Recent articles on OLO have illuminated to me the problems we create for our young. All in all, we insult their intelligence. We are so scared for them, we give them only one side of the story. And they can undoubtedly tell, so all our messages are laced with lies and hypocrisy.

Obi Wan once said 'Only a sith lord talks in absolutes'

So why do we cower away when faced with fear for our children. We deal in absolutes. Whenever a grey area arises, we want to stay 'On Message'. Don't muddy the waters, be consistent.

Drugs are bad

To violence against women Australia says no

Say no to sex

Nudity = sex and exploitation.

But to do this is to deny the full, open discussion of issues, and the chance to grow, and allow our children access to a source of trustworthy information. Who can they believe when their parents wont countenance that drugs can be fun, and often harm free, or that one's sexuality is their own and not for adults to dictate, that domestic violence exists only in the paradigm of male=violent controlling abuser, women=helpless victim.

To not allow sex education, and ban leaflets of information about drugs at school, to never discuss women's role in domestic disputes, gives a clear message that you are hiding information from children.

While attempting to be consistent, we are telling our children, if they're in trouble, if they've dared to experiment and use their free will, we wont be there to help pick up the pieces or help. We have shown a simple black and white view of the world, and the child rightly assumes we have no taste for grey areas and that we deal in absolutes. It's no wonder the suicide rate is so high.

As Yoda says, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. We need to let go of our fear, and provide a balanced, reliable, trustworthy source of information for our children to turn to.

Dear Usual Suspect,

To me as a parent what's always been important
was the content of my children's heart and mind,
or what is often described as character.

Basically, I saw my job was to raise a
decent human being.

Decency might sound like a modest ambition, but in
today's culture it's not so easy to achieve.
Every parent I know lives with the uneasy sense that
their children are growing up too fast.

I understand that these are difficult times for parents.
When you realize that your child is
just as likely to find a condom as a flower, in the park.

Like most parents I spent the first five years of my
children's lives dilingently preparing them to read.
To me, television is a medium that delivers information
in a flash - and then it's gone. Stories found in books,
by contrast, seep into our very being.

I believe that books are still the most memorable
artifact of childhood. They're not only good for
the child, they're a family resource beyond anything
that any medium has to offer.

I tried to help my children learn right from wrong,
and to know that sometimes there is a decision to
be made in the middle.

I know that my children, growing up were facing
tough choices and complicated situations. I tried
to instill in them the basics, like respect, loyalty,
and a sense of fair play.

Only time will tell if I succeeded.

Our role as parents, as I've said in other posts is
not to protect our children from the truth,
but to protect them from something less than the truth.

Well said to both of you.I see my role as a parent as being one of the trusted sources for my kids, which means I go out of my way to be as balanced as possible in my answers to their questions. Sometimes that means I have to step back a little from some of my own strongly held opinions and seek to explain them. It can be a challenge.

It seems to me that many of our politicians, commentators, journalists, "experts" in various fields are rarely so committed to an impartial presentation of the facts as they know them. They subscribe to a "constructionalist" view of society that allows them to manipulate their stories in the interest of "constructing" an outcome. This is what is meant by "staying on message". While I don't disagree with the basic thesis that society is constructed by its participants, I see a great deal of dishonesty and misinformation put about as fact by those who are seeking to change the nature of our culture to various ends. Goebbels spoke of the power of a "big lie" and how important it is to maintain the fiction once uttered and many of our leaders and opinion-makers seem to have been avid students.

I have some hope that I can influence my children to think critically about the information presented to them as fact. If it cannot be reconciled with things they already know, there is a fair chance it has been either fabricated or skewed in such a way as to push a particular barrow and should be evaluated on that basis.

Foxy > Awesome , well thought post

Great contributions, I thought I'd get a quite different reaction. Actually I thought I'd just get Gibo and co banging on about the only true morality and such.
Hey Foxy, I realy agree with your ideas about books. I think they are essential for linear thinking. Have you read 'Amusing Ourselves to Death'. I really loved it. It discusses how the media of communication inherently influences the conversations that are carried out over it.

