Oliver,
Do I understand properly, that you are/have been undergoing chemotherapy treatment for cancer? My thoughts (and prayers, if you do not mind) are with you.

I have not read Schrödinger’s paper you are referring to, but it seems that whether you call it ‘domains‘ or ‘realms‘ it is something similar to (an extension of?) Penrose‘s ‘worlds‘ (mental, physical and mathematical), distinct but interrelated, that we already discussed in another thread.

“Would 1 + 1 = 2, play to an empty house, if neither God nor the Universe existed”
“If, god did not exist and the Universe did not exist, would 1 + 1 = 2 exist, unobserved”

Well, 1+1=2 does not “exist”, it “holds”. However, if I understand you properly you are asking whether the mathematical world could exist if neither God nor the physical world nor our mental worlds existed.

It is at the same level of metaphysics as the classical question of philosophy “why there is something rather than nothing”. Or more down to earth, what does existence that cannot be observed directly (i.e. distant galaxies, or “our” dinosaurs) mean? If you believe in God, you have both a simple and a very sophisticated answer; if you do not, you have either a very sophisticated answer or you can claim that the question does not make sense.

There is a recent paper by John Byl [Matter, Mathematics and God, Theology and Science, vol. 5 (2007), pp. 73-86] essentially explaining why it is easier to accept the existence of a (Platonic) world of mathematics (and its “unreasonable effectiveness“ for physics) if you believe in God: the complementary nature of creating and discovering mathematics corresponds to the complementary nature of what is in your mind and what is in His. If you accept that then the answer to your above questions is probably “no“.

Spinoza’s pantheism is just one of many ways of “modeling” God, as interesting, and controversial, as it is, (like many other “models”) although in agreement with neither the Christian nor the Jewish understanding of God.

George, there is one level here that I haven't quite unravelled.

Oliver >>“If, god did not exist and the Universe did not exist, would 1 + 1 = 2 exist, unobserved”<<

George >>If you believe in God, you have both a simple and a very sophisticated answer; if you do not, you have either a very sophisticated answer or you can claim that the question does not make sense.<<

My problem with the question is not that it doesn't make sense, but that it rolls two concepts into one: God and the Universe.

Would it not be more palatable, from a philosophical point of view, to address the questions separately? To make them part of the same question invites the "very sophisticated answer" that God and the Universe are in fact the same entity. Which is fine for theists, but doesn't actually move the discussion forward.

To a non-theist, the presence of God in the question tilts the playing field towards the metaphysical, when the concept of mathematics is intensely physical in nature. It is possible to posit a universe that has no requirement for mathematics, but only if you do not believe in God. At least, the God that most theists describe.

And one under god, deal with it.

>>may next time you have a real comment [on topic] not just a complaint about teqnique<<

It was a suggestion, not a complaint. Take it or leave it.

In the NULL realm [hell] might is right

thus it is much like living a lie

[for all intent and purpose [E exist but L dont
[logic dosnt egsist in the null [hell] realm
[or rather it is suspended]

L[logus/logic] has been activilly rejected by those rejecting of freewill [L] [logus/god\logic] [L-Love-Light-Life-Logic=E

the E [energy] that underpins all M [mass]

[ALL M] EL alone sustains to be [mass = material reality]

El is light love life logic that is underpinning all realms

null realm is E alone

in Hell ; the might is right [E rules over E by might]
thus is the null [hell] devoid oF light/logus/logic

as hell is ruled by M [might ]
the might that is right deems beyond [L] that 1 plus 1 = -0-

[-m-0-m-]= the logic of might [hell] rejecting L

thus in a null realm 2 plus 2 = anything [M][E] L allows it to be

in the null realm [Without L ]
E = mass but just a mass with out L
ie becomes LiE

if the M-asses chose E over L
M-ass = Might

and the mob of the masses [becomes knowable] because it is revealed as LiE ,
Me has given L>L>L>L to allow WE

L less M = EL
in between EL inverted [LE] insert i
[its hard to put into words]
but we are allowed our own time [eternal lief to figure it out]
i am>me
AHH men

Pericles,

I am keeping the Universe and God separate, as soft-constructs. Yet, I wish to apply the discipline of "internal consistency" to these constructs/scales. Comment by Foxy and Spinoza suggest should not take this action, raising very significant questions about the [absolute] permeation of their God [not metaphysical to thesis].

