I doubt many of us will defend the man, yet someone is doing just that.
Such as he have always existed sometimes put in place by the British or Americans.
Of late propped up by China, as are the dreadful people in the country we once called Burma.
Why? it looks so easy the pain he inflicts on his own country so very bad removing him an act full of justice.
South Africa a nation built on a fight for freedom despite its heated words of late has turned a blind eye to the deaths of so many people and stands convicted of a crime against them supporting this mad criminal.
So very many Robert Mugabe's have been propped up by nations wishing to use the pain of their victims you just have to ask why we even bother with a UN.
And why we pretend humanity matters more than power to so very many.

Mugabe has made his own grave and the people have allowed him to do it for the whole of the country.
Not all of the people but most.
The christian churches sent out the missionaries and they got mostly rejected and much of christian revival failed. The demon powers ended up with country and power over the people.
Mugabe made it worse a few years back by telling the witchdoctors they could do what they wanted to do...and so it happened that the evil spirit powers grew and now bloodbath is on the horizon.
We need to pray against Mugabe and the demon powers.
Maybe the UN might also wake up and send in the troops and save the nation.
You know why Africa is called the dark continent?
Because all of the fallen spirit activity the people open themselves up too.

Dear Belly,

We can't even begin to imagine the horrors
that these tyrants inflict on their own people.
You'd think the world would learn something
from the terrors of the past - to not allow
people like Mugabe to stay in power.

In the UN charter there is the seventh principle
that says the UN won't interfere in a country's
'internal affairs.' Surely this could be amended -
when the 'internal affairs,' are responsible for
the destruction of human lives?

I listened to Nelson Mandela's speech on television
last night and hoped that something will be done,
and soon.

Belly – Its all very simple you see it’s a case of the loopy left triumphing again! The same can be said for the perils of Burma and the horn of Africa.

We can talk all we like in the mean time away from the camera hundreds of millions die and suffer due to the inactions of countries like Australia.

The reason most of Africa says nothing especially south Africa is because Mugabe helped south Africa fight those “nasty” white people. So now they have a “debt” to him. The ANC and Mugabe are like 2 peas in the pob!

It sure is a shame that Mugabe is not white because if he was you would have the likes of the do gooder hordes like Bob Geldof, Oprah Winfrey and countless others jumbing up and down about racism. But alas he is just another black guy inflicting suffering on millions of other black people so whats new?

The only person who would have the guts to do anything to alleviate the suffering of these people would be the likes of George Bush and John Howard. But we all saw what happened in Iraq when we went in there and in the process saved millions of lives and helped bring Iraq back onto the straight and narrow didn’t we. Critisim from every direction!!

Sadly the world is full of idiots and the idiots prefer wind bagging and empty gestures from cowardly politicians then people who actually go out there and risk there credibility to make this would a better place for all.

Suffer the little children!

East Times,

You are absolutely correct. The soft-left will whine about how awful it is that they have to watch mugabes thugs bash and kill supporters of Morgan Tsvangarai and the MDC. Once it stops being news they will forget it. The left has no answers to problems like this. Some people are even stupid enough to suggest that more "laws" would be useful.

There is nothing that can be done without exerting serious financial or military pressure on the regime. Financial pressure is an imprecise tool and much of the pressure will be passed on to the people of Zimbabwe who can least afford it. And military pressure is obviously a no go area for the soft-left. So instead of doing something about it, they form committees to discuss how awful the situation is. In this way they can register their disapproval and absolve themselves of the guilt of knowing they could help but are unwilling to do so.

What is truly ridiculous is that Mugabe's rein of terror is far less bloody than Saddam's repression of his people. Same with the Taliban, who were way worse than Zanu PF and the JOC.

There are no neat solutions without cost in these situations, but to do nothing, as the soft-left would have us do, is just not acceptable.

1 x 2000lb bomb at his next rally should do it. Someone tell me why they don't?. No one will miss him. No one will care.

Dear Paul,

You talk about the 'whining of the soft-left,' and point the finger at them. Then you mention the bloodiness of Saddam Hussein's regime...
Interesting.

So, just to jog your memory.

We had a situation where a $300 million
bribe to Saddam Hussein's regime became a tax deduction for the
AWB - approved by John Howard and under Mr Howard's laws. (Subsidised by Australia's hard working tax payers). The then treasurer, Peter
Costello explained rather quaintly, "Well we can't do anything about it."

