Recently I made a formal complaint to the Anti-Discrimination board of systematic victimisation aimed at me and at our four children.

Back in the year 2003 I made our first formal complaints after documents produced under FOI showed evidence of bias and manipulation in relation to school applications and test scores pertaining to our children. Back then the Anti-Discrimination board wouldn't investigate our complaints saying that it wasn't against the law to discriminate against gifted children.

Eight years later and after continuing victimization and discrimination aimed even at our younger children and much distress we have documentary evidence that shows that I have been presented over the years as having been deemed vexatious by the Minister, amongst other things, by the person we allege is victimising our family when in fact we have a recent letter from the DET that says that I have never been deemed vexatious by the DET or the Minister.

Problem is that documents clearly show that complaints of bias and victimization aimed at our children over many years were covered up and ignored on the basis of lies presented by the Leader of the Selective Schools Unit.

The Anti-Discrimination board has said that it is limited in its scope and does not prohibit all possible types of discrimination or victimization and they will not investigate our complaints as only certain types of discrimination and victimisation is unlawful. This is despite the fact that the targets are innocent children.

How can the Anti-Discrimination board be allowed to discriminate and why are innocent children not protected?

Education - Keeping them Honest
http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/education/
Our children deserve better

Firstly I note that it is unsurprising that no supporters have yet responded. You can always pick a group suffering significant discrimination in a given epoch by the scarcity of external supporters when they complain about their injustice. It is only after a group, which formerly suffered discrimination, gain popular support and no longer experience significant discrimination that their increasingly pedantic or artificial causes are championed by external supporters. I am sorry to hear about the plight of your children.

In direct response to your questions, anti-discrimination boards are usually set up by legislation which prescribes their powers and activities. Thus the board itself is not the gatekeeper who does the discriminating.

The prescription of powers includes defining their area of operation to include particular groups. They have no power to assist other groups. In theory some discrimination in the literal sense of differentiating between things is necessary so that the board can be given the power to assist anyone. In practice laws (including laws setting up such boards) are made by politicians and thus (ironically) more powerful groups who can impact more easily upon votes are more likely to get included. This creates a situation where some groups who may need to generate creative methods to experience any prejudice get special protection while other groups who experience discrimination whilst going about their lives on a day to day basis do not enjoy any legal protection.

I believe that gifted children and their adult counterparts are a small minority in numbers and haven't fared well from the 60s cultural upheaval where change at any cost is valued and intelligence is usually devalued. Nor have their opinions, based on more thought and understanding in consequence of their strengths, fared well from information overload and the consequent sound byte society where opinions are formed based on whatever sounds better in 10 words or less even if the reality of an in depth consideration may be the opposite.

I spose Censorship is a topic not of a desired nature.

However, I am repeatedly suprised by the hypocrisy of persons of influence sitting in ivory towers peering down upon the public. These, in their slect positions proffer themselves to be ideological guides for society. They have powers, and can access information.

Take for example the employment network MAX-network. (Hello MAX) they are watching me as I type this letter.

Yesterday, I used one of their desktops to post a blog note on another site, and the contnet was of such a nature that I presume it infuriated the Femminist leadership of MAXnetwork.

They have since sought to block access to that particular site using their sophisticated Inet surfing profile and block software. This is an illegal act.

Not only that, but the MAXnetwork are funded by government to provide services to the public, and thus any instruments of the service are for the public, and not to be used for gains by the operators of the service (in a manner of speaking). The operators arer employed to provide services to the public, not to be sitting in ivory towers peering at people, and not to encapsulate the services on offer for their own personal gains.

So, MAXnetwork likes Censorship and moral controls eh, well, so does the Government they work in service of.

Thanks mjpb. The thing that I do not understand is why children are not protected from prejudice, bias, discrimination and victimisation. Surely all children should be protected - not just some children. Otherwise that allows for child neglect and psychological abuse!

The Anti-Discrimination board says the following in relation to victimsation http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/adb/ll_adb.nsf/pages/adb_victimisation.

Their position is that if you have made a complaint and your are treated unfavourably then, unless you can prove that it is because of your age, carer’s responsibilities, disability, homosexuality, marital status, race, sex, pregnancy, transgender, and that it is because you made a complaint to the Anti-Discrimination board then they will not help you or protect you no matter what evidence of bias, manipulation and misconduct that you have or no matter what is being done.

It is extremely disturbing to see that victimisation based on prejudice, malice, spite or even based on jelousy is not included in the list. You would have to question who they are protecting?

It just seems unreal that adults can bully, neglect, victimise and abuse children and target, defame and vilify a parent on the grounds that they do not like who they are or what they represent and that no Law will protect the innocent parties even if they are children.

The other thing is that when these 'so called' 'Investigatory bodies' do not invesigate complaints then people think that there is no case to answer and therefore they discredit you by not affording you any rights.....It is just so wrong and unfair. As law abiding citizens we should be entitled to rights and children should always be protected......

Not only do they close the door in your face and treat you as insignificant you are told that a decision under this section to decline a complaint in whole or in part is not reviewable by the Tribunal! How is that fair?

You are welcome.

They aren't protected due to the irony I highlighted above. However I understand that is not a literal question and agree it is not good.

