dott,

'One day you may have to face your teenager telling you they are in trouble..'

I may, and I think I have much better chance of a teenager coming to me than someone like yourself who seems to have a closed mind. As I said, if you show a simple black and white view of the world, and the child rightly assumes you have no taste for grey areas and that you deal in absolutes, you're the last person they're going to come to when in trouble.

'NO to drugs'
Good on you for saying no to drugs. But if you also say they aren't fun, or that everyone, or even most people who use drugs turns into a junkie, do you think a teenager will believe you?

'NO to violence '
Also good. I notice you haven't narrowed the problem down to one gender too. But as I said, to use the message that the only violence that occurs or is wrong is violence by men against women is damaging.

'NO to being co-erced into unwanted sexual encounters'
Good. But don't you think if you teach children their bodies are their own, rather than owned by their parents who control the pleasures their children are allowed to enjoy, that they are less likely to be able to be co-erced.

'NO to gratuitious display of bodies to satisfy the various lusts of corporations and anonymous consumers.'
See above. Much better to develop a sence of ownership and value a child has in their own body, which will make them show it only to whom they trust and has respect for them.

To Robert et al,

Thank god you lot get what I'm saying.

I liked...

'If you say that all illicit drugs are always bad when people find thats not the case they are likely to ignore the true stuff you have been saying as well.'

and

'the discussion is dominated by those with either no knowledge of the subject or those whose work is to treat the ones who go off the rails.'

To all:
"Part of this discussion will get down to what we each believe about peoples rights to make choices for themselves, what we believe about access to information".(rObert)

I wonder why these discussions seem to always get down to a personal attack of the writers character when opinions are in disagreeance? A "closed mind?" Goodness me, all these years, and I never knew!

We all have free choice. My teenage sons have free choice. They can choose to talk to me,(or not) about their lives and what they see and experience as they enter adulthood. I have empowered them to use the word "No" when they are being pressured (however/whomever by) to indulge in, or condone activities they feel are not safe or wise by peers, advertising or any other force...I have encouraged them to be able to speak their minds to me, to stand up for their beliefs, and human rights while retaining their self esteem and self respect. I advise that their choices must also be made with awareness of what that decision will have others, and on themselves.They will make mistakes, unwise decisions.That is their free choice. When that occurs,guarantee it will be me to whom they turn for advice and assistance. Actually, I only tonight had a big chat with one of their mates about drug issues they are facing. Your choice I said, fun it may have been, but look at the mess you are in...choose wisely - a successful life or "more or less" successful.

Antiseptic - you have my heartfelt wishes that your daliances do not further deteriorate your health. Maybe its time to say "no" and live to see a much healthier old age(harm minimisation) - it will be cheaper to maintain you, the tax burden on our youngsters to keep us baby boomers in our dotage is shaping up to be onerous. Another good reason to say "no" to violence, drugs, and all those numerous issues that create mental and physical havoc.

With that I am signing of this discussion. adieu

dott, that was not a personal attack. The comments which you had already made on this thread indicated that you hold a different view about access to information to the one I hold which will clearly impact on the way you see an issue like this. On a site such as this it's obvious that diferent posters will hold different values and different levels of allegance to those values. It's not a personal attack to point out that those differences will impact on how we see issues like this.

At the heart of this thread is the difference between staying on message vs trying to convey a more complete picture. I think that staying on message is more effective in the short term but fails over time as people learn more for themselves. Your posts on the drugs issue suggest that you think otherwise.

R0bert

dott:"it will be cheaper to maintain you, "

I don't and won't require anyone to "maintain" me, thanks.

In all of your "empowering them to say no", have you "empowered" them to say yes to anything? You see, one of the hallmarks of a human being is that we are intensely curious critters and that curiosity leads us to explore all sorts of aspects of the world around us.

I encourage my children to explore, to seek new experiences and new ways of doing or looking at things. I encourage them to use their own judgement of the situation they're in and the potential outcomes and to pursue more information if they feel unable to make the judgement. That way, they're much better equipped to deal with the changing circumstances of life than those I've met who were taught to "just say no", never trusting their own mind.

I doubt that either of them will have a problem with drug abuse, just as I've never been an abuser. I also suspect they'll try various drugs for themselves and make up their own minds as to whether they like the experience or not, assuming Big Sister hasn't got us all locked down tight by the time they're old enough. I hope She hasn't.

Personally, I have tried to make my life full of experiences and interesting problems rather than necessarily trying to make it a long one. My watchword has been "don't die wondering". I've achieved quite a lot and while there are more things I'd like to do, there's nothing I've set out to do to date that I've not had some success in, as much as you disparage modest success. I've also been fortunate to have had good health and some fantastic friends. My "dalliances" as you put it have added to the richness of my life as have the other risks I've taken.

I asked you in my last to tell me how I've caused anyone harm through my choices. You've chosen to "just say no" and not answer.

gotta comment on this:
extreme sports: check equipment,mates for back up, check out the terraine - risky - sure - fun - you bet. Try again? Why not?
Illegal drugs: no idea of whats in it, mates too bombed to help if trouble,no idea of the 'terraine' - risky - sure - fun - at first-(if lucky) try again - only if stupid.
Two things in this world cant go together - intelligence and illegal drug use or or 'legal drug' abuse.