I was still in Primary school when I heard the joke about the blind men passing the fish cannery and calling "Good night, ladies".

By the time I was 20 I had used so many scrubs, deodorants, wipes etc. that I was doing some serious chemical damage to soft tissues. Thank goodness I had sensible GP!

Despite a lifetime of having to smile dutifully at references to sardines - (so that I would show I was a good sport and had a sense of humour)I was 34 before I heard the word smegma. Even though I had given birth to two boys and hospital staff kept trying to convince me to get them circumsized for "hygiene purposes" no-one ever explained just what that meant. Certainly smell was never mentioned. I had never heard of the possibility in relation to men.

I was devastated when both my sons who at, respectively, 11 and 9, had always wanted to marry every girl in the playground,suddenly announced girls were "icky" and "disgusting" . They had been told by "the Big Boys" that girls smelt like day old bait.

To me, there seem only two reasons why a guy would sniff a chair where a woman has been:- either she is "on heat" all the time and spraying pheromones around like the nieghbourhood tom-cat, (is that why we are called cats?)or else her personal hygiene is at fault. I don't find anything at all jolly or light-hearted about either of those scenarios.

Any other women out there who feels an undercurrent of embarrassment about this incident and others of this kind? Anyone else who feels indignant at having to prove what a good sport she is and how she has a great sense of humour when actually she feels quite shirty and really, really, does not think it is even slightly funny? Anyone else feel the word "dignity" hovering around and being compromised out of existence?

Romany,

I should imagine almost all women would feel at the least an 'undercurrent of embarrassment' if not outright indignation upon being apprised of the incident in question. That is why it has been deliberately publicised: it can be guaranteed to offend, at least privately, 50 percent of the electorate. No doubt the hope of those who have put it about is that in the privacy of the polling-booth in the not-too-distant future, most women will express this indignation on a ballot-paper.

It would be a mistake to identify the (largely male) humour that has greeted this incident as necessarily being approval or acceptance of the 'standard' purportedly being set by the perpetrator in this or any similar case. I would suggest much of it is what would be classed as 'barracks humour'. Barracks humour is a (again largely male) means of dealing with shockingly unpleasant, and in most cases unchangeable, realities. Perhaps the closest 'polite' approach to an understanding of the context in which it is typically generated (at least the Australian variant) may be achieved by viewing John Doyle's complete musical comedy serialisation "Changi". Of course "Changi" does not have the coarseness of most barracks humour, but it does give a good idea of what can generate it. (Funny as a circus! That bit where the bloke put the bottle of beer and the parcel of prawns on the table, 50 years on, without saying a word, said all about what was on his mind. Hilarious. Subtle. And dignified.)

If you must know, the fourth line of my own little 'musical accolade' to 'Julie Vickers' in the 'Bra snapper, chair-sniffer party' thread was the bit about which I was least comfortable. In the event 'Julie Vickers' really exists and is female, let it be known that I put that in not just for rhyming purposes, but as a means of throwing back in her face her sanctimonious hypocrisy in deliberately further publicising this unpleasantry.

Focus your anger on the manipulation of Australian politics that effectively sets such initial conduct as a 'standard'.

Dear Romany,

I don't think there's a woman out there who would not be embarrassed by the chair-sniffing incident. It certainly has the 'cringe factor'
attached to it. Who would not feel humiliated by making something so personal, so public?

I agree with Forrest. It's cheap publicity - and the only way to counter it is at the ballot box. Hopefully the message will get across loud and clear - that there are certain things that should be left well enough alone - as good taste dictates.

Romany,

I can understand you feeling uncomfortable with said joke, but your prelude implying some sort of gender double standard is ridiculous.

Jokes of 'cheese', even 'scrot rot' are commonplace, so I'd just put it down to differences in the sense of humour of men and women. I'm sure most guys would laugh at each other the same way they force each other to smell their farts. Obviously it was rude and inappropriate behaviour, 'time and place', mixed company etc.

Anyway, be thankful your outer labia were not cut off like a lot of guys have had their foreskin removed for these 'hygene' purposes. I even saw on tv the other day a mother deciding she wanted it done to her child for 'cosmetic' reasons. The feminists heads would explode if this kind of attitude were expressed with such acceptance with regards to female genitals.

'both my sons who at, respectively, 11 and 9, had always wanted to marry every girl in the playground,suddenly announced girls were "icky" and "disgusting" '
Ah that brings me back to those primary school days. There isn't a girl alive who hasn't described boys as gross, dirty, smelly etc...

Foxy,
While you support my idea that we all feel the same, the point that bothers me so much is that I - a woman - had even to ask this question.

If it affects us all like this then why do so many of us say nothing? The fact that in a thread asking what other women think, you are the only woman to respond casts up even more questions in my mind.

That this particular incident occurred in a political situation I find even more shaming. One could, I guess, argue political expediency - but what about all the women who stand around - in playgrounds, on campuses, in pubs, at parties and barbies - when allusions to the same subject are made, and say nothing? Why? Is our secret fear that if we
protest all the men present are going to tell us that we really do smell offensive and we'll be even more publicly humiliated?

Forest - thank you for your response. You are correct too, in naming part of my emotion as anger, which I hadn't fully accepted. But puzzlement and confusion are what led me to pose the question.