You label it their position but as I said in the previous post they don't have the power. That is the source of the problem.

"You would have to question who they are protecting?"

There appears to be some redundancy in the list. Sometimes I wonder if that gives a clue.

It should be unreal but unfortunately it is contemporary Australia. There is less of a concept of natural justice and more of an empower whoever has the most might at the time approach.

"The other thing is that when these 'so called' 'Investigatory bodies' do not invesigate complaints then people think that there is no case to answer and therefore they discredit you by not affording you any rights.....It is just so wrong and unfair. As law abiding citizens we should be entitled to rights and children should always be protected......"

I can only imagine the frustration.

"Not only do they close the door in your face and treat you as insignificant you are told that a decision under this section to decline a complaint in whole or in part is not reviewable by the Tribunal! How is that fair?"

Clearly it is not fair. It is surprisingly that they don't highlight their lack of power. It almost seems like the people you dealt with enjoy saying no rather than empathise with your predicament and explain that they don't have the power.

Gadget that is an excellent example of the way things are going. Our government is currently trying to implement a censorship scheme that is modelled on the Chinese regime that will apply to all households and access points. They want to bring what these people did at that company to you, to everyone in Australia. The best answer is to end your association with the major parties permanently.

Jolanda, I have to give it to you for tenacity re schools. You've commented on this a few times.

I've had experience with both the public and private school systems.

In both teaching and meeting special requirements for your children can be either excellent or mediocre. But the big difference is that, increasingly, in the public school system, parents are not seen as 'customers', but as people who should be darn grateful that the school has no choice but take your kids. It is irrelevant that you also have no choice but have to send your child to the school in your area.

So, I presume that your problems are not with a private school.

Complaining to any authority about any aspect in a public school is a monumental waste of time and energy. Other parents want to keep their heads down and distance themselves lest their kids get caught up.

The most that will happen is that your child will be made to pay in some form or other.

I learned the hard way when I protested about my child receiving a particular brand of Christian education without my consent (in a secular state school!). I was told I could request her not to participate. She was then made to take her desk and chair to the back of the class facing the wall when 'religion' was taught.

At the end of the year-before Christmas break-up, all the kids who learned all about Evangelical Christianity got a sweet treat from the person teaching, except: my daughter and the one other child who were removed from the sessions. She was rather distraught about this at the time-the teacher told her she couldn't get a lolly because she didn't do 'religious education'.

This is grade three I'm talking about.

I wrote letters to the Department of Education and quoted to them the relevant sections from the Mission Statement. Absolute waste of time.

So, I'm not the slightest bit surprised about your story.

How do you conclude it to be 'discrimination' and not just ineptitude, Jolanda?.

StG
"How do you conclude it to be 'discrimination' and not just ineptitude, Jolanda?"

She has done her homework and is capable of ascertaining the difference. Why do you ask? Are you having a bad day?

Its not discrimination, that's why the particular body you chose to complain to this time cant help. Discrimination is "treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit" (dictionary.com). Jolanda and her children may or may not be the target of a cover-up by the education powers that be, and everyone else, but the alledged treatment has been aimed at her and her family, not because they belong to any particular group or class, but because she complained about a perceived error in her children's test scores.

A background for those of you that are unaware of the situation. Jolanda believes her children are "gifted" (which they may very well be, I dont detract from that). She claims that her chldren have been excluded from gifted programs and public "selective schools" and that their test scores have been manipulated to keep them out. Sounds to me very like sour grapes and not being able to accept that her kids, while being gifted, arent gifted enough when compared with their peers to be accepted into the selective schools program. Most parents would accept this and try to make alternative arrangements - a number of private schools offer full or near full scholarships to students that they believe will left the school's average academic performance as an investment in advertising. But Jolanda isnt interested in solutions, she wants revenge and has spent 10's of $1000's on legal fees that could have been used in hiring tutors and paying private school fees for her talented children.

I dont dispute that the system is quite capable of being vindictive and covering-up ineptitudes, but most of us have the good sense to direct our energies towards where they will be most productive.

Country Gal,

“Its not discrimination, that's why the particular body you chose to complain to this time cant help.”

If that is the reason for their decision to not act then why do they say things like the following:

“Back then the Anti-Discrimination board wouldn't investigate our complaints saying that it wasn't against the law to discriminate against gifted children.”

“The Anti-Discrimination board has said that it is limited in its scope and does not prohibit all possible types of discrimination or victimization and they will not investigate our complaints as only certain types of discrimination and victimisation is unlawful.”

Their responses are more consistent with either having not considered that issue or having considered it and deciding that the behaviour is discriminatory. Either way that doesn’t seem to explain their responses.

“good sense”

I haven’t looked into the background but it seems that you would be exhibiting good sense if you were particularly cautious about making any negative comments relating to Yolanda’s brain function in the circumstances.

Sorry, this is off-topic, but I just wanted to comment on mjpb's comment: "... gifted children and their adult counterparts are a small minority in numbers and haven't fared well from the 60s cultural upheaval..."

Interesting. Culture changed qualitatively in the 60s, and while I remain deeply grateful for the questioning of authority that resulted in civil rights advances, I agree that relativism devalued genius. These days, universities are democracies rather than meritocracies.

