVD on the takeover is called Obessionthemovie.

Thanks Col.
Youre right about times changing, though I wonder if (outside of the war context) we might have lost something in losing the "upper class twit".
He would have put a smile on many a simpler, poorer mans face.

Col and Gibo, even now the upper class twit is not totally gone.
But most of my memory's come from England in Australia, my parents and grand parents home Bowral.
In the 1950s, you just had to hold your hat over your heart as you spoke to the boss, not me my parents.
Not far north in a town that produced and Australian treasurer Yerinbool you could not even look at some who sounded a lot like price Charles in the 1960,s.
The ,the twits and no chins would mostly be among those who would not fight for this country.
The story about south Iran is true.
Alexander Downer may well have done that my mob the ALP covered up the murders of our Medea men.
But remember Indonesia was lead then by other men other ideas we must not jump at yesterdays shadows.

I'm not hearing anything about the sexism of the draft and how women are discriminated against. I think many would not go unless women were drafted and sent to the front line, which is more than fair and extremely reasonable.

Where are the feminists to instate equality into the ultimate sacrifice for their country?

Belly "you just had to hold your hat over your heart as you spoke to the boss, not me my parents."

and 50 years earlier in UK a worker went to the same chapel meetings as the foreman on Sunday or felt he might not have a job Monday.

It's the same thing Belly and thankfully we do live in different times.

People who feel entitled to look down on other folk because of the plum in their mouth or the school they went to are around all the time but

they are a dying breed and good riddance.

My response to any of them is to look them in the eye, peer to peer, regardless of "breeding" or double-barrelled surname.

look on the bright side, if you have a mate who is a chinless wonder, his overbite comes in useful if you do not have a can-opener handy

Is that the same "Exposure" magazine that concerns itself with finding Lost Arks of the Covenant, Egyptian Hieroglyphs found on the Central NSW coast and the occasional UFO sighting?

The same one that accused Pope John Paul II of selling cyanide gas to the Nazis?

That New Age Occultist magazine run by one-time One Nation candidate (later disendorsed) Paul Summers from Noosa Heads?

Wasn't he somehow involved with Tony Pitt's Confederate Action Party which associated itself with the League of Rights, Australians Against Further Immigration, the AUSI Freedom Scouts, the Libyan backed and funded Australian Peoples’ Conference, the Citizens’ Electoral Councils, and the Queensland Immigration Control Association (a division of the National Front of Australia) and the neo-Nazi group National Action?

Just checking your sources for accuracy and impartiality.

The Forum question should be "are you willing to send your sons to die for -
1. a political cause,
2. a religious belief or
3. to help the bottom-line of some transnational Corporation?"

Remember that the lines between these choices can be very fuzzy indeed.

Oops,

I should have named DAVID Summers.

My apologies to all those named Paul Summers out there.

Wobbles says >> "The Forum question should be "are you willing to send your sons to die for -
1. a political cause,
2. a religious belief or
3. to help the bottom-line of some transnational Corporation?"

Well wobbles if they are the only three choices I would like you to explain how WW1, WW2, The Korean War and our intervention in East Timor fit into your NEAT little list.

Please explain why, when you decide one of these three pathetic attempts to understand the TOTALITY of modern conflict completely explains our involvent in the aforementioned wars.

In regard to Gibos actual question, I think its highly prudent to ensure we are embarking on a course of action that can be justified by recourse to the higher principles we, as Australians, generally believe in. That is, that we have exhausted all other possibilities, (besides appeasement) and that our cause is just, and our motives are pure.

An attack on this country is different. If you are called, you go. Indeed I would personally be volunteering.

Paul.L.
I think you'll find that the true basis for most wars has been over the simple desire for additional territory or resources. They may be marketed as something else but that's the real reason. From Genghis Khan to the Roman Empire and the Crusades and Pax Americana - it's always been the same. Profit.

The reasons armies and laws exist are to maintain and protect the interests of the influential and powerful, not as a way to win a philosophical argument.

Anybody who thinks that the war in Iraq for example, is only about a sudden altruistic urge to spread democracy by one side (considering they've done everything to prevent it up till now) and a desire to forcibly convert others to Islam by the other (equally unlikely) is deluding themselves.

Both sides are simply laying claim to the same resources but neither is going to recruit entire armies on that basis alone are they? Who would willingly die for a commercial sponsor? Would anybody declare war on Finland for example, just to make them lower the drinking age because they personally think it's unfair to Finnish youth?

It's always dressed up as good vs evil - never anything else - because nothing else would work.

Germany and Japan (and Korea) were after territory and resources, East Timor was particularly important to all players because of the gas fields. Do you think those invaders just wanted to convert other countries to their political systems, improve their way of life and then pack up and go home afterwards believing in a job well done? No, they were there for the long haul.

Of course, a military attack on Australia from any country requires a response and I would also go in such circumstances, but economic takeovers apparently don't seem to be so much of a problem these days if they don't threaten our way of life.

Gday PaulL how ya going bloke?
Read your last post.
Agreed with some of it.
Are you eating plumbs at the time you wrote it mate?

professional soldiers fight for their paymaster. they're at work in afghanistan now. they will continue to do as they are told by politicians, as long as there is a reasonable chance they will live to spend their pay.

this has nothing to do with defense of the nation. it is merely political maneuvering for the benefit of pollies.

defense of the nation is a different thing entirely. it is best done by citizens in arms, in a national militia. they should fight on the beaches of australia. in these conditions, it will be clear to all that fighting is not being done for political advantage, but for survival against aggression.

oz can probably equip and train 5 million adults to fire an rpg or ak-47 effectively. if the government provided this training, no one would step ashore without invitation. the government will not, because a national militia is the base for democracy, more feared by politicians than any foreign enemy.