Usual Suspect. I appreciate that your posts seek to draw attention to gender equality but in this instance I am unsure that there is a male equalizer - which is why I wanted to hear from other women. I know what you say is true - that there is some reference made sometimes to men. But the point I was making was that right from childhood females learn that there is something nasty about the most feminine aspect of themselves. Unarguably the deodorants, cleaning cloths and sprays on the market for "feminine hygiene" are all directed at women. Equating the "boy germs-girl germs" phase of childhood is not quite the same thing.

Romany, not sure what you’re getting at here; all attractive women smell good. Chair sniffing is just one of those weird fetishes (didn’t realise there was one relating to furniture, but one lives and learns). Don’t women have any they can share here? I notice the only woman that responded, mentioned not a single one.

Romany, I was going to leave this one alone - your question was directed at other women. I'm obviously not doing so well at staying away :)

I don't know if this is part of your thinking but it's what came to mind reading your last post.

I think that we are all taught in one form or another that there is something nasty about our primary sexual organs. I'd not realised how much of an issue the fish smell thing was, it's not a comment I've heard often (but I have heard it). The male equivalent is probably males being told how ugly penis's and ball sacks are. A message that is drummed in.

Are the origins of this stuff in attempts to reinforce body taboo's and control human sexuality? The message although delivered differently is to keep those parts of our bodies to ourselves, that they are a source of shame and somehow dirty.

R0bert

As a chick, I honestly didn't feel an undercurrent of embarrassment. I honestly just thought the guy was a d!ckwad. To be gender neutral, I would call him the female equivalent of d!ck, but I think I'd get deleted, even with a masterfully placed punctuation mark. But you guys know what I mean, right?

Just to verify I'm not one of those "feminazis" who doesn't have a "sense" of "humour", I asked my (all male, baby) partner if he thought it was funny. "Look, maybe if you'd never actually talked to a woman in your whole life," he said, "and maybe if your best friend did it, and maybe if you were seventeen years old, it might be funny. Otherwise, if you were in that room when that guy sniffed that chair, you'd pretty much just think he was a d!ckwad."

I think those guys who find it hilarious to sniff chairs and those chicks who make yucky faces when they're talking about d!ck cheese should get together. Do a favour for the rest of us.

I think sexy stuff smells sexy, myself.

ROMANY: I'd say the problem belongs to the politician who sniffed the chair. It doesnt seem like the act of a normal person.

The genitals of women or men have a certain smell and shape. Thats the way nature designed it. Deal with it people. I'd hate to see people who get in a silly tizzy about this deal with something really bad happening to them.

Romany

The behaviour of the WA politician, has ultimately been more of an embarrassment for him - an adult male has 'outed' himself as having all the maturity of an acne ridden adolescent. Take heart that at least these days such behaviour is publicly disapproved of and no doubt at the next election he will receive appropriate castigation.

In an ideal world where we regarded our sexuality and genitalia as acceptable and normal, 'chair-sniffing' wouldn't even occur as an idea, let alone humourous.

At least now we can discuss this 'd1ckwad', whereas not so long ago women would've had to tolerate such behaviour in silence.

As for the school playground, such behaviour starts at home and it is up to the parents to make clear that little boys and girls are not nasty or smelly as I am sure you are doing with your boys.

Cheers

Romany,

I honestlty think it is you who has turned a situation about bad taste in jokes into some sort of a gender issue, and I was attempting to illustrate that this isn't really the case.

'if we protest all the men present are going to tell us that we really do smell offensive and we'll be even more publicly humiliated?
'
This I can understand. It reminds me of the difficulty a guy might have about objecting to the little pinky speeding campaign...

Dear Romany,

I'm sorry that you feel so upset about this issue.

As I said in my earlier post - most women would find the chair-sniffing incident offensive. However the reason very few would actually say anything would be due to the fact that most women would probably feel that the man's an 'A...se hole' and not worthy of much attention. (you know, - a 'Sam Newman' type).

Best ignored.

Best ignored? Sorry Foxy, I feel like I'm chasing you round the boards disagreeing with you, but I REALLY disagree with this being activity that is best ignored. As Romany points out, ignoring this kind of behaviour — tactfully turning away from dickheadery — is what women have traditionally been taught to do. Ignoring it, I believe, is the worst thing we can do.

The guy obviously thought he was pretty funny and he can do what he likes. But that doesn't mean the rest of us have to ignore it, or pretend we find these kind of hijinks hilarious so as to be sure that we're not seen as bad sports. We should (as has been done) out him, write about him, lobby for others not to vote for him. We should let it be known that we want our politicians to be intelligent, enlightened, resourceful and erudite.

At least that's what I reckon.

Vanilla: lol

Vanilla, before you “out” Buswell, could I suggest that his actions need to be put into context.

I’m guessing that you don’t know (I certainly don’t) what good side he may have to his character, what good things he may have done in his life, what talents he has that have won him the WA Liberal leadership or what potential he might have for being a good leader or achieving significant things in the future that might be compromised or prevented if people drag him down due to what are really very minor indiscretions.

Let’s be careful here.

Guys -
Look, I'm not particularly upset about some random guy. Hell, I'd never even heard of him until I read the Julie Vickers thread. But, reading about it and the other women present who didn't object, and then reading posts from people saying things like all their friends and colleagues thought it a huge joke; that women who didn't think it was funny had no sense of humour; and that women should lighten up, got me thinking.

