She has done her homework and is capable of ascertaining the difference. Why do you ask? Are you having a bad day?

Posted by mjpb, Thursday, 11 September 2008 10:48:36 AM

She's asking for my opinion by placing the topic on here. So far, I haven't seen any evidence to suggest discrimination, only ineptitude. Yeah, I read some of her blog.

I'll take it on board if I see some evidence of discrimination. Happy too.

I'm having a bad day because I question the reasoning behind the title of the thread?.

Why do I have to justify my question with you?.

...and who are you to speak for her?.

Veronika,

I’m glad we see eye to eye on the global issues and you have made some good points.

“Great intelligence combined with an aptitude in the law, or medicine, or literature, or maths, or science can still propel you to the top of your profession.”

Perhaps but the output would be more effective if, unless there is a compelling reason not to, they always did.

”One last point: intelligence isn't wisdom.”

But would it matter if the two turned out to strongly correlate? You seem to harbor a stereotype that they don’t. I googled for definitions and there seems to be a noticeable overlap in any case.

”My basic question is, sure, we are more democratic and less meritocratic since the 60s.”

I don’t believe that the shift can be axiomatically dichotomized into that framework. There appeared to be a shift to an almost total rejection of tradition (the democracy of the dead) which severely narrows the concept of democracy as well as (pooled) merit. The sound byte culture also seems to undermine the substance of democracy to a degree. It is like a shift from informed consent to uninformed consent albeit in the context of a much broader array of (sound byte) knowledge (exacerbated to an extent but also trading off to an extent with googling).

“But do the latter really have anything to complain about?”

Apparently so based on the existence of this thread.

StG,

“I'm having a bad day because I question the reasoning behind the title of the thread?”

I am of the view that it isn’t friendly to accuse someone’s children of being inept.

mjbp, its quite possible that in paraphrasing what she was told, Jolanda got the context incorrect, and its equally likely that the public servants she was speaking to (a) didnt understand the definition of discrimination themselves, or (b) said anything to make her go away. I am quite accepting of the theory that something like this even if true is just too difficult for the public service to stomach.

The point remains that there was no discrimination against any children BECAUSE they were gifted, just allegedly sub-optimal treatment because the officials didnt like those particular kids (or their mother). If the events described did happen, I'm as annoyed as the next person and it should be (and probably is) illegal, but that still doesnt make it discrimination.

Also, I point out to you that not once did I question Jolanda's mental capacity, just that I believed her (obviously considerable) energies could be directed towards a more positive outcome for her kids rather than revenge and vindication. Tough as it might be for the kids its a good life lesson in the fruitlessness of banging your head against a brick wall. Much better to think about creative solutions.

Veronika - I agree. School was mostly a waste of time. I've taken a few things away from senior subjects such as Phys and Chem, and English probably honed my argumentative side a little (though from comments from my parents I think I was born that way) - certainly there were a few teachers glad to see the back of me! But it got me into uni (another waste of time and money), which got me into post-grad (that actually was useful).

mjpb: "You seem to harbor a stereotype that [intelligence and wisdom] don't [correlate]."

Oh, but I *do* think they correlate, most strongly. I do NOT, however, think they are synonyms.

I really just meant to question how we should respond to the cream of our clever crop. The answer, I suspect, is myriad, but I think it's worth remembering that intelligence is its own reward. And that intelligent people are often socially/financially rewarded because they are able to excel in various arenas. I'm not sure that they're deserving of special treatment over and above any special treatment their gifts earn them. The intelligent have to earn their stripes before they can bask in society's approbation.

Of course, we must value and celebrate and learn from highly intelligent people. Be advised by them. Admire them. Particularly in our celebrity-saturated culture.

Me: "But do the latter really have anything to complain about?"
mjpb: "Apparently so based on the existence of this thread."

Actually, that's why I said my comments were off-topic. I had a look at Jolanda's website, and, while I find her allegations hard to understand, I agree with Country Girl that she isn't asserting a prejudice against "gifted" children in general (the selective schools and opportunity groups still exist, after all), but some particular prejudice against her children and family. Thereafter, the complaints seem to relate to a departmental failure to follow the correct processes, general bullying and a cover-up — all directed at Jolanda's family.

How we deal with particularly intelligent children is, of course, tricky. And while I take your point that one can't neatly divide educational institutions into democratic/meritocratic models, it probably is true that very smart children are praised less these days because we have a heightened sensitivity to those at the other end of the sliding scale. This is wrong. We should nurture intelligence.

On the other hand, we should remember "gifted" children don't *always* become particularly smart grown-ups. Sometimes their learning is simply precocious, and other children eventually catch up.

Hmm. I don't really have a point. Just throwing stuff around.

Country Gal: "Also, I point out to you that not once did I question Jolanda's mental capacity, just that I believed her (obviously considerable) energies could be directed towards a more positive outcome for her kids rather than revenge and vindication. Tough as it might be for the kids its a good life lesson in the fruitlessness of banging your head against a brick wall. Much better to think about creative solutions."

This sounds very sensible. Jolanda, out of interest, how do you nuture your children's talents? What are there particular talents? Have they got any corresponding weaknesses, or are have their social skills suffered at all? Are they bored in school?

I see there are some good support groups for gifted children in Australia. Have any been able to help you in supporting your children?

I read a good article here: http://www.gifted-children.com.au/index.html?wid=23&func=viewSubmission&sid=49

StG,

“I'm having a bad day because I question the reasoning behind the title of the thread?”

I am of the view that it isn’t friendly to accuse someone’s children of being inept.

Posted by mjpb, Thursday, 11 September 2008 1:46:08 PM

Yeah, this is why I'd stopped coming to this site.

I wasn't calling the children inept. I was talking about the people Jolanda was up against.

Are THEY being discriminatory, or are THEY merely inept?. Now, stop show boating and let Jolanda talk for herself, thanks.