DEMOS “defense of the nation is a different thing entirely. it is best done by citizens in arms,”

I can see it now,

mothers with babies in prams, covered in camouflage netting setting up mortar barrages with the rounds carried among the feeding bottles.
Older citizens maneuvering using their walking frames to jam the tracks of enemy tanks

Whilst I said previously I have no reservations to defending the country who I chose and which chose me,

somehow, I think my best efforts are not up to those of a professional volunteer army.

As for “oz can probably equip and train 5 million adults to fire an rpg or ak-47 effectively.”

I know, I have fired an M16 but it don’t mean I am safe doing so.

“because a national militia is the base for democracy, more feared by politicians than any foreign enemy.”

And who “controls” this “militia”… I recall some nasty incidences in South America with renegade (so called) militia

Gibo,

I've done some searches. I looked at the Australian League of Rights website. Not much info there, but my search came up with something interesting:

http://www.greenleft.org.au/1991/16/1144

I do not generally read the Green Left Weekly and I don't support their cause, but nevertheless some of their material is good reading.

This was another result:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=XiPAMuTaQFEC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=%22south+irian%22&source=web&ots=Ba2ZsA28Zm&sig=az9HuB-d3EWh1FaQMi8Ql1crIjk&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result#PPA29,M1

I didn't have time to read all this, but given your interest in this matter, you've probably already read these.

There are numerous sources that state this idea but none of them can show a copy of the map. I really would be interested if anybody can find reference to this map that Gibo speaks about. I want to see a reproduction so I can confirm this as fact. No matter how well intentioned a person can be, it's a fact that 30% of what we say is lost when the information is given to another person.

I've tried doing searches for Indonesian sites using the Indonesian "Irian Selatan" (South Irian). My knowledge of Indonesian is limited and I need to have a dictonary with me to translate a lot of words but there might be some info there. No pictures yet though.

Wobbles,

I see you are backtracking rapidly. I asked you to chose from your comprehensive list, the reason why we were involved in ww1, ww2, Korea and East Timor.

You say >> “I think you'll find that the true basis for most wars has … always been the same. Profit.”

Really? Nato involvement in Kosovo and Bosnia? For profit? The US intervention in Somalia? Profit too?

You say >> “Germany and Japan (and Korea) were after territory and resources”

Are you trying to suggest that we were after territory and resources as well, in all these conflicts? Or are you entirely IGNORING our motives for involvement in these conflicts because it doesn’t fit your preconceived ideas.

You say >> “The reasons armies and laws exist are to maintain and protect the interests of the influential and powerful, not as a way to win a philosophical argument.”

I see. That’s why there are different laws for rich people, than for the rest of us. Doh!
We have the rule of law in this country, everyone abides by the same laws. Laws exist because humans cannot be relied upon to do the right thing.

Armies exist to defend the interests of the nation. Unfortunately it is an unavoidable fact that countries resort to war for many reasons. The lack of a defence force would just make it more likely that our enemies would resort to violence, because it would be profitable to do so. Ask the British people who lived through the WW2 Blitz whether they felt that the RAAF was defending them or just the fat cats?

Demos,’

you say >> “professional soldiers fight for their paymaster. … they will continue to do as they are told by politicians, as long as there is a reasonable chance they will live to spend their pay.”

This is obscene nonsense. Not only is it FLAT OUT WRONG. It is also highly OFFENSIVE to the men and women of the ADF, some of whom have already given their lives in service to their country. You are not even worthy to comment upon their sacrifice.

Wobbles.

I dont really know about "Exposure" magazine.

I was just given the map from Exposure showing the northern part of Australia marked as SOUTH IRIAN, by a christian friend.

My confirmation of the Indonesian classroom maps of Australia, so marked as SOUTH IRIAN, lies with one of my Pastors who told the story from the pulpit one night at an Islamic discussion evening not too long after the Cronulla riot, of a christian friend taking a photo of such a map in an Indonesian classroom... then having it plucked away by ASIO, who wanted the whole story kept from the general public.
I read somewhere else(forgotten where) that an Islamic takeover of New Zealand is also part of the future plan.

"you say >> “professional soldiers fight for their paymaster. … they will continue to do as they are told by politicians, as long as there is a reasonable chance they will live to spend their pay.”

This is obscene nonsense. Not only is it FLAT OUT WRONG. It is also highly OFFENSIVE to the men and women of the ADF, some of whom have already given their lives in service to their country. You are not even worthy to comment upon their sacrifice."

Paul.l, I rarely agree with DEMOS, but he sums it up pretty neatly. This is not to detract from the dedication of our servicemen and women. But think the comment through rather than get upset straight out. If there is a reasonable chance that they will live to spend their pay, then there is also a chance that they will die. I put it to you that we would have a much harder job at getting the ADF numbers we currently have if the death rate in Iraq was closer to that of the US, or even higher. Its basic self-preservation. To further add weight to DEMOS's argument - individual members of the ADF dont pick their battles, they do as their told. The theatres in which they serve are chosen by politicians, mostly for political gain, not in defence of Australia (at last not at the moment). Again, I dont detract from their courage and dedication, but its a simple fact that at the moment they are fighting for a political cause, and not for their country (as I dont define a country by its politicians).

Paul.L.
I thought we automatically entered both WW1 and WW2 because of our colonial obligation with Britain - not for some high moral purpose, just as the USA got involved only after they were attacked.

Kosovo and Somalia were both internal and border conflicts (over territory?) and the UN/NATO involvements were humanitarian reponses in both cases.

Not so for the other conflicts in Rwanda, Croatia, Sierra Leone, Algeria, Abkhazia, Tajikistan, Burundi, Nepal, Zaire, Albania, Congo, Liberia (and many more) between 1990 and 1999 alone – which, despite extensive loss of life – seemed not to qualify for a significant humanitarian armed response. There must be plenty of places out there today that are still crying out for liberation so who do we save next?