But what sort of special treatment do "intelligent" people want? Or deserve? Great intelligence combined with an aptitude in the law, or medicine, or literature, or maths, or science can still propel you to the top of your profession. More importantly, we have bequeathed to us the entirety of Western and other civilisations. Why should clever people ever be bored when the state is so kind to build us lovely libraries?

I'm not saying I'm particularly clever, but I'm sure a lot of people will relate to me if I say that I barely remember what I learned in school, or even at uni, but feel the bulk of my education came out of my own reading, which I endeavour to keep dynamic, varied and, for want of a better word, intelligent. I now have a job that's connected to a academic discipline which I have never formally studied.

As for being heard by culture, I agree that there's been a shift, but you can't argue that intelligence has been completely devalued. You may not like their politics, but the PM on one side and Mr Turnbull on the other are both demonstrably intelligent men. New Idea may sell more issues than The Monthly, but The Monthly still exists.

Besides, Aristotle's considerable genius wasn't valued by his society either. We shouldn't romanticise previous epochs.

One last point: intelligence isn't wisdom. The mandarin class needs to do more than just be clever.

My basic question is, sure, we are more democratic and less meritocratic since the 60s. From this, many gained. (The formerly unheard.) Some lost. (The ponderous.) But do the latter really have anything to complain about?

She has done her homework and is capable of ascertaining the difference. Why do you ask? Are you having a bad day?

Posted by mjpb, Thursday, 11 September 2008 10:48:36 AM

She's asking for my opinion by placing the topic on here. So far, I haven't seen any evidence to suggest discrimination, only ineptitude. Yeah, I read some of her blog.

I'll take it on board if I see some evidence of discrimination. Happy too.

I'm having a bad day because I question the reasoning behind the title of the thread?.

Why do I have to justify my question with you?.

...and who are you to speak for her?.

Veronika,

I’m glad we see eye to eye on the global issues and you have made some good points.

“Great intelligence combined with an aptitude in the law, or medicine, or literature, or maths, or science can still propel you to the top of your profession.”

Perhaps but the output would be more effective if, unless there is a compelling reason not to, they always did.

”One last point: intelligence isn't wisdom.”

But would it matter if the two turned out to strongly correlate? You seem to harbor a stereotype that they don’t. I googled for definitions and there seems to be a noticeable overlap in any case.

”My basic question is, sure, we are more democratic and less meritocratic since the 60s.”

I don’t believe that the shift can be axiomatically dichotomized into that framework. There appeared to be a shift to an almost total rejection of tradition (the democracy of the dead) which severely narrows the concept of democracy as well as (pooled) merit. The sound byte culture also seems to undermine the substance of democracy to a degree. It is like a shift from informed consent to uninformed consent albeit in the context of a much broader array of (sound byte) knowledge (exacerbated to an extent but also trading off to an extent with googling).

“But do the latter really have anything to complain about?”

Apparently so based on the existence of this thread.

StG,

“I'm having a bad day because I question the reasoning behind the title of the thread?”

I am of the view that it isn’t friendly to accuse someone’s children of being inept.

mjbp, its quite possible that in paraphrasing what she was told, Jolanda got the context incorrect, and its equally likely that the public servants she was speaking to (a) didnt understand the definition of discrimination themselves, or (b) said anything to make her go away. I am quite accepting of the theory that something like this even if true is just too difficult for the public service to stomach.

The point remains that there was no discrimination against any children BECAUSE they were gifted, just allegedly sub-optimal treatment because the officials didnt like those particular kids (or their mother). If the events described did happen, I'm as annoyed as the next person and it should be (and probably is) illegal, but that still doesnt make it discrimination.

Also, I point out to you that not once did I question Jolanda's mental capacity, just that I believed her (obviously considerable) energies could be directed towards a more positive outcome for her kids rather than revenge and vindication. Tough as it might be for the kids its a good life lesson in the fruitlessness of banging your head against a brick wall. Much better to think about creative solutions.

Veronika - I agree. School was mostly a waste of time. I've taken a few things away from senior subjects such as Phys and Chem, and English probably honed my argumentative side a little (though from comments from my parents I think I was born that way) - certainly there were a few teachers glad to see the back of me! But it got me into uni (another waste of time and money), which got me into post-grad (that actually was useful).

mjpb: "You seem to harbor a stereotype that [intelligence and wisdom] don't [correlate]."

Oh, but I *do* think they correlate, most strongly. I do NOT, however, think they are synonyms.

I really just meant to question how we should respond to the cream of our clever crop. The answer, I suspect, is myriad, but I think it's worth remembering that intelligence is its own reward. And that intelligent people are often socially/financially rewarded because they are able to excel in various arenas. I'm not sure that they're deserving of special treatment over and above any special treatment their gifts earn them. The intelligent have to earn their stripes before they can bask in society's approbation.

Of course, we must value and celebrate and learn from highly intelligent people. Be advised by them. Admire them. Particularly in our celebrity-saturated culture.

Me: "But do the latter really have anything to complain about?"
mjpb: "Apparently so based on the existence of this thread."

