As a culture we are gradually increasing our responsibility towards the environment. This greater awareness has resulted in changing our view of animals as produce to that of animals as vital beings with their own rights to a place on this planet.

I am not a vegetarian and as I am unlikely to change to such any time soon, I believe in responsible farming of animals raised for produce.

Topically, live export is a vexed subject. In order to effect trade we agree to export live animals in cramped conditions, for journeys over long distances for slaughter under conditions we would find inhumane and illegal here in Australia.

I am looking for solutions to end animal export.

How can farmers make a reasonable sale from animals without recourse to live export?

How can we encourage all farmers to breed animals in free range and free of chemicals and hormones?

I believe a humane approach to farming will, by evolution, result in the ethics of live export being questioned and eventually stopped.

As with organic farming of vegetables, there is a market demand for meat that is environmentally friendly, free of artificial additives, and grown and slaughtered humanely.

Ideas and input welcome.

Scout, good idea to start a new thread.

Just to inform you, Wendy is a nice lady, we had a long chat recently, she means well and cares, but reality does not
go away, when we close our eyes and wish it would.

The live trade from WA involves around 4 million sheep a year.
To call for its end, unless one can suggest real alternatives,
is pure fantasy. Thousands of peoples lives are involved here,
also millions of animals lives.

Wendy doesent have any solutions to the problem. She is following
her passion, but at the end of the day that is not going to
change things.

Quite frankly, I also think its a bit racist, to say that Arabs
are so primitive, that they cannot change past cultural practises.
I've seen Australia change dramatically in 30 years. Not that long
ago, meatworks here did not use stun guns, now they do. Even today,
sheep are slaughtered for meat in most Aussie shearing sheds, no
stun guns are used. Shearers will pop the odd sheep into the boot,
for their meat supply. City people are horrified by these things,
but in reality they happen in rural Australia every day.

MLA has a permanent vet in the Middle East, funded by farmers.
His role over there is to slowly change things and I think that
is happening. Saudi Arabia consumes around 10 million sheep a year.
They are not going to learn good welfare practises from Eritrea,
Somalia or Ethiopia, where they buy most of their sheep. So I think
that Australia is playing a positive role over there. But it takes
time, as we Aussies took time to change.

Scout, I live in the middle of this stuff, in rural WA. I don't
live on the Gold Coast. I see shearers here mistreating sheep and
I see farmers too scared to say anything, as they might not have any shearers, due to the labour crisis/resources boom in WA.

Our Aussie arses are not as clean, as many city slickers think.

Scout

Thank you. The Following is>

ONE OF A FEW GOOD MENS LETTER TO SENATOR FIELDING
The Letter Remains unanswered. SHAME

The Australian Catholic Study Circle for Animal Welfare

"The Ark in Australia”

PATRONS:

His Eminence Cardinal Edward Clancy

Emeritus Archbishop of Sydney Or Hugh JWirth

President RSPCA, Victoria & Australia

Chairman and Treasurer:

Mr John Drennan Vice-Chairman:

Mrs Margaret Denat Foundress (Australia):

Miss Marrion Craig

ABN: 93 676 785 175

4/35 Morrah Street Parkville VC 3052 Australia

Tel (03) 9347 2851

12 May, 2006

Senator Steve Fielding
Family First

255 Blackburn Road, Mount Waverley, VIC 3149

Dear Senator Fielding,

Re: Our meeting on Live Animal Export to the Middle East

On behalf of Wendy Lewthwaite (People Against Live Exports) and Mark Townend (CEO, RSPCA, Queensland) and myself, I wish to thank you for meeting us on 7 April and for your willingness to look Into the above matter.

It appears to us evident that the imperative to avoid - at the very least -gross cruelty to animals is implicit not only in the teachings of the world's main religions, including Christianity, but also in common humanity. Taken with the demonstrated facts of cruelty in current Middle Eastern methods of slaughter, it appears to follow that a ban on live exports, at least to that part of the world, should continue to be enforced.

We believe that the spirit of the ideals of me Party which you represent entails the above imperative irrespective of economic consequences. But, insofar as these latter are relevant to practical decisions, there is the further point that it would be to Australia's economic benefit to encourage the processing of meat here, to be exported chilled, and subject, in relevant cases, to inspection by duly authorized Islamic halal Inspectors.

We also hope that your Party would see fit to formulate an Animal Welfare policy. Many who support your other policies would be attracted to supporting Family First if a reasonable animal welfare policy were also to be in place.

Yours sincerely,

John Drennan (Chairman ACSCAW).
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Monday, 28 August 2006 8:54:47 P

I exported goats to the middle east and redclaw to Japan and have stopped, not due to an emotional issue but because of the problems with being paid and security for the people that handle the goats. I am sorry to say that I love animals and do not eat meat but as i cannot solve anyone elses problems but my own, I do everything in my power to correctly and humanely deal with the stock as they pass through my land. I am organic and unlike the major stations that are not owned by Australia and have the money to feedlot their cattle, mine are hand fed and pasture grazed. I send these interstate, live and our cargo cops are good at making the drivers keep the rigs clean and make sure the stock are treated correctly.
If the people in other countries treat their neighbours with the same disregard, do you believe that what you want to happen with animals is of any importance? We see a cow mistreated but in China they teara pig open while still living for good luck at sea. People have different opinions of what matters in this world and if they have been raised to see an animal as nothing more than a means to an end of hunger or a meal of religious nature. That is not going to change. If you have no hope of changing your beliefs than you must realise that your beliefs are just that and not right for the world just for you.

No Wendy cant do it alone.

I work in conjunction with Muslim leaders You can see us here>
http://www.halakindmeats.com

They are my partners and friends. TOGEHTER we have come up with a proposal to help Farmers and Animals.
I am a third generation farmer as you know.

As you have indicated I am racist I will again post the Media Release put out by AFIC in support.

Media Release

24 February 2006

Australian Muslims Are Against Animal Cruelty

The President of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, Dr, Ameer Ali
Today called on the Australian media not to act irresponsible in misinforming the
Australian public about the real reasons for live exports.

Dr. Ameer Ali said that Muslims are primarily concerned to ensure that the
Animal is slaughtered in accordance with the Islamic Shariah, ad that can be
Done in Australia under the Australian Government supervised Muslim Slaughter
Program (AGSMS) and we want the Australian public to know that we do not
Agree to animal cruelty.

He further said that Muslims in the Middle Eastern countries readily accept
frozen and chilled lamb and mutton from Australia, once it is Halal certified
under the program. Last year Australian lamb meat exports to the Middle East
was up 36% to a record 14,052 Tonnes, and Australian mutton meat export to
the Middle east was up 24% in the same period to 36,051 Tonnes (ref. Farmonline
News 1 Feb 2006). This represents the equivalent of more than 2 million sheep
which were slaughtered in Australia for Middle Eastern Muslim customers.

Dr. Ali said that the Australian Muslims does not support the cruel treatment of
animals prior to slaughter. That has been documented in Egypt as the Qur` an
dictates that animals should be treated with kindness.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Thursday, 10 August 2006 2:32:31 PM

Thank you for opening this discussion, Scout.
I hope that there will be some comments from religious people here as well. If people want to read what has been said so far on The Legal Abuse of Animals, here is a link to the comments to that article. http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4594
It’s obvious that people have not decided to stop live exports- until we all agree on that it’s harder to find a solution.
If we just make up our mind to draw a line and decide that the export of animals is a NO because Live export is cruel and what happens to our Australian animals once they reach the country of destination, is barbaric treatment.
Once we have decided that exports are out of the question, we simply HAVE to come up with alternatives.

What could the government do to support farmers? Do any of you have suggestions? What about lifting excise duties for free range produce and not for intensive farming produce? Excise for live transports but not for chilled meat transports? Just brainstorming- not saying these ideas are viable. No GST on free range eggs- GST on caged eggs.

A one-issue political Animal Welfare party might not get enough support to get off the ground, but if we'd all write to our preferred political party and say that we won’t support them until they will seriously look at the issue, at the alternatives. Even if you are not against live exports because you dont't see alternatives, other people or govt might work out alternatives.

continued

True, that nobody has the right to control other countries. We can’t. But we do have a right to make sure that our live stock isn’t going to countries that use barbaric and illegal slaughtering procedures and methods.

Same with homosexual refugees- Australia sometimes still deports homosexual refugees to countries where they execute homosexuals merely because of their sexuality- but we shouldn’t, even though there is a chance that they get some abuse in Australia too. We’re not controlling these countries but we can protect homosexuals who are in Australia by not sending them somewhere where we know conditions are far much worse than in Australia.

Back to animals again: Same with our animals- we should be protecting them from these cruelties and at the same time aim to improve on animal welfare in Australia. Two wrongs do not make one right.

Celivia Scout Alfafemale Yabby.
A MESSAGE TO FARMERS
To: "Wendy Lewthwaite" <info@halakindmeats.com>
Subject: BUY Inquiry

______________________________________________________________


______________________________________________________________

we are also imported meat (chiller or frozen) specially from sudan, india,
> pakistan, newzlanda, australia,brazil,argentine..etc
>> that i wanna to be a supplier of your company in egypt of beef &buffalo
> meat
>> that i want to import it from your farmers as co joint partners
>>
> ex.100 ton{4000*25kg}
>> that i wanna to know the offer of your company and the

To: Halalkindmeats
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: india agreement Dr Nandi.doc

Dear Madam,

We are a business house and not solely thinking for animalwellfare but we are trying to develop the animal farming process and farming technology with our business as a back yeard linkage programme.

Therefore by seeing your advertisement in the web we e-mail to you.

Now, we can assertain you that we will not for export live animal and use humanne method of slaughter.

In this circumstances we asked you for marketing our product abroad as a agent agaist which you will be paid for, if your demand matches with us.

In this context please clearly mention your specifications and farms abattoirs etc. Please make enqueries if you are not understanding our matter and discuss on the valuable points only.

With Best Regards
Dr. Nandi

Subject: meat business

.We are going to establish a world class slaughter-house for goat .

Now we are seeking for a reliable and trusted Joint Venture parter as well as Marketing partner of our products i.e. frozen meats world wide.

If you are interested for the same, please give us your best opinion about the matter concern as early as possible.

Best regards
GROUP
"Express Tower",7th Floor

We are interested in your cojoint farm and abattoir propsal.Subject - WANTED : Beef & chicken
______________________________________________________________
i look forward for your reply.
best regards
El bedoui Tarek

August 29, 2006 10:18 AM
______________________________________________________________
Subject - WANTED : Canned corned beef
______________________________________________________________
We looking for Canned corned beef to supply M.East Area.

Regard

WE INTEND TO LIST OFFERS FROM OVERSEAS TO ASSIUE FARMERS. WE SUPPLY CONTACTS AND ASSISTANCE FREE OF CHARGE.
______________________________________________________________
We are very interested to establish Farms with farmers for your free range plants and abattoirs i would like to give us a price for:

* Beef packed in 15 kg packs, Now he is buying 1150 $ from India.
Please check . 40 containers first order and then 20 containers per month.
* Eggs. 55 grams/ 5 v 10 containers per month
* chicen leg 2800mt
chicken wings 200mt
pls quat us your best price in order to we can establish a long term
successful and profitable business together.
i look forward for your reply.
best regards

Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 11:01 PM
Subject: Halal Camel Meat

Hi, Wendy.

This is the guy called you about the Halal Camel Meat. My name is Abdisalan Hersi.

Following our conversation over the phone, I am sending you this email so that you communicate with me in the future.

Thank you.

--
Hersi

Subject: Fw: urgent quotaion on live sheep and others -> from Akhouk Almukhlis

Subject: Re: urgent quotaion on live sheep and others

Sorry to disturb you late night..bcs.matter of time miscalculation , we are hee still evening time at 5.00 pm.
Any way , i wait your effort and i am sure you are very honest..and i will do every effort to meet your expectation..
*Live sheeps one thousand and above..
*the most urgent is ( full cream powdered milk) at the said specification..
*pardon me Wendy, for making you more panic to meet my request..do it at your ease and the best is to secure all needs..
*Others , i talked to ibrahim about the petrol , and i do not know whether you ahve contacat or freinds..Besides , other medical supplies: disposable syringes and versa.
*No problem , just let ur friend sms me to get in track..
stay well and have a nice time..
Sincerely , Mohd..
[ This is a good example of how we can divert live to co joint ventures by talking.

Have ready yabby's comments on not enough abattoirs to slaughter in W.A, The simple answer as Yabby pointd out is for the Government to support this co joint venture with australian farmers as people overseas wishing to purchase meat.

Mark Vaile job however happy to assist the farmers.

I too call upon the churches to life their game.!

MORE CONTACTS FOR FARMERS AND JOBS FOR AUSTRALIA>

We are most interested in your proposal of co joint farms
>> >> We need big quantities such as 20,000kilos of each but we would accept a
> lorry of mixed frozen meat too.
>>
>> Contact Person : Cristina
Dear windy..
How are you..i am really pleased that youare in touch with my brother..
There is a high demand for competive price and Muslim people facing Ramadhan very soon.
So please urgently supply me with the follwoing:
(A)
1) The price of sheep per head at amount of one thousand above...From the fram passing taxes , medical approval and others up to shipment board

2) The possiblity of providing that amount monthly or weekly or in what range..

3)The famous malaysian companies who arrange this work there in Australia and in what exact price up to this date in order to compare that with our maket survey result

(B)
What about ful cream powder? we need to have it at size of 25 KG.per packs? not in tins? the need is about 40 tonns..the buyers are secure and governmental..So how much will be the cost from Ausrralia to malaysia...to middle east? make up all that cost : up to cargo loading? and what if we want to design certain design , how much is the cost per whole pack..we will send you the designed packs? It is rather urgent..

listen: this does not mean that i abandone your suggestion of sending slaghtered halal meat , but inorder to build up connection firstly , we have to accept firstly our customer demand then gradually we can convince them further..

I wish you luck with me and no problem at all..Do ACT NOW
Mohd.Hassa

Thanks to all who have contributed to this topic so far.

Everyone has made valid points.

I started this forum as it has less limitations and, therefore more scope for an exchange of views and information.

Now I have identified the following issues (anyone is welcome to add more):

Lack of clear national policy on the treatment, raising, shipping and farming of animals.

a) Guidelines on feed, antibiotics and shelter/range.

Lack of abattoirs.

Lack of employees.

I suggest a two-pronged approach towards the reduction and eventual elimination of long haul transport of livestock.

1. National policy implemented for transport – space, heating/cooling, duration of journey, feed & cleaning.

2. Campaign across all political parties – no matter how small. Alerting them to the duress suffered by animals and lack of control over slaughter methods at destination. (Please note I am not interested in an argument of implied racism, some countries have humane slaughter methods and some don’t – it is that simple).

Nor am I interested in negatives; I believe we can improve on conditions for livestock. We cannot, as Yabby frequently points out, stop indiscriminate slaughter or inhumane conditions immediately. We can do it in stages. Posters to this forum have already detailed what they are doing at a local level – word needs to get out.

There is a high interest in healthy organic food production in Europe – Australia can develop the image of the clean, healthy and humane alternative. We can’t start with the mega producers but we can unite the smaller ones and assist with finding niche markets for their produce.

This is all just off the top of my head. I know zero about livestock production. But I do have some ideas and I want to learn. Who can help me?

I was WA Wheatbelt manager for an insurance company in the 1970s. My clients were mainly farmers and workers/owners/managers in associated industries. I used to call on existing clients and other prospects on a 'just turn up' basis and rarely by appointment.

I don't recall seeing any blatant or unnecessary cruelty. On the other hand I was often impressed by the caring natures of farmers, their wives and families and others including the workers in the many small abattoirs which were spread through the Wheatbelt in those days.

These abattoirs were helping to provide employment in country towns, helped to keep the towns viable and helped to prevent the drift of young people to the cities. Everyone benefited. The schools had children to teach. The local businesses had customers. Professional people like the doctor had an adequate client base. The sports clubs had members for sports and social occasions. The hotels benefited from agents staying there to service local businesses. There were other factors of course, but the abattoirs were part of the chain.

I think this was before the universal use of stun guns. I recall being in the Merredin abattoir and seeing a line of sheep being slaughtered. They just stepped forward, one at a time, and had their throats cut. The sheep were emotionless and certainly not scared. Although it sounds quite shocking, I realised that they were dying much easier deaths than many of us will have.

On the other hand, some cattle waiting outside were treated much differently. It was understood that they were different to the sheep and would sense danger, death or whatever. One of the workers would go outside and talk to the animal, calm it down and only lead it in when it was in a peaceful frame of mind. He certainly had an amazing knack of doing this. He came through to me as genuinely kind hearted towards the animals and I felt it was quite likely that he could not have done this job so successfully if this had not been so. Stun guns were used on the cattle.