Spinoza and Fechner developed permeation to the "Thought of God" how far does it extend? The hylozoits considered similar themes c. 200 BCE. Giordano Bruno, who was burnt at the stack for questioning several ideas of the Catholic Church, explored the notion of the Thought of God too. He not only belived that the Earth circled the sun, he raised the if God's thought permeates inorganic matter, Does inorganic matter have a soul?

[To which I would add does everything contain God's ousia and inversely is everything in the ousia of God's godhead?]

Sorry, I am drifting a bit, but deliberately, I ask you as an Atheist, to suspend the notion of God as totally non-existent [only for a while] and think of God, as a hypothetical construct [as Gallileo was; Popper], if not a realty, just for a few posts.

Propisition x + n-Domains, is very different to x(n-Domains), if x equals God. I [tentatively*] would the former, except God subsists but does not exist. This debate could have it's own thread. For now, I need to deal with each God and the Universe separately.

IF I recall correctly you are a medical student? In medicine if the patient is bleeding, presumably you think of "blood" generally, and stop the bleeding with pressure. With a transfusion you need to consider ABO groupings. I am working the lattter with my constructs.

*Unless someone has a better proof.

csteel and Ludwig,

The mice claim it is not .31830988618379067153776752674503, rather its 13.369015219719208204586236123293. :-)

Squeak, squeak,

Oly.

George,

I will search for the paper you cited. Thanks.

I couldn't find a specific reference to "holds" in the OED Unabridged nor several maths dictionaries, but I know the word in its common usage, holds true. Unless you correct me, I will take "holds" to mean adherence of the equations elements, including homomophism in factorisation. 1 + 1 = 2 and 2 - 1 = 1.

Cheers friend.

Well_done oliver [you-have by-passed my-under-standing] all-this educated musing has lost-me [in-having-to search every-second word it-gets-me beyond where-i-feel urge to-go]

I feel if-anyone needs special-knowledge to-explain words they-are missing the-fact that children_'get'_god better-than many adults, any-way i found a-line i-feel i-can help-out with [for-what its worth]

quote

>>if-God's-thought-permeates-inorganic-matter, Does-inorganic-matter-have a soul?<<

does-a copper-wire that conducts-electricity retain the-current flow it-conducted?

Clearly-not unless hooked up-to-a battery_or_condenser or-other charge_retaining_capacitor.[because electicity>is-a-flow-rate that only conducts the-ELect-ron-flow]

We-are missing the-fact that the-soul_isnt-the_spirit ,just-as there is-a spiritual heaven and hell , there-is a celestial H=H ,[as-well as the 'natural [H=H]

We-are given the_spirit [life-,living-logus_Holy-spirit ,that_ALL ways_belongs to_god ,as a_gift

We cloth it in mass while-in the material_realm ,that forms our soul-body [id] that becomes born'again' at our 'material death ,

where-our spirit is-eventually-released [along-with our soul_body into the astral-realm]

Till in time we lose our physical-attatchment to 'our sins or our percieved good 'we assume-we-did-of our-selves chose to-do while being incarnate ''as-our material-'selves' during this-material incarnation ]

[in-short in-time the 'truth ' sets our_spirit free [from our material flesh then our soul -ody]

[we clothe it [our_spirit] in our soul_body before becomming born again into the celestial_realm where it is clothed in light ,

the saying the-devil-take your soul is-because your spirit belongs to god [but the_soul is simply the-body for spiritual transition into the celestial into H>or<H]

What the soul is is aether-material [just in this realm our physical body is litterally_made_from 'dust' [its not the in-animate dust that contains our living spirit ,but_the_soul]

Thus is mere-Mass inanimate , without soul

[even if gods spirit permeates straight through it] ,

the whorship of idols thus is revealed totally absurd ,indeed to put anything before god ,

but we are getting to the material that may become infused with spirit but yet not have a soul.

[spiritual texts [are inanimate but may reveal the spirit captured in the words or images ,but they in essence are sans soul]

any way such is as best my logic can explain in my igno-rant way.