Antiseptic,

'think critically about the information presented to them as fact'. I agree. It is infinately more useful than hiding away material that you believe you can 'protect' them from, by banning Dolly magazine or some such rubbish.

Perhaps, usual suspect, you can advise me of exactly WHAT DRUGS are fun and harmless?

dott,

I said drugs CAN be fun, and often harm free. All 'recreational' drugs are fun, or else why would people take them, and risk prosecution and pay lots of money for them? Most drugs and harmless used in moderation. There are risks involved, as there are risks involved in many enjoyable activities. But on the whole most episodes of drug use result in no lasting harm

Usual suspect: Recreational drugs are neither safe nor "fun" for the many whose lives are harmed by them. Ask the parents of those who have died, whose kids live an awful addicted existence. Admit to drug use and your chances of getting a decent job are axed. Take drugs and next thing you are stealing from mates, lying to friends and family.Making mistakes at work - losing jobs.
Illicit drugs destroy the brain.Fun for a few hours perhaps, if you survive, not so funny the after effects.

There should be NO tolerance for illicit drug taking - no tolerance for illicit drug pushing. If you feel that is is OK, that there is a 'grey area' when it is OK, then I can only believe that you also think that there is an acceptable level of violence against women, against children and against men too - hey guess what - alot of violence is AS A RESULT of drug taking.
Tobacco, a legal drug causes so much misery and illness and financial strain.
The inability to say "no" to sex - is often as a result of illicit drugs, spiked drinks, too much legal alcohol or addiction necessitating prostitution for males and females.
I have read many of your posts and given you some credit in the past. Sorry, never again.
One day you may have to face your teenager telling you they are in trouble, or deal with the aftermath of a friends death and then I hope that your views will change.
I will forever stay on these messages to my children and adults I encounter:
NO to drugs
NO to violence
NO to being co-erced into unwanted sexual encounters
NO to gratuitious display of bodies to satisfy the various lusts of corporations and anonymous consumers.

dott, I've just had a small glass of wine. I do that a couple of nights a week. I've never been drunk, always made sure I'm way under the limit if I'm going to drive (or generally don't drink at all when I know that I'll be driving later). Some medical advice suggests thats good for my health.

That glass of wine would be illegal in some parts of the world (an illicit drug) yet used the way I used it was harmless and fun. I've got no plans to go steal from a mate, lie to any friends or go bash someone.

I've chosen to avoid the risks of drungs other than alcohol, caffine paracetamol and medically prescribed drugs but have taken part in other activities with risks associated with them. The world is not always black and white.

R0bert

Robert. the drugs that "usual suspect" refers to are those that "risk prosecution and (people) pay lots of money for them" - ie illegal.
Lets not cloud the subject of drug taking with such statements as " oh I have a glass of wine now and then" - a glass of wine in this country is not illegal, but causing damage due to binge drinking is. Caffine paracetamol and medically prescribed drugs (for the intended recipient) are not illegal.Caffine and sugar are abused - look at the obesity epidemic, addiction to caffine drinks - many laced with sugar causing rotten teeth as well.I know a bloke who drank nothing but diet cola. Ruined his kidneys.Heath Ledger died from abuse of 'legal' drugs.

In today's society when the statement is made " drugs are bad" it is referring to illegal drugs or abusive use of legal 'drugs'.

Ask a Salvation worker what they think of this issue, ask the parent of a drug addicted child, or a person who has been bashed by an ice addict - or a family who has been torn apart by alcohol abuse.

Maybe society should be more 'black and white' about issues. Drug and alcohol services try to do just that. Draw the line - give our kids guidelines and adhere to them ourselves.

No to illegal drugs and abuse of legal drugs.
No to violence. full stop.
No to co-erced sexual activity
No to exploitation of human bodies in any manner.

Anything less is minimising and clouding the harm that is done to those who have not been empowered to use the word "no", along withthe harm to their families/friends/workmates/strangers.

dott, I don't see it as clouding the issue, rather illistrating the point. Alcohol when misused does enormous harm but when used appropriately is a good thing. It seems to be a judgement call regarding the risks and current social/religious values if a particular drug is illegal or not. As I pointed out alcohol is banned some places and in some situations. Our society currently allows that drug but not all societies do.

