Dickie, check your teeth. Notice the canine's? Humans are designed to be omnivores. If you choose not to eat meat, then good luck to you, but I take issue with you denigrating a choice that biology has built into us - to eat meat as well as vegetable matter.

Nature will starve animals in the millions during flood and drought, although in modern countries humanity often intervenes. Nature burns to death animals caught in bushfires, although our modern fire-fighting techniques undoubtedly save millions more than would otherwise survive. A lion bringing down its prey isnt really a pretty sight. Sharks biting living fish in half isnt pleasant to watch. But this is nature and also the act of animals feeding themselves. At the end of the day we are only more sophisticated animals. We still have to feed ourselves and the process of doing so is usually no more pleasant than any other creature. However thanks to our intelligence and development, some of us are able to hide from the day to day realities of providing food sources. Particularly in Australia our urbanisation has been so great that many people in our cities have no contact with the production of the food and other consumables that they use.

Seems they have gone into kitchens Nicky .. very strange. Maybe RSPCA finally confiscated those computers. It was only a matter of time.

I little off topic but, has anyone heard the latest radio ads against intensively farmed pigs? Very well done.

Hi again all

Country Gal, I think you should perhaps note the difference in the development of canine teeth in dogs, for example, and humans. Human canine teeth are not at all developed. There are countless humans who are living proof that we do not need meat to survive.

PF, I sponsored some of the radio ads, and was very happy to see (hear?) them. Was I right about Burke and the "humane labelling" option? I thought I read somewhere that he basically decided it wasn't going to happen and if people cared enough they should do their own research (sucks, doesn't it?). I had thought HSI really got somewhere with that, with support from Voiceless.

You could well be right about those computers. I hear that anyone who ever made the mistake of contacting PALE, at their exhortation, to work for the Muslims for their slaughterhouses, had to almost leave the country to escape them. And disagreeing with them simply brought on "the lawyers".

Cheers
Nicky

Country Gal

Think of the gorilla.

Gorillas’ teeth as "canines" is confusing, because it wrongly implies "carnivore."

But the gorilla is vegetarian and eats mostly fruit and other vegetation and perhaps grubs and insects.

The two pointy teeth come in handy for ripping the skin off fruit, etc. to get at the inner part of it.

Their canines are used as weapons (against each other or predators) and also for crushing hard plant material like bamboo so large canine teeth are not always indicative of a carnivore.

The muscle mass and strength of a gorilla also proves false, the propaganda that we need to eat meat to obtain enough protein to build muscle.

"A lion bringing down its prey isnt really a pretty sight." No indeed not Country Gal but it is what I would describe as a "clean" kill.

The prey, prior to being devoured by a lion, would not have been incarcerated for its entire life, shackled, hog-tied, suspended from ceilings, stabbed, artificially inseminated, vivisected, castrated, beaten, debeaked or boiled alive.

Therefore, we can safely assume that the prey did have a life free from the terrors that modern-day farm animals experience.

Greetings PF. Long time no hear.

Dickie states:

"You are known on this thread for arguing against the reasoning of those who object to animal cruelty."

Yep. But I really am quite supportive of most efforts to remedy animal cruelty, whether you believe that or not. I think the RSPCA for instance, do one hell of a job under trying circumstances. I know people who've worked in the DNR and were incredibly devoted to animal welfare, working in service of native species and yes, were involved in pest control, though they were working on a variety of projects, all aimed at conservation.
Of course, people even tangentially involved in pest control often cop abuse. Some (I'll concede, not all) of whom make a habit of attacking those who have worked in the types of conservation they don't 'approve of'.
All too often, (again, not always) it's based on their suppositions and their own vegan-based morality and to hell with the more complex considerations, or respecting that people are involved with these things because they believe it's right.

I simply have issues with people who place themselves on a moral pedestal for whatever reason, and denigrate the choices made by others. I also dislike that when these attacks are made on farmers, very rarely are efforts made to state it's only a minority who engage in cruelty. More often it's fuelled by this holier-than-thou, take-no-prisoners, the-farmers-are-the-enemy vegan attitude.

The kind of attitude that uses phrases like 'rotting flesh.'

(Nicky, your point that it's not an either-or proposition is precisely what I'm saying and I agree wholeheartedly).

I object to comments such as the 'rotting flesh' one, because I view them has a not-so-subtle attack on the legitimate choices by Australia's omnivorous majority. Despite claims that you don't object to this, I don't believe you, because of this choice of words. Were you able to state that you disagree with meat-eaters, instead of the 'rotting flesh' commentary, I might be less critical. As it stands, it sounds like denigration to me.

So tar me as hostile to the cause of animal rights if you wish. I know otherwise.

Hey guys - can we please not get into the vegetarian/vegan argument that we have all been through SO many times with PALE? I don't know that it's necessarily about walking a higher moral ground either.

TRTL, I take on board what you've said, but Dickie's point is also valid; that predators in the wild kill (generally!) quickly and cleanly, and their "prey" have not usually been brutalized in their short, wretched lives. In that, I think the human species really is right up there. Dickie is also quite right about herbivorous animals also having canine shaped teeth, and while I acknowledge that the majority of Australians (including those who are members of animal advocacy groups) are meat eaters, my own view is that I don't need meat to be healthy. Having said that, my family, friends and colleagues are meat eaters.

I do think campaigns about intensive farming are both important and worthwhile. PF has explained in detail on other threads the benefits of free-range pig farming, and if we accept that this is true, then there can be no possible excuse for the intensive farming of pigs, who arguably suffer more than, say, dogs would in the same conditions because pigs are known to be more intelligent than dogs, as well as being highly sensitive and clean animals who are forced to live in appalling conditions in their own filth, unable to move.

Likewise battery hens and meat chickens. I have friends who have entered battery farms and filmed the conditions, and I have some hens who were rescued from these shocking places. The condition they were in when we got them home said it all.

Let's agree to disagree about meat eating, morality, and who has the best horror stories, and see what ideas can be found to address the real cruelty issues to farm animals. Then maybe we can move forward.

Cheers
Nicky