I guess it depends on your political outlook - doesn't it?
Some can do no wrong, while others are accused of all sorts of things.
Politics is not filled with intrigue - is it?

I love posts like those from EasyTimes and PaulL truly,the idea that I, from the left have blood on my hands because of this murderer.
Can I highlight both your saviors have been in power ,total power for a very long time? why did they not fix it?
Who helped keep Saddam in weapons for his war in Iran?
Who kept Iran's dictator in power?
We humans should unite against these murdering dictators and the even worse power hungry puppet master country's that keep them in power.
I deify my lost in space Wil Robinson detractors to show me how the left, even the extreme truly loony left have kept such in power.
And tell me how we got Bush to do our bidding.
It is sad but true we together should be focused on getting such as Mugabe's supporters, those who kill and bash and those who profit from murder, to the hangman's platform but we are in truth in the hands of others national interests.

Dear Belly,

I really am amazed that people can't have non-partisan political discussions - without name calling or pointing fingers.

The point that I was trying to make in my previous post is - that
both sides of politics can be blamed for something, if you look closely enough.

As they say, "Power corrupts," and "Absolute Power, corrupts absolutely."

In a discussion, you have to dig deeper. Blaming is an easy thing to do. It's harder to come up with solutions.

I wish that we could lift the bar a bit in our discussions - and look
for solutions. We don't have to agree politically, but we don't have to resort to name calling either.

Belly,

The anti-war loonies ( who no doubt would have protested with “no blood for oil” placards during WW2) of the soft left have tied the hands of those who could do something about it. There can be no military intervention because if even the slightest thing went wrong the gov’t would find itself out on its ear.

You say >> “Can I highlight both your saviors have been in power ,total power for a very long time? why did they not fix it?”

You’re assuming an awful lot there Belly. Howard and Bush aren’t my saviours and I don’t sanctify them. And I definitely don’t deify them They may not have got it 100% right but at least they tried. On Bill Clintons watch 1,000,000 Rwandans were murdered, safe havens in Bosnia were overrun and whole villages of men massacred.

>> “Who helped keep Saddam in weapons for his war in Iran?”

So what?? You help someone out does that make their decisions yours for the rest of their life? Is it then impossible to disagree about anything?

>> “Who kept Iran's dictator in power?”

Who are you talking about? Ahmedinejhad and Kamanei?

Foxy

You say >> “We had a situation where a $300 million bribe to Saddam Hussein's regime became a tax deduction for the AWB”

It was an unpleasant incident, to be sure, but SO WHAT? Are you seriously trying to suggest that the Howard gov’t was trying to keep Saddam in power by supplying him with money? That’s just silly.

Idiots from the left offered themselves up as human shields to be used by Saddam to protect his missile batteries. Others pretended that the whole war was about lust for oil. It’s funny that the left hang on to these ideas of massive conspiracies in the face of the rather ordinary performance of Bush/Cheney.

I don’t pretend that Bush or Howard could do no wrong, I think they were both pretty ordinary, it’s just that the soft-left are so much worse.

Foxy if nothing else I must be true to the person I am.
Just as guilty as anyone else I believe the extremes damage our world.
That includes the extreme left.
I think however the thought the left or anti war are a reason for the many Mugabe's is quite stupid.
And I feel confident the host of such dictators are funded by both left and right.
PaulL you forgot the Shar of Iran, a western puppet who hurt his nation and helped hand it over to radicals who continue to do so.
Foxy however has one thing right.
Why can we fight to place blame for this horrible man on left or right?
Who of us would not agree he should be removed and face the courts for genocide?
If the would is ever to live in peace something like the United Nations must take action in such cases.
I have a question for posters in this thread , have any of you not shivered after seeing North Korean film of a brainwash suffering people?
A whole nation educated to love a monster? to never know the truth? the UN is useless surely?

Dear Paul,

May I suggest that you read the book,
"The New Rulers Of The World," by John Pilger.

In case you aren't aware, John Pilger is one
of the world's renowned investigating journalists
and documentary film-makers.

There's quite a bit in that book on
Saddam Hussein - which may be of interest to you.

Cheers.

