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The Forum > General Discussion > The dying are draining more than money, Should we learn to pull the plug?

The dying are draining more than money, Should we learn to pull the plug?

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Would you consider passing a law that states if you are in a certain stage of life it is acceptable to end it and to allow funding for beds and health workers to care for the living. I have been considering this after trying to find a bed for my brother who is not dying just not mentally well. Though there are over 120 Nursing Homes in my small town of 95000 but no care houses for him to live.
I am asking if you have seen the lives of these elderely who are bed ridden, unable to eat, toilet or speak would you put a tick to a box next to the organ donor box that might ask if you would like to be sent to your heaven or whole in the dirt, to allow someone else assistance that is being spent on keeping your decaying and eroding physical body alive? I am stating again, that I am not asking for others to choose who should live or die due to stupidity or looks, (the world would be smaller by a few politicians and porn queens if that happened), I am asking for opinions on how long should we live for?
Posted by alphafemale, Monday, 28 August 2006 9:05:46 PM
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Answer - No.

For all the reasons that you wouldn't understand, even if I put them forward here. To even have asked the question indicates clearly that you hold no conscience regarding the moral sacredness and dignity of human life.

All the very best to you.
Posted by Maximus, Tuesday, 29 August 2006 11:49:50 AM
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Unfortunately you found this topic to be very personal and emotionally disturbing. This is acceptable. There are many theories being thrown around in medical circles and religious circles that are far more intense to people who have very strict morals and principles on how they live their own personal life. The question was posed for a purpose to ask whether we would allow ourselves to accept death as a natural occurance in life. It is already legal in many circumstances. My question was would you personally tick a box that stated when your body was beyond repair and you were incapable of being of any further service to your society or to yourself would you like to go to your heaven or hole in the dirt? In primitive cultures to reach the stage of death is a great honour because of their differing faiths but faiths still of afterlife.
Posted by alphafemale, Wednesday, 30 August 2006 11:02:57 AM
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Answer - Yep.

Those poor unfortunate elderly consigned to nursing home care are treated as lumps of skin and bone, irrespective of how wealthy they are, what they once were. Often the elderly are starved - its easier to lift an old lady who weighs 40kg than an old lady who weighs 65 kg.

Not sure if nursing home patients are allowed to share bedrooms anymore, but would you want to share with a stranger. I have walked past whimpering patients sitting in their own urine but I don't believe I have seen any tied down.

These poor unfortunate elderly don't want to sit around waiting to die, left with just their memories of the life they once led, denied the comfort of a fag and a glass of alcohol. Now that they are in assisted care they can't pass their days in a drug induced haze like they did when they lived in their own home.

I hope you find suitable accommodation for your brother.
Posted by billie, Wednesday, 30 August 2006 5:30:55 PM
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Hmm...

Billie might have a point. At least as far as women go. But then again -

Guardian
Ladies - let yourselves go!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/gender/story/0,,1860829,00.html

Geez - it's tricky, isn't it?
Posted by Maximus, Wednesday, 30 August 2006 6:18:04 PM
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lol yes we have the problem of living longer than men on average. I have always been curious why we fear dying so much. My children asked me what happens when we die and I am raising them as christians even though I have decided not to be and after answering their question as to knowledge on their beliefs I started to consider why we fight death so much. It is a very difficult question and not necessarily my point of view that is why I am interested in other peoples choices and beliefs in their mortality.
I have found my brother a better place thank you for your concern. In our society their is a hole that has created more homeless, hopeless, sad people. I am a obsessive fighter for rights and protection of people in our country that cannot fight for themselves and the mentally ill are so disadvantaged and mistreated in society it is apalling. Yes I have a soap box and have changed the conversation. I have been the caretaker of my older brother for nearly 20 years He is tired and has the right to say no more. Choice is our right in this free country that our ancestors have fought for.
Posted by alphafemale, Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:21:57 PM
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Alphafemale...I agree with maxixmus when he says u have no regard for the sanctity of human life but i think that comes about largely because of your dispassionate post..in essence you were blunt and sounded very cold but I do take your point.
But do we have the right to choose? I believe so.I nursed my mother thru lung cancer and she was in pain much of the time.She had a very high pain threshhold so when she presents herself to an outpatients doctor and demands the she "puts her out" I realised her life at that point was completely unbearable..she was 55.

If we had to say goodbye to her that night it would have been the toughest thing Ive ever had to do, but we cant say and speak on behalf of the elderly and dying and put forth religiuos arguements and government policy about how they must observe societies protocol regarding this.I feel for you and your brother.