I think articles like “War is a racket” by Major General Smedley Butler - hardly an armchair warrior – have much to say.

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html

Gibo,
Given the association of the Confederate Action Party in the Cronulla incident and it's aftermath, I would suspect the authenticity of such a map. The notion of an Indonesian invasion has always been high on their agenda.
http://www.greenleft.org.au/1997/300/15335

Country Gal,

A few points.

You say >> ... we would have a much harder job at getting the ADF numbers we currently have if the death rate in Iraq was ... higher

First, Demos wasn’t talking about recruitment, or the difficulties therein. He said “professional soldiers fight for their paymaster. … they will continue to do as they are told by politicians, as long as there is a reasonable chance they will live to spend their pay.”

There is NO MENTION of recruiting there. He is suggesting that serving members of the defense force will only fight when they know there is a reasonable chance they will survive. That simply is not true.

Furthermore, America’s defence force has had VERY FEW problems with service people not wanting to fight, even though there are far higher casualty rates and very little break between tours.

You say >> “individual members of the ADF don’t pick their battles, they do as their told”

Soldiers have never been able to choose who and when they fight, that has always been up to politicians. For good reason, the army does not decide when and where it goes, it is the servant of the people, and as such is answerable to parliament.

You say>> “ Its basic self-preservation”

Bullsh!t. Have you read any of the citations for Gallantry issued in Afghanistan or Iraq to Australian forces. http://www.defence.gov.au/media/DepartmentalTpl.cfm?CurrentId=6168

Clearly many people do NOT feel the way you do on this matter and I wonder where you get the presumption to speak upon their behalf. Just because a cowardly civilian’s first duty is to their own self-preservation, don’t assume that servicemen and woman also abide by this narrow self interest.

You say >> “The theatres in which they serve are chosen by politicians, mostly for political gain,”

National security issues; that is issues which affect the defence of Australia and Australians, are not limited to defence of the mainland. Our defence in the modern world must occasionally be served by fighting for principles we believe in, in foreign lands.

Wobbles.

The map I have is what appears to be a reproduction of the earlier map actually photographed on Indonesian classroom walls.

The name SOUTH IRIAN is clearly in English when, if it was the original photo map, it would be in Indonesian.

The Confederate Action Party I thought was defunct?
They rang me up some years ago when in rural QLD and wanted me to write for them.
I wouldnt do it because I write for the Jesus I know.
I also found out they had a link with the League of Rights which is anti-jewish.
Personally I think the reproduction I have from Exposure is a genuine attempt to tell a genuine story.
I also cant get around what my Pastor said.
The man is a man of God and always tells the truth.
If he says he has a friend who photo'd such a map on Indonesian classroom walls Ive got to go with him.
Seems rather careless of the Indonesians to have such maps in their classroom walls considering that occasionally Aussie school teachers do go to Indonesians schools.

They are either dumb...or overly confident of the success of their future plans for Australia?
I think Islams' thinking does generally runs to, "One day we will go down into Australia...and take the lot of them".

Steel Mann.
Thanks for that Greenleft article. I will look at it later.

I hate this situation with the map(s).

Certain people it seems to me spent a lot of time trying to keep the news of the Indonesian classroom map from joe and jane public.
I can see some of the reasoning.
Indonesia is a stones throw from Darwin and they wouldnt want to overly upset Darwin-ians. They would get hit first.

I think the great, big reason for not telling Australians relates to the fact that Australias defences are so tragically pathetic and it would take a hundred billion dollars or more to make it right.
Theres not a gun in the country now hardly. I dont mind the private guns all gone but there has to be a build-up in Defence arsenals for the citzs. To date...theres been none.

I was just looking at the reproduction of the map but I wouldnt know how to get it to you.

Oh, deary me, how much I would love to see photo's of the maps that were reported hanging on Chinese classroom walls back in the 1980's... when observed by travellers to China....that refered to Australia as NEW SOUTH CHINA and NEW CHINA.

One photo would change the hearts of all Australians over to "fortress Australia" preparations.

Australia would get it citizens home guard defence force overnite ...if only the public knew what China wants with The Great South Land Of The Holy Spirit.

...more proof of Indonesian plans for Australia.

It comes from Fair Dinkum Ministry back issue #43 (smaller articles)

http://www.cforu.net/files/dinkum/dink43s.php

quote..."Australia is ripe for invasion.
(Sunday Mail, 24/11/96). Indonesia has a standing army 493,000 strong. Australias armed forces are just 63,000. Indonesia is responsible for the deaths in East Timor alone of 500,000 men, women and children. They lay claim to all Australian territory above the 20 Degree latitude line (ie, the line below Townsville and Tennant Creek). Their maps describe this land as "SOUTH IRIAN". An Indonesian military camp is reportedly located in Australia's Northern Territory. (ACA, Surry Hills, NSW)"...unquote.

*About the Indonesian military camp, mentioned in the Fair Dinkum article, I remember an army friend saying a few years ago that sometime ago an Australian Army patrol came across a small camourflaged mountain of weapons and ammunition in behind the high tide mark, up in the sandhills, of one of our Northern Terriory beaches which they couldnt explain other than to believe that it was a pile landed as a prelude to an invasion. Thankfully no invasion occured. What the army did with the pile isnt known. Some strange things happen in the Northern part of Australia, from time to time.

Gibo

I think I can put your mind at rest about the Chinese maps at least.

You have to remember that back in the 80's (and even today in any but an International school which are few and far between) no traveller to China would have seen a map printed in English.

The characters signifying "South OF China" and "South China" would be exactly the same. So all your visitors would have seen would have been an orientation map showing that Australia is to the south of China.

Believe me, the average Chinese schoolkid has no idea where, in relation to China, Australia even is. And all but the most educated adults would still have a hard job locating it.