Scout Great Site.

Hello Rex.
You'r right about slaughtering here its far better for jobs and animals.
However it sounds like it was a Halal Abattoir before the law was passed making them use stun guns.
The bolt which you describe is our Method and I think kinder. Which ever method, its miles in front of live exports.
Scout and Celivia said it in a nut shell.
We must open more abattoirs in Australia.
We are responsible for what happens to Australian Animals.
Yabby I dont agree with you and to be honest after reading your posts I am some what confused by you.
It seems although you told the lady you would be happy to advise her on the WA area you spend all your efforts working against her. Efforts to create more employment back in Australia and improve Animal Welfare should be encouraged not bagged.
I agree with the others that we need the Church to find a backbone and Howard to replace exports over a period of time.ASAP
I know its hard for people to work to open more abattoirs because they cop it from the extreme anti meat eating groups.
Celivia I noticed you posted Animals Australia web site for people to look at the pictures.
May I just say that they will not support building more abattoirs because of their vegetarin members. Thats all very nice but we need people who care enough about animals and jobs for this country to open more abattoirs. Otherwise live exports will never stop. Its common sense.
I have been looking for a sensible group for a long time to come up with alternatives and I have just joined PALE through reading your posts.
Considering we are looking for alternatives and trying to work towards fixing some of the damage done by extreme groups may I suggest people go to this site.
Thanks Scout Celivia and everybody. I am so happy I came across this information.
Here is the best site to refer everybody to.
http://www.livexports.com
Scout I will help you. Lets start a support the farmers group? perhaps?

Scout
I have been reading your posts and the others for the last four or five days and I must say my heads full.
I got info and answers to questions from emailing Wendy at HKM and as I said I joined.

Scout I noticed the link and your post on the the animal welfare forum leading people here to yours is gone.
Do you know anything about it? It would be a shame for others to miss your forum.
I am going to write to Steve Fielding about his lack of interest in Animal welfare and I will keep you posted. From what I have learnt so far it seems there are lots of people interested overseas to do business direct with Australian farmers but farmers seem scared to break out into new waters. I hope that can all change and we can find a way of reaching them. The Government need a swift kick up the bum leaving this to us , however I am sure we will get there. I would like to say to Yabbie that Elders are the largest exporters of Live Animals in Australia. Everybody knows that. I will be posting things from PALE as well as my own comments. I am as I said very happy to have come across your forum Scout and keep up the good work
Its fantasic. Well off to bed full of hopeful dreams as to what we can do to rally the churches and I might Add The AVA. I now understand a bit more about how these people get away with such treatement of Animals. To think they are vets! makes me SO angry.
I pray our farmers get interested in this idea of HKM.
I am going to print out the free stickers on the PALE web page and put them out each time I go In the car. If anybody has any ideas I would love to share.
I will post more as I am able on the forum. Anybody wanting to help> Please do
God Bless All

Hi Everybody
I just wanted to ask you all to look at the petition.
http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/view_signatures.php

Please Sign here>
http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/Petition.php

Others to adding link would be a great help.
PALE > Is a small group of people.
We are in conjunction with RSPCA QLD. We are blessed to have Mark Townend .WE MUST CONFRONT THE CHURCHES ONCE AND FOR ALL. IF ITS ANYBODIES JOB IT IS THEIRS TO STAND UP AGAINST CRUELTY TO GODS CREATURES.

While I am personally involved to assist farmers I cant do this alone.

The Animals desperatly need your help.
We need to change our image to the public and the farmers.

I am always harping about groups protesting about people eating meat, its counter productive.
Its s seen as an attack on our farmers, the counties backbone.
We need the farmers onside, to work together and open more abattoirs.

The churches need a head on confrontation about their disgusting lack of action and leadership.
It should be said several individual Churches have made an effort to do something, but not many.
We need to urgently address feed lots. Feed lots CAN be replaced by what they term creek fed.

Basically these are free range animals however they are also hand fed.

Post some links to Free Range Farmers of pigs , poultry. and please email these farmers who are doing the right thing and introduce yourself.
They would love to hear from you.

Best example of poulty farmer is .
Phil Or Free Ranger Here>

www.freeranger.com.au

Take a moment to look at these farmers.

Its important for those who care to see these sites as it can become very distressing looking at footage of cruelty if you care about animals.

This will give you a uplifted feeling and hope.
Together if everybody stands up to the churches and The Government we CAN have all our farms this good.
http://www.melandapark.com.au/organics.htm

http://www.halakindmeats.com
We are the only people to encourage more abattoirs opening and of course we are under attack from the extreme groups. Thats the price we must pay to help animals. Help farmers to help Animals

Wendy, I agree that it is just ridiculous and very close-minded the way the extreme animal liberalists are handling the situation. Often with extremists, they have tunnel vision.

I find it saddening that these groups have a lot of potential power to make positive changes for the animals, but that nothing positive happens because of their inflexible views and useless actions. I fully agree that these groups prevent progress in the right direction. These groups could be such an asset to animals and farmers if only…

Now, OK, if we just accept that the organisations of these groups are blind and not willing to open their eyes a bit wider, then there may not be any further use in discussing this with them at this moment.

But is there a way to possibly get through to the supporters of these groups and go around the organisation bodies? If the supporters can be made to see some sense, then they may be able to influence these animal rights groups' organisators.
I have no idea how, but someone else might know?

The whole pigfarm and Amanda Vanstone thing is sad but nevertheless is a good opportunity to make people aware and has grabbed some of the media’s attention.
Is there a way at all for your groups to use that media attention and play in on that so the media will direct some of that attention to present to the public and support the view of the Free Range Farmers in a campaign-kind of way?
Posted by Celivia, Tuesday, 15 August 2006 9:44:19 A

Well I've just spent the day up in Dowerin, a field day where
thousands of farmers meet each year. I spent a bit of time
on the live trade issue too, including time with some of the
exporters and chatting to fellow farmers.

Cameron Morses's trip has been put on the net by livetrade,
but I think its an abridged version, IIRC it was longer.

http://www.livecorp.com.au/index1.cfm?category=0&objectID=565

What Wellard told me was that they were dubious about taking
him up on his request, as he clearly stated that he would write
what he found, not what they wanted, before he went onboard.

Taryn, my role is to tell anyone who is interested, what the
reality is of the situation in WA. It seems that in the East,
you guys don't have a clue as to what is happening over here,
a few thousand miles away. Do you want me to lie, so that you
all feel better? Elders might play a large role over in your
side of the world, but in the WA live sheep trade, they hardly get
a mention. There are three companies in the live trade. Elders
have one crappy old boat which they have patched up and spent
millions on, to bring it up to standard. Wellard and Emmanuels
dominate the trade. Fares, which was backed by Elders, went
broke.

What I would like to see is some positive ideas used, to promote
the wellbeing of livestock. The Koran clearly states that Muslims
should be kind to animals and Muslims care about Islam. What
about some waterproof, long lasting signs made up, by the thousand,
and hung up in every meatworks in the Middle East, reminding Muslims
of what the Koran says about being kind to animals. If the idea
was put to MLA, they might well fund it.

From what I understand of Halal meat production, the methods of slaughter are supposed to be humane. That's fine. I would just like to see it performed PRIOR to shipment to Muslim countries. It is the entire live transport issue that is of concern to myself and not just outside of Australia, either. Wide, brown land that it is, live transport should not cover the vast distances here that it does.

Yabby - how some some more links where we can find out how the situation in WA really is?

TarynW

Loving your informative posts - I guess the demise of abbatoirs is part of the entire deskilling of tradespeople. We no longer have the apprenticeships that we used to and we are looking to import trained people.

I wonder if we can use this as a sort of exchange program.

For example, Muslim abbatoir workers could come to Australia and work here and Aussies could go to train in ME countries? I am for the complete phasing out of live trade, but a good start would be a bit of friendly cooperation between countries. I used ME as an example, partly because it is topical, Yabby is focused on trade there, but this exchange could be used in Asia as well.

Maybe foreign meat production companies could be encourage to invest in Aussie abbatoirs?

I am just throwing around ideas at the moment.

As for the hardline vegetarians, well just like fundy religious they cannot convert all to their way of life, but they could be encouraged to put their money where their mouth is (so to speak) and invest in humane practices for raising and transporting livestock.

One of the big problems facing genuine free range egg farmers in Australia is the lack of a clear national definition which means the same thing to producers as it does to consumers. Hopefully this situations will change following all the recent publicity about egg substitution. The Federal Minister for Agriculture and his State counterparts are at last looking at establishing a legal definition which will provide certainty for consumers.
To help this along we have conducted a consumer survey at http://freerangereggs.blogspot.com Preliminary results show that 100% of the people who buy free range eggs expect that the birds are not de-beaked or beak trimmed, and that the hens are able to graze on grass or other vegetation for most of the day.

Scout, I am actually not focussed on trade there, just focussed
on the reality of the WA situation and the fact that nobody
has put up concrete solutions to change it.

Right now the live trade is in fact the saviour for many
WA farmers. To give you an example of this week, a sheep
slaughtered locally is worth 80c a kg cwt to the grower,
the same animal on a boat is worth a bit over 2$ a kg cwt.
Thats a halving of income for thousands of families, who are already
suffering from all sorts of financial problems.

Now if people want to go around suggesting to other Australians
that they should halve their income, they need to have jolly
good reasons!

I have in fact been one of the most vocal proponants in the
WA rural press, for more local meatworks to be built, if
possible with farmer pariticipation, as we face the collapse
of the wool industry and a move to meat sheep. That will mean
even more sheep to be concerned about. At least for lamb,
returns locally are alot better, but still way behind the
Eastern States prices.

There is little about the trade online, except in the rural
press, sites like MLA etc and some of the live exporters.
I contacted Cameron Morse to find out if his full story
was online anywhere. He said that at first he tried to
keep out of the politics of the debate, but he was so attacked
by animal libbers, that he has released it and Wellards
have it on their website.

http://www.wellardgroup.com.au/media_centre/media_releases.phtml

Hey yabby,
Jolly good reason you say? I think the cruelty on these boats and when they get off the boats is a bloody good reason,

I live in WA and am a butcher and it wasnt to long ago I helped out putting these sheep onto boats and waving them a good trip. Noone knew back then and Im sure not very many people know now what actually happens to them at the other end. Obviously we knew death was upon them but not this cruel killing of them.
Now alot of the boys I worked with on these load outs were decent fellas who did the right thing as much as they could to help these sheep and there was also cattle to get onto the boats as quick and nicely as possible.
However there were alot of times I saw how some assholes were throwing them about and punching and kicking these animals.

Now not long ago I worked in a petshop where they had the round yard for the animals to be slaughterd to stay and await there death. Most of these animals were dying or sick , they were baught into the kill room and shot in the head.

In my industry I have never seen as much cruelty and barbaric behaviour in australia as I have seen in video footage at the ends of these boats trips.

Making the trip better for these animals isnt going to stop what happens over the other side they are stil going to be mistreated.

I wont deny that some of these aussie blokes need a good kicking up the ass as to how they treat these animals and some can be out right cruel but its not just WA that has these pricks its the whole of australia they are everywhere.

I cant see a solution to the money crisis when live exports finish I guess if john howard can give out bonus payouts to mothers for having kids Im sure he can come up with something to stop the farmers going broke

Yabby
Live exports is Australia wide, not just WA. You seem to think the writer started this about live exports. its not about that. All you are doing is trying to undermine the authors intentions.
Scout has clearly said its about the lack of Church interest in cruelty to animals and finding ways to re open or build new abattoirs.
If you would like to make some constructive comments regarding those two issues it would be good.
Elders proudly say their the largest live exporter.
Although the AWB since buying Wesfarmers out in 2003 are catching up.
You mention Emmanuels and Wellard. Do you even have any idea of their track record. It seems to me I read in the other post you have some better ideas back there. Your comment to approach the Government in WA and get the RSPCA to support opening new plants was a good one.
Your posts are not consistant. The only thing that is perfectly clear to me anyway is that your somebody who likes to be the center of attention.
I read you were happy to assist the people with overseas investors to introduce them to farmers. I thought to myself, great. A good start. Then you come on line bagging the people who offered to set that up.
I have a friend who worked on the ships and saw the suffering onboard and off the ships. We can only be reasponsible for our methods and our animals. Anyway if you were a farmer , "and" producer exporter" Your going to more than make up the price per kilo. I read you said Feed lots were a fact of life. Well its a fact of live they are cruel as well. So no Yabby eventually it will change. People like you should be put on these ships instead of the animals. You say you care about farmers. Good. If you do then lets get the jobs back in the regional areas so their kids can own the farms and the abattoirs AND be exporters.
study > A LIST OF LIVE EXPORT AGENTS>

http://www.livexports.com/contacts.html

Benny you are quite correct, there is good and bad treatment of
livestock, including in Australia. I am all for suggesting positive
ways to change that.

If you read one of my posts just a little way back, you'll see
that I made a simple, cheap, cost effective suggestion which is
a win-win for all, to help change things in the Middle East.
For its not just Australian animals which go there. Fact
is Islam and the Koran matters in the Middle East and slogans
from the Koran are readily accepted. So why not constantly
remind people what the Koran actually says about animal
welfare?

Lets face it, Australia took a while to change its views on
animal welfare, the same needs to happen in the Middle East.
Why do you people only care about what happens to Aussie
animals? Why not think beyond that? The live trade is
generating funding to do exactly that kind of positive
thing.

Fact is that you won't achieve much in the Middle East
with the big stick arrogant Western approach either.
But you'll achieve something by understanding their
culture and then using that very thing in a discreet
way to bring about change. People skills matter in
this world.

The practice of exporting live sheep is not only barbaric it is offensive to Australians and the Australian way of life. If you want to look it with open eyes and gloves off, its designed to appease the wishes of not Australians in general but a select group of muslims, who have convinced themselves that getting their meat alive is the only way.
This as admitted by seniour muslims clerics is infact not even true!. This is how you fix this barbaric act. The governement says 'these are our sheep, we will kill them humanly, freeze them and export them to you. If you dont like it bad luck' Its just a typical case of Muslims and there hypocritical Islam trying to tell the rest of the world what to do. Well Akmed, you can get stuffed, im not going to treat even 1 of my sheep inhumanly for you. I wont be dictated to by some foreinger. Im making a stand for farmers everwhere. You can be a barbarian i choose not to be!

God Bless Australia

Vetman, it’s a good thing to refuse to treat sheep inhumanely for anyone (are muslims or non-muslims.)

However, it is a bit ironic that we, Westerners, blame Islam for some of our problems, seeing that the Christian churches do absolutely nothing to try to stop live exports. So much for compassion!
I have not seen a religious, church going person on the animal Welfare articles- Where the hell are they?

Wendy, in another post (Legal abuse of animals) has shown us an interesting article about Muslims against cruel treatment in an article, here’s the link: http://www.animalsaustralia.org/default2.asp?idL1=1272&idL2=1865&idL3=1895

In short, if you don’t want to read the whole article: “…Muslims in the Middle Eastern countries readily accept frozen and chilled lamb and mutton from Australia, once it is Halal certified under the program.”

And: “Dr Ali said that the Australian Muslims does not support the cruel treatment of animals prior to slaughter, that has been documented in Egypt as the Qur'an dictates that animals should be treated with kindness.”

Now, that’s a great thing! If Australians still decide to export live stock, well, at least they can blame themselves, not the whole Islam.
PS I am neither a muslim nor a Christian- trying to look at it objectively.

Yabby, you sound like a brainwashed Muslim yourself. Muslim parents are banning their children form music classes in primary school because music leads to dancing which leads to sex!! They are primary aged children. Learn their culture? I find their culture to be barbaric and offensive. I do not wish to learn to oppress women like slaves. I do not wish to be a terrorist. I do not wish to learn to be cruel to animals.
Australia Love it or Leave it

Hey guys,
Vetman what can I say apart from your a legend mate .
Celivia I have to agree with vetman about the culture issue, They come to our country and dont adopt our culture in any way shape or form. The churches well I dont want to say to much about them as I cant stand them but they used to sacrafice animals so that shows how much compassion they are going to have.
We may decide to export and thats wrong in its own, If islam want to accept this then they to are still in the wrong especially the way they treat them when they arrive.