I will take my life by whatever means if I ever see myself in pain like my mother.....
Posted by OZGIRL, Saturday, 2 September 2006 2:08:22 PM
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My grandmother who had chronic renal failure, on dialysis, emphysema, cardiomyopathy, and a host of smaller things, refused to go to a nursing home. 4 times a week after her dialysis treatment she would pull herself up four flights of stairs and sleep until her next treatment. Her life was having dialysis to live long enough to get to the next treatment.

She eventually got fed up and was sick of being a burden to those around her. Her mental facilities were hawk like and she didn't miss a beat but her body just hadn't kept up.

On a Sunday night at the end of summer she told the family that she would be stopping dialysis in another 2 weeks. We all instantly knew what it meant. No more dialysis, no more gran.

In those 2 weeks my gran planned her own funeral, picked her own flowers, chose our outfits(!), wrote her eulogy and had everything in order.

Her family were all there from the first day she didn't go to dialysis until she passed on 2 days later.

My Gran didn't want to go on indefinitely with the support of dialysis. How much longer she would have lasted we will never know. My mother, who looked after her for 8 years has decided she never wants to be a burden and will find a way out if she has too, and as much as i fear dying, I will find a way out too if the need arises.
Posted by charliechuckles, Sunday, 3 September 2006 12:13:08 PM
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I have written as clear as possible but words are always read in the mind with inflection from the reader, I have been guilty of reading more into or less into an opinion and i am blunt because I did not want to conjecture my opinions on religion or belief on the subject. It has been in the recent news and has been practiced for thousands of years by societies, I was interested in other peoples valid opinions as I knew mine and wanted a wider scope to compare it with. Thank you for your personal stories they are/brave family members and I as many others understand your loss and also the agony of our own pain in losing them and their pain in living.
Posted by alphafemale, Sunday, 3 September 2006 7:18:21 PM
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Alphafemale...my apolagies for saying you had no 'regard for the sancity of human life' as I dont know you and it is even my 1st time posting alongside you I should have kept my own cousel there somewhat..I was referring to the tone of your post but it read badly.

The fact that u nursed your brother for 20 yrs had to be a huge wrench from your life in so many ways..and not many people would really have the strength to deal with that..

So if my comments hurt you in any way Im sorry as Id never want to add to that kind of personal heartache in any way.you sound like a strong loving and committed lady...
Posted by OZGIRL, Monday, 4 September 2006 12:16:05 AM
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he he he

Ozgirl is right. I also feel for you and many others.

I cant see how the right to die with dignity suddenly becomes a church Issue.

If it does then, which church?

After all we hardley are a country of one are we.

What about the non Church People.

Everybody has a right to live the way they see fit.

Also the right to die.

I have seen the elderly tied up like dogs in public hospitals.

They dope them so they are easy to handle and tie them up to save putting on too many staff.

If they are elderly and without family they are always up for a section 25 making them legally unable to run their own affairs.[ Especially if they own a house] public trustee]

If somebody is going to die but they are in such great pain its living hell to wait.

Let them Go if its their choice and leave the greiving family alone if there is any.

Alfa do you have any help with your brother./

What support do you have. You certainly are somebody very special.

Dont Let anybody ever tell you differently.

What can we do to make it easier for you?

How about a week off.

I am sure we could plan a break for you and supply good care for your brother as well.

There is always a bed on The Gold Coast For You Just Say When.

Thanks for sharing with us.

Its quite humbling.

.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Monday, 4 September 2006 11:35:33 PM
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Below is a post I wrote on another thread.

"Thirty years ago, late one Saturday night, my alcoholic father crashed to the floor in a coma.

Upon arrival the locum who responded to my mother's call examined my father and delayed calling an ambulance.

When he did call for an ambulance, he conferred with the ambos for some time, he then checked my father's vitals - dad was dead.

An autopsy was required, as my father was one of those men who rarely attended doctor's - the autopsy revealed a massive cerebral hemorrhage. Had my father been 'saved' he would've been a complete vegetable. Due to the locum's actions my father died peacefully and painlessly in his own home.

My 96 Y.O. grandmother caught pneumonia and was hospitalised, after saying farewell to her daughters and son, she pulled out all life support during the night and downed some cached painkillers. She, too passed away peacefully and on her own terms after farewelling her family.