Actually, that's why I said my comments were off-topic. I had a look at Jolanda's website, and, while I find her allegations hard to understand, I agree with Country Girl that she isn't asserting a prejudice against "gifted" children in general (the selective schools and opportunity groups still exist, after all), but some particular prejudice against her children and family. Thereafter, the complaints seem to relate to a departmental failure to follow the correct processes, general bullying and a cover-up — all directed at Jolanda's family.

How we deal with particularly intelligent children is, of course, tricky. And while I take your point that one can't neatly divide educational institutions into democratic/meritocratic models, it probably is true that very smart children are praised less these days because we have a heightened sensitivity to those at the other end of the sliding scale. This is wrong. We should nurture intelligence.

On the other hand, we should remember "gifted" children don't *always* become particularly smart grown-ups. Sometimes their learning is simply precocious, and other children eventually catch up.

Hmm. I don't really have a point. Just throwing stuff around.

Country Gal: "Also, I point out to you that not once did I question Jolanda's mental capacity, just that I believed her (obviously considerable) energies could be directed towards a more positive outcome for her kids rather than revenge and vindication. Tough as it might be for the kids its a good life lesson in the fruitlessness of banging your head against a brick wall. Much better to think about creative solutions."

This sounds very sensible. Jolanda, out of interest, how do you nuture your children's talents? What are there particular talents? Have they got any corresponding weaknesses, or are have their social skills suffered at all? Are they bored in school?

I see there are some good support groups for gifted children in Australia. Have any been able to help you in supporting your children?

I read a good article here: http://www.gifted-children.com.au/index.html?wid=23&func=viewSubmission&sid=49

StG,

“I'm having a bad day because I question the reasoning behind the title of the thread?”

I am of the view that it isn’t friendly to accuse someone’s children of being inept.

Posted by mjpb, Thursday, 11 September 2008 1:46:08 PM

Yeah, this is why I'd stopped coming to this site.

I wasn't calling the children inept. I was talking about the people Jolanda was up against.

Are THEY being discriminatory, or are THEY merely inept?. Now, stop show boating and let Jolanda talk for herself, thanks.

I am sorry that I haven’t had a chance to come on and respond. Apart from working part time 4/5 days per week, looking after the house, hubby and 4 kids (two doing the HSC) and being responsible for the paperwork involved in the business, I have been trying to get my head around some matters to do with an FOI application that we have lodged at the ADT wherein we ask the DET to produce documents that prove that they have investigated our complaints. I have a date that it needs to be done; I have been working well into the night.

It is amazing how the DET presents their list of the documents. They are not in date order, they are not grouped in anyway, all 85 entries all random so it is very hard to get a clear picture and you can get confused.

The thing is that after I made the original complaints of the neglect of the education of our children and the bullying treatment by ‘some’ teachers things started happening to my children that on the face of it appeared ‘obviously wrong’ and the children were always coming home upset and they didn’t want to go to school and that the teachers didn’t like them.

After we were advised of test results for OC and Selective High School tests that the children said that they had to see to believe we requested documents under FOI. Documents produced under FOI showed evidence of bias, tampering and manipulation that negatively impacted on my children and family. We complained but they have just allowed the persons against whom we had made the complaints to deal with the complaints and close the matter.

Problem is that they then targeted my younger children. They wanted to maintain the picture that the children were not that smart and that I was just a crazy pushy parent. But I have never pushed my children, they developed very quickly and they were that smart and had special educational needs.

To be continued

The most important thing here is that we made formal allegations of bias and discrimination and we had documents to back it up. The type of discrimination was more than somebody just making a decision not to pick our kids for a team, class or part of a school. This discrimination involved somebody actively going in after hours and manipulating with our children’s test marks, school applications and scores in order to present a negative picture of our children so that they would be unsuccessful. It also involved somebody presenting very negative reports and analysis on myself and the abilities of our 4 children.

The DET has refused to accept even fresh complaints in relation to the younger kids even though we have documentary evidence to support our allegations and just said that the complaints were the type of complaint as before and that the matter had been investigated and closed. However they refuse to produce proof of their investigation.

These people have not been stopped and they have continued to target the kids for over 8 years. Two of my kids are doing their HSC and they are worried about their marks. It isn’t right that the DET can ignore legitimate complaints, defame parents and not protect the children.

I will try to answer later a bit more but unfortunately I have to do invoicing.

STG how inept is a public servant permitted to be in relation to matters pertaining to one family? You can make one 'mistake' or maybe two but if you make mistake, after mistake, after mistake in relation to the same children, year after year, it has to be questioned.

Some people don't understand that it is my children who are complaining, I am merely advocating for them as it isn't fair to put children up against bully adults.

Veronica the most difficult years were the Primary school years as they are very sensitive, emotional children and it hurt them to be treated so unfairly and for nobody to care. We also didn't have enough money to offer them choice. As we fought back in order to clear our name it became easier for them and they hold their head high. My kids are very big on social justice and they do not like bullies and they see the bigger picture and they want things to be better.

Educationally, emotionally and psychologically my kids suffered, especially in the Primary years. The years when they had a mean or bad teacher were horrible as they were bored and scared day after day. They didn't feel safe.

After a few years they basically lost interest in school, hated going and started wished their life away. They have bad memories of their early school learning experience and school.