Yabby
No animal has to go through what they do whether it be from here to the north pole it doesnt make any difference.
Start with the problems here first then when they are solved u move on we cant fix a problem in another country that we havent delt with in our own.
Take them a while? Monkey see monkey do approach needs to be taken.
I dont know to much about whats going on with other countries and am learning more from wendys site have you had a look at it yabby?
Live exports need to stop all together not only here but everywhere we all agree on that.
Understanding there culture??
Culture has nothing to do with treating an animal cruely

Yabby.
Your pro live export agenda is getting a bit of a bore. Its not our job to teach the Koran. Its our leaders who need to address resposibilty HERE.
Muslim Leaders in Australia have asked as much in the interest of Animal Welfare themselves. THEY oppose live exports of Animals long distance travel.
Stop trying to make out to the readers of this forum your a big time live animal operator because its clear to me at least you know jack all.
We are going to tell them they are welcome to share in farms or invest in abattoirs along with us here. As you said on your earlier post they get around 90 mill a day from oil so if they want our meat they can buy it in a box. They certainly dont need to save pennies. If they want to come in as partners with farmers and put some of that oil money into being farmers producers exporters good for Australia not only regional propertys but everywhere.
Stop trying to tell people they cant invite business with live importors.
Also its the middle man who makes money. We are offering real alternatives to make farmers more inderpendant of the live ship people who export. We are taking back the control of our land, animals and exports. Its clear your not a live exporter of animals anyway. I have seen your forums on about birth control and everything under the sun. Whats clear is you wish to interupt this forum which had its set topics.
Bringing the live animal purchasers from Overseas to farm and produce here WITH the Australian Farmers is clearly the answer.
That is bloody good for animal Welfare, jobs and good relations working side by side with our own Muslim, HERE.

Isnt it strange that many of them also agree its too hard on the animals apart from destroying the meat quality. Do you even know what I am talking about. I dont think so.
I dont think you would know one end of a cow or sheep from another.

Ahh, we have three new posters on OLO today, all posting their first
posts on this thread. Methinks somebody is calling in the troups :)

With limited words, I shall answer what I can.

Vetman, if you think that I have any kind of religious affiliation,
you might be suprised, if you spend a little more time on here.
Your solution to dealing with the Middle East is much like that
of George Bush. Now look whats happened to George there! Think again.

Antje, my comments are only about the WA live export sheep trade.
You do what you want over East. Meantime stop trying to deny
WA farmers a living, you have put forward no better viable options.

Fact is that in the WA live sheep trade, only 3 companies matter
and Elders is no 3, far behind the other two. Fares, which they
bankrolled, went broke.

My posts are perfectly consistant. I welcome anyone to come
and build a meatworks in WA, in fact I encourage it and promote
it. The best way to facilitate that happening, is through Kim
Chance, who can facilitate it. That is good advice to anyone.
I welcome Arab investment or any investment. Meantime, 7 million
sheep need to go somewhere and meantime the live trade is the
salvation for many WA farmers, paying prices double what our
local meatworks will pay. Thousands of families depend on that
trade. But feel free to shoot me, as the messanger of the reality
in WA. I have debated with far more crazy people then you :)

Benny, I suggest that you read Cameron Morse's article on the
finding of his trip to Jordan. I have posted the link and
welcome informed comment on it.

Yabby,
I see your point I really do I used to work for Kevin fowler (you sound like you know EVERYTHING about WA but incase you dont Kevin supplys the live animals to Elders that are sent to Saudi Arabia) its these people we need to get in touch with about banning the live exports.

I think we need more E.G Greens and sons abboitiors that will pay farmers the right amount of money and stop the live export trade.
From what I know they went broke and Elders have taken over but again this is what we should be aiming at. Something simular where they dont loose out and get the same price maybe with a helping hand from this caring government... wishful thinking

You said to Antje you are only talking about WA but wasnt it you that posted we should be thinking about animals all over the world? Look past WA its happening all over australia Yabby.

AWB ENQUIRY COWS WITH GUNS



Cole enquiry spoke of AWB live export money today.[at last]

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rrat_ctte/animal_welfare05/submissions/sub72.pdf
Desperate cover-up in Iraqi “blood money” saga

The Australian Wheat Board (AWB) is desperately working to cover up its connections to the controversial live export trade, according to investigations by an animal welfare group. People against Live Exports (PALE) have uncovered evidence that while the AWB was knowingly diverting millions to Saddam Hussein’s regime under Iraq’s Oil-for-food scheme, it was also secretly raising cash from interests in the live Animal export trade.

PALE founder said the scandal was the best kept secret of the Cole inquiry into the AWB.

“The public line is that the Australian Wheat Board sells wheat. They are very keen to keep it quiet that they have also been raising blood money through their connections to the cruel live export trade,” Ms Lewthwaite said.

MEDIA R.

“I uncovered evidence in 2003 that the AWB had purchased interests in livestock company Landmark a short time after the Cormo Express debacle took place. The profits from this venture likely forms a proportion of the money sent to Iraq.”

Ms Lewthwaite said the AWB and the Cole inquiry had gone out of their way to keep information about AWB’s connections to Landmark a secret.

“
“There is a strong public interest in Live Exports and the AWB involvement in live exports is of direct relevance to the current inquiry. It is both immoral and duplicitous for this information to be concealed.”

Ms Lewthwaite said PALE was calling on the government to ensure the Cole inquiry process was transparent and that uncomfortable details about the AWB’s business dealings were not swept under the carpet.

Millions of live sheep, cattle, goats, and other animals endure journeys for up to 3 months from the farm gate to their overseas destinations and eventual very cruel slaughter .Miss Lewthwaite has held meetings with Muslim Leaders of Australia, Malaysian Government officials who advice they do not acquire animals alive for religious purposes and that it is clearly driven by the Government and the department of Trade and Trades.

http://www.wesfarmers.com.au/getfile.aspx?Type=document&ID=3780&ObjectType=3&ObjectID=698

http://www.livexports.com/cowgun.html


Not that the RSPCA was surprised by the strong response from Australians outraged at endemic cruelty in the live export trade.

Many Australian voters may not give two hoots about $300 million in kickbacks to Saddam Hussein to sew up Australian wheat sales to Iraq. But it would be a different story if the AWB was ever linked to live exports.!

The Gold Coast-based Halal Kind Meats is off to the backblocks of Queensland and West­ern Australia to look for Australian slaughter­ing opportunities. Dozens of Australian abatt­oirs have closed since the live export trade boomed in 1990s. Kindness to animals is part of the Australian 'fair go' tradition.

The temporary ban on the export of live cattle to Egypt over the 60 Minutes expose looks like a token gesture from a government committed to livestock exports.

Labor appears more concerned with the future of Australia's livestock trade overseas than banning the practice. Even noted animal

lover, HM The Queen, passed the buck back to Australia when asked to intervene.

Cattle rate No. 2 on live export numbers. Sheep are export kings. Those imperfect or injured ones not fed to the sharks or minced alive await their fate at Middle Eastern slaugh­terhouses. Travel from farm to abattoir can take three months.

Animal welfare zealots reckon Australia's live export trade is 'a story of profit at any cost'. With six million sheep, 850 cattle and 100,000 goats shipped offshore each year there must be a juicy quid in the game for someone.

Why doesn't Labor home in on a Wesl Australian live export investigation which found the trade costs Australia $1.7 billion in local production plus $280 million in house­hold income and up to 12,000 jobs?

The Australian Federation of Islamic Councils insists live exports are not necessary to comply with Muslim laws.

"That can be done in Australia under the Australian Government supervised Muslim Slaughter Program," said AFIC president Dr Ameer Ali. More than two million sheep were slaughtered in Australia last year for Middle Eastern markets and shipped frozen or chilled.

THE Gold Coast BULLETIN, Tuesday, March 7, 2006

First I'd like to welcome the new participants to this forum. I notice that some names are new to me and hope you will enjoy the OLO experience.

Now, this thread was established to discuss animal welfare in general and livestock transport in particular.

I am interested in gathering useful info and links that I can collate for activists and anyone else who is interested.

I am not interested in:

a) Muslim bashing - there is already a plethora of religious based forums for that, so go there.

b) Character attacks - I'm no christian, but turning the other cheek works well.

I welcome the link provided to the freerange egg blogspot and urge others to answer survey.

In her inimitable style, Wendy has provided useful links.

Celivia it is worh noting than so far, none of the usual extreme christians have posted on this thread yet. Not really surprised - just confirming my own biases, I guess. Perhaps we could invite them on from some other threads?

But I want more, please.

There is a way to have a win/win situation - I believe that more humane handling of livestock simply results in less loss of produce. Animals that have been mistreated often have to be destroyed, apart from the unnecessary cruelty, the pragmatists will note that this is also uneconomic.

I believe that creating a greater awareness of animal production will result in people caring more where their food comes from and demanding that the market provides chemical free, free range product.

2007 is the next federal election - time enough to contact pollies and other relevant parties with a succinct and informative campaign. I doubt Labor will win, I believe much of the focus should be on both Libs and Labor.

I'm also interested to know just which states people are from. I already know about Yabby & Wendy, I'm from Victoria.

If any people are interested in contacting me more directly an email address you can use is:

ripley66@fastmail.fm

Must go, my King Parrots have landed for a feed and are calling me.

Cheers

Scout I agree completely with your comments. The issues are about the treatment of animals. We run our farm in a way that probably would not provide a big enough return for a corporate farmer - but it produces a living.
I have held discussions with many other egg producers and the big operators always say that they have to de-beak their birds to prevent cannibalism. They carefully ignore the fact that cannibalism is only a problem because of the intensive nature of their operations. If they didn't have 20,000 or 30,000 birds in one shed and if they selected birds with a less aggressive temperament, they wouldn't need to beak trim.
We are in Victoria (down near Phillip Island)

Benny I only tend to discuss WA, as thats the area I have alot
of knowledge about. I generally prefer not to comment on areas
where I have little unbiased information. To my knowledge most
of the cattle going out live, go from the NT, a hop step and
jump across to Indonesia.

I also know that there is one hell of a lot of misinformation
out there in the animal welfare debate. I followed the
mulesing dabate and the amount of misinformation fed out by
Peta etc was just incredible. Alot of people believed it
and had their agenda been successfull, it would have landed
up causing a huge amount of suffering in the real sheep world
out there.

So if people have a clearcut, at any cost agenda, I am dubious
about alot of the info and usually when I do some research,
I find that alot of it is out of date and not an accurate
reflection of the present situation.

My point about Middle Eastern meatworks still stands. If
we, through a bit of innovative thinking and just a little
money, which is available through mla, can make a difference
in the treatment of animals in the Middle East, then we
should be doing it.

Elders tried to buy Greens but they lost. The real problem
is that there is so much State Gove red tape in building
a new meatworks, that virtually nobody is going to a
greenfields site and doing it properly. It can be done,
as Fletcher did, but that was hugely facilitated by the
State Govt of the time.

Yabby

Dubious about what? Surley not the AWB involment.

If So,you will find the article posted was written by a political journalst for many years.

He spent six weeks checking my information.

You will appreciate its hard to run a front page article on live exports when the owner of the papers a major live exporter.

The only reason intensive farming, live exports, exists is the ownerships of media, Ministers and others with a clear conflict of interest.

The public are waking up however. AVA cant hide behind the Vaile anymore.

MLA are funded 50, 50 by the public and industry.

96 percent of public want more abbattoirs opended.

I would have thought it reasonable to spend a small percentage of MLA funding towards promoting co joint farms and inviting overseas investors instead of just live exports.

Every family who pay tax are funding live exports through subs.

Did you know that.

You keep saying Kym Chance is the man in WA.

Why dont you grab a few contacts with people overseas arrange a meeting.
Why dont you help Scout to find the farmers to meet with interested people?
And dont give me the rubbish that the MLA have a vet over there.

Bloody clever vet who can look after millions of animals when he has no power ah! and all at the one time.

What was the name of the vet that took the passport of the ship worker.?
Remember the worker who was threatend if he told anybody about the animals thrown overboard getting chucked down the mincers still alive just before they dock.?
Nigel wasnt it? Tell you what I will look back over my records and post the whole interview. There have been so many reports i get them all mixed up.
Anyway Yabby we really need people interested to comment on the Churches stand or lack of.
Do you have any thought on that side of it.

Do you think Churches should speak out about Animal cruelty?
What do you think about Amandas piggery.? What do you think about battery hens?

Wendy, as far as I am concerned, Landmark were bought from Wesfarmers, as AWB were concerned that if they lost their wheat
monopoly, there would not be much left. Landmark are commission
agents. They put their hand out for 5%, when people sell livestock.

Plenty of Aussie papers are owned by non live exporters. The West
Australian, HWT group, etc. etc.

Serious overseas investors are invited at any time to go and
see Kim Chance and put a proposal to him. They can even buy farms,
go farming, whatever they want. They can meet any amount of local
farmers, if they are actually serious. In my experience in exporting, there are lots of dreamers out there, few can do people
with serious money behind them. One has to differentiate between
pure time wasters and serious investors.

The role of churches is to preach to their flocks. They know zilch
about farming, the meat trade, live exports. More emotional rhetoric
is not what is required, intelligent rational analysis is short
enough as it is.

I have stated before on here a number of times that I am against
battery hens. Yet 80% of consumers still buy their eggs

Scout and Good Scouts, Celivia others.

Scout time I said thank you for all your hard work.

I will try to give you a few answers to your questions.

I emailed you however I have some problems with recieving.

TO CHANGE THINGS>

Write To Steve Fielding Of Family First.

He represents all the Churches[votes] Thats how Bush wins elections.

AVA Australian Vetinary Association who approve intensive farming and live exports.

They have not been looked at. THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE.

Write Mark Vaile, Downer, Howard.

Form Jobs for Australia Groups.

Form Free Range Farmers groups

Close your insurance , bank accounts etc with companies running live exports and intensive farms.

Last night Yabby Replied to an email I sent him.

I have asked him for permishion to post it on your site.

He said Yes. So I will do that and reply to him in order to actually get something going to see if he will help to get some contacts of farmers.
He said he would before. I must remind everybody we are not only looking at WA. It is just one state in Australia.

Yabby is correct about greenareas and the red tape. With the lack of water and lack of will to re open plants and build new ones we do require some support from Authoritys.

Mark Vaile wants to keep live exports going.

The reason is the agents[ shipping aggents donate through others to "certain" political parties.

They are the grubs of this world who trade on unspeakable cruelty for money while destroying country towns by taking the jobs overseas.
The difference in price is set by trade and taffifs and the Ministers of trade MUST undo their grubby liitle deals.

I will post responding to ben Antje Taryn and all the others soon.

We should also thank Yabby.[ Although Yabby we need to move on now , you have made you postion clear.

We need to talk about churches and the best way to get abattoirs open and lots of them.

Thanks for giving us someone to pick on.

Hi Wendy,
Thanks for the mail. I have in fact been extremely honest with you about how the real
situation is here in WA, clearly quite different to what you people over there perceive
it to be. The industry is also changing constantly and those changes have to be
acknowledged. As various people on OLO openly started discussing the live trade,
I have responded so that more of them are informed about the WA situation.

I am certainly not strongly in favour of the live trade. I am in favour of win-win
solutions for the 7 million sheep a year that are turned off from WA and that farmers
don't constantly get the rough end of the pineapple, as so often happens to them.
Right now, with a drought, local meatworks taking advantage of that drought and
. As Cameron Morse
showed, the part of the trade that he investigated is in fact humane and well run.

If you followed the WA rural press, I am in fact known for being a stirrer in
the meat industry, having written many letters to suggest that more meat plants
need building in WA and that farmers should take a stake in those plants. But I
am also aware of the reality of what 7 million sheep is. 4 million of those go
live exports. To deal with that, you are talking of investments of maybe 150
million$ all up. You are talking of enormous markets, prepared to pay a reasonable
price, they simply dont exist right now and neither do the investors. Until they
do, all the chanting against the live trade is meaningless and a waste of time.

I am a member of a coop called Wammco, as are 1000 farmers here.
Wendy, your proposals need to be realistic, not fairyfloss dreamer stuff.
If its dreamer stuff Ill tell you, I play life honestly and straight, warts
and all. But you are free to shoot the messanger, as so many do, when they
dont like to hear the reality of a situation.

take care

Yabby

REPLY TO YABBY.

Of course we can slaughter here IF we want to.

Even the AFIC have done a Press Releases agreeing sayings its doable and preferable.

Sure its going to cost to build new plants.

So What,. As you said the middle East pump 80 90 B A day[no worries]

Do we need State Government blessings?
Yes we do.

Why? Because its normal for overseas investors of large funds to seek the comfort that they have their approval.

We need farmers with land backbone forsight basic common decency towards Animal Welfare. Yes WE do.

DO WE NEED FEDERAL GOVERNMENTS BLESSINGS?
Yes we do. Why? Tarrifs ., training ,

Rodger Fletcher is a good example Yabby employing many and running around 60 million a year.