My mother, now 82, has made her wishes very clear - she does not want to be placed on life support. If she reaches a stage where she is no longer corpus-mentis then she too wishes to be euthanised."

There is nothing herioc about forcing people to live in pain and suffering. I urge everyone to make their wishes very clear to their families should they be suffering from terminal illness.
Posted by Scout, Tuesday, 5 September 2006 11:13:41 AM
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alphafemale, in answer to your question.

Yes I'd tick such a box but be very nervous is a Qld Health bean counter was involved in making the decision as to when I'd reached that point.

It could get a bit like the "bring out your dead" scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Apart from those who'd rather see people suffer a long drawn out death than offend the less than clearly stated objections of their god to a clean exit I see little real objection except that someone more concerned about a different agenda might want to bring the process on early.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 5 September 2006 12:57:19 PM
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It's outrageous the way assorted religious beliefs are forced onto the Australian community, whether we agree with them or not. For those who say that only God can decide when a person's life on earth is to end, then I would answer this. When a person is suffering terrible pain and incapacity from a terminal condition and is kept alive only by the intervention of other human beings, using drugs and/or machines, then it could fairly be said [by those who believe in God], that God has already decided to bring that person's earthly existence to an end.
Posted by Rex, Tuesday, 5 September 2006 1:08:48 PM
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great Posts

Wheres Philo

imagine

take pills your about to
Philo rocks up

Speaking of

An older lady gets pulled over for speeding...
Older Woman: Is there a problem, Officer?

Officer: Ma'am, you were speeding.

Older Woman: Oh, I see.

Officer: Can I see your license please?

Older Woman: I'd give it to you but I don't have one.

Officer: Don't have one?

Older Woman: Lost it, 4 years ago for drunk driving.

Officer: I see...Can I see your vehicle registration papers please.

Older Woman: I can't do that.

Officer: Why not?

Older Woman: I stole this car.

Officer: Stole it?

Older Woman: Yes, and I killed and hacked up the owner.
Officer: You what?

Older Woman: His body parts are in plastic bags in the trunk if you
want to see

The Officer looks at the woman and slowly backs away to his car and
calls for back up. Within minutes 5 police cars circle the car. A
senior officer slowly approaches the car, clasping his half drawn
gun.

Officer 2: Ma'am, could you step out of your vehicle please! The
woman steps out of her vehicle.

Older woman: Is there a problem sir?

Officer 2: One of my officers told me that you have stolen this car
and murdered the owner.
Older Woman: Murdered the owner?

Officer 2: Yes, could you please open the trunk of your car, please.

The woman opens the trunk, revealing nothing but an empty trunk.

Officer 2: Is this your car, ma'am?
Older Woman: Yes, here are the registration papers. The officer is
quite stunned.

Officer 2: One of my officers claims that you do not have a driving
license.

The woman digs into her handbag and pulls out a clutch purse and
hands it to the officer.

The officer examines the license. He looks quite puzzled.

Officer 2: Thank you ma'am, one of my officers told me you didn't
have a license, that you stole this car, and that you murdered and
hacked up the owner.

Older Woman: Bet the liar told you I was speeding, too.

Don't Mess With Old Ladies
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Tuesday, 5 September 2006 1:50:50 PM
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Probably timely here to mention Phillipe Nitshke?(that spelling may not be correct)also known as DR death..?

I think he fought most of his battles with the church and 'right to life' groups regarding this didnt he?
Posted by OZGIRL, Tuesday, 5 September 2006 2:57:24 PM
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Wendy

ROFL

I thank you and I thank your mother and father who made you possible and I thank the universe for the atoms that make up your existence.

YES
Posted by Scout, Tuesday, 5 September 2006 2:57:58 PM
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I thank all of you for your personal and valid comments. I will endeavour to change old habits with my impersonal writing style. I am unused to being emotional due to career and single female amongst 32 males at work. I am called Alph by them and I suppose you would say I have agreed to work with the pack not against.
I was raised by a single working mother in the years of no Centrelink. I had an alcoholic father who died in a very similar way to your father Scout. When we moved to Brisbane, I grew up in nursing homes through my mothers work and my first born also did while I worked and studied and Nanna babysat.
It was beneficial for my maturity and also my daughters and most of all the elderly. There are some wonderful families who believe a nursing home is just a second home to give more care and less stress for the families but they do not abandon their relatives. I admire the loyalty and family core these people believe in.
There are people who find it too hard to visit as their relatives are in later stages of dementia and alzcheimer's a cruel and horrible fater first for the person going through it and when memory disappears cruel for the loved ones who see the parent that is now gone but still there.
Then there are the abandoned. They sit in their corners relying on some not all but still some very wonderful staff and volunteers to give them a little care and physical and emotional touch each day.Their independence gone their rights gone. When they were able to say yes or no, what do I want with my last years of life. Is that when we should think of having decisions made in living wills, before we have no pride and dignity to say what we want and demand for our life which is all we have control over.
Posted by alphafemale, Tuesday, 5 September 2006 8:42:47 PM
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Alpha...Yes the indignities of growing old are cruel..when one is old we become invisible..such is the obsession with staying young in this society today...cosmetic surgery going thru the roof for both men and women trying to turn back the clock to stave off the inevitable..