I wondered how other women felt about these kinds of incidents(plural). How it made them feel and why we didn't have the guts to stand up and say very firmly and very loudly if we find it unacceptable. Why express our feeling secretly and privately - in this case in a polling booth. This guy, and the guys who talk about women's bicycle seats, etc etc. are drickwads as Vanilla so accurately observed.

So yeah, Usual Suspect, in as much as I'm asking other women their feelings about something that women experience its a gendered thing.
Now Robert says men commonly get it drummed into them that their genitals are ugly so to even it up maybe on another thread men can see how that makes them feel?

Robert, I was trying to think of something analagous to walking into a chemist and finding vaginal deodorants etc. and thought, in light of the perceived ugliness problem...maybe, there could be little make-up kits for a prettier penis? Spangles and little silver stars? Or a Mr. Potato Head-type kit for complete disguise?....Ah I'm sorry, its late. I'm tired .(but you gotta admit the idea has possibilities...)

Romany, I thought the Mister Potato Head thing was a good idea but then a sack of spuds could make it worse. :(

The issue boils down to unhealthy attitudes about sexuality. Sexuality is something to be kept to dark places and snickered about if you want to be daring - or so some seem to believe. If sexuality is treated as shameful then it will attract that kind of attitude and behaviour.

R0bert

Dear Vanilla,

I don't have a problem with your disagreeing with me at all.

However I did not mean to imply that the incident should be ignored, -only the man - who was behaving like an idiot. - I felt that making a big deal out of his behaviour would give him more publicity than he deserved. (An actor does not like playing to an empty house).

But in retrospect - I realize that it's a very thin line, and dividing the incident from the man is not quite feasible.

Ludwig: Sure, I take your point. We shouldn't damn the guy on one incident.

Having said that, you inspired me to research Mr Buswell, and now I REALLY dislike him. He comes across as a small town dealmaker of no discernible talent but enough chutzpah to secure party leadership. If anyone knows of one benefit he's produced for his constituents, I'd love to hear it.

In the same way that I object to the term "side effects" when it comes to medication (they're all effects — one effect might be to reduce the side of your pulsating brain tumour, another to make you chuck your guts up every morning, but they're still both effects of that little tablet), I also don't read Mr Buswell's actions as an aberration. There have been several incidents, and it seems to me that they were pretty much in character.

To me, this incident also threads in to the Aussie insistence on choosing pollies who are "good blokes" we can "relate to". God forbid we'd want to elect somebody intellectually and practically impressive. Nah, you just want the kind of bloke you feel like you could have a beer wiv, dunchya?

AND ANOTHER THING that bothers me is the whole sense of humour thing. People who dig this kind of stuff seem to think that not finding a latent fear of women's power (which this most certainly is) quite the gag, then this means one *does not even have* a sense of humour. Why is this so? Why can't we just have different senses of humour? Do I go around to their houses while their sides are splitting watching Funniest Home Videos and say, "Quick! They playing Extras repeats on ABC2 and it's the episode where Sir Ian McKellan acts all retarded! Or don't you have a sense of humour??"

P.S. Ludwig, I hope it didn't seem like this whole diatribe was directed at you. I meant to say, yes, good point Ludwig, then launch into the diatribe. Which was more directed at the universe.

I think you’re wrong Vanilla: we’d no more like to “‘ave a beer whiff Troy”, than you would go clubbing with Paris. After the publicity, we’re no more inclined to vote for him, then you would audition to be her new best friend.

We disown him, but equally recognise that democracy can have some negative “side effects”.

Romany

"Anyone else who feels indignant at having to prove what a good sport she is and how she has a great sense of humour when actually she feels quite shirty and really, really, does not think it is even slightly funny?"

Yes, Romany, as one of the women critical of Troy Buswell on the Chair-sniffer Bra-snapper thread and patronisingly told to “lighten up”, I can very much relate to your question. I don’t think it was intentional, but I was definitely made to feel I’d made a big deal out of something others thought was trivial and joke worthy rather than something to condemn.

I consider myself to have a good sense of humour in most situations but find this whole Troy Buswell thing quite unfunny. You mentioned embarrassment. I think I’m annoyed more than embarrassed. Annoyed that a puerile tasteless act like this can be laughed off as nothing more than a jokey blokey harmless bit of fun.

Vanilla

“The guy obviously thought he was pretty funny and he can do what he likes. But that doesn't mean the rest of us have to ignore it, or pretend we find these kind of hijinks hilarious so as to be sure that we're not seen as bad sports. We should (as has been done) out him, write about him, lobby for others not to vote for him. We should let it be known that we want our politicians to be intelligent, enlightened, resourceful and erudite.”

As you so often do, Vanilla, you've nabbed it perfectly!

“I also don't read Mr Buswell's actions as an aberration.”

I agree. These latest incidents continue a pattern of behaviour. As does his blatant denying of the truth.

“Just to verify I'm not one of those ‘feminazis’ who doesn't have a ‘sense’ of ‘humour’, “

I find this an odd statement, Vanilla, especially on this thread. To me, it just gives oxygen to those out there quick to lampoon any female standing her ground on issues like this one.

Two things have surfaced for me so far in this thread. The first is that most of you are really nice people who have had limited exposure to the seamier side of life. Someone even regarded this as a "fetish" that they had been unaware existed.

The second is that people still seem to think my reason for posting is connected primarily with this Buswell character and that its all just a storm in a tea-cup e.g. "I'd hate to see people who get in a silly tizzy about this deal with something really bad happening to them."