Let’s get some facts straight Mugabe is not going anywhere! He has committed to many crimes and will spend the rest of his life in jail if he gives up power. He has a lot of hench men in the same boat with him so they wont be giving up power either. The only way to get this SOB out is to kick him out like we did with Saddam. As Paul said forming comities and agreeing to express collective outrage and then sending him a letter asking him nicely to give up power is as ridiculous as the people who purpose it to be a solution are. The only way is to use force!

There was a classic left wing article posted on OLO about a month ago about Afghanistan and how this woman “a refugee herself” was demanding Australia pull all it troops out of Afghanistan. I did post on this article to pour condemnation on the author for such and ignorant piece of writing but is was deleted by the administrator. This woman was waving the flag for the left and thus proving how totally ignorant they are and how they fail to see the big picture. For one thing she failed to take into account the hundreds of Australians who die every year from heroin over doses and the thousands which cause crimes from muggings to bank robbery to support their habit and then of course the hundreds of thousands which are affected directly or indirectly whether they be the victims themselves or family and friends of the addicts. And lets not talk about the cost to tax payers.

85% of all the Heroin in the world comes from Afghanistan is that not reason enough to stay there?

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=7462

Paul L you have taken the words right out of my mouth! Well said!

Foxy,

In case you didn't know, John Pilger is the epitome of the soft-left mindset. He has a massive political agenda which he pretends does not exist. He's basically a marxist with the sharp edges removed.

Critics of Pilger have coined the verb "to pilger",or "pilgerise" meaning "to present information in a sensationalist manner to reach a foregone conclusion.

Besides all that, I've read the book, thank you Foxy. However it was a waste of my time.

I again waste my time, trying to tell the very right the left is not to blame for Mugabe.
I too would like to see him and those who keep him in power, in prison forever.
And let it happen so even if it is war that removes him.

Belly,

Belly >> “Who of us would not agree he should be removed and face the courts for genocide?”

The thing that angers me and others is that Mugabe isn’t anywhere near as bad as Saddam Hussein. Yet there are many on the left who lambasted the coalition for having the nerve to suggest “regime change” was a reasonable course of action to take against Saddam. And many of these same people are now clamouring for someone to do something about Mugabe. Do they think getting rid of Mugabe would be cost free?

Belly >> “If the world is ever to live in peace something like the United Nations must take action in such cases.

The problem with the current makeup of the UN is that it allows dictators and anti-democrats to have a democratic say in the running of the organisation. Those countries have no place in the UN. Further, the fact that the Russians and the Chinese have veto power on the Security Council is ridiculous and has effectively neutered the organisation. Even the French have used their veto to pursue their attempts to become a more influential global power.

A Security Council seat should be extended only to (democratic) countries which are actually prepared to provide troops, with that countries voting weight determined by their total population vs troop commitment ratio. That way the UN has a standing army which can be committed if need be, and those who will actually provide the means have a greater say in the outcome.

Belly >> “I have a question for posters in this thread , have any of you not shivered after seeing North Korean film of a brainwash suffering people? A whole nation educated to love a monster? to never know the truth?”

Do you remember how many people laughed at Bush when he revealed his axis of evil? North Korea is ruled by a truly evil regime, without doubt. I’m not suggesting military action would be effective here, but China’s role in the Security Council has shielded North Korea and many others from well deserved opprobrium.

Is Robert Mugabe Zimbabwe's Idi Amin?

Dear Paul,

Thanks for responding to my post on Pilger.

No, I didn't know he was a Marxist.

I believe in reading as much as I can about any
given situation - be it Madeline Albright's book,
or Pilger's. Then deciding for myself.

As far as Pilger is concerned, I went on the
fact that he's twice won British journalism's
highest award, that of Journalist of the Year, for his
work all over the world, especially as a war correspondent.

For his documentary film-making, he's won France's Reporter sans
Frontieres, an American television Academy Award, an 'Emmy,'
and the Richard Dimbleby Award, given by the
British Academy of Film and Television Arts, for a
lifetime's factual broadcasting.

I'm not trying to be contentious here, but you must
admit, his credentials are impressive.

Of course, that doesn't make him right, is the point you're
making, and I respect that.

I do however feel that the more you know about a subject,
the better you can decide for yourself where the truth lies.