Farmers must stand up and stop being frightened of being blacklisted.

Mr Jim Dywer was one of the first slaughter people to come back from overeas to set up red meat exports. In those days they used to pump the RBrian around the edges of the ships to keep the meat.

He is still alive and still exports skins to China. He and his mates called for a meeting with the NZ Priminster back in 1931.

They warned of many things regarding taking animals alive.

If anybody knows this industry its him.

I will try to set up a video voice tape on this link so he can tell everybody about abattoirs and live exports.

If you go to the AMIEU sites they will ALL tell you the same thing.
OK Now How about commenting on Intensive Farms for pigs chooks and especially Amada Vanstones piggery. Is that ok with you too??

please everybody read this. Most of your answers Scout are here>

ECONOMIC REPORT THE LIVE ANIMAL TRADE>
http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:8Ci14WmrSAoJ:www.liveexportshame.com/docs/Economic%2520Report.pdf+amieu+russell+leader+live+exports&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=1

In The Next Few Days i will Try To Lighten things Upo by Posting Some Pictures Of Strippers At The AWB Enquiry Protesting Their Live Animal Export business..
This topic is upsetting and draining so We think a laugh helps at Times.
PS THe Girls did A good Job.

Whewww, where do I start. Lots of faults in what you have written
there Wendy. Lots of faults too in the Pacat report.

I've just been reading a copy of the Hassall and Ass report on
the live export industry.

http://www.mla.com.au/TopicHierarchy/IndustryPrograms/LivestockExports/Live+export+reports.htm

Fact is the live export trade doesent cost, but gains the nation
13000 jobs, plus 1.8 billion.

The first person to lose without the export trade, is in fact the
farmer. If a WA farmer sells a sheep to say Fletcher tomorrow,
he'll get around 16-20$. From the live trade, that same sheep would
be worth 55$. THE FARMER ALWAYS GETS SHAFTED

But lets look at the bigger picture. The present Saudi mutton
price is around 3$ a kg C and F. So on a 20 kg carcass thats
60$. That same live sheep they'll pay 103$ for. Of that some
is for freight, about 78$ per head is spent directly in Australia,
alot of it in regional areas. Trucking, pellets, AQIS, vets,
etc. etc. If farmers have 55$ in their pockets rather then 18$,
they spend it and create even more regional jobs. So your
economic analysis is flawed dear.

BTW, Fletcher can't find Aussies to work in his works in Narricup.
So he has flown in 160 Filipinos, Aussies don't want the jobs.

yeh Mate tell that to the thousands of workers who lost their jobs Through live exports. I dont think Wendy would want you calling her deary either. I lost my job along with heaps of others so its your theory that doesnt stack up. This womans pretty on the money. Wendy if i were you and all the other readers I would just get on with the job and get others who are interested and work with Scout. I reckon hes just jamming this on here on purpose to try and stop you lot telling the people the truth.
The bloke doesnt give a hoot about the Animals. I cant say I am a soft touch. Truth is nobody is in the industry much but the way those animals are treated turns me stomach and no amount of money is changes that
So mate you either just get on these things to stir or someones paying you to try to stop the others getting on with the job. So you dont give a hoot about the animals and its all about money for shipping agents. We get that already ok. But dont tell me mate that live exports create jobs because me and mates all lost jobs and thousands more as all the plants were forced to close because of live exports.
Sorry Scout and others but I have seen the way the animals get treated mate and thats this end. I know they face much worse on the ships and even worse the other end if they live. This idiots telling me who lost his job like the thousands over the years and sat back watching our abattoirs close it doesnt cause job loses. Well mate I am a butcher and its my trade and your full of bull to put it as nicely as I can. Ilost me house because of live exports forcing the place down so tell your lies to somebody else.

Vetman I like your theory man but dont blame the muslims for all of this. Take it from me they are lied to and stuffed around by the Trade lot setting the dam tarrifs. Yep your right we wont send one sheep there. If Australia wants to sell meat it can be done here and give us our jobs back.
Scout and everybody else. I am happy to help set up your group scout. Is there a way we can now move forward because I think everybody is getting sick of Yabby. Scout what plans from here. How can I help.
Are you starting a support Farmers Group like vetman and Wendy suggest or what plans do you think we could get going.
I was thinking I might drop off this post because everbody seems to give all their time answering this jerk.
I will stick around if we can move on. Wendy I think you should move on as well if you dont mind me telling you. Hes doing it on purpose you can see that. Your not going to get anywhere unless you actually form these stand up for farmers groups. Your gotta get it together . I will tell all my old mates that lost their jobs if your going to start something Scout.
Scout Dam good to see this post too by the way.
oh yeh and dont let anybody tell you that of live exports stopped the middle east would buy from other countries. That been proven wrong.
Well i will be interested to see if anybody takes this old butchers advise. Yeh Lets see if we cant get something doing here.

Thanks to Wendy, Benny & Yabby too.

I am time poor today so just a quick post.

I want to gather sufficient info to write a submission - one of my first contacts will be http://www.getup.org.au/ - GETUP have had considerable success with a number of campaigns and they have the email list to fed members.

I am also interested in setting up some kind of contact list for all small farmers/traders across Australia so that they can share knowledge and support each other.

All this is very early - I am going about this with my usual combination of pragmatism and intuitive response to circumstances.

I have left a bit of a challenge on the 'fuzzy thinking on religion' thread, not really expecting anything though.

Wendy - I haven't had a chance to read, let alone respond to your email - will do so tomorrow - earlier if possible.

Cheers people

Benny, you are free to shoot the messanger all you wish :) I will
keep pointing out reality, for it doesent go away when you
close your eyes and wish it would.

If you are a meat worker looking for a job in regional WA, there
are heaps. Greg Cross of Fletchers has been on the radio time
after time, talking about nobody wanting jobs, thats why the
Filipinos were brought in. Wammco in Katanning were screaming for
workers for years. They knocked back lucrative contracts from
Japan, because they could not find staff. In the end they brought
in 45 Chinese to take jobs that Aussies didn't want.

Last year hundreds of thousands of lambs were trucked to the
Eastern States, as there was not enough labour here to slaughter
them in WA.

What also cannot be denied, is that WA woolgrowers, already in
deep trouble from a collapsing wool industry, would lose around
100 million$ (3.5 million sheep times 30$) by the end of the
live trade. Thats the reality of it.

Keep calling me all the names you want, what you think of me
I really don't care. But reality is reality, the evidence is
there for all to see and understand.

Large changes have been and are being made to the live trade,
since the Cormo story. That will continue no doubt. Changes
have been made in transport, changes are being made at the other
end. Again, realities that don't go away, no matter how much
you get rid of your frustrations by trying to insult me.
If that makes you feel better Benny, thats ok by me too :)

Well I've read the PACAT report, posted by Wendy, from
cover to cover. I can't see anywhere in there, any mention
of caring for the thousands of farmers having to leave the
land, caused by low prices for their products. Clearly
the author does not seem to care much for farmers or
their families.

The meat processing industry in NZ thrives because of
a 200k tonne quote into high value Europe. Our quota
is 18k tonnes.

The reason that the live trade has such overwhelming
support from West Australia's farmers, is that they
pay farmers a reasonable price, so that they can feed
their families. Nobody has put forward a viable, realistic
alternative! Nobody. If you have one, the sheep are in
the saleyards every week, waiting for your bid.

Thats exactly why State and Federal Govts support the
trade. They are aware that nobody has come up with
an alternative and in a free market economy which
we have, screwing farmers into the ground to satisfy
other peoples agendas, is not an option. 11'000
WA farmers agree with me on that one.

Scout, I appreciate the approach you seem to be taking on this.

There will be better ways of doing the things which currently cause suffering to domesticated animals, some may require new technologies and other may require some hard decisions. Gathering information and ideas is a good place to start.

R0bert

I second that, RObert,
Scout, Good on you for gathering the info to submit to GETUP. I’ll keep my eyes and ears open, but I suppose Wendy is the best person to help you with that. The list for farmers is also a great idea. I’m in NSW Scout- I know you asked that somewhere. I might contact you next week or so, thanks for leaving your email address.

I’m still learning about all of this, but I feel my interest will most likely be in thinking about gathering ideas and ways to communicate with some religious groups or/and schools in the near future- but for now I’m still in the learning/ collecting info stage.

Doing little things such as making a nuisance of myself to food companies- e.g. when it says on the label that there's egg in the product, asking them whether they're using free range eggs in their products and why not etc. Telling them I'll only buy when they don't use caged eggs.
Tell supermarkets you want to see more free range products.

All depends too how much time is available- doing a lot of little, not-so-time-consuming things can make a difference as well if people are pressed for time!

Hello everyone. Still have lots to catch up on, especially regarding the info Wendy has sent me, however will do so.

Excellent suggestions from Celivia regarding types of eggs used in products and pestering supermarkets. PERSISTENCE PAYS.

Thanks to R0bert for your support. Am still in the info gathering stage .

Yabby, while I admit I haven't read Wendy's link yet so can't comment, I still fail to understand why a graduated change away from live export to local processing of animals should result in loss of business for farmers, please explain.

I notice we are still a christian free zone. Although Boaz graced Celivia's thread with his presence and excused himself by saying that he 'tried' on the animal abuse thread, but got disheartened by Pericles - I didn't realise that BD was so easy to discourage ;-) or maybe he just doesn't care enough.

Anyway, I'm not so interested in the OLO religious mafia as I am in reaching our religious organisations, but it is worth noting the lack of interest here.

I was thinking about the alternative that the many farmer's markets that have sprung up throughout Australia, offer instead of stupor-markets.

So I went forth and googled and found this:

http://www.tradewatchoz.org/localfood/

"Farmers’ markets are a real alternative to export markets which force Australian farmers to overproduce, overuse chemical inputs and which pay them lower and lower prices. At a farmers market, farmers from a local area sell their food direct to the public. Buying your food from a farmers’ market means that it is locally produced, and the money goes straight to the person who grew it. It guarantees farmers a decent income, encourages face-to-face interaction, creates communities and avoids all the destructive effects of the global trading system".

The website provides a list in all states and some great links.

Scout, it could be done, but would have to be done quite differently
to what people are suggesting. It certainly could not be done
in small, regional meatworks.

To understand the whole thing, you need to understand the costs
of putting an animal down a meat chain. Labour, compo,
super, holiday pay, payroll tax, other govt taxes, etc. etc.
In the end you convert it all to a cost per unit. Australian
costs are so high, that whichever model you look at, the only
solution is very large, very highly mechanised and highly capitalised works, to reduce your cost per unit. Any other model
lands up meaning that farmers, who are at the bottom of the
chain and get whats left, are shafted financially.

At this very moment, sheep going down WA meat chains, which are
relatively backward in most cases, are worth little more then
fertiliser per tonne. Only one plant in WA is highly efficient,
he is cleaning up. Interestingly Kim Chance was against that,
when he was in opposition and it was built.

Given that the live trade is the only trade paying farmers a reasonable price for their sheep, it feeds their families after all,
it is overwhelmingly supported and fair enough. Thats the reality
of it.

You are correct about farmers markets, they have a huge future for
niche producers etc. In WA its not the solution, as we don't have
the population base, so depend on exports

[Deleted for urging violence. Poster banned indefinitely.]

Farmers' markets are a great idea. Certainly not every country town could economically support one, but I'm sure that there could be many more in Western Australia than there currently are. I would imagine that any growers who sold their produce through such a market would automatically be pressured by the large supermarket chains with being blacklisted as suppliers to them, so some careful consideration would need to be given by such growers.

A growers' market near where I live [outer metropolitan Perth] is owned and managed by a local potato and vegie grower. A few months ago he had a lot of his own potatoes which, under some WA State govt regulations, couldn't "legally" be sold through the system. So officially he was supposed to dump them. Instead, he tried to retail them in his own shop. He was threatened by the state govt with legal action for doing this, so he gave them away. Apparently, this was also illegal. Ordinary West Australians would have to say, "What the hell's going on?"

He got plenty of publicity through the media and a great deal of public support, so maybe the threats of prosecution have been dropped. At least we're not currently hearing anything about it. But just recently, the local council had a go at him for allegedly selling items which were not covered by his license. But just about every retail outlet sells things which really have nothing to do with their main business, so again we have to say just what the hell is going on?

Or, in other words, who [behind the scenes] is putting pressure on whom?

I will just add that Yabby is basically telling it how it currently is in WA. If we want to change things, then we need to be pragmatic. And the place to start is by acknowledging realities, whether we agree with them or not.

Wow, that link is great, Scout, many thanks for that- really fantastic, I have already emailed the farmer in my area for some more info about their produce. I will tell everybody about it too!I'll ask the farmers if they have any flyers and I'll put them in peoples' mailboxes if they'd like that.

Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeebyeeeee Vetman, I read your post before it got deleted and was disgusted by so much racism so I'm glad to see you go.

Yabby, yes that’s a problem that certain area’s in WA can’t get any workers, not only the meatworks but also other areas. A lot of people are attracted by mining (got the info from a documentary but don't know if it's the case all over regional WA), rather than working at say, Macdonanlds or other lower paid jobs.

Perhaps it can be gradually done, still, especially when other states are setting it off and will be successful. (I'm quite ignorant about the conditions in WA and farming generally though so perhaps I'm being too optimistic.)
But my gran always said: "When there is a will, there is a way." The solution is always there, but we need to find it, which is not always easy, but not a reason to stop trying.

There may well be particular problems in WA because of the low population base, but certainly in the Eastern States the opportunities for direct marketing are immense. The Farmers' Markets offer a great opportunity - as do direct sales to restaurants etc. I participate in a number of Farmers'Markets (with free range eggs) and we have farmers selling lamb, beef, cheese etc - all produced on their properties and all meeting the strict regulations involved.
It may not be the answer for every producer - particulary those who don't want to be involved in the marketing of their produce. It never ceases to amaze me that so many farmers are price takers rather than price setters. They seem to take delight in sitting and whingeing rather than getting off their backsides and taking their product direct to customers.

Rex, you are correct about the WA potatoe saga, but that has more
to do with Govt policy. WA has a history of Govt wanting to control
everything, so you have the potatoe board, the egg board, it used
to be the lamb board etc.

Its exactly why we still have problems today. Nobody was allowed
to export lamb from WA, except the Govt Meat Commission, which
included people like Lawrie Connel on its board. The net result
was little investment in the meat processing sector, a lose-lose
situation for everyone, until the year 2000.

Grower markets are a worldwide trend that is increasing. Supermarkets
arn't really so much against them. In Britain some supermarkets
actually volunteer their carparks, for them to be held. Their
thinking is that people might buy a bit of fresh produce there,
but they will buy all the rest, from toilet paper to corn flakes,
from the convenient centre right there.

In WA they are doing well and could be expanded, where there is
a population base to hold them. But at the end of the day, we are
an export state, with 10% of the population, producing 30% of
Australia's exports. I still think we should secede :)

So our marketing has to be export focussed, if you look at the
big picture. Growers markets will solve problems for many niche
growers and provide value for consumers who go there, but in
this instance I am trying to focus on the big picture, not that
of individual niche growers. 7 million sheep need to go somewhere
and growers markets can't deal with that kind of volume.

Freeranger

Good your posting. If I could WSPA in your ear when are you doing you debate? I cant wait.

Rex informative as well.

organics creeping up everyday.

Sure the Government make it hard to get export licences no argument there.

Thats why we started HKM to do it for them free of charge.

Freeranger is correct. There are ways of building more abattoirs and we must insist the Government and others makes that happen.

This Sad Story some peddle and if we stop live animal exporting it would destroy familes is not true.

Those familes have a responsibilty to find alternative methods or exporting their meat> LIKE IN A BOX.

To kill two million animals and send them in boxes is doable and is being done.
Well then we just increase two by seven. Its not rocket science.

The people at the other end still get their meat.
Dont give me that crap they will stop buying Australian lamb either because they wont. Even if they did Animal Welfare comes FIRST
So the answer is more plants.

As the muslims have shown great interest in farms and helping to establish abattoirs in Australia I cant see why the farmers dont take them up.

All I here is one person brining up reasons we cant build more plants in Australia.

What a rediculous argument that is.

We are more than capaple of producing our own meats out of plants.

Sure there are some doods getting kick backs from live exports in a number of ways.The AWB export Live animals so say no more.

These are the ones who are against stopping the trade.

We will build more abattoirs and the people will be looking at the Government who support just that.

You have been given some options and offers of contacts to do just that.

Farmers will be making heaps more because the farmers is also the exporter along with his mulim Partner or any other for that matter

. Get off your bums and take some responsibilty instead of as Freeranger said Winging.