The reason I entitled this thread "What do other WOMEN think?" is that I really wanted to know. Buswell was pertinent but not the main focus of what I wanted to deal with. But while I am not tarring all male posters with the same brush it seems that any threads that deal with women or womens concerns (see the bulldust currently settling all over the maternity leave thread!) get pushed into the same worn tracks over and over again - and usually by the same people. Instead of being free to exchange ideas we women spend most of our time on any female-centred discussion arguing against the same old things. Sadly it seems this thread is slowly being pushed out of shape too.

We really do have more to contribute than that. And if we weren't being held accountable for all the other women who have caused such posters grief, annoyance, tragedy or irritation we could talk about so much more.

Sometimes I just feel like shouting "Get off my back. You don't even know me. I am not HER!" whoever she was. The day I, or Vanilla or Bronwyn or Foxy et. al. start accusing men en masse of being vicious, spiteful, greedy, stupid, nazi, spoilt or all the other things each of us has been called then go ahead. Have a field day. Get stuck in. But until then give it a break.

Dear Romany,

I'm glad that you brought up the 'paid maternity leave' thread currently being filled with all sorts of male comments.

It's interesting though, how many women have actually contributed to this topic?

Romany, Foxy,

Can you please explain what 'male' comments you are finding so upsetting in the maternity leave thread? Maternity leave affects men too, why do you think they should not have their say?

'And if we weren't being held accountable for all the other women who have caused such posters grief, annoyance, tragedy or irritation we could talk about so much more.
'
The only thread that dealt with DV by women against men got PLEANTY of women guilty of exactly what you are complaining about here!

I can see your frustration though. But Perhaps then you can understand the many men brought up in the time of feminism that feel they have been held accountable daily for every sin of the patriachy. It's very hard to be brought up being told you're the violent, potential rapist, non caring parent, female oppressor, responsible for all wars and human misery. At the same time hearing the messages given to the 'special' sex, who can 'do anything' and deserves everything.

'Instead of being free to exchange ideas we women spend most of our time on any female-centred discussion arguing against the same old things'

'filled with all sorts of male comments'

Ok. I get it. You only really want to hear from women, and you see men's input as boring and predictable. Perhaps you should start a woman's blog where you only had to talk with women?

You say you are 'arguing against the same old things', but why cant you see that to many men, your themes and topics are 'the same old critisisms' of men. Why is it so offensive for men to attempt to explain from a man's perspective? Perhaps it's a habit of women being brought up with everything they say being 'validated'? Maybe it's a habit of men being brought up having to justify and apologise for being men?

I have observed the women posters do this validating business before putting forward their arguments. Maybe that's where I am going wrong.

Maybe Usual Suspect, whom I presume is male, missed the title of the thread: "What do other Women Think"?

Clearly, Romany was seeking the opinion of other women concerning an issue that came up in another discussion. I haven't participated in this thread until now because I felt to do so would detract from Romany's intent - although that doesn't seem to have deterred Usual Suspect, who from the outset has attempted to alter the subject to include his (male) perspective.

While I'm here, let me just say that I agree with those who suggest that the problem arises from sexual repression in general, and old taboos about female genitalia and sexuality in particular. In my (masculine) experience, both the smell and taste of women is highly stimulating sexually.

Fish don't do the same for me :)

You're a good little boy CJ. You're gorgeous the way you suck up to the female posters. Isn't he adorable girls! I bet he makes mean cucumber sandwiches!

Dear CJ,

You're a breath of fresh air as always.

Usual Suspect,

You've missed the point that I was trying to make to Romany - and as always only see things from the 'male perspective,' as CJ pointed out.
Get rid of the chip on your shoulder.

The previous thread dealing with
'Prepaid Maternity Leave,' was supposed to be about the pros and cons of the topic. Yet you felt obliged to bring in 'Menstruation' and 'Penis Tax,' taking the discussion to another level.

This 'general' section is getting worse and worse. I was so stunned by the chair sniffing episode, I said nothing. But now,Romany thinks it's a good subject for discussion.

The only thing she has done is to highlight a not very nice aspect of the female of the species. It's natural, of course, but this sort of thing will only make some females feel more insecure.

It might also make a few of you realise that you are not as desirable as you think you are, after the first rush of blood to the also revolting male bits.

I suppose the look and feel of young women overcomes any thought of the problems caused by the menstrual cycle - for a while.

Dear Usual Suspect,

I've just read your last post addressed to CJ.

It appears to me that there's a bit of resentment involved in your comments.

Aren't you successful with the ladies?

That would of course explain everything!

Foxy,

'You're a breath of fresh air as always.'
Ah, isn't that nice.

Regardles of what you think, I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I was serious about the menstuation leave too. The Penis tax was a bit of a joke, and detracted from the rest of my argument, but who cares, lighten up, nobody was addressing my other serious arguments anyway.

And I don't object to maternity leave because I am male. My family would gain a lot financially if it were brought in. You seem to think that only a man would object to maternity leave.

Ah, if only those nasty men posters would just agree with all feminist proposals, not joke about, be more like CJ, not touch any topic that is explicitly for women only, never be critical of women, and just be supportive of every input the women posters had we could avoid so much trouble.

'It appears to me that there's a bit of resentment involved in your comments. Aren't you successful with the ladies? That would of course explain everything!'