Paul L in my view some of your thoughts are extreme.
I proudly am from the left.
I too got conned by the weapons of mass destruction and at first thought we had no choice but to remove Saddam, I was wrong.
You overlook the nigh mare of Zimbabwe, the mass murders of Mugabe.
Have you forgotten Mugabe is a leftist?
Or that North Korea is communist?
Surely in trying to sell Americas worst ever president Bush to me you overlook his polling even in his own party?
Never forget some who walked in Mugabe's shoes in south America did so with sponsorship of America.
Some good things come from right left and center to think this is not true is extremism.
Some of my fellow travelers will take offense but the world must free north Korea Zimbabwe, and every slave nation at any cost.
And the world takes a step forward the day Bush leaves the white house

The only salvation Zimbabwe can expect is if tomorrow geologists declare they have found easy access to unlimited resources of gas and petroleum in the country.
Then suddenly you'll see one hell of a rush of countries all wanting to send in the troops to liberate the poor suffering people under that rogue-ape,Mugabe.

International politics is obscene and ugly.Hate it, Ugh-h-h!

socratease

Dear Belly,

I wonder if Zimbabwe had oil - would the US and UK
and their allies still do nothing about Robert Mugabe?

They went into Iraq to remove one dictator,
yet they're ignoring this monster.

It seems a bit of a double-standard here.

Dear Belly,

It seems that socratease and I posted
at the same time - with similar
thoughts.

And the saddest thing is you are both right.
We humans must confront the fact we matter less than power or money.
This mornings news says some African leaders want a government of national unity, they clearly have blood on their hands.
It is true that if the true government was able to lead Mugabe's murderers would start a war but what cost freedom?
Mugabe is not going to be the last leader to hide beneath Chinas shadow, in truth we should demand the games be canceled if they do not lean on him.

Socratease,

>> “The only salvation Zimbabwe can expect is if tomorrow geologists declare they have found easy access to unlimited resources of gas and petroleum in the country.

That’s just pathetic. You guys squeal like stuck pigs when we got rid of Hussein, who killed hundreds of thousands of his own people. Yet Mugabe has only killed 80 odd opposition supporters and you guys are beside yourselves

Don’t get me wrong I’m all for getting rid of Mugabe. It’s just funny that the squealers from the left weren’t too upset when Mugabe used his thugs to murder similar, or greater, numbers of white farmers, and scare the remainder off their land.

Tell me Socratease, Have they found oil or gas in Bosnia? NO? How about in Kososvo? No again, Well maybe they found oil and gas in Somalia?? Really? they didn’t find it their either? Well I just don't understand it at all. NOT!!

Your world weary cynicism is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

After the left’s protests over the two wars we have, who would be stupid enough to take on another.

My goodness - what a strange reaction from you Paul.
Socratease must certainly have pushed your buttons.

But name calling does not solve the problem. Nor using
words like "squealing," "pig," or "pathetic."
It still does not offer any solutions to the topic of this
thread - which is - Robert Mugabe, an 87 year old tyrant,
who's been in power for over 27 years...

Still, I suppose if the free world doesn't care about
Ethiopia, why should it care about Zimbabwe?

Cynical? I think Africans have a right to be.

I'm called a sick and tired Lefty by those who are frightened by the truths I expose.Well,let me expose another.
There is no such thing as the "free" world....There have been power blocks who have vested interests to control parts of the world for their own interest.
From the beginning there was the example of Kashmiris who compose 90% of the land were promised a plebicite in 1947 to decide whether they wished to cede to Pakistan or remain in India.That promise has never yet been honored. In central India the UN Charter gave independence to Hyderabad in central India. A year later Indian troops annexed the state and it no longer exists as an independent state. Anyone remember?Any one care?
The Nagas of Nagaland and the people of Magalaya have since 1947 been trying to establish their own states and have never enjoyed self-determination as was promised them by Lord Mountbatten and Nehru.

Pol Pot was allowed to massacre over 6 million men,women and children while the UN looked on without a trace of interest or pity.
In the Balkans the UN handed thousands of Muslims over to mere 500 Dutch (or were they Belgian?) soldiers to protet them.What happened at Sarajevo? They were massacred by Mladic who today struts around Serbian watering holes in full view of KFOR troops and hasnt been brought to justice.
In Rwanda the UNO had a week's warning of the massacre that was being openly planned but nothing was done to stop it. Millions died.
Darfur, Ethiopia, northern Kenya, Somalia ... need I go on?
It's all a game of dominos and chess to the world powers..human beings are used as pieces to play around with and pain and death are their only rewards.

socratease

Yes Paul L your reaction was over the top, but it showed you are in fact a radical.
80 dead? can you truly think only 80 died because of the monster?
Proudly and forever I am opposed to your views if that makes me a loony lefty so be it

Belly – I don’t know how correct Paul number of 80 is but what he is trying to say is that all people like you are interested in doing is talking about it! Talking about how terrible it is! Talking about how somebody should do something to stop him! And yet when a man worse then Mugabe (Saddam) is kicked out you carry on like it was a better idea to leave him in power! And you and foxy say that the real criminasl are now the Australians, Poms and Americans!