Paul, the point is not necessarily that recruitment is the only indicator of poor surival rate, but that its probably the first. In case you didnt notice, I do pay tribute to the courage of our troops past and present. The simple fact remains that when you are talking career soldiers (navy etc), there is a point beyond which people are not willing to risk their life for money. I believe its different if our home is under attack. Almost all of the wars or conflicts that we have been involved in have been political moves to keep a higher ally happy. It seems we disagree, but I dont consider this to be fighting in defence of Australia. At the end of the day almost all of us including defence force personnel, are all about making a living for ourselves. Some of us take on more dangerous or noble jobs than others, but they are still jobs.

Romany.
The first story I heard some years ago about the name NEW SOUTH CHINA came from an article in a christian magazine from a Christian missionary who was in China and had visited Chinese classrooms.
For him to be there in China, preaching the Gospel to the people, he would have had to have known Chinese.

The second mention of the re-naming of Australia came from The Epoch Times, Sydney (November 1-7, 2006) from a writer who responded to an earlier inquiry of mine about the name NEW SOUTH CHINA who said in response...quote, "In reply to Gibsons query I heard from a traveller in 1985 that maps of the world in Mainland Chinese schools had Australia named as NEW CHINA"...unquote.
So I have two mentions of the renaming of Australia...yet sadly no photo of such maps.
Maybe Im gullible but I always believe Christian missionaries and pastors and I dont mind anecdotal evidence.

I also dont doubt that the Chinese would teach their children the global takeover plan.
They dont build those already huge armies for nothing, and many children would be expected by Chinese leadership to enter military service...so why not a proud boast to encourage them that they are the superior race?

Steel Mann
You said you were having trouble locating a copy of Jack Burrells "WHAT WILL BECOME OF AUSTRALIA" 1975.

Theres part of the revelation over on

http://propheticroundtable.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view7id=63&Itemid...

Its quite remarkable and its beginning to happen.

If you cant find it there...type in Australian Prophetic Round Table- What will become of Australia

Gibo,

I've seen you mention this China thing often and I guess what I want to know is: does it really WORRY you? I have no wish to engage with you about your religious beliefs, so if this is all part and parcel of those then I don't want to seem to be trying to change your ideas.

But if you actually find it disturbing then please take comfort in this:

as you know, I live and teach in China so...

a) I have researched pretty thoroughly from here and find absolutely no basis for the "map" story. As I said (and any pastor who can read Chinese will tell you) its a horribly complicated language so probably the Westerners you mentioned got the Chinese characters mixed up somewhat.

b) China doesn't have a big Army. Well, in relation to Australia it does, but as a percentage of its population it's certainly not big.To-day's kids are just not interested in joining.

c) The American Army spends more in one year than China has in the past 10 years on training, weapons etc.

d) There are no civillian or volunteer agencies such as Search and Rescue, etc. in China - so that is the Armies main occupation.

e) While Australia may be all-important to us, the average Chinese hardly knows a thing about it

f) The parents of to-days kids are too interested in getting them through Uni and into business even to dream of sending them to fight instead

d)Only last week there were articles saying how modern youth just don't take the military seriously, and

e) as I'm sure you are aware, politics interest most youngsters less even than the Army... and very few Chinese to-day even bother to join the Communist party.

You said you accept anecdotal evidence - so does that put your mind at rest just a little? If China indeed does take over the world one day it will be economically, I should imagine, not militarily. But with the current economic climate even that isn't very likely.

Romany.
Sure the China thing worries me.
Mainly because Australian people are ignorant of Chinas intentions.

I have no bone with the ordinary folks (love to see more become born again christians though).

For a few years now Ive been pretty well up on Chinas military growth so I generally know what shes up too.
She steals many of Americas nuclear weapons secrets.
She tries to buy out the technology at Metal Storm (will steal it if she gets a chance).
She will be trying to steal the Fusionmans wing soon.
Shes got over 1,000 spies out here in OZ (God bless you Chen Yonglin for saying what you said) and theyre not out here for anything other than what theyre really out here for...gathering info and photographing us and what we have militarily.

My knowledge is also supported by what the Holy Bible says about the group of asian nations called THE KINGS OF THE EAST.
China is going to be the head nation when the great outward march begins.

Ive also seen many Christian prophecies about China and I believe them all.

I know her aggression.
Ive seen what she did in Tiananmen Square. Neither was it pretty nor was the denial that went on for years afterwards.
Shes still in denial.
Ive seen what shes been doing in Tibet.
I know what she does to Falun Gong. I know what she does to her Christians.
I guess a "teachers-world-in-China" doesnt allow for much time to reflect on all of this?
Im sticking with the stories of the maps of Australia in Chinese classrooms that refer to OZ as NEW SOUTH CHINA.

You sure you havent been there too long?

The Chinese government has many internet operators pushing pro-Chinese government propaganda...much of it abuse of human rights denial stuff.

I've seen photos of what was supposed to be UFOs, ghosts and Bigfoot but that's not enough to prove they exist.

Seems to me that some people have a notion about something and sometimes try to find physical things to justify their personal prejudices or paranoia, whether they are second-hand accounts of sinister maps or images of the Virgin Mary on grilled cheese sandwiches.

Gibo,

That link doesn't work. I will be interested to see this though. I'm not saying that I believe in all these prophesies, but they are something worth knowing about, and I won't discount them as rubbish.

What you have said about Indonesia is very interesting, especially after I found that article on the Green Left website. The interesting thing is that Green Left is a Socialist, almost Anarchist organisation, but this story review was very similar to the prophecies you speak of.

As I've said before, 1975 was a time of real fear in Australia of Communist takeover. I was only a child then, but I can remember the fear that many had of Australia being invaded. The threat was real then. One of the things with end time prophecy is that circumstances change all the time, and ideas have to be reviewed. For example you say the mark of the beast is a microchip, In the 1980's it was considered to be a bar code tattoo, either invisible or visible. It may in fact be something else that hasn't yet been invented.

