More than one contributor has said lately that all we mostly do here is push our own political ideas, is this true?
It is not surprising that we talk politics but is it even near excursively?
OLO is also Australian politics and we are bound to see others thoughts in print but too much politics?
It is true that we each have a point of view even a side we are welded to but I have seen such people take their own side to task here too.
Just maybe we talk as much about other things as we do politics and just maybe some are unimpressed that we have different views than theirs.
I believe the old fashioned idea we should not talk religion or politics is so we may not learn the truth.

Dear Belly,

I was always taught not to discuss
three things with other people,
religion, politics, and sport.
They were considered to be contentious
subjects.

I was also taught - don't rock the boat.

Did I listen to those teachings?

Of course not.

I find that discussing various topics is the
way you broaden your own outlook,
you learn and grow.

Many times I've been convinced I was
right in my way of thinking - only
to be presented by someone else's
different outlook that challenged my
point of view and made me re-think
what I had orginally been so sure of.

And now I'm no longer so sure of anything
at all. Perhaps it a sign of maturity -
I don't know.

Or maybe its simply that as I grow older,
I am beginning to realize just how little
I actually know.

As for pushing my own political wheelbarrow ?
Well when you do that, you've got to be
careful not to lose the only wheel that it has.

There are powerful agendas behind events and people that are rarely if ever brought to light or questioned. Most people do not question their subscription to ideology enough and are not interested in logic or reason. Instead they are ruled by their agendas far more than they care to admit..in fact they are imprisoned by them.

In light of steel's above post (which "on the surface" seems reasoned), I invite everyone to go to steel's last post on page 4 of the topic "Censors Win Out".

There, he launches a "political" attack based on his "political dogma".

Here's some charming ummmm..... "non"-political quotes from him:

"you are heavily socialist"

"you have deceitful intentions driven by greed for yourself and the agenda of those you closely support and parrot"

"you are picking your slogans off the scrapheap of your ideological agenda"

"Is it a socialist view of childhood"

"They (photographed nude kids) were spared psychological pain of societal abuse and our PB Rudd's disgusting attacks"

I really, really love this next one:

"It is actually you philips who are attacking and abusing children for your private fascist, socialist agenda"

Well, in light of steel's above words, maybe he should begin to question "HIS"........"subscription to ideology" (his words), and drop "HIS" political "agenda" (his word). Then he won't be "imprisoned by them" (his words).

After reading steel's post on this topic, and then coming upon his almost 100% politicised rant on the Censor topic (and elsewhere too), one has to wonder if coming on this site is just a game he plays to fill the void of an otherwise empty existence.

It comes down to the truth.

Such as

the 2001 election was not held as per the constitution

Citizenship is illegal, and not a federal responsibility

The Labor party and unions have hidden child sexual assualts and abuse.

Now my dad told me not to become a shop steward and he should have told me not to get into politics.

That way i could have been as ignorant as everybody else,

But Hey

Sometimes we have to stand up for what is right, and against those who in government tell us what to do, instead of them listening to their communities and acting as they should.

Look at NSW labor and unions, They hate the premeir, but

Suck up to Rudd and Combet, both who are supporting the power sell off.

So if you lot can talk truth things would be better for discussion.

"Truth" is good.

But the trouble with that is that one person's truth can be, and often is, another person's untruth.

For example, a Roman Catholic may believe he knows the truth about God..........but try selling that "truth" to a Jew (and vice versa).

Another example: John Howard believed he "truthfully" knew the way ahead for Australia. The trouble with that was, Kevin Rudd also knew the "truth" in that regard. One man's truth is another man's untruth.

Politics, religion, sport, art, music, fashion.....the list is endless, are NOT based on "truth". They are based on "opinion" and "belief".

"Truth" only applies to things that can be proven. For example, nobody can deny that 4+4=8: That equation stands separate from belief and opinion.

Ah Philips

Yes the truth is something that can be verified.

What i have said can be.

Constitutional debates
lindberg petition

Its all there.

So really it is the suppresion of the truth that treats the people like mushrooms.

Only tell them what they want them to hear.

I have the truth, and i will keep fighting for that.

Dear Tapp,

If yu've got the "truth" as you say you do,
then you're one of the fortunate
people.