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS AUSTRALIA SAYS NO

yo vetman
You sound like you care about animals so it would be a pity for you not to post.
Really I mean that.
Tell you something Vetman. I am as PRO Australia as anybody and I share the veiw mix or leave. however this post is not about that. I would happliy chat away to you regarding that on another post.
Just before you rush off, I have got to tell you the facts as they are as much as it amazed me
I attended a AFIC meeting a couple of years ago about the cruelty of Live xports to Muslim Countries. To be honest I was not expecting much of a hearing. There was not ONE person in that room that was not AGAINST it. not ALL muslims are undereducated backward low lifes.
Many are well educated good people. I came away thinking if Only I could get a roomfull Of Government heads with as much compashion and common sense.
Please continue to post for the animals vetman and we can deal with the other stuff on another forum. You just send me the link OK?
Cheers man.
Take A look At This
www.halakindmeats.com

Wendy, Still don't know when the debate is likely to happen. The subject of royalty payments or 'kickbacks' for allowing birds to be de-beaked will generate some publicity but when ... is an open question. We are concentrating on getting a realistic national definition of what 'free range' means so that consumers know what they are buying.

THIS is One LETTER YABBY. ALL WE NEED IS THE FARMERS.

We are pleased with the meeting we had between the Management of the two Companies.
We received your fax today and due to the reputable nature of your company we look forward to our future co-operation.

To take things to the next level, please address the following issues.
1. What is our duty to you?
2. Which areas will we start the abattoirs and co partnership of farms.
3. When can we meet with Australian Farmers?
4. When do you expect our two companies to commence work?

We agree for one of our managers to stay in Australia to help with our future work force and to communicate between the two companies.

As discussed in our meeting, we have a license to export from Australia to China and import to Australia from China. Whatever product is marketable either in Australia and/or China we are happy to co-operate with you, especially meat and fruit products, this being our specialty.

We are pleased to establish an animal farm with you but would like more information on how to establish this.

XXXX is a well financed and well established company with good reputation. Our trade partners spread in Central Asia, Russia, Korea and Japan. Australia is our new market and looking for to be your partner for mutual benefits of both parties.
We appreciate that your company will organize an inspection of abattoirs and farms in Queensland. And other States of Australia and as discussed WA.
End.

Start focusing what you CAN do.

You are now aware services come FREE to Farmers and great costs to me personally.
If you want change do something. It’s not hard to make a phone call.
If you can’t do that much to improve things for yourselves we consider you have NO
Regards for Animal Welfare and we will pursue you.

One by One Farmer by Farmer Australians SHAME LIST, Family by family.
Its the “Foreign Owned“ shipping companies that DON’T want changes.

As they Say On Teli

WHERE THE BLOODY HELL ARE EWES?

Free ranger
Thanks For That. Let Us Know What We can do to help.
We have some interest in Free Range poultry cattle Sheep With view to building new abattoirs where neccessary as you see above.

All we require is some of these other farmers to take some reasonsibilty for Animal Welfare like you.

[speaking of kick backs]

We appreciate all you do and the way in which you do it.
People might like to hear of some of the diseases that run through the battery hens sheds and the drugs pumped into them
Would you like to tell them for us .?

We need to stop people from thinking ALL animal Welfare groups are extream and against people eating eggs meat etc.
Thats where the real misinformation comes from. I enjoy nothing better than a steak and eggs but I also like to know from padock to plate its been done kindly as you do your eggs Free Ranger.

Big interest in Poultry Free Range farms From that Company In china.

I will give you a call

All vetman was saying was the truth, i dont see how you can get on your high horses about it maybe you need to open your eyes.
I dont believe he should be deleted for saying exactly how it is.
Wake up people !
U think that was racist? U heard what the have to say about australians?
They hold us as the lowest form of human imagine how they feel about our animals.

To paraphrase John F Kennedy:

ASK NOT WHAT ANIMALS CAN DO FOR YOU, ASK WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR ANIMALS.

As Wendy stated above:

"Start focusing what you CAN do."

When I started this thread I wasn't really quite sure what I could do, just simply that I needed to do something. Now I have a plan.

A submission to GetUp.org.

The creation of a small trader network (hoping Wendy can spare some webspace or help on this).

Obtaining an email list of religious organisations (googled catholic church - so many separate organisations, didn't know where to start).

Further goals:

When a reasonably comprehensive list of traders has been obtained, introducing them to the Muslim organisations who are (as Wendy knows) interested in setting up processing systems. Couldn't be better timing than right now - we need ways to learn to get along with each other and this is a great start.

Gaining support of supermarkets - as stated some provide carparks for Farmers Markets - there is nothing like creating some positive 'spin' for themselves, people who go to Farmers Markets in supermarket carparks will inevitably go into supermarket and shop. This is called WIN/WIN.

This world needs more WIN/WIN - say yes to positive support and ignore all the rest. Paying attention to negativity only gives it power - so do not engage, simply continue seeking your goals.

BennySampson, did you read vetmans post?

If so are you also supporting wholesale violence against muslim women? Are you OK with the kind of generalised insult he leveled at all muslim women?

I've seen some of the trash Kaiser Trad and others have said about australian's with anglo origins. I've not seen any muslim on this site advocating wholesale violence against non muslims or generalised insults by muslims against the non-muslim community. I'd be equally quick to ask for deletion if I saw that from a muslim on this site.

Yes some muslims behave in a disgusting manner in other places, see Bashir Goth's article on Islamists in Somalia for a muslim take on part of this.

The kind of post that was deleted took the liberty of the concept of freedmon of speech without the responsibility that goes with it. It is the kind of material that if used outside the context of this site could result in further restrictions in our freedom of speech.

Part of me would have liked to see the post remain on the site to see if our resident mossie bashers had the basic decency to condem it, I suspect that some like BD would do so but am uncertain about others.

I'm generally opposed to censorship however involvement in this site is is subject to an acceptable use policy which was breached by that post.

R0bert

Wendy, I know you mean well, but to put it bluntly, your model
is totally unworkable in a realistic sense. You simply have not
thought through the logistics and administration of your proposal.

Exporting involves lots of paperwork, also annual fees etc. Now
if 11'000 farmers had to go through the whole process, every
single time they decided to send 100-200 sheep to market,
you would need an army just filling in a myriad of forms.
Then there is the issue of various cuts going to different
markets. More and more forms! For what?

There is a coop here called Wammco, who have 1000 farmer members.
They do the thing en-bloc, with one set of paperwork, rather
then thousands. Anyone, including any of your alleged buyers,
is free to buy mutton from them. Profits are passed back to
shareholders.

Fact is that with present markets, even mutton going down that
chain is worth about the same as fertiliser. If you have better
paying markets, feel free to buy from them.

Come up with models which don't force WA farmers to forgo
100 million$ a year of income.

The live trade is overwhelmingly supported by WA farmers,
because it provides them with a living, as opposed to robbing
them. As Cameron Morse has shown, things are changing and
have changed, they will continue to change and improve.

If you really cared about animals, you would have thought about
the proposal I put to change things in the Middle East and
improve things for animals, even their animals there. But
as that does not fit into the present agenda, its fobbed off.

So the live trade will continue. Nobody has put up a better,
viable option, or how it will be funded. When they do, I am
sure WA farmers will take notice.

Robert
yes I did and he was saying he didnt want to learn a culture where women and animals are treated so badly. I do agree he went a little off track however it still is his opinion and should not have been deleted.

Hi..

Ive had a quick read thru the list of posts and some pretty in depth stuff regarding live animal exports etc.

The topic is titled 'Animal wefare' so I guess that takes in all forms of animal cruelty..
For instance living in rural sa I see instances all the time where I see a dog tied up for days, no shade, water bowl long since dry, no food, bones starkly protruding from ribcage, mange.
A good example of these animal lovers are farmers cattle dogs etc.

I ring the RSPCA but as a lot of the time Im passing thru wonder if they ever did get to investigate my complaint.

This goes for all kinds of domestic animal abuse, cats ,dogs, guinea pigs, shetland ponies etc...
My question is I guess do the general population turn a blind eye to the suffering of domestic animal as we sometimes do to say wife beating, child cruelty etc..
Its all very well(and extremely important) to speak of animal exports and cultural practices but I feel it is strongly a case of at least taking charge to change something that we DO have the power to change right now(next doors suffering dog, our own?)

In the meantime whilst working to make the big changes I hope that we are not so focused on the bigger picture that we forget the inhumanity that is inflicted on helpless creatures right under our very nose every day?

Alphafemale has started an extremely important thread regarding a suffering also very close to home regarding the right to die when life becomes unbearable..a look see?

They

Knocked Back contracts from Japan.? Wool growers are in deep trouble.?
Clever All you convince me and every body else of mate is they need to totally restructure the whole industry.
Instead of helping you sit there talking utter crap.
They have improved conditions since the Cormo?
Yeh like we just saw a few months ago on 60 Minutes again.
Oh Yeh But I forgot Richard Carlton was a dick too who got conned.
Nice knocking a bloke who is not here to defend himself but that would be your style.He was a smart and expereinced reporter.

What bugs me about you buster is you have gone out of your way to knock any ideas to open up or build new abattoirs or anything else for that matter.
You couldnt care bloody less about the animals suffering its real clear.
You flatter yourself mate with your high and mighty attitude.
Most people can see however you just troll the different posts being a pain in the arse wherever you are.
I not going to give names and dump on my contacts.
What I am going to tell you sport is my friend works on the ships and somewhere else at times.
You havent got a clue what you are talking about or your just a person who tells lies.
You reckon its all too hard and they couldnt do the paper work.
I read that somewhere you said there would be too much paper work.
Anybody who knows the indusrty could do it.
yeh mate even a bit of paper work.
Or do you reckon only smart arses like you can export stuff.
Ah Yabby. What do you export anyway I think I read Yabbys some place.
Bit Different to Halal Meat mate. You havent said one thing about
about anything you have not coppied off an net search.
I know because I am the real deal and these people are in the right.
As I said before I am no soft touch and if I say its cruel its pretty crook.
Give these people the respect they deserve.

Benny, yup Wammco knocked back countless orders from Japan,
until they got 45 Chinese workers. Aussies didn't want the
job. Yup, the wool industry is in deep deep trouble.

What you think of me, I really don't care lol.

I'll tell you what. In the middle of this week
the Newdegate Field Days take place in Newdegate.
Thousands of WA farmers will go there over a couple
of days. Why don't you take a placard or two, with
what you believe, some info that Wendy thinks is so
great, go and stand by the entry gate and promote
your beliefs and her cause. Find out for yourself
what thousands of WA farmers think.

Have fun :)

from the rural news
http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/stories/s1096508.htm

A group of West Australian producers has formed a joint venture with Malaysia, to supply the world with halal meat products.

The Wheatbelt Growers Co-operative from Dowerin has signed an agreement with the Perak State Development Corporation to provide 100,000 sheep and 16,000 cattle each year.

Perak wants to become the world distributor of halal food to Muslim countries, with a potential market of 300 billion people.

Chief Minister Tajol Rosli says that'll provide a valuable alternative for Australia's live export trade.

"As it is now, halal food from Malaysia is recognized throughout the world.

"There are some countries that produce halal food, but it is not recognised, especially by the Middle East.

"If it's marketed as Australian, then the recognition by the Muslim countries would not be as good as if it is marketed from Malaysia."

The deal consists of 100,000 sheep and 16,000 cattle would be killed in WA each year under halal slaughter codes and the meat exported to join venture partner Perak State Development Corporation in Malaysia.

The cooperative is negotiating for the slaughter to be carried out at xxxx and the first meat is expected to be exported in 12 months, but is hoped it will happen sooner.

It would seem Yabby not all of em. I will leave this forum but not before I adress the extream idiots matter. On that I think we might even agree for once Yabby. I can understand people getting pissed with this peta lot and Animal Lib lot and the farmers thinking up your noses because they tell everyone to stop eating meat. I cantyt understand your trying to put the boot into Wendys joint ventures with overseas .
Thats just plain stupid. Its The Way To Go mate If you care a dam about Animal Welfare In Australia.
Now I know why they opended another forum. Have Fun

Ozgirl, you are quite correct. There are plenty of local animal
welfare issues that need addressing, happening all around us.
The notion that we have it all so right in Aus, but that they
are all so evil overseas, is a flawed one.

The live trade became a focus as it had been raised on other
threads. Its great to have ideals, but they sometimes also
have to be balanced with rational debate and accurate information,
or the whole thing just becomes alot of verbal masturbation.
As thousands of farmers incomes are involved and they are in
deep enough trouble as it is, it was time for some reality to
come into the debate.

Benny, your press release is 2.5 years old. Hopefully by now,
100s of thousands of sheep have gone to Malaysia. How many
so far?

Shoot the messanger all you want, it makes no difference to me.
But before you talk of banning the trade, come up with some
real workable options, that don't bankrupt thousands of farmers
in the process. So far nobody doing the screaming and shouting,
has suggested any.

As a past exporter I can tell you that 95% of people who emailed
us, upon further investigation turned out to be frawds or dreamers
wanting to make a fast buck. I know quite a few Aussie companies
who even went broke over some of those deals, with seemingly
serious overseas companies. Life is not always what it seems
on the surface. Sadly people need pain to learn that, as the
world is full of the gullible.

For lovers of wildlife I've just heard the sad news that Steve Irwin was killed today.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,20349534-952,00.html

His contribution to the wefare of native animals has been an inspiration which should be long remembered.

R0bert

Very interesting posts since I’ve been on here last- sorry, been a bit time-poor.

Yes RObert, just heard the news on the radio in the car- how shocking! Having died instantly has saved him from extreme agony. He has two little kids too, so they’ll be in my thoughts as well. He will be missed!

Wendy, there indeed is such misconception about animal welfare groups; getting that message across to people is very important . As an ex-vegetarian I kind of know what they’re thinking.

Years ago we had a little veggie garden and my neighbours kept chickens- sometimes we had one visiting in our yard. We used to swap veggies for eggs coz at some stages we both had an oversupply- was much fun. Now my neighbours have moved away, and we don’t have time for the veggie garden esp with the water restrictions it’s hard to keep up, but we grow weeds instead- weeds, anyone?

Scout, good on you, for having set these plans.
I’ve looked for Catholic churches in my area- thought I start locally- many churches, I noticed, don’t have email addresses displayed.
When I get some time this week, I’ll send you an email. Just have to look through the posts to find it again;)

OZGIRL, good on you for dobbing in these animal abusers!
I find it hard to believe that people go out to buy an animal, then mistreat it. Such people should be banned for life from owning an animal! Not even a rat in jail.

Unfortunately, many people don’t seem to care to turn them in because they don’t see it as being any of ‘their business’. Many people still have the impression that dobbing someone in is a bad thing to do. This attitude needs to change- animal’s lives can be saved.
This morning on the radio I heard a plea to people to report child abuse- about half the time people don't tak eit seriously. It must be even worse in the case of animals.

OZGIRL, great thing to have addressed this- animal abuse happens everywhere.

RObert I too came in to post on losing our beloved Steve Irwin..

He was the guardian of earths wonderful creatures and animals, great and small..

The world is a poorer place for having lost him and I feel this loss deeply that we have lost this unique human being...

I hope god sends us another Steve Irwin as soon as possible..
The plight of animals on earths survival depends on it.

Yabby

He got it off our web page.

This may comes as a shock to you but we do have some live exporters interested in broadening their options.

Ok a question for you. Who is the hub Of Halal In the world?

Nobody asked John Howard to Ban Live Exports overnight.

We are not the farmers enermy the middle man and live ship owners are.

None of which are owned by Australians. Its ALL off shore ownership except two in QLD.

Farmers need to ask the questions.

Please show some respect for Scout re your langauge.

She has invited Church Leaders to comment apart from the ladies.

You are a very insincere dishonest person.

You posted you were happy to advise regarding the different areas in WA.

You called me. I was surprised at your lack of general knowledge.

I have tried not to get personal but it must be said you spoke of nothing but yourself and your ego is sickening.

If you dont want to help dont offer. In Short you would be the most rude Man I have ever had to listen to.

Your well known as a little man trying to big note himself and nobody likes you in WA.

From my enquires your not part of the boys club for want of a another term.


I will not be addressing you again because you are hell bent on misleading the public and Scouts working to get some answers.

In Short your a dick head [forgive me father for I have sinned] who wont even use his name. your not even in the industry

I dont hide my identidy.

We are not only on about live exports but ALL Animal Welfare issues.

Such as the guy who just got off on a good behaviour bond after killing a pet in the most terribly manner.

Dogs being cooked alive[mainly grey hounds] and being eaten.
.
I suppose you would say Oh well its to feed Starving people.

Actually no its NOT. Its considered a delicacy.