I'm not the sort of person who believes things just because a Christian told me so. Unfortuneatly some leading Christians have been known to be dishonest eg Mike Warnke.

Gibo, steel Mann and others I was around for 1975.
My memory is focused on a man know as Curr or some spell it Kerr.
I was a young activist but have no memory of fearing Indonesia.
We thought of that country as a threat yes, but then again the yellow peril has filled some with fear for more than a century.
I am a bit surprised some say that map never existed, it may well have the policy behind it did, still does for some.
I sorry Gibo give no credit to those prophecy's, none at all the world is full of them we never hear about the failed ones.
And surely you understand steel Mann is wise to not take every Christian as an honest person?
I feel as many bad eggs come via Christianity as any other thing that has the potential to make money

People with Gibo's condition will seize on whatever's current to fill their delusional schema. If this were 1988, he'd be posting about the prophecies of a Russian apocalypse. If it was 1938, it'd be the Germans (and he'd coincidentally get it nearly right).

Hi Steel mann
Try
http://propheticroundtable.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=63&Itemid...

or click on Australian Prophetic Round Table-What Will Beome of Australia?

Hi Rache
Im sticking with the testimonies of the China maps and the Indonesian maps.

Remember this was the mid-late 1980's in which the China maps were seen and China was still much closed off, though slowly openning up.

After the Tiananmen Square massacre in 1989 the ship tightened up again and much that would have been cleaned up as the world turned to watch what was going on.
The maps showing OZ as NEW SOUTH CHINA would have been collected and dumped for the sake of lesser scrutiny on Chinas plans for an outward march.
No one in China wanted travellers and christian missionaries to remember what they has seen.
I understand everyones concerns about these maps.
No one wants war and no likes to think other nations are plotting invasion.
I believe that the truth has been spoken... and that Ive extended it to all of you.

Steel Mann/Belly.

There have been many christians in positions of power who fell, but I dont believe that we should turn cynical because of the few.

I was amazed when Jimmy Swaggart fell yet it was also encouraging to see him back preaching later on.
I trust those who God puts in positions of leadership...unless He brings them down for some reason.

Its been my experience, over the years, its not the leader of the big church who is always the most committed.
Ive found so often that its the little guy with the little church who does so well with perseverance and godliness.
This might be because he always looking to The Lord for help and not to the wealthy congregation.

This is why, in respect of the christian missionary who reported the NEW SOUTH CHINA maps on Chinese classroom walls, Im very, very inclined to go with his story.
He was a committed man. He would have had to have been, to pick up a call to go to China (more grit than me). I trust his testimony and believe he didnt lie.
Same with the school teacher friend of my Pastor who photographed the SOUTH IRIAN map on that Indonesian classroom wall.
Both good men to report what they saw.

Sancho.
What would be your problem with such stories. Do we always have to see it for ourselves or actually have photos to believe what someone else says he/she saw and heard?

Statistics prove that recruitment to the ADF is way beyond a mere problem.
My googling indicates it is such a problem that were some form of conscription be introduced the youth would rightly tell our Masters to 'just piss off'.

Besides which, my son reminds me that conscript Armies are never any bloody good.

Amazingly, our Masters, the last many years, have provided our youth with their ground rules and that way of thinking.
A problem, that.

Meanwhile it is the same set of Masters that tell Australians who have variously-
sworn the Oath of Allegiance
put their own money into defence projects in industry
and consequently seen them (the defence projects) forfeit to the State -
and been ordered as the originators to just go away and die.

Well, its them who have had enough and incline towards supporting the youth who would not differentiate much between Howard and rudd when it comes to putting their precious pelts and their life on the line.

I have, myself, sworn the Oath of Allegiance and done all those things. I have seen all that wasted to conflicting factions and greed.

Come on. Is it any wonder that I would not ask youth to waste more?

Belly,

My comments about 1975 and the fear of communist invasion were based on the end of the Vietnam war. Many Australians feared the Communists would keep moving further south and eventually invade Austalia.

My people on this forum rubbish Gibo, as I have myself, but that doesn't mean everything he has to say is wrong. I have no opinion on his comments on China, however what he has said about Indonesia is very interesting, as I have heard this information from other sources, and it was not connected with my church. About 10 years ago at the height of the Pauline Hanson debate, a freind of mine mentioned (not a Christian or any way connected with my church) that Indonesian maps in schools featured the North-West of Australia as being their territory. I don't know where they got their information from. If a freind of mine who I trusted had actually seen this map first hand I would believe the story, but I am investigating this to see if it is really true or just another urban myth.

Gibo, there are many Pastors out there that I don't agree with, however one of my former Pastors once told me, eat the meat, but leave the bones. Mike Warnke's claims of being a Satanic High Priest that found Christ were false, and he has now admited to this. I don't think the Occult is something Christians should play games with (I'm sure you will agree). I was saddened at Jimmy Swaggart's fall in 1988, and was glad to see that when he made a come back he had become more humble in his ways. God's grace extends to them the same way it applies to us.

"My people on this forum rubbish Gibo" - should have read Many people on this forum rubbish Gibo. It would be a good idea if we could edit our own posts after they've been submitted.

Interesting comments A Non Farmer.

You know...I really think that in the end, all of this is going to come down to the gun clubbers and friends.

I dont mean to be rude or offensive but when I think Defence/federal governments... I think uncommitted/lazy/ignorant Defence/federal governments.

With such a huge threat from the north, all we do is buy big military equipment and leave nothing for a citizens militia.
*Nothing is known, anywhere, even from military personnel, of what might have been stored away for a citzs home guard defence force... so theres is nothing stored away.