I don't do things too differently for my kids I just have to provide them with love, food, books, and very fast internet acess - one computer each. Computers has made it easy to keep kids occupied and amused. They also all play competition sports and are very talented in the sporting arena.

The kids have never had problems with friends. My children socialise well at whatever level they choose to socialise. They are not your in your face type gifted children, they are humble and they are good kids who love a good, clean challenge. The type of kids the adults in system like to crush.......

Mjpb. It is nice to hear from somebody who understands and has an open mind about the issues.

The thing is that 'intelligence' doesn't represent a position in society or a level of achievement. All 'intelligence' represents is a need, a need to have information presented at a higher and faster level and speed and a need to have access to other people of similar intelligence who have similar interests and needs. Otherwise school and socializing can be a drag and a nightmare and students have to spend a lot of time there.

Country girl it amazes me that my fighting for our children’s right to be protected and treated fairly and without bias and discrimination is interpreted by you as revenge and vindication. I can’t help but wonder how that works? Maybe you could explain?

All,

StG resolved the ambiguity by advising that he was referring to inept public servants in his original comment which is good. Unfortunately he included flaming which apparently resulted in the post being deleted.

StG,

Sorry for any misunderstanding but if you look at the context you'll probably see why I was mistaken and why noone else pulled me up. As you can see Yolanda was just busy. The fact that I respond to your posts wasn't the reason she was silent.

Yolanda,

You are welcome. Intelligence certainly doesn't guarantee a particular place in society. The media trots out research on that from time to time. I had more to say on the particular examples cited if it remained topical.

mjpb.

The 'ambiguity' is laid squarely at your feet, or mind. Country Gal came back and asked the same question as me.

The deleted post is there, less two words.

I didn't think she was silent because you were talking for her. My question was directed at her, and her alone. I knew she'd come back to her topic to attempt to answer any questions anyone might have. Which she did.

Just for the record, I'm still not convinced it's discrimination. It does seem there's an issue of some description, but discrimination?, I haven't seen any evidence of it.

Jolanda:"This discrimination involved somebody actively going in after hours and manipulating with our children’s test marks, school applications and scores in order to present a negative picture of our children so that they would be unsuccessful."

If this occurred, it is not discriminatory, but it certainly is a breach of the terms of employment of anyone who may have done it. It may also be grounds for criminal action. Do you have proof of this "tampering", or is it merely speculation?

In all honesty, Jolanda, as much as I'd like to take your side, you come across as a doting mother who simply refuses to believe anything other than the most glowing things about your children. We don't do our kids any favours if we don't look at them realistically. Sure, they may be precocious, but so are lots of kids. I was a "gifted" child myself, in an era in which no special services existed. I ended up being promoted to higher grades twice, which was not really a favour because it meant I had no peers of my own age at a time when there is a large difference developmentally between age-groups a couple of years apart.

The more I read of your situation, the sorrier I feel for your kids and the less I see it as being the fault of the school. I'm quite sure that they're a mass of resentments and vague anger, all of it manufactured by your behaviour, I'm sad to say. My mum was very determined to "give me the best opportunity" just as you are and I never told her that I was ungrateful for her efforts on my behalf. Obsessions can be hard to let go, but my recommendation is to try, for their sake.

Anansi.It seems that the DET doesn’t actually deal with matters pertaining to them preferring to focus on discrediting parents and children.

Aniseptic. My children were very unhappy and bored with school. The days and years are long and draining when you already know everything that you are going to be shown. The mismatch between their abilities and what they were being taught was extreme. By age 6 one daughter was given a formal reading assessment by a Registered Psychologist and she hit the ceiling of the test (better than 12.5 years) with 95% comprehension. When she started school they taught her the alphabet when she already knew how to read fluently, given her level of advancement, and it was across the board, she was expected to sit and do nothing for the whole of her primary school years. She became depressed, sick and didn’t want to go to school. By year 3 she was very unwell and withdrawn and I brought the issue up with the teacher/school and the teacher in return started humiliating my daughter in class about her intellect and then took her outside and very aggressively told her that she was getting into trouble because my daughter was bored in school. My daughter was so distressed that she came home in a state of despair. That is when I lodged a formal complaint with the DET – they crossed the line. We had experienced issues for years and we let it go because we were scared that our children would pay the price and just taught our children strategies to cope but it wasn’t working as the kids were becoming depressed. The children were not just academically advanced, they were also advanced in maturity and they struggled to deal with the behaviour of their teachers and age peers.

The schools said that they didn’t have the resources or funding to cater for their identified needs and that when they got to OC and Selective Schools that things would be better. However when the time came the DET wouldn’t let them in.

To be continued

Cont....Some of you seem not to understand the fact that I didn’t lodge the complaints of bias and manipulation until after we received documents that showed clear evidence of bias tampering and manipulation. The original complaints were of educational neglect. That you want to blame me is no surprise. The system relies on people blaming the parent. I say to you what I have always said to them. If you do not believe me ask the children if I have ever pushed them or whether it was in fact them pushing me? As them whether they believe the marks that they were given and ask them why?

I have only ever requested appropriate education for my children. They should be entitled to that.

