david f,

For me Jesus was a first century Jew. Christianity was developed centuries latter. The Pauline writings Hellenised various gospels arising from spoken lore. Christanity's institutional foundation was established between the times of the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople.

I am not sure that Christianity necessarily reflects Jesus. Jesus did not sanction the future writing of NT, to the best of my knowledge. I see Jesus, as a Jew, with issues, not a Christian founder.

The ousia of the Christian godhead relates more to the Egyptian Serapis godhead, than it does the OT's Council of El.

Dear Joseph...

I have a challenge for you :)

Read Pauls letter to the Romans.. as he unfolds the human condition, and have a real close look at chapters 9-11 about Jews.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=1&version=31

Pericles.. I responded to your question in the Mindbodyspirit thread.

David.f.. urs too.

We looked at an indian myth in this thread. refer CJ morgans posts about half way. (Tsimshian)

blessings all.

cheers all.. must away

Oly.. your last post does connect with the area of "Interpeting" so I'll address it.

You said:

<For me Jesus was a first century Jew.> (err.. so? No one denies this except Pericles:)

<Christianity was developed centuries latter.> (again..very subjective, if you "begin" with this idea.. is it not possible you will then re-interpret all the evidence with that pre assigned conclusion in mind?)

<The Pauline writings Hellenised various gospels arising from spoken lore.>

Please read Galatians (Pauls own letter) (Phil 3:5ff)

circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a PHARISEE; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.

Do you honestly think a "Pharisee" would 'Hellenize' the Church or Jewish religion?

AUTHENTICITY OF PHILIPPIANS.

GENERAL VIEW:
Pauline authorship of Philippians is "universally accepted" (Beare, p. 1) by virtually all bible scholars, ancient and modern, with the exception of the kenosis passage in Philippians 2:5-11. This may have been an early Christian hymn that Paul quoted, rather than an original Pauline composition.

CRITICAL VIEW.
In 1845, F.C. Baur challenged the authencity of Pauline authorship of Philippians based on HIS BELIEF that the "bishops and deacons" in Philippians 1:1 must have been an ecclesiastical development that post-dated Paul. However, most scholars have rejected this argument as there appears to be no evidence that such offices could not have existed in Paul's day.

Oly..does Bauers argument carry much weight?

<Christanity's institutional foundation was established between the times of the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople.>

COMMENT:
With this.. I tend to agree. Though contrary to Bauer, Bishops and Deacons were in existence much earlier.

"HELLENIZED" by Paul? :) (AGHAST LOOK) you reallllly need to research this more thouroughly. (it's the opposite)
cheers.

WOOPS.. typo there.. forget the reference to 'Galatians' next to Phil 3:5ff)

Though Galatians also is helpful. In it, Paul gives a biographical sketch of his life and conversion.

Don't confuse 'identifying' with Greek Culture to communicate the Gospel with 'hellenization' of the Gospel.

When Paul went to Athens he noted all the idols and said:

"Guys..I see you are very religious! hmm.. but I notice there is one monument to an unknown god .. THAT ONE I proclaim to you" (Paraphrase)

blessings.

Dear BOAZ_David,

You keep suggesting we read the New Testament. How much non-Christian scripture have you read? Are you open to the insights of other religions?

I consider the Gospels fairy tales. The fruits of Christianity are exhibited in its history. Actually the New Testament was not written until sometime after the death of Jesus.

I have suggested four books to you.

"Constantine's Sword" by John Carroll who was a Catholic priest. That tells of the militarism, intolerance and Jew hatred of Christianity since Constantine.

"Confessions" of Saint Augustine. I was impressed by his intelligence as he speculated on time and space. However, he also showed an unreasonable guilt that he has passed on to Christianity in the doctrine of Original Sin. The idea that humans are born in sin is an ugly one.

"The Closing of the Western Mind" by Charles Freeman. This tells how the adoption of Christianity by the Roman Empire brought in the Dark Ages as the faith demanded by Christianity destroyed the spirit of inquiry and questioning in the classical world.

"The Conversion of Europe from Paganism to Christianity: 371-1386" by Richard Fletcher. 371 was the date that the Roman Empire adopted Christianity as a state religion. With the exception of Ireland the rest of Europe was converted by violence. 1386 was the date that Lithuania became Christian. There were a series of Crusades against Lithuania with great bloodshed for no other reason than that the Lithuanians wished to keep their status as a multicultural nation that tolerated all faiths. Some of my ancestors come from Lithuania.

Have you made any attempt to look at any of them? You keep pushing other people to look at what you think is important, but you don't seem interested in other points of view except to knock them down.

I consider Christianity like Marxism a massive failure. It has been tried and usually found wanting. Both Christians and Marxists will protest that their respective ideas have not really been tried. However, I doubt that new attempts to try either belief in unprovable propositions will result in anything better.

Re " And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ "

This post omits juice bits.

Islam says the same thing as does the gospels - but christians do not accept this - because they wanted their own messenger - yet christians demand this of others. It is of course incorrect that any Jew would call other Jews to harken to any other than the commands given them at Sinai via Moses. Specially with such a desecration of the foremost two commands from Sinai - and with no sight of Moses or the Giver of the law as at Sinai.

The truth is, not even the Holy One can change his commands - based on the attribute of truth ['The Lord is not like man that he will change his mind'/Samuel]. The truth is, both the NT and Quran make the same claims and demands, al biet with different names and doctrines and history. Here, the messenger has become transendent of the message - which is paganism - thus we see the majestic advocation not to worship anything within the created universe: logic says the Creator is - at least - transcendent of everything created. Logic says that christianity and Islam should be good to those who believe in God 2000 years before they emerged, and thus focus on the moral/ethical values which unite, instead of one's religion's egos and icons.

If one does not accept them - the rake and the sword is their answer, as history shows. Most believers in these two religions were enforced: Islam murdered millions in India and elsewhere unless they converted; Europe massacred millions of American natives, sending their children to convents, and enforced already exiled peoples when they refused the Gospels. Belief must never be enforced, and shown only by way of example - the true meaning of chosen and being a light unto the nations.

'WHAT IS HATEFUL TO YOU - DO NOT UNTO OTHERS' - Rav Hillel; 100 BCE, to a Roman soldier pressing a sword to his chest to bow to a Roman statue.