Time marches on though and we have to face our mortality sooner or later...for those of us lucky enough to stay healthy for as long as we can all well and good but as you say there so many old and forgotten ill and elderly people in hospitals who, yes do rely on only hospital staff to care for them in their final time on earth..
Its a cruel reminder of how aging can make us invisible..noone cares and expect nothing.

I will try to accept that my children will eventually have less and less time for me as I grow older...I will try to begin my life again with renewed vigour and focus..make time for all those projects i dont have time for now..go on hikes for days at a time...become a 'femme fatale' and give all the oldies in the nursing homes a bit of a thrill.
I dont know but i do know this ..NOONE IS GOING TO put me on the rubbish tip before im ready.

Now all i have to do is hope to do is stay healthy, physically and mentally.
Cheers
Posted by OZGIRL, Wednesday, 6 September 2006 9:57:03 PM
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Alfafemale

I would just like to say you have done something good for people by this article.
You come on here and you feel peace and love and yes a bit of sadness too.

Its a rare place where people actually speak to each other with understanding.

Well Done.

Thanks Scout Mum and dad would of been proud of that.

Remember Alfagirl just because dad liked a drink doesnt mean he didnt love you beyond belief.

Reserach has showed alcolics are generally clever senstive people who have trouble adopting the hard facts on an uncaring world.

Mums of course are always the salt of the earth and yours sounds remarkable.
The result of course is a remarkable daughter such as you.

Thats her prise and reward for all her efforts.

We are lucky because we can share with her.

Thanks mum

I dont drink much guys.
Only when I hear from Yabby[grin] Which reminds Me Yabby lesson three>
A little bird was flying south for the winter. It was cold,The bird froze and fell to the ground into a large field.
While he was lying there,a cow came by ad dropped some dung on him.
As the frozen bird layed there in the pile of cow dung, he began to realise how warm he was.
The dung was actually thawing him out!
He lay there all warm and happy, and soon began to sing for joy.
A passing cat heard the birs singing and came to investigate.
Following the sound, the cat discovered the bird under the pile of cow dung,and promtly dug him out and ate him.
management lesson>
Not everyone you SH on is your enermy
[2] Not everyone who gets you out of the SH is your friend.
[3]
And When Your in deep SH its best to keep your mouth shut!.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Thursday, 7 September 2006 4:28:41 AM
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Wendy...LOL...thats all...
Posted by OZGIRL, Thursday, 7 September 2006 10:10:57 AM
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I lost my mother at age 55(her age)..
If she had been given the choice I know for a fact that she would have chosen to end her life in HER own time...
I still remember the day she begged to be 'put down' such was her pain and never a time in my life did I as her daughter feel so wretched and in pain for my mother.

I nursed her thru lung cancer and it was long and drawn out...my children watched her on a daily basis waste away..
the indignity of her daughter toileting her, bathing her, it made her feel less than human..but her choices were taken away..

So Alphafemale...in some small way I know of what you speak..you are amazingly strong and have not had an easy road, but remember you can reach out and be brave enough, and yes I use the word brave and trusting enough to know that there are some beautiful people in this world who would share your heartache and help you thru some of your toughest and darkest days..when you are used to coping alone and struggling thru it feels alien to actually put your faith in the hands of another human, I know I,ve done it for the longest time, but only now am I realising that there are a lot of people with enough love in their hearts for you too.
Coping alone tells my children that the world and its people cant be trusted ,that they are alone and noone cares.. the one regret I have about being in my position..I am trying to change that.