I find that for me - life is an ongoing process
of learning - and I'm still discovering the "truth"
bit by bit. Especially about myself.
I'm certainly not the same person I was when I was
so much younger. Getting an education, having children,
raising a family, working, inter-acting with my peers,
family and friends - all this changes a person, life around us changes and impacts
on us. As the saying goes, "the only constant is change."

I look at our elderly parents, caring for them and their
problems also adds to the way I view life.
I admire their stamina and perseverance despite the difficulties
both physical and mental that they have to put up with.

Anyway, if you're content with knowing what you know,
I'm happy for you.

Enjoy mocking my comments, phillips, because that's all you can do. Go ahead and question my agenda. You can do so freely and I have never claimed otherwise. Please repeat your thoughts here.

Belly “I believe the old fashioned idea we should not talk religion or politics is so we may not learn the truth.”

I think there was a caveat on that proposal, something to do with when engaging in polite conversation (after dinner etc).

I do not think it was to be considered am absolute maxim.

As an opinion forum, I would expect people to “push their own barrow”, politically, ethically or on any other yardstick of values.

Personally, for me politics is not simply about truth and untruth, I demand truth in all things but politics is about how people seek to resolve issues and challenges (the art of the possible).

Here is where the divide of opinion lies, not with the what is truth but the how should things be done.

Simple examples,

some believe a carbon tax to be a good thing and essential to the future of the national economy. I do not.

Some believe a wealthy society is only achieved by doing everything to ensure equal outcomes. I do not

Some believe the government would be more effective if it did only the minimum rather than stuff up what it and its bureaucrats have no competency in and simply waste tax payers funds to follow pipe dreams and quixotic windmills – and I agree with them.

It is rarely the “what”, invariably the “how” and the “should we anyway”.

That gives lots of stuff for us all to express lots of opinion on and to impassion ourselves and maybe even inspire others to a value we, each as individuals, hold.

I write to promote my ideas !
For me the forum is an other way, an other opportunity, an other tool to fight for my ideas! Most times I do not read the main article at all!
I read the title and I grab the opportunity!
My time is very limited, my English is bad but if I think I can promote my ideas I WILL DO IT!

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Foxy:"Or maybe its simply that as I grow older,
I am beginning to realize just how little
I actually know."

My dad's favourite saying when confronted with one of the mysteries of life was "the more I know, the more I know I don't know". I agree with him and you.

One of the reasons I like to participate in forums such as this is that it gives me a chance to reflect my own views from the sometimes warped mirror of others' perceptions, often leading to a new view on something I thought I understood and always causing me to make the best effort I can to obtain a clear image from the fuzz.

Of course, some of those mirrors are too cracked to return any kind of meaningful image, but the exercise of trying is still worthwhile.

Belly, I think we discuss politics no more or less than we would in our lives. My own friendships are nearly all with people who can hold an intelligent discussion on political issues and not just regurgitate the current propaganda from whichever side of the Parliament they favour. I find that those people unwilling to discuss the issues of our society are, on the whole, limited in the other topics they think about as well. Long live political discourse!

Belly, Foxy, Col and Antiseptic well said.

I find those who come here mostly to instruct and promote rather than to learn have little to teach that I value. The wisdom I've found her comes mostly from those who have minds willing to consider other idea's, to put aside their pre-conceptions and weight their beliefs against alternate viewpoints. Sometimes they hold existing viewpoints firmly but they are considered viewpoints. At other times ideas are still being very actively explored. Rarely do I find anything worth learning from those who think that they have "truth", those who have no interest in learning.

R0bert

Yup, it's all good.

One of the most exciting aspects of a forum like this - to me, anyway - is that moment when you rush to express your view, dash off a couple of scintillating paragraphs, then suddenly ask yourself, "do I really believe that?"

Then delete the post.

And have another think.

Agreed - for the most part anyway. To me, OLO provides a forum where I get to express ideas that I probably wouldn't volunteer publicly all that often in the small country town where I live, and also where I am exposed to ideas that I wouldn't otherwise generally read or hear.

As Pericles said - it's all good, really. And I'm delighted to learn that I'm not the only one who writes comments and then deletes them in entirety on occasions. I always feel strangely virtuous when I do that ;)

It is people like robert who dismiss the fact that when i say the truth this is based on fact.