Have been quite successful thanks, but I'm with long term partner now. She doesn't believe in Maternity leave either BTW. No resentment, just pity really. Actually I think CJ sees himself as a SNAG, or the 'nice' guy who is better than all the other 'male' posters, with their 'male' comments. He does suck up to any female poster's posts.

It's actually a good technique he probably found quite successful for getting attention at uni hanging out with the women's studies chicks. What he probably didn't know was that they all thought he was a great friend, while they were shagging that sexist chauvinist mans man behind his back.

I am surprised at such hostility from you though. Personal attacks aren't normally your style. I even remember a topic you started about not using personal insults, or maybe that was someone else. I must have really gotten to you. Oh well, at least CJ will come to your aide! He's such a nice boy!

Dear Usual Suspect,

OK, I admit it. You got to me. You pushed the right buttons.

Look, I wish that we could keep things on an even keel - and not divide ourselves into groups "us" and "them," without demeaning
either one.

They say that, "sticks and stones..." But words do hurt. Gestures do hurt. Jokes do hurt. And any of us that have been on the receiving end knows what it feels like.

You're picking on CJ - Why? You say that he sucks up to females on this forum. That's not true. CJ often disagrees, but he usually comes up with a very balanced, rational, point of view. As does Robert.

Anyway, I don't want to side-track Romany's subject so I'll end this
discussion with you.

And, by the way, my children were born in Los Angeles - (everything
paid for by my husband and I). Just so that you know - we too have nothing to gain from 'Prepaid Maternity Leave.'

Cheers.

People! People! People!

Usual Suspect, CJ isn't sucking up to anyone. All he said was that he understood Romany was seeking female feedback, and said he found nothing offensive about lady odours. So what? Some people don't.

Someone accused me on another thread of sucking up to the boys. I found the accusation rather ridiculous. I'm an adult, it's a discussion, and I state my point of view. Sometimes passionately, sure, but I think we're all beyond "sides" here.

I still think Romany's initial point was an excellent one. Women are encouraged to feel bad about their smell of their vajayjays. I think the problem on this board, and the reason I try to avoid gender-specific OLO discussions these days, is that some posters read any statement about a woman as being an attack on men, and/or think that all discussion about women should be offset by making similar points about men. In this case, we were only four posts in before Usual Suspect wanted to bring in insults directed at males. That's an interesting conversation to have, but it is off-topic on this thread.

I think another general problem is that some posters read Romany's post as an attack on men. It is NOT an attack on men. It is an attack on Troy Buswell; some men who, like Mr Buswell, continue to believe its hilarious to say ladies bits are stinky despite being over the age of fifteen; and those pharmaceutical companies and chemists who seek to exploit the insecurity that results from the remarks of the Troy Buswells of this world. I thought it was an excellent topic, as it's rarely talked about.

It's not a matter of "nasty men posters" and being unilaterally supported, just a matter of approaching the topic without rancour or prejudice. Like Romany, I often feel like saying, "I'm not HER — whoever it is you're arguing with." I feel like I'm on a constant collision course with a preconception.

But I've pretty much given up anyway.

Usual Suspect:-

"Ok. I get it. You only really want to hear from women..." At last! You understand the title of the thread!
"...and you see men's input as boring and predictable"
Nope, not "men’s" just "some men’s". For instance, there was once a contributor called Whitty who said all the same things you say:

U.S: "...Perhaps then you can understand the many men brought up in the time of feminism that feel they have been held accountable daily for every sin of the patriarchy"

Whitty: " I know I have felt like I've been asked to apologise for the sins of all men throughout history" "all the feminist PC drivel a whole generation of guys were brought up with while constantly apologising for being a man."

See? Some of you do sound just the same. And carry exactly the same chips around on your shoulders. Though, admittedly, Whitty doesn’t seem to post any more. He actually "resigned" from OLO just before you started to contribute.

To rephrase my last post: – its tough that people like you and Whitty were made to feel like that by some women. But why flay all of us? WE WEREN’T THERE. We don’t expect men to be apologetic about their masculinity. Nor hold them responsible for any of the shite that may have gone down in our lives.

"It's very hard to be brought up being told you're the violent, potential rapist, non caring parent, female oppressor, responsible for all wars and human misery".

Its also not a walk in the park being told you’re worthless, stupid, ignorant, a failure as a parent and as a woman, a waste of skin, and that the world would be better off without you. But it was bad enough letting myself be brainwashed. To let it continue to affect me even now would be admitting I was all those things. While venting my feelings on total strangers instead of the person/s concerned would be allowing their power to spread.

So yeah. It does annoy me that discussions get sidetracked because of other people's unresolved issues.

CJ made a fish joke. Naughty, naughty

Vanilla,

Romany could have just let the topic be about how she felt about the chair sniffing. She didn't. She stated 'I had never heard of the possibility in relation to men'. I gave her an example. What the hell is wrong with that?

She also used a cross example of Smegma for men, comparing her exposure (and I assume by implication her understanding of the general population) to that of feminine fish smell. i.e. women the downtrodden made to feel bad about their bodies, but not men.

I really think the gender comparison was set up by the above, and I have been unfairly castigated for 'changing the topic', where I was addressing the original premise made by Romany that men and women are treated differently. Regardless I take your point this is a 'female only' thread, and males are not welcome. Unless they agree like CJ of course.