There are no plans anywhere to use the citzs (Brendan Nelson told me this last year and K.Rudd has nothing going I believe). Its amazing that the Americans havent complained.
How would their secret bases fare if a major incursion happened? Security guards looking after them.

Hello Gibo,
Your "gunclubbers and friends" were allegedly what concerned the Japanese when the wanted us to be part of the "South-East Asia co-Prosperity Sphere" back in the early 1940s.

A combination of distance, no forage to be found, and in their view, husbands AND wives that not only knew how to load and fire readily available firearms, but in the Japanese assessment, also had the skill-at-arms to set sights and fire effectively and without haste.
Believe you know what I mean?
I'm assuming you understand "Oath of Allegiance" - with relation to a citizen's personal commitment to the defence of this piece of geography - rather than, say, Kevin's or Joel's pelt?

No way anyone can be "rude/offensive when they speak truth".

Perspective. - J.Fitz was an auto electrician until he won a raffle.
Winning the raffle has him as Defence Minister now.

And I'm supposed to be impressed?
Does winning raffles impart GODHEAD - or just provide profits?
Well, according to the ABC and a few others positioned to take a rake themselves - that situation is not immediately clear.

Your paragraph 3 - Unfortunately other than Defence Programs as are in-situ, there is probably little stored away to the north and north-west enabling citizens to be part of the defence of Australia if the cack did hit the fan.
On the other hand I would quietly suggest some bipartisan effort has been expended making allowance for the worst case scenario.
I would add that some 'real Australians' might be involved with the planning whose security status might well be higher than mine.

Putting it bluntly, some Australians have a family tree going back past 1788.
They may not like what is happening in Oz too much. But like the rest of us, they've signed up for the long haul.
I'm speaking about a lot of very capable people in NorForce.
Let's leave some of the feedback to them.
The result might surprise us.

Thanks A Non Farmer.
I believe what you wrote about the Japanese fearing the skills we had during WW2 is correct. I often heard stories as a young teenager of how the number of "citizen guns" also more than likely kept them away.

That changed with the disarming of the citizens during the Howard period (I dont think we should have the guns with the citzs but I do think there needs to be an increase in citz guns in Defence arsenals ready to be handed out).

The distance for supply lines for an enemy is quite vast as well.
An army friend say if China came down one day, to claim Australia as their NEW SOUTH CHINA/NEW CHINA, one of the big problems would be their supply lines over such a distance.
Thats goes in our favour in time of war.
The things that dont go in our favour are the lack of preparation today (2008) for a sudden change in the world military climate.

We simply cant leave the people massed in major cities, untrained and with no equipment for too many more years.
Anyway I took my concerns to America a number of times. Maybe they can bring pressure into the citz army thing. They have heaps to lose if Australia falls one day.
Im not too sure who owns OZ in 2008, us or them. Their secret bases in Australia are vital to their future survival and they wont want them over-run.
The problem here is we are so apathetic to everything.
Indonesia and China both drool over our easy going ways.

Thanks folks. I dont know that all that much more is going to be said on this thread.
Belly.
It was good to see your support with your knowledge of the SOUTH IRIAN maps. Many will deny it existed but not believers in truth. Those maps was there.

Steel Mann.
It was good to get that reference to the book BELOW THE LINE by Eric Wilmott.
On one site I saw they had a photo of the book cover and it did indeed have a map drawn on it with all of the land above Townsville marked as THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH IRIAN, showing that Eric Wilmott also had knowledge of earlier maps on Indonesian classroom walls calling OZ that exact name.

Its a pity I didnt get many people especially young folk saying what they thought of serving Australia.

Defence, if they have any wisdom, will have to work on the youth of Australia real soon, if they want to do proper defence.
They might start by getting rid of the bastardisation the young ones will experience at boot camps.
THERES NO NEED FOR IT.

Gibo,

Good topic, as I served in the army in a previous life, I would volunteer to defend Australia. I believe there are 2 cases one should volunteer to fight: 1) where a clear and present danger is eminent on Australian soil. 2) Where a limited surgical intervention on foreign soil is a must to preempt a danger to Australia (within intl laws). I can't think of any other scenario that I would support or volunteer for.

Peace,

On topic re youth, seems there is a trend with youth in their twenties to talk / negotiate any conflict without resorting to wars. It sounds a bit rosy at times but it is still better than the opposite view.

I don't think its restricted to Australian youth. Young people today tend to have internet friends and are well travelled. It makes them believe that all people have the same needs and the world is getting too small to consider wars. If you look at youth in the EU (French/German/British) today they jointly engage in environmental and social activities and many even inter-marry. 50 years ago they were all taught to hate each other.

You sure paint an interesting picture Fellow_Human of todays youth.

Its been a long time since war touched Australia or when a large number of OZ soldiers went overseas... and people do tend to forget.
I guess youth can get detached from the way the world has been, if conflicts are few and far between...not that that is bad, the few and far between.

War cycles around (The Holy Bible actually says/Ecclesiastes 3:8/ that "there is a season, a time, for peace and a season, a time, for war) and we have to be ready.

Im really glad we have people like Steven Spielberg, a man from my own generation, who have the knowledge that there are going to be wars and who keep that knowledge alive with films like Schindlers List, Band of Brothers, Saving Private Ryan.
If the knowledge of all of the good efforts to save democracy and Christianity in times of war is lost we go to sleep and enemies can sneak up without warning.
I hope Ive shown here, in this thread, that both China and Indonesia have had plans to sneak up on Australia.
I dont think those plans have ever been shelved.

Hey, Gibo and Fellow_Human
Isn't it great that we can discuss matters without getting wired up like happens on other 'channels'.
Before I start - those maps mentioned in the thread were frequently published a few years back in the newsletters during Pauline H's time. I've seen nothing confirming they were, say, TNI issue, or proving their provenance.

