Nicky!
"Are we going to, or have we, create/d a sub-culture?"
There are some problems with some people. What can we do for them? In USA 1% of population is in prison soon very soon in USA the number of prisoners will increased as they spend they taxes for current and former wars and they have not money for social programs as every prisoner creates more prisoners.
Nicky! listen to me! I am atheist but I am humanist, do you remember what said Christ Jesus?"I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and gave me water, I was cold and you gave me cloths, I was in prison and you visited me" In these cases Nicky my suggestion is to understand and support these people, do not push them to the hell, let 's make their life the best we can do under our circumstances.
I AM A HUMANIST AND I WANT TO DIE AS A HUMANIST
regards
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Hi Antonios

I'm not disagreeing with you. But I wonder what the best way of delivering support to these people is. The reality is that there is a substantial number who are clearly unfit and irresponsible parents.

What happens to those children when the parents (and they do, I met many through my work in correctional/justice environments) spend what money they get on drugs and alcohol? At what point are those children not better off without those parents? The schools in the area I am referring to provide "Breakfast Clubs" and lunches because the children arrive at school hungry. One system does not fit all, that's the point I was seeking to make.

Cheers
Nicky

Cevelia “Col, I would think that the rule “no taxation without representation” does not apply here? Businesses do obviously benefit from other people’s kids.”

Who is talking about business C?

I am talking about all the other people who decide to bring children into the world but do not seek handouts from the taxpayer and who would rather bring their children up with no taint of socialism to contaminate their lives.

“My view still is than children are innocent and should not have to live in poverty because their parents are irresponsible.”

And my view is you do not impoverish the rest of society to supply a gold plated safety net for those irresponsible parents. No one will ever guarantee no child will not live in poverty. Such ideals are fanciful and suffer the inevitable consequences of “diminishing returns”, the further they are pursued.

“Kids before money, not money before kids.”

And I believe in individual liberty before the needs of someone else’s kids.

You can phrase it any way you like but no one can implement the impossible dream, regardless of how much sincerity or sentimentality it is wrapped in.

Nicky “These people left school at 14 or 15, and are often illiterate as a result too.”

I have 2 daughters aged 27 and 24, both work, one is about to get married. Neither has a child.

The elder one was in school with a child pregnant at 14 then again at 16. She still comes in casual contact with then girl these days and is disgusted by that girls lack of values and subsequent decline into a chronic welfare case.

“Col, are these the people for whom you are advocating a "voucher" system?”

I think they would “qualify”.

“Are we going to, or have we, create/d a sub-culture?”

We are individually responsible for our actions.

With pride, through the extent of my actions, have produced responsible adult daughters.

It is the ignorant and selfish bastards, who want a handout at every turn, who produced the sub-culture you talk about.

My daughters and I just pay our taxes.

Nicky
You have right the only thing I can tell about it is understanding and maximum support to innocent children, may be the schools, teachers could detect and support children with problematic parents.
I supposed the children with problematic parents have many and various problems and each one of them needs different kind of support according to their parents problems.
Nicky I do not know many things about it and may be it could be good for these children if you open a new thread about this problem. May be we can promote these breakfast clubs, I do not know many things about breakfast clubs.
I PREFER TO SPENT MY TIME IN THREADS WITH THIS KIND OF ISSUES-PROBLEMS THAN TO WASTE MY TIME IF THERE IS GOD OR NOT.
I am very sorry for the "listen to me" I wanted to emphasize how important is for me the understanding, generosity and support to people in need, especially for the children.
REGARDS
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Hi all

Col, you are to be congratulated on your daughters. But the interesting question is where has the sub-culture problem come from? Welfare benefits being too easy?

In some of the communities in which I have worked, these are children having children, because they get (or got?) a several thousand dollar bonus for doing so. There is little or no thought of the future of that child, who should have the right to be able to rely on its parent/s for the development of values and directions.

The only person some of these people who know who has, or has had, a job are people like Community Service, Probation and Parole workers and teachers from school. They receive very cheap housing in circumstances that can really only be described as ghettos, accumulate drug debts that would scare the rest of us to death, and there never seem to be any consequences.

But who knows? Without the benefits of a stable family life and an education, there but for the grace of "God" may have been the rest of us.

Antonios, I wish I knew what the solution was. In many of these "ghetto" communities there are incredibly dedicated service workers who do what they can in terms of material help like food and clothing, and they try to engage these parents in some kind of self-awareness. But where I worked, these kids are growing into appalling young vandals. We had to regularly call the police to deal with them (young teenagers, missing from school) because they threaten aged pensioners for money and cigarettes. It is truly frightening. So what do we do?

Cheers
Nicky

Antonios,
I’m sorry to hear about your health problems. Hopefully, with today’s OH&S, things have improved for others, but that doesn’t erase the problems you have.
I wish you much success in your own business.

Nicky,
Thank you for sharing your experiences, these examples are truly shocking and heartbreaking.

Col,
“… all the other people who decide to bring children into the world but do not seek handouts from the taxpayer …”
I think paid maternity leave is more about the idea that both parents should be equally financially affected by having a child.
Even though the male and female jointly decide to have a baby, for biological reasons the female has been making financial sacrifices by taking time off work and missing out on income and on future income as well- superannuation.
The zeitgeist needs to move on and I don’t know how this disproportion can be balanced without introducing paid maternity leave.

“… do not impoverish the rest of society to supply a gold plated safety net for those irresponsible parents.”
Paid maternity leave is not about irresponsible parents; it will apply to responsible women who were working prior to becoming pregnant. It is not paid to bludgers, like the baby bonus is. I don’t agree with every facet of the safety net but I do agree with paid maternity leave for reasons mentioned previously.

“No one will ever guarantee no child will not live in poverty.”
I believe that child poverty can be greatly reduced. Other countries are doing better than Australia (I showed you the 2007 rates in our previous debate, where child poverty rates were worst in US and UK and best in the Netherlands followed by the Scandinavian countries).

Anyway, I accept the voucher system; at least the children will be fed and clothed. The examples Nicky gave are extremely disturbing :- (
At least getting rid of the baby bonus won’t encourage breeding by some people who should not be parents.
Do any of you know whether a voucher system has been successful in other countries?

Continued