Anyway, as I said, the only thread that dealt with DV by women against men got PLEANTY of women guilty of exactly what all you women are complaining about here.

Romany,

'You understand the title of the thread!'
Not just this thread. I mean in general, since you say other threads are 'filled with all sorts of 'male' comments'

'See? Some of you do sound just the same.'
That's because we are one and the same. And the reason for the change in moniker is CJ attacking my mother, and me feeling my name being too revealing if these kind of attacks continue. I came back because I thought I should not let myself be bullied off this forum, but now I think life is too short, and I should have kept to my original decision.

Romany, I haven't contributed much to this thread. Vanilla on the whole expressed precisely how I feel.

But then some males wanted to get some snide comments in. Mr Right topped it of.

I was lucky in that both my parents had no hang ups about any body parts. I wasn't made aware of smelly body parts. The only smelly issues were in regard to stinky feet after a day in closed shoes!

Consequently I cannot say I've ever felt personally embarrassed at juvenile 'humour' of the type you described. Only feel a feeling of distaste, a grown man with an emotional/psychological age of a particularly immature teenager. He's the one who should feel deeply embarrassed.

So, not embarrassed, revolted yes and very aware that it is fear of women and lack of self confidence why some grown males make these kind of 'jokes'.

That a person like that can be a party leader speaks volumes about the calibre of talent the WA liberals have. Whether male or female, you wouldn't want to publicly admit voting for somebody like that.

US: "She stated 'I had never heard of the possibility in relation to men'. I gave her an example. What the hell is wrong with that?"

There's nothing wrong with it. But Romany wasn't searching for examples, she was talking about her life experience. Just because you had a different experience doesn't mean she was lying about her own. And it's disingenuous to suggest you just "gave her an example" — you attributed a motive to her post then assigned it "ridiculous". You brought up male circumcision in order to point out women have it easier than men. In short, the very fact that she'd posted about her experience seemed to immediately piss you off.

US: "Regardless I take your point this is a 'female only' thread, and males are not welcome. Unless they agree like CJ of course."

That wasn't my point, and that's kind of childish.

US: "Anyway, as I said, the only thread that dealt with DV by women against men got PLEANTY of women guilty of exactly what all you women are complaining about here."

Yeah, but so what? Are you saying the same people who are on this thread were on that thread? I think if you want to accuse someone of being hypocritical I think you need to be upfront about it and use examples. I for one was not involved in that other thread (I don't think so, anyway), so I'm not sure why I keep hearing about it.

I really don't think you're being "unfairly castigated". It's an argument. I'm sure you're not going to be impressed by my cod-psychology but you've seemed from your first post to feel angry and attacked more than perhaps one would expect given the posts that have been flying about. No one thinks you are a "potential rapist" here. No one is calling you "responsible for all wars and human misery". The post is about whether women carry shame and embarrassment around because of the way they smell.

Bronwyn: I was actually being facetious about being a feminazi — it just didn't come across proper!

"Romany could have just let the topic be about how she felt about the chair sniffing."

Excuse me? I could have substituted the topic I wanted to explore for another one? Well yeah, I guess. Come to that I "could have just let the topic be" about bee keeping or flower arranging too. But I wanted (how many times have I now said this?) to hear from other women to see what their experiences were and if they felt the same as I did or if it was just me. As Vanilla said, its not - for obvious reasons, I would have thought - something often discussed.

"women the downtrodden made to feel bad about their bodies, but not men." Wot the…? Do you still not understand I was addressing other women? THAT was my experience. Was theirs the same? Men and their experiences,believe it or not, were not my point of reference.
Women the downtrodden? How on the gods green earth do you extrapolate "downtrodden"?

If, by that, you are insinuating that I am trying to claim victim status for women then I think that is a classic case of transferal: You appear to consider yourself a victim of feminism - you will not let us forget it.

In any case, Robert, with no rancour, animosity or accusations put forward a male pov - which I took on board and we both had a go at diffusing the moment of potential embarrassment and moved on.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...another pertinent post has crept in, inserted itself totally unregarded and lies there damning " a not very nice aspect of the female of the species."

"It might also make a few of you realise that you are not as desirable as you think you are, after the first rush of blood to the also revolting male bits." Exactly

Usual Suspect/Whitty: << ...now I think life is too short >>

Apologies in advance, but in the spirit of Whitty's puerile attacks on me, might I suggest that perhaps it is not life that is too short in this case?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

P.S. Whitty - it was you who brought your feminist mother into OLO discussions in the first place.

Romany "Meanwhile, back at the ranch...another pertinent post has crept in, inserted itself totally unregarded and lies there damning"

I started to respond to that poster and the tone of the response which was trying to get to the keyboard was one I thought I might later regret. At a guess another arrogant fundy christian.

To the topic at hand, I've not done extensive odor or taste testing nor have I done any chasing to see what research has been done.

From my own admittedly small sample of experience some are like honey and some are significantly more bitter. My own theory is that the taste relates to how happy the owner chooses to be (and not just at that moment). That might explain why religious extremists seem to find it all so revolting.

R0bert

Usual Suspect

"You're a good little boy CJ. You're gorgeous the way you suck up to the female posters."

I think this churlish little comment reveals far more about you, US, than it does about CJ. He certainly doesn't strike me as the sort of person to "suck up to" anyone.