I'm of the view that most people make better choices with the correct information than when they discover the party line is flawed. If you say that all illicit drugs are always bad when people find thats not the case they are likely to ignore the true stuff you have been saying as well. Black and white is about imposing values on others rather than allowing them to make informed decisions for themselves.

Did you follow the contraception debate on one of the abortion threads recently. Some abstenance proponents things it clouds the issue to give kids a plan "B", to tell them about contraception and that the message should just be abstenance. Kids taught that way on average start sexual activity earlier than kids given a comprehensive sex education. They are more likely to have an unplanned pregnancy and more likely to seek an abortion. Staying on message in that case is counter productive and I suspect that would also be the case with illicit drugs.

Part of this discussion will get down to what we each believe about peoples rights to make choices for themselves, what we believe about access to information.

I don't believe that we equip people to make good choices about drug usage by presenting a one sided view of drugs.
I agree with you about violence if I'm reading your comment appropriately.
Agreed on no coerced sexual activity but I don't think that sex should be singled out, people should as far as practical be free of all coercion.
No to exploitation of human beings but humans should be free to make choices about what they do with their bodies.

R0bert

Dott, I've mentioned on another thread that I've been smoking marijuana more or less regularly since I was in my late teens and I'm now 45. It's never been a legal drug in that time and at one stage here in Qld the people I purchased it from were risking many years in jail for supplying it to me.
In that time I've not been forced into crime, I have tried other "harder" drugs such as LSD, cocaine, psilocybin ("magic mushrooms") and amphetamines, but I've never been tempted to try heroin. I've not become addicted to any of the things I've tried although I have seen a couple of cases of what may be incipient addiction to amphetamines. I used to smoke cigarettes, but gave them up about 10 years ago.I've not drawn the dole since I was about 22 and I've been more-or-less successfully self-employed since 2000.

Please tell me what harm I have caused to be done by my use of drugs? I recognise that I may have damaged my lungs through both cigarette and marijuana smoking, but otherwise?

The trouble with the so-called "drug debate" is that there the laws have made it very risky for anyone who uses one of the controlled substances to speak out in defence of what they do, since they risk having the police turn up and getting charged with possession. therefore, the discussion is dominated by those with either no knowledge of the subject or those whose work is to treat the ones who go off the rails. There is a huge amount of disinformation peddled in the name of "helping" and anyone who objects is easily categorised as "just a druggie" or worse, as someone who wants to kill others simply to make a profit.
Prohibition doesn't and never has worked. Legalisation and harm-minimisation do work. Ask yourself why we as a society have chosen one over the other.

dott,

'One day you may have to face your teenager telling you they are in trouble..'

I may, and I think I have much better chance of a teenager coming to me than someone like yourself who seems to have a closed mind. As I said, if you show a simple black and white view of the world, and the child rightly assumes you have no taste for grey areas and that you deal in absolutes, you're the last person they're going to come to when in trouble.

'NO to drugs'
Good on you for saying no to drugs. But if you also say they aren't fun, or that everyone, or even most people who use drugs turns into a junkie, do you think a teenager will believe you?

'NO to violence '
Also good. I notice you haven't narrowed the problem down to one gender too. But as I said, to use the message that the only violence that occurs or is wrong is violence by men against women is damaging.

'NO to being co-erced into unwanted sexual encounters'
Good. But don't you think if you teach children their bodies are their own, rather than owned by their parents who control the pleasures their children are allowed to enjoy, that they are less likely to be able to be co-erced.

'NO to gratuitious display of bodies to satisfy the various lusts of corporations and anonymous consumers.'
See above. Much better to develop a sence of ownership and value a child has in their own body, which will make them show it only to whom they trust and has respect for them.

To Robert et al,

Thank god you lot get what I'm saying.

I liked...

