Dear Joseph...

"Anti Semitism" in the Bible? Please realize the Gospel authors were Jewish except for Luke.

Paul was a Jew..and Pharisee at that. "A Hebrew of the Hebrews, as to the Law a Pharisee"

I, as a Christian, do not see anything 'anti Jewish' or anti semitic in the Gospels. Perhaps the closest is the quotation of the Jewish crowd in Matthew 27:25

24When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, ...(said) "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"

<<All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!">>

Now..you might suggest "Oh.. because of this, Christians hate Jews and must seek to punish them for causing the death of Jesus"

Now..what is the Christian understanding of this? based on full counsel of the New Testament?

POINT 1: The death of Jesus was NOT because of Jewish animosity but the very will of God!

John (a Jew) 19:24 (Referring to the Crucifixion)

<This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said,
"They divided my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.">

John 19:37

36These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," 37and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."

INTERPRETATION:
Question "Why"....did these things happen?
Answer "that the scripture would be fulfilled"

Clearly, based on the fundamental meaning of words.. Christians have NO basis for anti semitic feelings.

We can look at Isaiah 53 also:

4 ... yet we considered him (Messiah) stricken by God, (by who?)

Verse 5
But he was pierced for OUR transgressions,
he was crushed for OUR iniquities;
the punishment that brought US peace was upon him,
and by his wounds WE are healed.

Joseph..do you undersand? "WE" (our sin)...crucified Jesus...not the Jews.

It matters not that you may 'choose' to interpret Isaiah differently, but that is the Christian understanding and when you make allegations against us for anti semitism, it is that which you must take account of.

Boazy,

Greetings.

"The old 'look what the cat dragged in' theory of Gnostism and the Trinity, Serapis etc.. is all out of whack with so much else.
I recommend a read of Pauls letter to the Colossians for some insights into how 'proto-gnosticism' was being addressed in his time, but the full blown version didn't arise till the 2nd and 3rd century."

Citations, citations, citations outside of the Bible, my friend.

My case put is not out of whack with history. As I mentioned before, if someone finds a book claiming relevation and insights, yet there is nothing supporting the claim, the posit is small.

In this thread, were we to focus on the question of whether Herod [the Great] was dead or alive, we could use our respective approaches to analyse the Bible's claim Herod was alive when Jesus was born.

Boazy, I will try again:

- Was Herod alive when Jesus was born?

IamJoseph,

Thank you for your contribitutions.

I think most Christians brought up on Chalton Heston would believe that Moses' most significant contribution was The Exodus and taking people his [not himself] flock to The Promised Land.

Yet, I feel from the tenent of your posts that Moses' contributions to the Hebrews was, he moved them from a henotheist tribal god and established their new covenant with god, based on monotheism. When said folk tried jump the gun worshiping a calf [?], a god typical of a settled people, Moses held them in the Present.

Toynbee notes that persecuted groups in history tend to take flight to Archaism and Futurism. For example, look back to a classical era or adopt a "we will be saved" posit. While, I do see an element of Futurism is the OT; I also see Moses keeping his people in the Present avoiding a lapsing into the Past or Future.

Inaddition, Moses, in the eyes of the Hebrews, established a "special" monotheist conventant with his god. Special, because, the people were "Chosen". Unlike Moses, Akhenaten was unable to maintain monotheist religion/coventant for more than a generation.

Some might argue that Abraham is the most significant figure in the Sumer-to-Western path of history, because he is recognized as the source of three monotheist religions. One god, three coventants?

My comments about Serapis was aimed at showing that Christians were capable of the same bad deeds as the Taliban.

IamJoseph and Oliver

I commend you both on your erudite interpretations of biblical texts. Usually my eyes glaze over, but you have made them of interest to me.

Boaz, stop salivating, I am not about to undergo a conversion - I find Joseph's and Oliver's posts of intellectual interest only. Perhaps, if you stopped listening to the sound of your own voice, you too could learn from them both.

its not about debating to induce people, which is a bad thing to do. The better point is, how does humanity remove these negative syndromes and respect each other on their deeds, instead of their race or belief. If a great religion cannot perform this basic function, it has failed. When a belief system viillifies others, generically, for all of its period of existence, demanding only that others believe its own doctrines or be deemed evil - it is a failed belief system.

This is the factor christianity has to deal with - which Islam is clearly failing with at this stage: it is in fact emulating the medevial church, and worse - the church is not just silent of it, but in support and fostering of it. Both these religions share the same dctrine of villifying others, not on their deeds but what their scriptures tell. And when this is attached to their belief in God - it becomes very difficult to resolve. Reverse the position and consider it: would you call it love if some other religion did this to you?

Guess what this means? Both are going to fall. And I don't say this as an I TOLD YOU SO! - but as a means of christians saving themselves and their belief. The dual NT and Quran dctrines point only to destruction of calamity of each other when push comes to shove, and its got nothing to do with Jews: you two will still have to face each other if Israel was destroyed! Its insanity.

I would like to see a christian and/or a muslim tell how this can be resolved - aside from the deathly demand of conversion, or its stealth version: accusing zionists of zionising zion. It is as if two king kong religions will fall in a heap if Israel exists. Talk about insecurity, and the dismal failure of so-called beliefs based on love. Can you see christianity falling if it cannot fix its problem? I don't want this to happen.

"Paul was a Jew..and Pharisee at that. "

Paul was expelled by the Nasserites - the first early followers of JC. Paul was a secular greek, and the early Jesus followers issued a death sentence on him - he was saved by Queen Bernice, grand-daughter of Herod, who ordered him tried in Rome, because he was a roman citizen; he was then executed on the roman charge of heresy - along with other jews. Why do you pick such a figure, and dismiss millions of other Jews? Paul never even met jesus, and he was only followed by the greeks, then by europe - while millions of jews were massacred by Paul's followers.

"I, as a Christian, do not see anything 'anti Jewish' or anti semitic in the Gospels."

What you are saying then, a firey preist can tell you how jews caused your savier's death, via Mad Mel's 2000 lashes per frame, and beedy eyed, hooked nosed jews revelling - but still not hate them? That's a great feat. But can you show us one other example of jews doing what the gospels says? - choose from 4000 years of history? All today's islamist terror is caused by the same means, as was the holocaust.

Better you consider how many jews gave their lives for defending their faith. The gospels invented anti-semitism, but you cannot admit this because it is attached to your belief in God. When I first read quotes and passages of mathew - I honestly felt I was reading Mein Kampf - yet you cannot see anything anti-semitic in the gospels? Is it not false the sacrifice of 1.1 millions in the defense of their belief against Rome is not recorded in the gospels - while they are villified as hapless money changers instead? The gospels wont tell you that the money changers were doing what they did for 2000 years - observing an OT command - and that Jesus failed in confronting the real issue at this time: depraved Rome?