Skill at Arms. It usually takes months and a fair expense in ammo to train a marksman. That has to be followed with constant practice. It costs money the ADF pretends it cannot afford and 'simulators' are being progressively adopted to replace most live-fire practice.
Back in the old days idiots like me used to pay good money to maintain skills.

My view is that the future OzSoldier will become so disorientated in a firefight that he won't be able to return effective fire and go completely to pieces if he sees chips and bits of tissue being blown away from his mate's bodies.(Not nice, but does need to be said)
And before the feminists start - what decent woman would be stupid enough to put herself at such a training/tactical disadvantage either?

"Si vis pacem para bellum", Vegetius - "If you want peace - then prepare for war." Not everyone's cup of tea but a damned sight better if, like me, you are a lover, not a fighter.
However if the urdure DID outrageously hit the propellor, wouldn't even the less aggressive of us want to defend their family and property?
Wouldn't we want to maybe PAY someone to keep the foe away?
Hell yes, and that is what the tax dollar is for.
Could that immense expenditure be reduced?
Undoubtedly - by returning Australian volunteers what is their right.
Get rid of the Howard oppression, remove the States taxation, and return the natural right of citizens to own arms and practice marksmanship in order to maintain that core defence posture.

A NON FARMER.
I believe youre right that those maps would have been printed up during Paulines Hansons time.
They seem to be of interest to many ordinary folk.
Im still going with my Pastors verification of the Indonesian map photo-d by his friend though.
I wouldnt say he was lying. I know him too well.

I must have written to about 4 PMs on the issue of a citizens army and of "no guns in Defence arsenals" for the citizens.
4 PMs and I might have been talking to a wall...4 of them. In the end I went to the US hoping they had some pull. Theres far too many large armies to OZ's north to leave the defence of the people to those who appear incompentant.

Hi Gibo,

You are right regarding lessons of history. My point is I think youth look at wars of the past as an example of what not to do or can be avoidable.

I do agree that war can be a necessity at times but as we are learning its becoming more destructive an costly. Besides, we are learning there is more to be achieved through common dialogue, negotiations, trade relations and diplomacy. You would have to agree that China and Indonesia are our greatest markets and key pillars for our economical growth and prosperity.

Peace,

Youre right entirely Fellow_Human.

As many know the thrust of my discussion on Defence is related to a time in the future when the norm of today no longer applies...and its with this in mind that I write.

This period is known to Christians as the Tribulation (7 years in length/or 3 1/2 years Tribulation and 3 1/2 years Great Tribulation)).
Its a time when theres a New World Order leader (Adolf number 2) loose in Europe and a time when theres great global conflict...i.e. in the latter part, China makes her outward march.

That time approaches.
Christians worldwide, in the millions, are watching the arrival of the Tribulation as the world economy falters and preparations are being made, quielty, to microchip the global population (the mark of the beast 666 is a good site).
This chipping/marking system can be found in Revelation 13:16-18 and 14:9-11.
Its will be the new economy and we are not to take it... Revelation 14:9-11.

Back to Defence...
Understanding the Defence needs of Australia is quite easy.

All we have to do is pick up The Holy Bible and turn to the great asian army called THE KINGS OF THE EAST (also on the net) and "back-plan" from that point.
200 Million soldiers are going to pour out of the Far East and move across asia towards Israel (Revelation 9:16 and 16:12).
Many prophecies and visions to the Christian churches of Australia speak about a "southern movement" down into Australia.
For this we have to plan.
Every revelation Ive come across in 16 years (I collect prophecies) speaks about the sins of the people as to why God would allow an invader.
Australia needs to repent of her sin and engage Christian revival to secure her future.
This...all we committed Christians know as the truth.
Christian revival must happen... to get God on Australias side.

"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil - for, as it happens, I AM the meanest S.O.B. in that valley" is a line borrowed from somewhere that my firstborn son and his peers were proud to impart to anyone silly enough to stand still long enough to listen.

Neither were they all particularly mean though some of them were very good. Good in the sense of being as decent and forthright as our age allows but particularly in doing their best to be professional within the limit of the resources made available to them from an incredibly stingy government.

They were, as some might still be, 'Choccos', Reservists, Militia - as some regulars might put it - a WOFTAM.
This thread is about volunteers - correct. So I salute the Reservists.

What is the reward from a grateful nation for being a 'good reservist', say in the Light Infantry.
A few cloth badges, a little white metal badge modelled on the defective rifle we bought from Austria, and a 'gong', a circular lump of the same white metal grudgingly supplied the 'applicant' after five years service.

What a collosal joke that Australia issues a gleaming 'Combat Ready Badge' that portrays a rifle that is generally replaced by an M16 for any serious OzSoldier in any serious scenario.
Why not just provide a black miniature M16 for the combat ready badge?
Why mention this?
I need to say it for my son. He's dead since 13/12/2004 after getting sick at exercise Croc 99 at Shoalwater.
He was ARes for 12 years until about 2003.

Grateful parents were finally provided his 5 year service medal just after Anzac day, 2008.
Stap me. Its supposed to be a democracy.

Fight for Australia? Maybe.
If Howard/Rudd/Turnbull returned Australia to Australians - then that might be acceptable.

Sorry about your son A NON FARMER. Life has some sad knocks from time to time. Our family numbers likewise have diminished in recent years leaving much unhappiness yet some hope through our relationship with The Lord.

Im flaggergasted regarding stingy governments and how cheaply they hold the lives of Australians.
Money flies off in all directions from budgets... and Defence gets the scraps.
Not that Defence is all that bright anyway?
For years Ive watched the purchase of junk, much second hand from America, and the manufacture of our own failure equipment.
Does Over-the-Horizon radar even work? And thats a billion dollars or more.

To me an invasion is inevitable.