Your position is – You don’t like these people in power BUT you don’t want anybody to remove them from power using force! The sad thing is Belly you are a smart person but your credibility is diminished when you honestly think that asking people like Mugabe and Saddam to leave power “nicely” that they will listen! History has ALWAYS proved you wrong. The only person you are fooling is yourself!

The UN is a joke it will never do anything but pass resolutions or at most impose sanctions. It is too much of a committee with to many interest groups to ever conclude to take divisive action.

Foxy the only way to get Mugabe out is to find a trigger! (Mugabe supporting a terrorist attack would be good) But alas Mugabe is just a greedy common dictator and not interested in world affairs but only interested in lining the pockets of himself and that of his hench men at the expense of the people of Zimbabwe. So at most we will have sanctions and will have to wait till Mugabe dies of natural causes till there is any chance to help Zimbabwe

Easy Times Paul L is saying a lot more than that I disagree with most of what he is saying.
You too get it wrong read on mate.
At the time of this Iraq war I was for it.
I have often stated that here.
I thought the WOMD existed ,in fact they may well have been smuggled into Iran.
A facts just getting rid of Saddam and his sons would have justified the war for me.
A whole history of miss handling the whole war by America made me anti war.
Did you not cringe at those photos?
The rapes?
At every friendly fire death from day one?
Do you know how I would get rid of Robert Mugabe?
If south Africa was truly interested in freedom for Africans they would invade Zimbabwe.
How do you get from that the idea I am sitting back doing nothing?
I know putting flowers in the barrels of our guns and throwing them away only insures our defeat.
But unless America has a new party leading it and finds new directions I no longer believe they lead my world

Belly,

Well then you are in the minority on the left mate. So many that I come across merely repeat the ill considered slogans of the anti-US lobby.

I agree with you that the war in Iraq and Afghanistan has been mishandled. But there are clear indications that we can win in Iraq and we have a duty to do so, considering all the promises we've made, all the lives we've lost and the money which has been spent. I'll be happy to see the back of Bush but Obama is a big problem. His strict time line for withdrawal will throw away any chance of leaving Iraq as a stable democracy. It is a recipe for disaster. Withdrawal must be based upon the improvement in the ability of the Iraqi gov't to maintain order. Specifically the ability of the Iraqi army to put down the insurgency.

When you talk about rapes, are you talking about American solders?? Because if you are you should know that ugly acts like that are not in ANY WAY indicative of the behaviour of the average soldier. They are isolated incidents which occur whenever you have 150,000 people in one place.

I deplore the abuses at Abu Ghraib but there is so much more at stake. Iraq has the potential to be the first Arab democracy. The people have shown by the turnout on voting day of their preference.

I may have been a little harsh with socratease but I am sick and tired of the whole "NO BLOOD FOR OIL" mantra. It's obviously not right, and I think I showed that.

Furthermore I agree with his assessment of the UN and their failure to act during Rwanda, Bosnia, Darfur and other conflicts. As I've already said, having China and Russia with a veto in the Security Council makes that body a joke.

Mugabe has certainly been responsible for much suffering but he is NOT in the same league as Saddam Hussein. I defy anyone to show otherwise.

Dear Easy Times,

I did not mean to suggest that the West are criminals.
And you're right - talk is cheap.
But if we put enough pressure on world opinion
perhaps the people in power may just pay attention.
As the saying goes, "drop by drop even a mountain
gets eroded."

Mugabe surely no one can not see his crimes against his own people?
How like another ex African leader Amin he now is.
And the world should not allow him to rule one more day.
As we should not let North Korea blackmail us so we send the food they could grow them selves if free to do so.
Humanity is a bigger cause than left or right politics.

Paul
Always go hard,mate.Dont worry about saying sorry.
The media is the messaage always.A robust discussion is always more exciting than a cold,remote and politically correct discussion.

socratease