"It's actually a good technique he probably found quite successful for getting attention at uni hanging out with the women's studies chicks. What he probably didn't know was that they all thought he was a great friend, while they were shagging that sexist chauvinist mans man behind his back."

As one female poster whose uni days are well in the past and who rightly or wrongly considers herself much older and wiser, that "sexist chauvinist mans man" you speak of might have had some attraction way back then, but certainly doesn't hold a candle now!

Mr Always Right

"a not very nice aspect of the female of the species."

It amazes me how a discussion that only came into existence in the first place due to the puerile actions of one immature male can so quickly be turned on its head to become yet again an attack on women. Why are women the focus of negativity here? However unrepresentative it might have been, it is male behaviour at fault here. That's where the real smell is in this whole grubby little episode.

At the risk of being castigated, it's not "male behaviour" that's "at fault", it's the humorless response to a pretty poor gag. The fact is that men demonstrably find women attractive. Women ditto for men. It's also a fact that both genders have bits and pieces that make smells. Men tend to fart a lot, apparently, if the women I've known are any guide. We also tend to be "stinky", I'm told, to the extent that one of my mates is not allowed into the house after work until he showers downstairs because his wife "can't stand the smell". I have another whose wife makes a point of keeping a room deodorising spray handy "for when you and your mates start farting". Should I be as insulted as the OP?

Mr Right: "It might also make a few of you realise that you are not as desirable as you think you are..."

This so obviously reflects personal bitterness that it just washed over me. Either the guy really doesn't like sex with women, or he's just trying to "stir things up", or (most likely) he has had hurtful emotional experiences with women and blames the whole gender. Either way I just thought we were all ignoring it.

And I think males bits are beautiful.

Antiseptic,

I think you and Bronwyn meant the same thing. She said, "However unrepresentative it might have been, it is male behaviour at fault here." That is, it's not male behaviour in general but *A* male's behaviour. And his idiot friends.

From the stories you've told here and elsewhere, I can safely say you know the most hideous group of women I've ever heard of. (I hope this isn't too offensive — I gather they're wives of friends rather than actual friends?) I don't think you should be offended by their dumb ideas, but then I am not offended by Troy Buswell either — I just think he's an idiot.

For a start, if these women think men fart more than women they are in need of a basic medical textbook. Then perhaps some instruction on how to negotiate within a marriage — all members of a family should be able to feel comfortable in any room, I would have thought, so if one group really is going to make a room unpleasant why isn't up to them to air it out? My husband is a bigger clean-freak than me, so if I've been sitting in my study all day and it's got a bit stuffy and pongy and there's paper everywhere, I clean it up and air it out a bit before he wants to use it. Just good manners, innit?

If my partner made me shower before greeting them because they couldn't stand my smell, I think I'd be thinking they/we needed some time on the couch. That isn't a happy marriage, surely?

Ah Antiseptic, I just reread your post and realise you point is that what is at fault is *women's* humourless response to Buswell's pretty poor gag.

In that case I disagree with you. I thought my response was rather funny in parts.

Vanilla and Robert,

Yeah, you're right re Mr. Right. But actually I was looking for a way to prevent this from turning into a forum for U.S. to once more fight his personal demons in public.

Antiseptic. Did you read through all the posts here? We don't find it funny. Why does this make us humourless? I'm sure that if you hang around with people who are so hung up on the natural human function of expelling excess gas you have probably come across people who find anything to do with THAT subject as excrutiatingly funny as they did when they were 7 or 8. Do you? If not, does this mean you are humorless - or simply that you are are an adult? If so, well then we obviously have different senses of humour. Its why some people fall in a heap over Monty Python and others prefer Jim Carey.

Why must we accept something we find bad taste/juvenile/insulting or whatever? So far not one woman here has said she finds such behaviour amusing but on other threads many of these same women have amply demonstrated that their sense of humour is alive and well - and kicking ass.

p.s I agree with Vanilla too (while hoping these women you so often allude to are not bosom-buddies)that your friends' wives don't seem to have much in common with me or the regular female posters here. Why on earth judge us because of them. Do you think all men fit into one particular mould and all women in another?

Romany: "Did you read through all the posts here? We don't find it funny. Why does this make us humourless?"

That much is obvious. Did you read my own comment? I make an effort to make my point clear and I don't think I failed this time. I referred to your "humourless response", which it is. No comment on your general humour at all, although I'm beginning to think I may have been a bit close to the bone in that regard as well.

Romany: "on other threads many of these same women have amply demonstrated that their sense of humour is alive and well - and kicking ass."

I don't disagree. Isn't it a shame you can't follow their example.

My point was to illustrate the double standard that you are trying to manufacture.

An example: "your friends' wives don't seem to have much in common with me or the regular female posters here. Why on earth judge us because of them"

Erm... Buswell has little in common with me or most of the regular male posters here, why on earth judge us because of him?

The fact is that men and women, as Foxy pointed out in another thread are going to both attract poor-taste gags about their "failings" from members of the opposite gender. It is a perfectly normal human response to joke about "them", whoever they may be. Having said that, as a politician who expects to have to convince the 50% of voters who are women to vote for him, it was a particularly poorly-thought-out action. Mind you, he apparently went the grope on a male member (sry, couldn't resist) as well.

Do try to lighten up.

Vanilla: "I can safely say you know the most hideous group of women I've ever heard of."