This is not what i am told or how to think.

Those who do not wish to find the truth will just be like robert and dismiss it.

The heiner affair FACT

Unconstitutional 2001 election FACT

Citizenship is a load of federal bull FACT

These facts can be found in constitutional debates and lindberg and senate papers.

FACT

If you believe the FACTS are wrong prove it as even rudd hasnt taken me for defamation of himself the labor party or unions.

FACT

I have no need to push a wheelbarrow as i will keep going with the truth/facts.

Tapp, even in constitutional law, law that's set in stone, opinion plays a major role. Seeing anything in life as unalterable fact, shows a mind that is not open. If we are incapable of admitting we're wrong, incapable of change, then our full learning capacity will never be reached.

samsung, "Seeing anything in life as unalterable fact, shows a mind that is not open."

No, it usually shows a mind capable of distinguishing fact from fiction. Opinions are worthless at the minimum and destructive at the maximum, if they do not address fact, or at least follow simple logic and reason.

samsung>" If we are incapable of admitting we're wrong, incapable of change, then our full learning capacity will never be reached."

Perhaps you should read your post just now in the Censors win out thread. You are in dire need of such advice, but I suspect with a high degree of certainty that your opinions are strongly partisan.

My point, "seeing things as unalterable fact shows a mind that is not open", has just been proven by steel's post.

I rest my case.

tapp, I gather from your response that you don't consider yourself in the group who "hold existing viewpoints firmly but they are considered viewpoints" but rather one who is unwilling to learn or question. Your choice, I did not have you in mind when I made that post but if you think the shoe fits then thats ok.

If you want me or others with a similar mindset to pay attention to the contents in your wheelbarrow you might try and convince us that the contents are important and that your opinions are considered enough to warrant devoting attention and effort to.

Claims that what you express are facts rather than opinions on such contentious issues as the constitutional validty of elections when those views do not appear to be widely supported don't inspire me to look further. Building a case, citing worthwhile references and demonstrating the significance of your claims may.

Pericles, CJ I've been known to write posts in the heat of the moment and have tried to delay hitting the post button for a while if it looks like a post which I may later be embarased by. I useful technique sometimes.

R0bert

Pericles
"then suddenly ask yourself, "do I really believe that?" Then delete the post."
I never read my text before I post it!
Few times when I read it I deleted it and I did not post any text!

Robert
these are 2 parts out of your post.

I find those who come here mostly to instruct and promote rather than to learn have little to teach that I value.

Rarely do I find anything worth learning from those who think that they have "truth", those who have no interest in learning.

This is why i replied.
For those who just laugh at me that is ok, what i have learnt is research is valuable, and from this comes a greater understanding.

Everything i have said is fact and the constitutional debates are the reasoning behind the constitution.

And the australian labor peodophile party well even belly knows that truth.

It comes down to the media and what the people are to be told.

They are kept in the dark and fed magic mushrooms just to keep them happy while ignorant of the fact of what political parties,unions,MP's and media are doing around them.

I will see if i can get an article posted as explanation using facts will take quite a bit.

tapp I would be interested in reading an article explaining what some of the constitutional arguments are about. I've never picked up on just what you are pushing in that wheelbarrow nor seen enough to warrant taking the time to try and research it for myself but if you can convince me that it's worth the effort I'll probably do so.

If it's important tell us why.

As for labor pollies and little children - if you want the other issue to get a fair hearing you'd be better to leave that one to a different article unless it is overwhelmingly crucial to the main point. It would be easy to imagine everything else being overwhelmed in discussion of that point.

R0bert

While I am the proud owner of an ALP wheel barrow I think it is more like a shopping trolley.
Likely if it sees a need to dart of down another isle or in another direction.
My party and yours never gets it right always.
We do learn by talking issues out and sometimes we change our ideas.
It is quite true,in NSW the party has self destructed.
No way around it, the chances of this leadership team winning a raffle even if they bought every ticket is zero.
The clerk of the courses horse is more likely to win the Melbourne Cup.
But here I am free to say it.
At a branch meeting?
It is healthy to question our leaders, every party's leaders but lets be sure we understand the questions we ask.