Please See > And Ask The church leaders Where Are YOU!

http://www.aact.org.au/greyhounds.htm

Ozgirl

Yes thank you for your post on Animal Welfare.

I would welcome information on those dogs that were reported to follow up.

You certainly have my vote on the right to die with dignity if I could have the link please if your posting again.

Well I think we can all say we are thinking of Steves Family tonight regardless of any Animal Welfare.

Not all people agreed with Zoos. However all people agreed he was a show man through and through and he loved life and his family.

Here was a guy larger than life and although we never expect anybody strong and full of life to die so young Steves family would be in disbelief.

Steve got pretty chummy with kerry Packer back there who of course was a live exporter, so I cant say we saw eye to eye on everything.

Tell you what however he asked for footage not seen publicly of live exports with the promise if he was convinced he would say nothing in the future.

He was quite a man.

Perhaps all we can do is say a prayer for strenght for his family tonight and close off postings although I am sure his work with wildlife land will continue.

His Silence will be forever heard.

Thanks Steve

"We are not the farmers enermy the middle man and live ship owners are."

Wendy, right now those so called "enemies" of farmers, are paying
them 60$ a head for their sheep, keeping their families fed!
Local processors are offering 76c a kg cwt or 18$ if lucky.
In today's West there is an article about volumes of sheep
selling for 50c to 2$. With friends like that, please
give me more "enemies" rofl.

Wendy dear, you are surely a caring lady, a lady who means
well, but so far all you have proven to be is a dreamer.
Farmers and their families would starve, if they waited for
your solutions!

The live trade is critical to WA and its farmers. Nobody
has offered a better solution so far, just lots of dreamers
who don't know the first thing about the mutton trade and
what is happening in WA.

No point in calling for an end to the trade, until somebody
comes up with realistic $ solutions for the thousands of
people that it affects. Its also time to give credit to
the many positive changes that the trade has made, in the
last few years. Credit where credit is due.

I'm just getting very tiered of the crapola talked about the
live trade, by many who don't have a clue about what is really
going on, just lots of well meaning dreamers. Its time somebody
told the truth, it was becoming painfull.

Stick to animal welfare issue in Australia Wendy, there are
plenty of them. Leave the live trade alone, until you have
a realistic solution. Bankrupting WA farmers is not an option.

Wendy ,kind words there for Steve..I would imagine if Steve were a 'mate' of old Kerry it would be in some way to benefit animals subjected to live export,such was his passion..'keep your friends close..your enemies even closer?'

Zoos or not..his zoos would have been run with the utmost attention to the needs of every animal and I think even saving endangered species..Id never question his motive on anything regarding animals,
but then I believed in him implicitly and of course someone here will surely enlighten me quick enough.

Wendy that thread put up by Alphafemale is called 'The dying are draining more than money,should we pull the plug?' the title is a bit of a challenge but the topic very important..it is placed directly under 'Religion as a business' on the general discussion board.

Cheers Ozgirl.

Sheeps Of Shame

Thousand Aussie jobs are exported by the live export industry.
For thirty years Australian meatworkers have been picketing ships and wharves in an effort to protect their livelihoods from the live sheep export trade.

Two recent abattoir closures in NSW have been directly attributed to the trade.

"Live sheep exports have had their day," says Australian Meat Industry Employees Union (AMIEU) Federal secretary Tom Hannan. "There's no sensible reason for them to continue."

"They're exporting Aussie jobs," says Hannan. "This is only going to benefit a few greedy Ship owners. The torment, cruelty and inhuman practices are just not worth it. They're giving Australia a bad name."

Hannan told Workers Online that Australia possessed fully trained abattoir staff accredited by the Islamic Council of Australia that fulfilled the Halal requirements of the Middle Eastern market.

4000 abattoir jobs have disappeared through live sheep exports.

In a bizarre twist media reports have suggested that Canberra is set to give the sheep adrift in the Persian Gulf to Iraq under a secret deal worth $10 million.

The foreign flagged Cormo Express is yet to unload its cargo of 53 000 Australian sheep.

The RSPCA vowed to stop the trade of live animals and animal rights protesters barricaded a Portland feedlot stalling the loading of 28,000 sheep bound for Kuwait.

Govt Abandons Mudgee Meatworkers

Meanwhile Craig Emerson - Shadow Minister for Workplace Relations has called upon the Minister for Workplace Relations, Tony Abbott, to guarantee that unpaid employee entitlements resulting from the closure of the Mudgee Regional Abattoir will be covered by his General Employee Entitlements and Redundancy Scheme (GEERS).

"Maybe the only hope for the workers of the Mudgee Regional Abattoir is if one of them turns out to be the brother or close relative of their local member and Deputy Prime Minister, John Anderson," says Emerson. "Perhaps then the Howard Government will pay them the money they are owed."

United Services Union is providing its members who have lost their jobs at the Mudgee Abattoir with food parcels and other assistance following the local government owned abattoir's collapse

The AMIEU (WA Branch) joined hundreds of thousands of workers throughout Australia, in the first of many actions, designed to focus public attention on the the Howard Government's anti- worker anti-family Industrial Relations legislation. Whatever it takes - the Australian Union movement will not rest until this rotten legislation is consigned to the rubbish bin of history.

Live Animal Export Protest - Parliament House
The AMIEU joined forces with the People Against Cruelty of Animal Transport (P.A.C.A.T.) in a protest on the steps of Parliament House about the excessive cruelty of the live animal export trade and the disasterous effect this obnoxious trade has had on the job security of thousands of meat workers employed
in abattoirs in Western Australia.

voice their anger.

The Live Export shipping companies are only interested in short term profits as they scan the globe for for the cheapest source
of live cargo for their clients - they have no long term commitment to Australian farmers and often use "flags of convenience" ships crewed with exploited cheap labour -
workers on one ship that recently docked in Fremantle
had not been paid for over seven months!

It is only when their unrestricted activities lead to the demise of the Australian Meat Processing industry and the last
remaining abattoirs are forced to close will many consumers
and farmers alike, realize the strangle-hold they have on
our pastoral industry. When farmers are offered a
"take it or leave it " price for their stock and consumers
are left no option but to purchase Australian meat products processed overseas for inflated prices and of
questionable quality

it will be too late

Let your member of parliament know how you feel and how you intend to vote at the next election
if they fob you off!!
The Federal Government have responsibility for all
exports out of Australia and as such could easily
pass legislation that would regulate and
control this obnoxious trade!!

Live Exports - what the papers are saying!

Interested in seeing how the press are reporting this disgusting trade?

If so click her

It was one of those times when I thought my ears were playing tricks on me. How could someone so alive and vital be dead?

I haven't been a big fan of Steve Irwin's, found his methodology questionable, so I surprised myself at my tears. No matter my personal preferences Steve was sincere, passionate and believed in himself. The world has lost someone of great integrity.

We need his postive energy, too many seek reasons why we can't improve or progress, Steve simply set out to do what he believed in.

I grieve for his family and wish them all the power they will need for the future.

There ARE alternatives to the way we currently treat animals, we can create win/win situations for farmers, the environment and ourselves. The naysayers gain their power by being listened to; time to tune them out. Steve Irwin hasn't gone his energy is still in the universe all we have to do is tap into it.

Wendy - your post on "abuse of animals' thread regarding farmed chickens was as informative as it was upsetting. The more we support independent farmers who use humane methods the more the big-time producers will lose out.

Long term planning = long term gain.

"When farmers are offered a
"take it or leave it " price for their stock and consumers
are left no option but to purchase Australian meat products processed overseas for inflated prices and of
questionable quality"

Once again, much misinformation being posted Wendy!
IIRC, something like 93% of cattle and 88% of sheep
are processed locally, so the dreamed up claims
are humbug.

The trade is certainly no threat to WA meatworkers, given
that local abattoirs can't find people to fill jobs now.
The WA economy, with its booming resources sector, cannot
be compared to the ES.

Right now, the live trade offers a real option to the
"take it or leave it" approach by local processors.

If Govts wanted to, they could remove payroll taxes,
various stamp duties and other charges they impose on
the local processing industry.

Bankrupting even more farmers, to satisfy the whimsical
claims of a few city slickers, is not an option

Scout what a beautiful sentiment..'his energy is still in the universe'..I felt instantly a little better when I realised that you were right..I cried for him too..but couldnt really pin point why, except to say he was a wonderful human who just lived his passion in spite of the knockers..a lot of whom were Australian.

But the Aussies will never out grow that cultural cringe..Id like to believe one day we can be appropriately be proud of our shining stars and what they mean for our country.

For those who haven't seen it.

Save Tasmania's forests [and the wildlife which depends upon them].

"Dear Friends,

I have just read and signed the petition: "Save Tasmania's Forests!"

Please take a moment to read about this important issue, and join me in signing the petition. It takes just 30 seconds, but can truly make a difference. We are trying to reach 20,000 signatures - please sign here: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/904244385

Once you have signed, you can help even more by asking your friends and family to sign as well.

Thank you!"

Thanks Ozgirl

I think, maybe, Steve's passing on has given a number of us time to reflect on our cultural cringe. He was well regarded and well known throughout the world. How many other Aussies can claim that?

His creation will endure and continue to inspire.

Rex

Have signed and have friends who will sign also.

Cheers

Thanks Rex, I have signed the petition.

Hi Scout and others,
A bit of a funny story.
It’s in ‘my plan’ to visit a new, different butcher or supermarket in my local area each week to talk to them about getting (more) free range produce in.

Today I went to a local butcher to do my free-range talk and to my surprise the dear old butcher said: “But all our meat is chemical-free, free-range already” and to prove it he showed me one of the docats coming from a free-range farm.

I said that I’ve been looking everywhere for free-range meat for years but that it is not easily available and asked why he doesn’t advertise it.
He said, “Oh but we do” and from behind a pile of legs of lamb he pulled out this piece of besmudged cardboard on which was written in black texta: “Chemical-free meat from free rang”. (the last ‘e’ didn’t fit on the cardboard, oh funny!)
He said that it’s always there but usually they don’t bother to put it in a visible place coz nobody asks for it and 'it's in the way'. How cute is this guy!

I said to him that I can almost guarantee he’ll get more customers if he puts a permanent sign up that points out that his meat is free-range and chemical-free. It’s something to be proud off, and he said, “I guess”.

I know where I’ll go for my meat next time and I know where I can tell people to go.
His meat costs only slightly more than the standard price, not a big difference for most cuts. Bought some beautiful steaks for tonight!

Perhaps there’s more free-range stuff around than we think there is!

Hi Celivia,
That butcher must be doing OK if he doesn't have to promote the 'free range' status of his meat.Makes one wonder if is genuinely free range, because to many people it's just a couple of words that help them to sell products at a higher price. Just like 'Organic'. Unless the products are certified or accredited there are no guarantees.

Yes freeranger, I see what you mean. Even though I had a ‘good feeling’ about the integrity of this butcher, I can’t be sure. I did see a receipt but he might get some meat from that farm and the some from an intensive farming method producer. How would the customer know for sure?

When you see meat in supermarkets that are ‘free-range’, these products have been pre-packaged and have a certification sticker/stamp on the package. I can imagine that at a butcher where there is no pre-packaging it’s probably harder to do this.

You said: “. We are concentrating on getting a realistic national definition of what 'free range' means so that consumers know what they are buying. “
Yes great thing- a place where to start, from where to set standards, something that can be trusted.

I buy my eggs usually from Manning Valley, do you know whether they are ‘really’ free-range? http://www.manningvalleyeggs.com.au

Celivia, Manning Valley's website looks pretty good. I don't know the farm and I can't see any form of accreditation on their website. Given the numbers of hens they appear to have it is likely that the birds are de-beaked or beak trimmed - but they may have found a way to run large numbers of birds without de-beaking.

Here's a list of the accredited free range farms in Victoria. All these farms are inspected annually and they meet strict requirements -such as no beak trimmed birds, low density production and grazing on vegetated areas.

Moore Brown Eggs
Labertouche Free Range Farm
diron@dcsi.net.au

Hens In Clover, Poowong Victoria
hens-in-clover@bigpond.com

Home On The Range, Myrniong Victoria
hotr@hotkey.net.au www.freerangeeggs.com.au

Golden Yolk, Lancefield Victoria
goldenyolk_eggs@yahoo.com.au

Freeranger Eggs,Grantville Victoria
freeranger@dcsi.net.au
www.freeranger.com.au

Donnybrook Free Range, Donnybrook Victoria
schance@ozramp.com.au

Free As A Bird, Tooradin Victoria
garz@netspace.net.au

Windy Hill Free Range, Seymour Victoria
Phone: (03) 5792 3866

Rutherford Bros Free Range, Seymour Victoria
seyds@bigpond.net.au

Lewis Free Range Farm, Birchip Victoria
jalewis@bordnet.com.au

Details of the genuine free range farms in other states are available from www.freerangepoultry.com.au in Queensland and whwppepper@bigpond.com in NSW

A FEW GOOD MEN

Ladies and Gentleman The Man above is one of them.

Thank you Free Ranger.

Men who try will always provail.

Constructive critisim is always good but Yabby You have done nothing for the animals or the other concerned posters other than try to discreit me personally.

I did not say I could do all this alone. We need for everybody to work together to improve things for the Animals, Famers and public.
That includes the Government too.



This needs to be adopted as a Government and Governments policy of the States And Federal Government.

We have had many meetings and yes its slow because i totally fund it myself and this stage.

The programe has already been adopted.

To Slaughter Here and send Carcuss to be Halal boned and cut is a very sure way of handling the labour shortage of present.

We will also be training more people as well.

We have good advise from the x Federal Leader of the AMIEU who is no fool after 35 years of leadership.

The AFIC Australian Federation of Islamic council and Councils.

I dont know what your real agenda is but i suspect you dont either.
I dont buy the story being concerned about farmers.
I asked you by phone to get the word out we were happy to pay the farmers MORE than they get now.
I also said we would offer partnerships to export making the farmer a producer AND exporter picking up the cream.
What you dont like is this will put the live ship creatures out of business eventually.
If you had of been SINCERLY looking to help farmers you would have given this the time of day.

I dont often get angry but you have totally purposely misinformed people about our Free Range co Joint Venture Proposal. Worse still you have lied to people by saying there is no suffering of Animals on board these death Ships. Do you really think! people are that stupid.
To top it off to bag Richard Carlton when he is no longer alive to defend himself.

Wendy I know exactly what my agenda is. The band of farmers who
have joined me know it too. They also know how much better off animals are,
because of it! The thing is, I just don't need to
grandstand and broadcast dreams, we just quietly get on and get
real results. We'll talk about it more openly, when we have far
more runs on the board then we already do, which is already
quite a few.

I certainly would not recommend what you are proposing to any farmer,
for I personally feel what you are suggesting is doomed to failure
and would not stack up in the real world. Feel free to prove
me wrong! Go and make it happen in the real world of Queensland
Wendy, before you destroy farmers lives in WA, with many animals
worse off too.

My point about live sheep boats is, as Cameron Morse showed,
alot of changes have happened. This is not just a rehash of
years old footage, but information from a week weeks ago, by
a credible, unbiased, intelligent individual without an agenda.

Alot is also going on behind the scenes to change things. Perhaps
the industry has one fault, it has failed to make these changes
known to the general public, rather just preached to the converted.
Just this morning I've been busy making sure that this changes
in the future.

I'm just getting very tired or Peta and other radical groups
totally misrepresenting the reality over here, with their own
little agendas. Its time that WA farmers started informing
the general public a little better, or the many radical groups
will land up causing more misery for animals then they will
ever help, through sheer ignorance and zealotry

Yabby
I am Tied of PETA too.!I agree its for their own little agendas.
I am tied of Animal Liberation . I am tied of Animals Australia.
I am tied even of PACAT although I must say they have done some best work in the past.
Like You I know People Who are and Have worked Behind The Scences.

I am fighting Against Peta Against The Extemem groups for the farmers and Animals.

Until We form Farmers support groups for FREE RANGE SLAUGHTER HERE Farms nothing will change.

Do you think its fair that Animals Australia self appointed themselves as the so called Federation Umbrella of Animal Welfare in Australia? ha?

Do you think its fair they "self appointed" themselves to represent the Australian pubic.Ha?

Did you read the letter I posted From Them written to a Free Range farmer refusing to support him. ha?

What do these people want Ha? You know and I know too.

Telling the Government "they represent the public "while protesting against people eating meat.

96 percent of Australians eat meat for pity sake.

Have you even looked at "our site"
No wonder the farmers are pissed off. I dont blame them.

Do you think its good that the public think ALL Animal Welfare groups are a bunch of nuts. ha? Dont you think people lying in the main streets with pretend blood on them outside a meat conference is off. I do.
Cant you see they are trying to stop us having ANY relashonship with farmers.