What a lot of tosh. I know many, many women, some of whom are nice and some of whom I'd not give the time of day. I believe I may have mentioned about 3 or 4 of them. Nice generalisation, but no prize for derailing the debate, dear.

Antisecptic: "Erm... Buswell has little in common with me or most of the regular male posters here, why on earth judge us because of him?"

But no one has. Romany initially referred to "this incident and others of its kind" — no one regards this as anything to do with men in general. I don't know how many men indulge in these kinds of incidents, but I suspect it would be a gazillioneth of a per cent. I haven't read any feminist commentator in the meeja judge all men by Busell's standard either.

I certainly believe few men are at his snakebelly level. That's why we get irritated when Usual Suspect says women think all men are potential rapists or you say women think men stink. We simply don't.

I didn't mean to generalise about your friends, but the only group of women I've heard you mention seem like weird ladies. "Men tend to fart a lot, apparently, if the women I've known are any guide." The women you know are not useful guides on this issue.

Romany,

I think the other idea that's got lost in the bickering is that of chemists and commerce. As we know, I do think we must have reclaimed our stinky ladies bits because of the reduction in the amount of douches chemists sell and advertisements for them. While I know the products still exist, you never see an ad for them in women's mags these day, whereas old Women's Weeklys are full of ads for products that enhance your feminine freshness.

There's something quite profoundly old-fashioned about Buswell.

Vanilla--There's something quite profoundly old-fashioned about Buswell.

Could that be shades of 'Les Paterson' type humour?

digiwigi: "Could that be shades of 'Les Paterson' type humour?"

Well, I am a fan of the yarts.

CJ,

I think people who like to joke about the 'size' of others are probably insecure about their own size. Regardless, I apologise for my comments here, I have been holding a grudge. My mother actually died earlier this year, hence my over-emotional reaction to your comments previously. Obviously you weren't to know.

To Romany,
'I could have substituted the topic I wanted to explore for another one?
You're being facetious?

'Men and their experiences,believe it or not, were not my point of reference.'
This is exactly my point that you decided to deliberately misconstrue. I was trying to say just that. You decided to use men as a point of reference, setting up a gender comparison, and that leaving out the comparison your beef with my comments would be understandable. I accept my post wasn't in the 'spirit' of the wider argument you were trying to make, but it's a plain lie to say you didn't use men as a point of reference.

To Vanilla, Romany, CJ,

I went over the top with my comments and rambled off topic in the end. I apologise for this. But do you guys have any idea how conceited you sound when you propose to talk about the 'issues' or 'demons' of other posters. I mean really, who the hell do you think you are? I think Ginx might have been right on the money in the Henson thread about you Vanilla.

I am leaving for good this time as I find all these personal attacks too upsetting. I certainly have a way with people. Anyway, I realise now that anything I have to say has no value on OLO, given the dominate preconception of me having 'issues'.

The OLO feminist posse of amateur psychologists has driven this 'misogynist' out of town!

Usual Suspect (if you're still around)
"But do you guys have any idea how conceited you sound when you propose to talk about the 'issues' or 'demons' of other posters. I mean really, who the hell do you think you are? I think Ginx might have been right on the money in the Henson thread about you Vanilla."

Perhaps she was. But I haven't discussed your demons or issues, and I wouldn't presume to. I observed that you seemed angrier than the situation warranted, and I still think that. Anyway. I thought you were a good bloke when you were Whitty and I still do — good luck with your little 'un.

Dear Usual Suspect,

Please re-consider leaving the Forum.

You're not the only one who at times has felt that you should leave,
because of the strength of some opinions directed at you.

But don't take it personally. I know it's easier said than done,
and I'm the last person qualified to give advice. However on
Forums like these we need (desperately need) a variety of opinions.
And your contribution has always presented a different perspective on things, for which I for one am appreciative. We don't always have to agree - but we should value differing opinions.

If we would all agree with each other constantly, how boring would that be, and how would we ever learn and grow?

Take some time off, if you need it, by all means.

But please come back - you are needed.

Usual Suspect

"Anyway. I thought you were a good bloke when you were Whitty and I still do."

I agree with Vanilla and endorse both hers and Foxy's comments. Even though I too have been on the receiving end of some withering attacks from you at times, I wouldn't like to see you leave either. We need diversity of opinion especially when it's well thought out as your arguments were. I can still recall clearly the good debate we had going on the Fair Go for Women thread at one stage. Us women won the day of course!! But you were one in particular I remember who forced us to really work at honing our arguments. Great mental gymnastics! It's what OLO is all about. How could you walk away from that?

I just took a look in here to see why Usual Suspect made his comment elsewhere.

The abuse and accusations against him were a bit rich. They are always made when women feel themselves criticised or on the defensive. Women are so used to being coddled by society and handled with velvet gloves because of feminism that they are not used to seeing a man disagree with them or call them out or contradict them. So they call men misogynists, say they "must be small" etc. This is partly why feminism is so damaging, but it's not going to go awaythat easily.

However, the same is the case for male feminists, who step in and instantly attack the motives or character of the male making obscene insinuations. I'm tired of it. I raised the issue some weeks/months ago and I don't expect it to evaporate until the Federal Office for Women is abolished and all these issues are seen from a neutral perspective, not a sexist (pro-female) one.

For the record. Men are called such things as dogs when shown legitimate interest in women,are dirty even though they are biologically natural, they think with their dicks, smell disgusting and sweat like pigs... etc.