Wendy extended a loving gesture to you..how much do you trust your own vulnerability to accept her?
Posted by OZGIRL, Thursday, 7 September 2006 3:14:30 PM
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Alphafemale, Scout, Wendy, OZGIRL thank you all for opening your lives up on this thread. I'm struggling to find appropriate words for the impact some of what is being shared has but please know that your contributions, compassion and openness are a breath of fresh air despite the pain of the topic.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 7 September 2006 4:47:24 PM
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ah Gee Guys

You nearly have me in tears Ozgirl, Robert.

Alfafemale. I hope you do take me up on that offer.

The only thing that could improve on that is if Ozgirl and Robert all came along too.
Why Not.! I have haps of room.

Maybe Scout and Celiva could come too.!

Hey we could do it once a year. If you like.

Lets!

I am serious.

We could take the boat bbq on the beach and with the horses.

Lets!

Come on Ozgirl You certainly deserve a break too.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Thursday, 7 September 2006 8:23:14 PM
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Wendy what a kind and generous offer...if im ever up your way ill make it a point to look you up..i live a good 2-4 days from Qld so its no mean feat just getting there, but ive been promising my lot that one day we,ll get to do Seaworld etc...perhaps next year.

What a kind and generous spirit you have...dont ever cahnge.
Posted by OZGIRL, Friday, 8 September 2006 10:02:03 AM
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To Alphafemale and all the wonderful folk who have written to support her. We are an octogenerian couple who are about to celebrate our diamond wedding anniversary (60 loving years). We do not pretend that we have not had some rough patches. but it has been a wonderful journey. We have 3 children, 6 grandchildren and 9 great grand children. As all except 1 live interstate and have their own lives to live, we have almost lost contact with most of them. No matter,we have each other. We are fortunate that we both have no serious medical problems but we have made it clear to all that when we do suffer an incurable condition and become a burden on the family or society we do NOT wish to have any steps taken to prolong life. If my wife were to be taken before me then I am determined that I will surely follow her as soon as possible as life without her would be unbearable. Our answer to you is a resounding YES.
Posted by ALAMO, Friday, 8 September 2006 2:25:03 PM
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ozgirl.

Gee Thanks. Coming from You I treasure that. Remember I mean it.

I read your story and thought wow .

ALAMO. And The world is a little richer for your sharing your story.

Does anybody know the main objection and where it comes from with the right to die with dignity?
I know its church groups but Alfafemale Do you know which one mainly?

This is a lovely post Alfafemale. I always feel so welcome and mentally realxed on this post unlike my Animal Welfare work.

You have really started something here for the better. I hope you will keep this post open forever so people can come and talk and receive support.
Its a nice place to be. I am glad ozgirl told me about it.
How is your brother Alfafemale?
And how are you really Ozgirl.

Goodnight Fair Ladies and I will pray for you all and the animals and the elderly who are so lonely and in nursing homes.
And all That while I kick the but out of the church groups about animal welfare[grin]
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Saturday, 9 September 2006 12:40:49 AM
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Regarding religious objections to voluntary euthanasia:

http://www.euthanasia.cc/religion.html

Extract from this website:

"Official church policies usually oppose euthanasia. The Roman Catholic Church is the largest single funder opposed to euthanasia. It invests more money in its fight against euthanasia than all the combined resources of right to die societies around the world many times over.

Tactics in support of the Roman Catholic Church's position apparently include disinformation (usually claiming no safeguards) and threats of excommunication - this was well documented in the heated campaigns of the USA and elsewhere.

Of the other churches, the Episcopalian (Anglican) Unitarian, Methodist, Presbyterian and Quaker movements are amongst the most liberal, allowing at least individual decision making in cases of active euthanasia. Hindu and Sikh Dharma may also leave it to individual conscience.

Nowadays, few faiths prohibit passive euthanasia, or refusal of treatment decisions. Those that do tend to oppose it include conservative Evangelicals, Islam, and the Mormon Church."

But most "believers" don't agree with their official church policy:

"Opinion polls consistently show a majority of people professing all variety of faiths support a change in the law for voluntary euthanasia. Even amongst Roman Catholics, more people support euthanasia than oppose it (a poll in Scotland showed over 50% support, in spite of the church's opposition)."

So why do so many people stay with a religion which they don't agree with on some basic issues? Perhaps for a similar reason that many of us continue to vote for politicians who we don't like, respect or trust. Because we find ourselves in a position where we try to choose the least of the available evils.

I typed religious objection to voluntary euthanasia into Google and got lots of good info.
Posted by Rex, Saturday, 9 September 2006 3:01:30 PM
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