'If you say that all illicit drugs are always bad when people find thats not the case they are likely to ignore the true stuff you have been saying as well.'

and

'the discussion is dominated by those with either no knowledge of the subject or those whose work is to treat the ones who go off the rails.'

To all:
"Part of this discussion will get down to what we each believe about peoples rights to make choices for themselves, what we believe about access to information".(rObert)

I wonder why these discussions seem to always get down to a personal attack of the writers character when opinions are in disagreeance? A "closed mind?" Goodness me, all these years, and I never knew!

We all have free choice. My teenage sons have free choice. They can choose to talk to me,(or not) about their lives and what they see and experience as they enter adulthood. I have empowered them to use the word "No" when they are being pressured (however/whomever by) to indulge in, or condone activities they feel are not safe or wise by peers, advertising or any other force...I have encouraged them to be able to speak their minds to me, to stand up for their beliefs, and human rights while retaining their self esteem and self respect. I advise that their choices must also be made with awareness of what that decision will have others, and on themselves.They will make mistakes, unwise decisions.That is their free choice. When that occurs,guarantee it will be me to whom they turn for advice and assistance. Actually, I only tonight had a big chat with one of their mates about drug issues they are facing. Your choice I said, fun it may have been, but look at the mess you are in...choose wisely - a successful life or "more or less" successful.

Antiseptic - you have my heartfelt wishes that your daliances do not further deteriorate your health. Maybe its time to say "no" and live to see a much healthier old age(harm minimisation) - it will be cheaper to maintain you, the tax burden on our youngsters to keep us baby boomers in our dotage is shaping up to be onerous. Another good reason to say "no" to violence, drugs, and all those numerous issues that create mental and physical havoc.

With that I am signing of this discussion. adieu

dott, that was not a personal attack. The comments which you had already made on this thread indicated that you hold a different view about access to information to the one I hold which will clearly impact on the way you see an issue like this. On a site such as this it's obvious that diferent posters will hold different values and different levels of allegance to those values. It's not a personal attack to point out that those differences will impact on how we see issues like this.

At the heart of this thread is the difference between staying on message vs trying to convey a more complete picture. I think that staying on message is more effective in the short term but fails over time as people learn more for themselves. Your posts on the drugs issue suggest that you think otherwise.

R0bert

dott:"it will be cheaper to maintain you, "

I don't and won't require anyone to "maintain" me, thanks.

In all of your "empowering them to say no", have you "empowered" them to say yes to anything? You see, one of the hallmarks of a human being is that we are intensely curious critters and that curiosity leads us to explore all sorts of aspects of the world around us.

I encourage my children to explore, to seek new experiences and new ways of doing or looking at things. I encourage them to use their own judgement of the situation they're in and the potential outcomes and to pursue more information if they feel unable to make the judgement. That way, they're much better equipped to deal with the changing circumstances of life than those I've met who were taught to "just say no", never trusting their own mind.

I doubt that either of them will have a problem with drug abuse, just as I've never been an abuser. I also suspect they'll try various drugs for themselves and make up their own minds as to whether they like the experience or not, assuming Big Sister hasn't got us all locked down tight by the time they're old enough. I hope She hasn't.

Personally, I have tried to make my life full of experiences and interesting problems rather than necessarily trying to make it a long one. My watchword has been "don't die wondering". I've achieved quite a lot and while there are more things I'd like to do, there's nothing I've set out to do to date that I've not had some success in, as much as you disparage modest success. I've also been fortunate to have had good health and some fantastic friends. My "dalliances" as you put it have added to the richness of my life as have the other risks I've taken.

I asked you in my last to tell me how I've caused anyone harm through my choices. You've chosen to "just say no" and not answer.

gotta comment on this:
extreme sports: check equipment,mates for back up, check out the terraine - risky - sure - fun - you bet. Try again? Why not?
Illegal drugs: no idea of whats in it, mates too bombed to help if trouble,no idea of the 'terraine' - risky - sure - fun - at first-(if lucky) try again - only if stupid.
Two things in this world cant go together - intelligence and illegal drug use or or 'legal drug' abuse.