We are the enermy. We are trying to make the public see the truth. After having said all that the poultry pork cattle intensive feed lots ARE BARBARIC . They are CORRECT. your claims of improving Animal Welfare are the pie in the shy Yabby.

I am fully aware of whats going on.

You bullys THINK you can ONLY promote Live Exports.

Yabby

Let me Educate you.

Glenyce of Animals Australia cant stand for anything to be done unless its to her credit.

The members are all good people but misinformed.

These groups are consumed with inter fighting.

Animals Australia list of members>
Against Animal Cruelty Tas. (AACT)
Animal Action
Animal Active
Animal Activism Qld.
Animal Aid
Animal Liberation (ACT)
Animal Liberation (Qld)
Animal Liberation (NSW)
Animal Liberration (SA)
Animal Rescue Inc.
Animal Rights Advocates
Animal Rights Inc.
Animal Welfare League Qld.
Australian Catholic Study Circle,The
Australian Orangutan Project,The
Australian Wildlife Protection Council Inc.
Ballarat Organisation for Animal Rights
Blue Cross Animal Society of Victoria
Cat Protection Society of S.A. Inc.
Cat Protection Society (NSW)
C.A.T.S. (Inc.)
Choose Cruelty Free Inc.
Compassion for Animals
Great Ape Project
Help in Suffering
Humane Charities Aust. Inc.
Humane Society for Animal Welfare
Hunter Animal Watch Inc.
Kangaroo Protection Cooperative Ltd.
Native Bird Liberation Alliance
People Against Cruelty in Animal Transport
Project Jonah Australia Inc.
Save-A-Dog Scheme Inc.
Vegetarian/Vegan Society Qld.
Victorian Animal Welfare Association
Wildlife Victoria
Wildlife Protection Association of Australia
World League for the Protection of Animals

PALE are working with RSPCA QLD, so you would think that we would be excepted as members of WSPA.?
We are a large office with many people working twelve and sixteen hour day[unpaid] mostly seven days a week.
[ This Is our crime.!?

We say Eat meat but insist its humane.

With the exception Of the Humane Soceity in Sydney and A church The Catholic PALE is black listed via Glenyces orders.?

Why? Because we want to help farmers and we DONT tell people not to eat meat.
We are a threat to her and PETA.

You dont see one of them game to come on here and challange us do you?

You do your thing and I will Do mine.
I am used to people trying to stop HKM and PALE
Why Dont You Tell The people About the boat in WA that sat for a week off shore a few months ago.?

Dont bother to give me that jerks version because I know different.
SHAME

Wendy, quite frankly I have no interest in the many squabbles going
on, within your so called animal welfare movement.

My focus is on the sheep, the farmers and the buyers. All the
rest, simply don't matter in the bigger scheme of things.

You can continue to squabble away with whoever you like, its
your business. When you actually have a realistic, workable
solution which has been shown to make a difference, speak up,
people will take notice. Meantime I know of no runs on the
board that you have achieved, just lots of talk.

The live trade debate is highly complex, with many variables.
Fact is, they have been trading livestock in the Middle East
for thousands of years. They will continue to do so, with or
without Australian participation. We can actually make a difference
over there, if we try.

But hey, you squabble away with whoever you like. However if you
post nonsense, I will point out why its nonsense. Thats exactly
what OLO is for.

Thanks freeranger for all those links- but could you doublecheck this one, I’ve tried the address but doesn’t work. I looked at your website and am very impressed! Is that you on the picture holding the 140 gram egg? Wow that’s HUGE! Did you get to eat it;)

Ah! Thanks to PETA Yabby and Wendy agree on something ;)

Yabby, I don’t know if you have actually spent some time on the PALE and HKM sites- they are nothing like the radical, fanatic groups- really, have a good look, it all looks very realistic and practical, no-nonsense.

I might be wrong but I have the impression that you haven’t looked at these horrible video’s either about the treatment of exported animals- take a quick look. I do think that you are missing important info if you haven’t looked at all the information that Wendy has presented and the discussion will go nowhere if there’s stubbornness about not wanting to view Wendy’s links.
I’m sure that Wendy has read the report about that live-export ship you provided.

I'm feeling positive, overall about this. I really think the world in general is finally becoming aware of the cruelty of exports- the UN has set strict guidelines about the length of transports throughout Europe- and it’s a good thing too that WSPA has pressured a live exporter from Brazil to completely stop shipments of cattle to libanon. I’m positive that there will be more and more pressure from public and organisations like WSPA.

Yabby- you'll be such an asset if you could concentrate on positive things you can do- being negative and calling this realistic is not going to progress anything in the right direction. Oh please Yabby, just look at it from a different angle before you dump the idea.

It’s more realistic to believe that exports will be a thing of the past in the future than to believe that they will go on and on forever. They won't.

Does anyone know how one goes about setting up a wildlife shelter..?

Are there special permits involved,accreditations,courses to undertake etc

Would approaching Parks and WIldlife be the first step?

Be grateful for any info on this.

Freeranger, Oops for got to say which link,it's whwppepper@bigpond.com in NSW

Good idea, OZGIRL, is there a lot of wildlife in your area?

OZGIRL, I think QLD has just introduced a all state phone number for wildlife rescue's (of course I don't know it) and I recall seeing a number displayed in NSW earlier in the year.

Try your state govt web site and see if there is a number there. Whoever answers the phone during the day might be able to tell you what you need to know.

R0bert

Robert and Celivia.

Its in QLD only at the moment and its 1800animal.

Yabby I was not posting about squabbles but a corrupt system that has operated for years. You said PETA were on an agenda. I agreed with you. People need to know who is working with free Range Farmers.
At no time did I say the information provided through the many investigations was inncorrect. What I said was the animal welfare in Australia must have balance. To present everything from a vegan vegeatarian point of view is just plain stupid and turns the public and farmers off.

That does NOT mean I dont support Animals Australia and Animal liberation.
Glenyce has also the mind of a walking computer regarding ships and occurances in many intensive farming operations.

Lyn White is a lady of outstanding qualitys that is intersted in one thing only. Animal Welfare. Mark Pearson is one of the best operaters I have met.
There are some fantasic people involved.


Yabby I speak with the Ministers office on a very regular bassis and not just federal but many state Governments.

Your a unknown and you wont even use your real name.


The question asked about wild life centers can be answered by national parks and wild life Robert.

If you have a parcel of land in particular you need help with happy to assist.

I am going to post some new enquires from interested overseas parties.
If anybody knows any farmers please feel free to pass them along.

Free Ranger is doing all sorts of work at the moment regading the egss, poultry side of things so I will leave everybody to ask him general questions regading anything to do with that Area.

I will put up footage provided by our CEO RSPCA Mark Townend next week which will leave everybody in no doubt as to the truth regarding live exports. I warn everybody before hand it is very disturbing.
If you want to dispute it Yabby you can take it up with Mark.

I am sure he wont mind telling you a few facts of life.

Scout
I reckon that this Yabby is going out of his way to stop posters working together to go to the next stage of being active.
I told you all what I saw and that was just this end. I have read all the posts and sat back and watched. This guy has not offered one thing he is doing to improve animal welfare. Just writes crap about working behind the scene. Its utter garbage take it fro me. Hes a nobody.
Wendy You said you were not going to repond to Yabby Anymore but then you did. I know its annoying to have idiots post but you must look beyond that if you want this post to lead to something more.

The bloke goes on post telling everybody hes happy to advise the areas where you will get farmers in WA.
Then hes full on bagging you and as you said showed no interest at all. Wake up Wendy.
However he is purposly drawing especially you trying to distract both you and other readers off the real issue. Stick to working with the Muslim Leaders and forget him.
You clearly work with this CEO of the RSPCA and it seems you have a few lawyers and I see old Tom Hannan up there two.
Good Bloke To have onside Wendy. Tell Him Old Benny Sampson said hello.
Also Celivia I notice the Church post is again all Yabby going on about stuff nothing to do with a church.
If this keeps up everybody will loose interest in your site.
I think you should both tell him to POQ because hes on a clear agenda to stop your forums.
That My two bobs worth.
I am an old butcher Wendy but If you arrange footage i will walk down to my three local Churches and chat to them.
There you go girl you even got this old cow boy off his bum.
I hope others will offer likewise.

Hello everyone

Have been rather busy. But thinking about this site ALL the time.

Freeranger

Thanks for the free range list have copied it.

Yabby - Why always negative? Why not help instead of disparage. I know you are an intelligent guy, but have formed the impression (based on your posts throughout OLO) that you disagree just for the sake of it - I was giving you benefit of the doubt and assuming you were playing at devil's advocate. But you won't even consider that there are workable alternatives to live export. You complain about the threat to animal industry in WA - yet disparage attempts to create more abbatoirs (for example). I am really disappointed, I thought by now you could offer something, instead you are on the offensive rather than the proactive.

Benny - believe me, your POV is not lost on me.

I think, in spite of everything we have made great progress. I have a plan of action, so does Celivia, Wendy has increased her contact base and so has Freeranger. Sorry if I haven't mentioned everyone, but you have all given me a lot to work with and I really appreciate it.

Now all we need are some religious organisations to work with........

Celivia, Wendy and others have their little agenda to shut down
the live trade, using historical stuff to achieve it. That might
push your emotional buttons, but its far from today's reality.

I take a completely different approach to this whole debate,
because I live in the outback, I see stuff you people just don't
see. Have you ever seen a flyblown merino sheep with 5000 maggots
boring into its flesh? Have you ever seen a sheep with 2000
grasseeds sticking through its belly into its flesh? Do you know
what kind of suffering is going on there? That is here, in
Australia. In contrast, two weeks on a boat, with huge amounts
of new regulations, where animals are gaining weight, is quite
frankly trivial.

Yes the live trade was a cowboy trade, but its changing for the
better, to a point of near overregulation now. Fact is that the
livetrade increases livestock values in Australia and something
I've learned is that animals are looked after far better if they
are worth something. If not, you'll see massive cruelty, right
here in Australia, under your very noses, of which you city people
don't have the foggiest about.

Have you ever read the vet reports about the work they are doing
in the Middle East, to benefit all animals there? Australia
is making a difference there, nobody else is. I am for change,
for showing others how to do it, not dictating to others.

This whole debate is a huge and complex one, far too complex to
explain in a few simple posts on here. There are so many angles
to it, that you people have just never even considered

Yabby

I think people are very aware that the whole export business is complicated.

That is no excuse to not try and create better alternatives.

You are still in the negative on the very idea that others can make a contribution. And please get over this city/country thing you have stuck in your head - born in the country, m'dear have seen more maggotty animals than you can imagine, have watched the castration of cattle, shot, prepared and eaten rabbits. Cared for animals as volunteer in shelters. And tenderly held the head of my pets in my hands while they were euthanised due to terminal illness.

Like I keep telling Philo - don't make assumptions about people.

So basically, Yabby, either put up or shut up. Have no more time for your negativity. You have contacts - you could help if you wanted to.

We can create a more humane system of farming animals and you can whinge all you like but whinging isn't creative, action is.

Scout, I am certainly not always negative, except on this topic, as I think that on the live trade you guys are barking up the wrong tree and could in fact cause far more suffering of animals in Australia, if you are not careful. Battery farming, intensive milk production, where cows don't see the light of day, or pig and veal production as practised in the US, Europe etc, are far far worse issues and those that IMHO should really be addressed.

I admit that I don't waste limited posts on the verbal group hug thinggy. For me OLO is about rational debate, emotion versus reason, comparing different philosphical points of view etc. There are some very intelligent posters on here. I enjoy thinking about what they have written, others are just a waste of time. But its often worth reading through the time wasters, to find the intellectual gems that appear from time to time.

I certainly don't disparage building more abattoirs in WA. Build as many as possible, but Govts don't build them and won't build them.

What I do know is that the live trade keeps the meat processing industry honest and increases livestock values. With increased livestock values you land up with alot less cruelty happening within Australia, committed by Australians. At the end of the day, people act out of self interest, to ignore that point is misjudging humanity.

Wendy, looking forward to seeing your footage next week.

Benny, thank you, I will keep this in mind as an option if it damages my Church thread- will have to read what happened there since yesterday. Yes great, that you’re going to go to talk to your local church, Benny! This will be so good to discuss in the church thread as well- can’t wait! Thank you!

Yabby, you can always start your own discussion on the General forum if you really want to discuss this in detail.

Freeranger do you happen to know anything about Coles’ brand of Free-range eggs and their chicken breast fillets? It says on the package that it’s free range, chickens are free to roam etc and nice picture of chickens outdoors- but again, no accreditation on the package.
I’ve looked at some supermarkets so far, and have the impression that Coles is overall offering more free-range than others, but that’s perhaps the case in my area, I can’t say what it is like in other areas.
Also, if it’s not accredited, can we trust that it’s really free-range?

I wrote e an email yesterday to manningvalley to ask them about beak trimming etc. Waiting for their reply.

Yes, Scout, if we can't get any religious organisations that want to help, we probably have to resort to praying for one.

Celivia

Hi - I really think we are making a difference here. Benny is going to talk to his local churches - and that is where it really counts. Small steps - acting locally and it will build and grow, I really believe that.

The feedback from people has been wonderful - and then there are all those people who simply read OLO - they don't post but they DO take note - I bet some of the ideas presented here have reached them too.

Yabby, mate, words fail me - I'm not sure you even understand what we are trying to achieve. You talk about Australians not treating animals humanely - WE KNOW. Eliminating live export is simply a part of the thrust toward animal welfare.

Anyway, I'm off to pray for religious intervention......;-D

Scout, you’re right, even if we make a little difference in that people are becoming more aware of cruelty, it is at least something, and will accumulate into more and more people thinking about this.

Yabby,
I would be very willing to have a look at some footage that shows me (not tell me) that live exports are a fun-ride for animals.
I did read that report you provided, but it says nothing as this crew was well aware of ‘the visitor’. Unless there’s a hidden camera on all ships we’ll never get the real story.

I simply do not believe that the conditions for animals on a ship will be much better than the conditions for say, those pigs at Amanda Vanstone’s appalling piggery. To think that this has been cleared of allegations and that it was said to be entirely compliant with the code of practice only tells me that the code of practice needs to change- not that it’s OK for pigs to live all their bloody lives under these conditions.

There are more options than just the choice between having sheep suffer from blowfly stike and from suffering during and after live exports.
Do you want blue or yellow icing on your cake? Uhmmmm neither I’d like pink please.
Do you want to pay for this crap by cheque or by credit card? Uhhmmm neither I don’t want to buy this at all, thanks.
Live exports or blow-fly strikes? Uhhhm neither, I’ll choose blow-fly strike prevention and slaughtering in Australia, thanks.
We shouldn’t have to choose between two negative options, we should create more positive options and ban the negatives.

Going to hop to the Church post now- not much time left and haven’t been on there since yesterday

Celivia, the first thing that needs to happen, is for some accurate
information to be made available online, about the real status
of the live export trade. Its around, but just not easily accessible
to well meaning people like yourself and Scout. That should change
now, give it a few weeks. Frankly its only recently that I became
aware about how much rubbish about the trade is being peddled
on the net, by people who mean well, but are as religiously zealous
and one sided about this, as Philo and BD are about religion.

No I don't support Wendy's campaign, as I feel its doomed to failure.
There are more realistic options happening out there in the real
world. If true believers like Benny etc actually kept up with what was
going on in WA ag, they would have read Farm Weekly and been
aware that T&R are trying to get another works opened, with
absolutaly no help from the State Govt. Kim Chance was against
the Fletcher facilitation, perhaps he doesent want to wear egg
on his face by helping T&R now. Its a sad story. If Benny rang
Chance's office and complained, he would achieve far more then
trying to preach to churches.

Labour is another issue. All 457 visas for meatworks have been
held up since April, because unions complained that workers were
doing various jobs like boning etc. What nonsense! I was told
by Wammco that all they need is people who actually turn up
for work each day, are not on drugs etc, they train them.
Aussies just don't seem to want those kinds of jobs anymore,
prefering cushy jobs.

These are REAL issues that can make a difference. I'll let others
do the fairyfloss dreaming, based on flawed and out of date
information.

Thank you Robert for your help...the shelter I have in mind will be on a smaller scale to cope with the wildlife in my area.
There are a couple of people who do it on a 1-2 animal basis and it may be I start that way too..until I have gained some experience..

My children love the idea and my 13yr old daughter wants to be a vet so shes all for it...

Celivia, yes thanks for your question..there is a lot of wildlife up this way..mainly orphaned wombats whos parent is killed by roadtrains, lizards, kangaroos etc...