STG. You are of course right in that if discrimination only involves unfair treatment of certain groups and you are not one of those groups then by Law it isn’t discrimination however in reality it is discrimination because it shouldn’t matter who you are or who you represent, if somebody treats you unfairly and in a manner that is unjust then you should be protected by law. The whole problem is that prejudice, malice and spite are not covered by discrimination law when really they should get rid of all the groups and the defining factor should be prejudice, malice and spite and not whether you are gay, or black or disabled etc.

To be continued

"...discrimination only involves unfair treatment of certain groups and you are not one of those groups..."

Posted by Jolanda, Friday, 12 September 2008 11:00:54 PM

Yeah, there it is. That's where I figured you were coming from.

All the best for the future of your kids.

Cont.....One would think that if state records have been manipulated in order to inflict harm and oppress that there would be a case to answer but it appears that they are only required to give an excuse and no matter how far fetched it is it will be accepted. Some of the excuses they have given for some of the discrepancies are ridiculous like that my son’s second initial inadvertently slipped onto the next line on the ‘so called’ true and accurate copies of my children’s test results that had errors and inconsistencies. The fact that my son doesn’t have a second name and therefore doesn’t have a second initial didn’t seem to count. There have been so many lies and misrepresentations presented to Selection Committees and appeal panels. They also destroyed the original answer sheets that we had specifically requested to be set aside under FOI so we could verify the marks. You would think that if they destroyed documents that were requested under FOI there would be consequences but they just said that they didn’t think it was necessary as they had electronic details of the results and it was accepted. They destroyed the original documents on the day the matter was for planning meeting at the Administrative Decisions Tribunal for access to those exact original documents.

There is so much more. Truth be told my children have exceeded my wildest expectations from the moment that they were born and all I have ever asked for is for the system to take into consideration their obvious abilities and needs and I asked this because my children were complaining to me and becoming sick and depressed. As a parent it breaks your heart to see your children suffer and to see them being treated so unfairly and unjustly. They deserve better.

Stg. The thing is that this Country goes on about equal right but in reality there is no such thing as equal rights as people can be discriminated against without any means of protection......

Oh and I forgot to say Stg - thanks for wishing my children well.

These responses have been very helpful as it has made me realise that really I should focus only on the manipulation of state records and the failure to provide my children and family with independant and impartial decisions in relation to my children's school applications and in relation to the complaints. It is just hard to accept that the Law would not value a person enough to protect them and instead allow innocent children to be treated in this manner and form and not provide them with any protection.

Truth be told I haven't claimed discrimination as I knew that we just didn't qualify. I did think, however, that if we were treated unfairly because we complained then it would fall under victimisation. I didn't realise that we could be treated like pieces of dirt by Government employees and no matter whether we were good law abiding citizens or not that we wouldn't count or be treated as human beings. I am sure that if an animal was treated unfairly and in a manner that was unjust everybody would jump up and down. It is sad that people do not feel the same way about people. For sure if we were criminals we would get more rights and protection.

In any event I will continue to fight this because if public servants (including teachers) can just change students marks to put them down, mark them down, oppress them and humiliate them just because they think that they are too smart or because they are outspoken then that is a problem that as a society we should address. Society only ever goes backwards when things are not fair.

Jolanda, I've looked at the pre school work of your children and can personally relate to your story. One of my children did very similar work.

When she went into grade 1 we had her in a tiny school which combined grades 1,2 and 3. She topped grade 3 and read and spelled at age 12.5 level! She had a wonderful teacher who could cater for her ability. So she was spared learning to read.

Unfortunately when she went to grade 3 she went to a more conventional school and basically repeated. There was greater concern for her to be with peers (age wise, not intellect wise). We were not happy about this, but accepted this. Instead I took her for Chinese lessons on Saturdays (at a buddhist temple opening her eyes to a whole different world) and music.

Now in High school she is doing the curriculum in French. Makes everything just that bit more challenging!

Antiseptic relates his own experiences being pushed into higher grades, which were negative, so I'm glad we didn't.

Similarly, we have a child who was made to continue into the next year throughout primary school even though accademically he was struggling. This was due to a variety of reasons. I've pleaded, changed schools for him to please repeat a year to 'catch up'. Again, there was a greater obsession with age then ability.

By year 10 it all became too much, year 11 massive depression and not able to finish school and feel good about himself. It was a scary year for us.

If you were to devote your drive and energy to changing the convention that children, especially during primary school years, are to be educated at a level based on their age, I would support you whole heartedly. I'm quite leery of classifying children as gifted, slow or any other label.

Children's brains develop at a great variety of levels. Especially during primary school and all children deserve to learn at their optimum level.

Anansi. There is this idea that acceleration does damage to children when in reality it only damges children who should not have been accelerated. Maybe they were not gifted enough, or maybe they were not mature enough, or maybe the environment that they were being put into wasn't accepting and understanding enough.

All the research on acceleration shows that acceleration not only works it benefits the gifted child. Of course the student has to be motivated and want to accelerate.

Two of my daughters accelerated one year after many years of suffering and truth be told it made no difference to their educational situation but what it did do is make high school one year closer.