Ive seen too many Prophecies and "Words Of Knowledge" through the laying-on-of-hands; and Visions from the Holy Spirit over the past 25 or more years given to strong Bible-believing Christians who steadfastly recorded what Jesus Christ gave them...pastors and worthy believers... who had a part to play in telling this wayward nation about the consequences of her sin... not to believe in an asian invasion being Allowed by God.

Its coming.
A half wit can see what China is doing.
Shes building to take on the US and then move into the Sth East Asia region.

...and Indonesia...well shes always sniffing away with her plans to make OZ, above Townsville Queensland, Islamic.
Islam will have many agents in OZ helping with that take-over.

Gibo: << A half wit can see what China is doing. >>

Finally Gibo writes something with which I can agree completely.

You dont observe China doing anything unusual CJ?

No mysterious arms build-up?

Perhaps country life has dulled you a bit?

CJ,

Gibo and I don't see eye to eye on many issues, but we mustn't ridicule his comments just because he made them.

I haven't got much interest in what he has to say about China, but I've been very interested in his comments on Indonesia. I've been doing my own investigation into that. I don't believe everything I'm told, but do like to check things out for myself.

I lot of what Gibo says about China may in fact prove to be correct. China now dominates world manufacturing, and I have heard it said that eventually they will be the only ones with the technology, then they can start charging what they like.

Come on, Steel Mann - even you'd have to acknowledge that this "End Times" crap is just rubbish. Gibo's just using it to try and spread fear and loathing of Asians - it's the Yellow Peril in a fundy suit.

Fortunately, just about nobody takes him seriously.

CJ,

Most Christians believe we are living in the "End Times", and they have been saying that for 2000 years. I do believe we are 2000 years closer to the end than what we were 2000 years ago.

As a Christian, (And I am not some loopy religious fanatic), I do not profess to having any idea when Christ will return. What I do know is that I want to be ready. To me, being a Christian is very simple. I believe mankind is by nature sinful, and God has forgiven our sins through his son Jesus dying for us on the cross. Salvation is a free gift offered to us by God, and my acceptance of that makes me a Christian. It's very simple. I don't go around Bible bashing people, and what you've seen me just say is the closest I get to preaching to people.

If I was to say that I've never doubted my faith, I would be lying, I like to mix with people of all religious followings (or none at all) in a harmonious environment.

I see Gibo's claims as possibilities but not necessarily probabilities. There are many possibilities for what may happen in the future. One has to have an open mind.

You seem to have a bitterness problem CJ.

I see you clash with many people.
As a christian I take my troubles to The Lord and He Deals with them.

I wondered if you were trapped in a small rural community (I think I remember you saying you were in a small community?) and couldnt get out and the circumstances there were getting to you?
Take it, whatever it is, to God.
He's Always there.
If you have fear of the future...take it to God.

Steel Mann: << Most Christians believe we are living in the "End Times", and they have been saying that for 2000 years. >>

Er... doesn't that support my argument that the idea is rubbish?

<< I do believe we are 2000 years closer to the end than what we were 2000 years ago. >>

Well, yes - but that's just a mathematical truth. Nothing to do with faith, belief or salvation. We're now three minutes closer to "the end" than when I started writing this post.

No offence meant - but so what?

CJ,

I do not accept the idea that we are living in end times as rubbish. Firstly I think we have to define what "end times" are. It is 10 years 100 years or 1000 years? I do not know.

To say that Christ will never return is just as wrong as saying that he must return within the next 10 years or whatever time period you choose. One must have an open mind on these matters, and as I've said, I approach Gibo's ideas here with an open mind - I neither accept nor reject them. Gibo would probably tell you to read the Bible, and I say the same thing. It won't do you any harm.

Ive generally taken the time of The Holy Spirit coming upon the apostles in the room they met in, on the day of Pentecost, in Acts chapter 2 as being the beginning of the LAST DAYS.

From this event, they went out and preached faith in what Jesus did on the cross...and it was a new era of salvation through Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins from this time on.

The author of Hebrews in Hebrews chapter 1 verse 2 is saying "but in these last days he has spoken to us by His son"...

The last 2,000 or so years is the LAST DAYS.

The ENDTIMES Ive taken as the last seven years of tribulation...starting with the appearance of the Antichrist.
He hasnt appeared yet but the world is looking for a man, one man, to solve its problems and soon he will pop up and step onto the world stage.

We have no defence, so forget it. Economics has everything to do with it, along with land water recourses such as Agriculture and minerals.

The way to fight for Australia is to make sure our government has got it right.

After seeing the comments on the Maylasian thread and the lack of understanding , how a country is first taken over its clear nobody even understands the economic links that lead to wars.

The time to fight is now and certainly not with our hands but our heads.

We need to open our own factories again and stop shipping our raw materials off in their most valuable form.

We need to support ourselves not rely on China or anybody else to feed us.

This country has more protential than most.

I watched Rudd on the 7.30 report last night and he couldnt even understand Kerry Obrions questions let alone answer them.

As for the rumour about Australian Muslim leaders working with Aboriginals - yes there is a programe to get the regional areas working in plants and factories.

It has everything to do with harmoney and creating jobs in regional areas.- not war.
It was presented to them by main stream home grown Aussies for goodness sake!

I believe you will find the details here =

http://www.halakindmeats.com/submissions.html



I think most of you here know our organisation works with Muslim leaders BUT have you ever bothered to ask questions or even listen 'David.'

No way.

You just keep opening anti Muslim threads. If ever there is a war you will have been half the problem.

OLO should have some Government control.

Try doing a googles under OLO and all you get is anti Islam.

Its an absolute discrace. I stand up for Australia and Animals etc.
I tell them off (to their faces )if they are doing the wrong thing- and that includes the Muslim Leader 'but' this anti Muslim agenda on OLO should be banned.

I might add I say again if people are NOT prepaired to own their own comments they shouldnt post!

Whos David PALE?