What some people do not realise is that I have never pushed my children and we have never asked for the curriculum to be over their heads. All we ever asked for was the curriculum to be appropriate to their obvious level and need. It was my children telling me that they were in the wrong grade and year. It was my children telling me that they did nothing all day and that they hated school. It was my children who were telling me that the teachers were marking them down, putting them down and humiliating them. It was my children who said their OC and Selective Schools marks had to be wrong as they didn't find the tests that difficult and to get 25% in subjects where they were highly gifted and had absolute strengths and when they were at a minium 5 years advanced for their age told them that something was wrong.

It isn't our fault that documents produced under FOI confirmed our suspicions. Do you think that it is the duty of a parent to persue Justice and protection for her children if there is evidence of bias, bullying and manipulation being inflicted on children so as to oppress them and deny them opportunities - year after year?

Anansi one of my concerns in education is the fact that they make our children compete in academic competition for access to higher level education and information. Why do students need to win a competition to get access to information? Surely the education system can provide appropriate education for all students without having to make them compete in academic competition. It isn't fair to make students compete for their education at primary and high school level as they all come from different backgrounds and schools and they have different social standing and cultures. Without being sure that they have all been exposed to the same information and have had the same support then how can the system be allowed to give better learning opportunities only to those who get the highest test marks on certain tests on certain days.

It is also a fact that the public system is under funded and under-resourced and many schools are labeled disadvantaged. Then they make public school students compete with private school students in academic competition for access to selective Schools and no allowance is made for the disadvantage that the public system provides students.

I would like to see a system where students 'choose' what grade and level they want their education presented to them in the different subject areas and the school sets up the classes to cater for the students needs. Of course the students would need to be informed of what will be presented, at what speed and level and what they will be required to do to maintain their position.

I sincerely believe that it would be much better for our children if their focus was discussing what level and speed they would be trying to work at the next year rather than what boy/girl they like and when they are going to have their next drink.

Jolanda A mental capacity often spectacular occurs in children, whether it be music [ear ] Math, or watever else is in their learning.
There is no such thing as a child nowing without learning. If a child is interested by a particular subject they will pick it up quicker. This notion of a gifted child is very real. Thats why we all have different employments. But to say your child is being held back by the system, is incorrect. If you think your child can handle more then it is up to you to provide that. We cannot provide a system on the public purse that says gifted children this way. Gifted in what.

Olly. A child goes to school to learn. If a child is gifted and by that I mean intellectually gifted they have the capacity to process information at a much higher level and speed. These children generally have a big interest in books, they read alot. They tend to like to learn and they learn quickly.

This means that they are by nature ahead of the curriculum for their age and year. Why do you think it is okay for a student to spend year after year at school learning nothing. Surely academically advanced gifted children have the same rights as non academically advanced gifted children to learn whilst at school? Children spend many hours at school. The Law says that children have to attend school and that the education system will provide appropriate education. How can you honestly believe that a Gifted child has no right to be educated appropriately from the public purse.

Jolanda, the public school system is designed to provide a reasonable education to the average person. I dont think anyone has pretended that it should be all things to all people. Look, I am not unsympathetic - I was kept back 2 years in primary school (I had been home-schooled and in doing so had accelerated 2 years ahead of my age general curriculum), because it was judged that I would be disadvantaged by only making friends with people that were 2 years older than me. And its possibly true. That's one of the big problems with either repeating or acceleration. Much of the school experience is one of socialisation and whlst as adults we can have friends of several years of age difference, even 1 year of development can be the world of difference. Personally, I dont think I learned very much at primary school at all - I was assessed with a reading age of 17 when I was 7. Actually, I did learn something - I was only bright at maths, not accelerated (to this day I have never learned my times tables properly). I was lucky in that I was never mistreated by any of the teachers (though was ignored by 1), and looking back I am sure I was a handful to teach - eg to make life more interesting I would do something like learn morse-code, then write my homework in that (during classtime since I finished all the activities early). The point is that you as a parent can do much to make your kids school lives more challenging for them, whether it be to have them learn another language (or three) to write their school notes in, enrol them in Mensa (which they will no doubt qualify for if they are gifted), encourage them in areas where they struggle (be it maths or sport or music).

Country Girl I did do everything that I could to make school more interesting for my children. I taught them strategies to make things more challenging and to help them cope and tried to provide what I could for them but but unlike you my children were treated unfairly by some teachers and it made them anxious, scared, worried and sick and when I complained, as my first formal complaint came, not after my children were educationally neglected as that happened from the word go, but after my daughter was bullied and humiliated one time too many by a teacher, the system turned on my children. The line was crossed. How can people not see a problem with that?

I could deal with my children learning nothing at school if they were treated kindly and with care as it is the public school system but to be bullied, put down and marked down so as to discredit them and do them harm is too much for the system to ask a parent to accept and say and do nothing.

Jolanda, you say your children are gifted and you have proof to this effect.

Do you think that your children are unique in being gifted or do you think that there are many others who are as well? Do you think that your children are being discriminated against because they are gifted?

I ask this because you seem very quick to dismiss other people's experiences and how they dealt with being far ahead academically at school than their peers. And I'm curious why you think that you and your children would be singled out, or do you think that other gifted children are also being discriminated against?

Anansi. I only say my children are gifted because they were identified intellectually gifted by registered psychologists. I had them tested because they were very unhappy and sick at school and a teacher friend suggested to me that my kids were very gifted and that is why there were so different and so far advanced. I didn’t even know gifted children existed before that time. Truth is that I hate that word gifted. It only ever causes problems.

There are a lot more mildly intellectually gifted children then what there are highly, exceptionally or profoundly gifted children. And even at the different level of giftedness they have different needs. My children fall into the highly/exceptionally gifted range and also possess very high emotional IQ's. My children have mixed with other gifted children some even with IQ's in the profoundly gifted range, but they have not come across too many children like them. They appear much more mature, responsible and sensible than even other gifted children their own age.

I do think that my children have been treated negatively because they are gifted. I don't think that it is necessarily personal as such for all concerned; for some I think it has more to do with a desire to not acknowledge the failures in the system and how the current set up of age to grade instruction is causing our children harm.

I know of two other students who have also been treated the same way. Documents received under FOI also show evidence of bias and misconduct. The parents lodged complaints, one took it all the way to the Ombudsman but they were told that their complaint had been closed and to give up. They are too scared to say anything further as their children, and the parents, have suffered enough.

Many gifted children are being treated unfairly. Mine were targeted so systematically and so many times because my children are that gifted and they clearly showed and verbalized the inadequacies and failures in the system and I dared speak out on their behalf and complain.

It still does not clarify, why you think that your children are discriminated against more than other children. What I'm driving at is, why are your children more deserving of special treatment than other children who do not fit the 'average' mold?

You claim high emotional IQ. With that it should be easy for your children to understand that the world is not made up of one kind of person and that they will necessarily have to adapt to those around them. Now as children and later when adults. This is when patience and tolerance is learned. The world will not treat them 'special', but will have higher demands of them. As it should be.

My daughter adapts her language, because she has found that not only teachers, but certainly her peers do not have her vocabulary. She is aware of not resorting to ridicule. An average IQ does not translate into an excuse to be a target of disrespect.

What I'm saying is that she has learned early on it is painful for a person to be put in a bad light pubicly,eg in front of a class. She's been a target herself and was bullied. It actually made her very aware of the sometimes precarious position of teachers. It taught her not to take another's bad behaviour personally.

By the way, she's 14 knows that she is going to do Chinese, Peace and Conflict Studies/Law. She made us track out to UQ to make sure she knows what she needs to do in order to get there.

She can't get why others think Shakespeare is difficult. She explains: only his grammar is different and he uses a big vocabulary.

Is school work boring? She says yes. I'm reminding her that to her it is easy and quickly dealt with. Leaving more time to pursue other interests. If only others children were so lucky.

Anansi I never asked for 'special treatment" for my children. On the contray I asked for them to be treated like everybody else i nrelation to applications for school placement. It was the 'special treatment that created the problems as it didn't involve doing what is in the best interest of my children. Every child should have the right to be treated fairly and with respect. Every child should have the right to learn at school.

Manipulating students test marks to discredit them and deny them opportunties and putting them down in front of their peers and humiliating them is wrong no matter which way you look at it. My children do not have a problem with their peers, they are respected by their peers. They have problems with the adults in the system who resent those who make the failures of hte system stick out and who speak out....

Why you would stick up for those who treat children unfairly and unjustly is beyond me.

You can probably seek review under the Education (School Administrative and Support Staff) Act. There is a section that justifies disciplinary action for misconduct. This Act will apply to 'teachers' because they a staff of the department. Your allegation should be made to the Director-General of NSW who will then take your action further.

Alternatively you can make a complaint on the DET website, which may or may not eventually end up with the Minister. Action may or may not then be taken. They will need to provide you reasons for their decision.

"Manipulating students test marks to discredit them and deny them opportunities and putting them down in front of their peers and humiliating them is wrong no matter which way you look at it" is a huge assertion to make and must be supported by substantial evidence, not just the clouded opinions of parents which may or may not be sufficient.

CW thank you for your post.

We have tried making formal complaints, even to the Director General, but the DET refuses to accept them or investigate them. They just say that enquiries have been completed and the matter is closed. They will not even accept fresh complaints in relation to our other children even though they are accompanied by documentary evidence in support.

Problem is that they just send our complaints to those whom we allege are responsible and they present lies that are just accepted on face value even though the evidence doesn't support what they say. They use the excuse of computer error in relation to some discrepancies and others they just totally ignore.

I give you my word that I would not make allegations of this serious nature if I did not have substantial documentary evidence to support the allegations. The problem is that the DET never looks at what the complainant presents, they only ever take into consideration what is said at their end.

Yes my allegations are serious so one would imagine that they should be investigated as per policy and procedure require - not just ignored and covered up. We are taking the DET to the ADT to get them to produce evidence of the 'so called' investigation that they say cleared the DET staff of misconduct because documents produced under FOI clearly show that they are not telling the truth. Of that I give you my word.

I guess that comes down to how far you want to take it. If changing schools is an option, then that probably is the most efficient thing to do. Otherwise you are looking at more a legal recourse. I think the Administrative Disputes Tribunal is the next in line. This is the tribunal that handles admin disputes on the State level. Legally at least that is an option, and there are various grounds upon which you can seek review. This may be timely and costly however. Not falling into the same trap is probably the best way to go..