But I always feel a bit panicked when I hear of orphaned or injured animals up here because Im sure that there are scant if in actual fact any facilities that could cope with an emergency...even the only overworked vet lives an hour away.

So Im visitng a lady tomorrow who is at present is caring for the most adorable 4 month old wombat William, youve ever seen..she may be able to help.

OZGIRL, some useful looking links at http://www.fauna-rescue-qld.org.au/links.html and some Qld info on getting into wildlife care

http://www.epa.qld.gov.au/ecoaccess/plants_and_animals/rehabilitation_of_sick_injured_and_orphaned_animals/rescue_and_rehabilitation/

I don't know what state you are in but a google search on - wildlife rescue queensland - turned up heaps of stuff.

Good luck with that. Something I'd love to do but I'm away from home for to many hours a day to make it work.

R0bert

OZGIRL, I posted too soon. If your in NSW the WIRES (NSW Wildlife Information and Rescue Service) links page is http://www.wires.org.au/links.htm

R0bert

Robert and Ozgirl.

great Work guys. Sorry Ozgirl i missed where you were.

Celivia all subs go to the board of Animal Welfare.

As I work with the RSPCA and AFIC I can tell you whats going on.

When the public hear about these so called new plants in the middle East and holding yards they need to know tHEY are paying for it.
Thats right Australian tax payers have been paying SUBS for live exports and to build holding yards to ages.

Its 50 50 funded by the indusrty and the tax payers.
No I am not kidding.
As a matter a fact I lost our men who were building a plant for us up here to the Middle East.

.Rodger Fletcher does not live export celivia. He is a very successful man who employs many staff.
All his meat leaves in a box.
He hates the live trade.
http://www.fletcher-international.com.au/

Celivia take A look,. He can make a go of it

Ozgirl, Robert is right with the details he provided about wildlife shelters. Here is Victoria people are required to first become a wildlife carer with an existing shelter before they can apply for a shelter permit. That ensures they build up some expertise in the care of animals - plus seeing if they can cope with the problems of injuries and having to euthanase animals which cannot be released. We run the Margo Kroyer-Pedersen Wildlife Shelter on our property and most of the time it's great. Sometimes it's hard dealing with the results of people's stupidity or deliberate cruelty!

Celivia, the NSW contact on the list I posted is an email address for the NSW Free Range Poultry Association, not a website. Don't think they have one.

I've noticed home brand free range eggs and chicken meat in Coles and Safeway. The eggs are supplied by major producers who do not meet the standards of the various State Free Range Associations. I'm not positive about the chickens and chicken meat, but there is tighter control over what constitutes a 'free range' chicken for meat purposes compared with eggs

Given what seems to be Wendy's support for Fletchers, I'd like
to ask her to find out, why there is such a large discrepancy in
the price of mutton, between Dubbo and Katanning, Midland
saleyards. Why do WA farmers receive so much less for much
the same product?

Without a live trade, who is going to keep Fletchers honest
in WA, where they own the one and only really efficient
abattoirs?

Yabby...shut up...

Give the girl a break and hey, by the by Yabby where do I get a feed of Yabbys these days...
Tell me how to farm yabbys and Ill tell you something.
Cheers

Ozgirl Thanks.

He bugs me too but only because he is purposley trying to confuse readers knowing they probably know little about abattoirs and the meat trade.

However I would really like to answer that question if you dont mind.

Better still lets let Rodger Answer it.
Please click here to here Rodger Fletcher speaking on live exports animal cruelty and Jobs for Australia. For those of you who dont know rodger is the Dick Smith of meat works and the Steve Irwin of meats works. A true Assuie hero. The Live Expoter shiiping people hate him.Please take the time to listen tothe truth. Oh and yabbie we work with Rodger.

http://www.abc.net.au/westernplains/stories/s1112269.htm

Everybody
Family First
We got a meeting with him after two years myself Mark Townend RSPCA CEO QLD and the head Of The Catholic Animal Study circle for Animal Welfare group John Drennan A teacher of English Langauge and literacy . John is one of the few good men I spoke of in the church. John has lived in the middle East and seen much of the way Australian Animals that WE send ALIVE are treated.

To: steve Feilding
Cc: ivan.herald@familyfirst.org.au ; Dargan, Felicity (Sen S. Fielding)

Dear Senator Fielding ,Felicity Dargan Ivan Herald.

I write further to our telephone conversations and your request I put something in writing outlining the reasons to support RSPCA and all Animal Welfare Organisations to Ban Live Exports. You requested just a few lines however this is such an important issue to every Family In Australia it would not do the cause or yourselves justice for me not to inform you fully.As you are no doubt aware there is a Senate inquiry into Animal Welfare being conducted at present so now is a good time for you to have all the facts if you did not have all of them before. We also have elections coming up again soon and our members write continually enquiring as to whether PALE has received Family Firsts policy On Animal Welfare.. We have waited a very long Time and would appreciate your answer and your policy please.[asap]

First to support the demands of the ninety six percent of the I am sure you are already aware of the 60 minutes report on the Live Animal Export Trade.
hhtp://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rrat_ctte/animal_welfare05/submissions/sub72.pdf Sub From AFIC

http://www.rspca.org.au/campaign/liveexport_alt.asp please See RSPCA On LIVE ANIMAL EXPORT TRADE


The live export trade is inherently cruel, is costing Australia jobs and national income and could be effectively replaced by a chilled meat export trade, with broad benefits.
There has been NO reply!

Over Six thousand words were involved with much info to the Christian Steve Fielding.
It iS The reasonsibilty of ALL CHURCHES and LEADERS to stop Animal Cruelty

Hello Everyone

Thanks again.

Suggest that we may no more attention to people who simply want to 'muddy the waters', and that way reduce any negative influence they may have - its a karmic way of looking at things.

With this in mind, I note the momentum that is continuing to grow with the exchange of ideas, action and useful links.

I am learning alot and see this thread as a useful resource in continuing to create greater awareness of animal welfare.

Afterall, taking care of animals is really about taking care of ourselves. We depend on our environment to live; our entire economy is reliant on a healthy and sustainable environment. Organic, chemical free, biodynmic farming practices are long term sustainable as well as being a more humane approach to farming of animals. Not only that, these practices do not impact so drastically on the environment, thus our native animals have a better chance for survival.

Celivia - I note that our two threads have had the most 'hits' out of all the general discussion threads.

Well done to everyone for their contributiions to this debate.

Cheers

Scout

Yes You are right. Lets stick to the job at hand.
I could debate Yabby till the cows come home. However that is just what he wants!. He thinks that way you will all get bored or think its too hard to slaughter in Australia.
I promise I wont get side tracked answering purposely negative posts anymore.
Yourself and Celivia are doing a wonderful job not only for the animals but as a start to Jobs for Australia.

When you are ready I trust we can help support whatever you feel is a next best step.
Your forums are big, really Big and gaining more attention each day.

The time you take from your very busy days is apprecited by the animals. Trust me on that one.

I have a list of people enquirying about the free Range farms with a view to build new abattoirs or plants as we call them.

These oportunitys should not be missed.

The elections run next year and we need some TV adds running with footage of live exports asking.

CHRISTIAN CHURCH LEADERS WHERE ARE YOU!

Have you or any of the other posters any ideas on how vwe can raise funds for such adds.

I know after years of this work its the only way to make the public aware.

Scout And Celivia.

Your spinning them on their heads.

Darn great Forums Both Of them.
keep up the good work.

Thanks to all the other posters and any ideas for our TV adds or anything else wecome.
Scouts got most everything in hand alone with celivia and I am happy to put some ideas up if asked.

Something tells me however these two women are well able to handle anything.

It is great to see such an overwhelmingly large number of posts on this important topic. I won't even attempt to read all the information and I won't bother contributing too much as I am sure it would just be a replication.

I have to note that it is particularly heartwarming to find something proactive in support of animal welfare that isn't driven in circles by bulemics who have turned vegetarian to 'respectably' maintain a low fat diet (but claim animal welfare is the motive). They seem more interested in propagating vegetarianism than practical solutions to animal welfare.

I am confident that change could occur. A perceived financial advantage is desirable (eg. no loss of product due to deaths in live export), a perception by politicians that they will lose votes if they don't come to the party, and a perception that the issue is trendy so that Church leaders who get involved with popular issues come to the party (whether or not you consider it relevant to Church, if environmentalism can be preached instead of eternal salvation, I'm sure that the same trendy minded leaders could push another cause if it were equally trendy).

Rofl Wendy, of course Fletcher speaks against live exports!
The one company who stand to earn zillions on top of their
already zillions are Fletcher, due to their virtual monopoly
in West Australia. Sheep prices would crash through the
floor, farmers would go bankrupt, Fletchers would clean up
bigtime!

Interestingly a larger and larger share of the workforce
in Narrikup just happens to be Filipinos on 457 visas. Aussies don't
want the jobs, so Wendy's employment threory is down
the toilet of bad theories yet once again :)

All this fuzzy feel good stuff by you girls frankly amuses me
and is one reason I post on OLO. In the end, reason and reality
will prevail, anyone who doesent apply it in the real world
of politics, is soon shot down in flames. Patience has
always been my virtue :)

As you follow your fuzzy feelings, you totally ignore the
thousands of WA farming families, in drought, trying to feed
their children and livestock, with negative budgets, understanding
how much it matters to them, if a sheep is worth 20$ or 60$.
Do any of you make a living from agriculture or live on farms?

http://www.livecorp.com.au/downloads/Expolding_the_ Myths_ Feb_ 2004.pdf

Explains more about some of your fantasies :)

yabby..yabby..yabby.

OZGIRL..OZGIRL..OZGIRL.

What was the meaning of that last stupid post of yours?

Yabby, you sound like a regular guy who actually knows what he's talking about - respect mate.

As so far as the rest of all of this is concerned, I can't believe that this subject - animal welfare - gets more attention than any other topic on the entire OLO site. It just goes to show you where people's brains are at.

Ah yes, I hear the message, screw your brother, screw your sister, screw everybody, who cares? But don't screw with sheep, the sisterhood will get their knickers in a bunch.

Glory be! Glory be!

If I hadn't seen this with my own two eyes, I never would have believed it. The sheeples ride again. I cannot tell you folks just how much of a big laugh I'm having right now. I can hardly wait for the next exciting episode - "Women fight for sheep's rights!"

YO!

L-O-L!

The sisters just keep getting funnier by the day.

Mjpb, thank you for your input.

Please keep contributing to this worthwhile topic and share your thoughts.
It`s a great informative Forum and I hope that many more people will join in the discussion and help the animals in a big way.

maximus, maximus, oh maximus...dont bother buddy.

MJPB

You Got My Attention.!

Its clear you have had some experience with extreme groups. Probably your thinking this looks interesting but you dont want to get too invovled. If I am correct you have be burnt out with the inner fighting and snobbery of groups and the totally counter productive rallys against people eating meat. I promise you this is! different. Please See. http://www.livexports.com/
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

OBJECTIVES
To form Free Range Farmers Support Groups
To Form jobs For Australia groups

Advertising.
TV Adds To educate the public about The lack Of Leadership From Church Leaders Regarding Animal Cruelty.

SOLUTION
To Introduce Farmers at Grass Roots Levels to Overseas live importers of Animals with a view to form cojoint ventures of exporting meat in boxes.[ They are very interested however this needs to be a Government policy]
ADVANTAGES.
Better Animal Welfare.
Farmer becomes Farmer and expoter cutting out the middle man[live ship offshore owners.
Domestic Abattiors updated at no cost to them into export accredited plants.
More Abattoirs built at no cost to farmers.
More jobs For Regional Areas.
Training provided to aboriginal and regional people. country towns re open. Oportunitys for people making a sea change for employment.

What we need to do now is to all write to the AVA very publicly because most people do not know who is reasonsible.

We need to stand up against the anti meat eating fund raisers.

We Need To Ask the v newspapers and other media to declair any conflicts of interest publicly in reagards to media gaint ministers ownership of intensive farms and involmentment with live exports. We need to demand ALL Animal Welfare advisers can NOT have a conflict of Interest.
We need the Minister for comunication to deal with conflict of interest. We need To Let the public know We had another Ship Load Of Sheep STUCK here! In Australian Waters While it was nOT repoted to the Australian Public

Hope You Stick Around.

To add to our store of knowledge here are few links that people can cut and paste and hopefully find of help and interest:

Animals Australia:
www.animalsaustralia.org

Animals with disabilities:
www.animaldisabilities.com

The Cruelty Free Shop:
www.crueltyfreeshop.com.au

The Wagglz:
www.thewagglz.com

A short movie about animal rights:http://brightlion.com/InHope.aspx

Say no to animals in pet shops:
www.saynotoanimalsinpetshops.com

The Lost dog's home (VIC):
www.lostdogs.com.au

The Victorian animal aid trust (VIC):
www.vaat.org.au

Lort Smith Animal Hospital (VIC)::
www.lortsmith.com

Monika's doggie rescue (NSW):
www.doggierescue.com

Free to good home :
home.pacific.net.au/~shazb/F2GH/

Pet rescue
www.petrescue.com.au

National Desexing Network
www.ndn.org.au

Senior Dog Rescue:
www.freewebs.com/seniordogs

Sydney dogs home
www.sydneydogshome.org

Canine foster care
www.caninefostercare.org.au

Bendigo Animal Shelter
www.bwc.com.au/bas

Best friends rescue:
www.bestfriendsrescue.com

The Geelong Animal welfare society
www.gaws.org.au

The young animal protection society
www.yaps.org.au

K9 Dog rescue group (WA)
www.k9dogrescue.com/

Cheers m'dears!

Freeranger,
yes that’s the problem, I have tried to email them to ask for a website but email came back with error message. Glad you’re working on definitions and standards etc- it’s so confusing.

Wendy,
That Fletcher site looks great. I understand he only exports- or does he perhaps supply in Australia as well?

About fundraising. You know, the RSPCA always sells cute Christmas cards around this time of the year and I always buy a packet of them.
It made me think that it would be nice if such cards were available from PALE website for fundraising. Perhaps there is a photographer or artist one of us might know who wouldn’t mind taking a few pictures of for example, * a cute calf with a Christmas bell, or * a cute piglet or pig wearing a wreath, or * lamb wearing rendeer headband, awwwwwwwww. Is that too daggy? Cute pictures or drawings could even be turned into Christmas tablecloths (from recycled paper).
This idea is probably not a good one to raise funds quickly this year because it’s probably too late to arrange all that for this xmas, but it’s a whole year away to get it ready for the next one. Perhaps the RSPCA could work with you with this idea since they have already been doing this for years and might give you details about the production of cards etc.
My ideas are mediocre, but what if you started a new discussion on How to Fundraise- many people who do not read animal forums might be interested in fundraising (church people might be good at it?) *Smile*.

continued

Yabby
thanks for the link about facts of live exports. I hope that you read the report Wendy gave us as well.
Yabby, the first point in this report is stating that the export is not cruel. I think that live exports ARE cruel- even if the animals are being treated well during shipment, they are still on board for days or many weeks in fairly cramped positions. BTW why do some ships have mincers on board or throw sick or dead animals overboard as reported and in some cases they’re still alive. I am looking forward to the footages of shipments to prove that exports are not cruel.
Yabby, it is not only a concern that the animal exports themselves are cruel- but also how our animals are being treated once they reach their country of destination.
So I am not at all convinced that it is a myth to say that exports are cruel.

Scout,
yeah our discussions are a hit, and we are amusing as well according to some troll. What more do we want? Oh thanks for that long list of sites, will have a good look at them later.

Celivia

What an absolutely brilliant idea - discussion on "how to fund raise"- with 'for animal welfare' in small print, tee hee! I think I may have alienated too many Christians with my comments on your thread. Shame really.

Hey Rex, how about it? Wanna start a discussion?
Or Yabby?

Maybe R0bert?

Just thinking about long distant travel. I know how well I DON"T pull up when flying to LA and I chose to do it AND understand the reason why. Animals have no choice, don't know why and even if their physical needs are tended to (although doubt there is sufficient space - too uneconomical) psychologically they are stressed, which as we know, manifests itself physically as well as mentally.

For anyone to argue that animals are not harmed by long distance transport, sounds more like wishful thinking to me and self justification to ease a guilty conscience.

Scout

You need to know many groups work under the extreme rules of NOT supporting Free Fange Farmers

People welcome to join whoever they wish
Protesting about people eating meat is anti productive

Damage done by extreme groups lying around the malls naked with pretend blood on them
It angers Farmers getting them off side, we need them onside.

Makes it easy for the Government discreit ALL animal Welfare people as extreme.

A clear agenda with PETA and groups that work with them.

Rallys are controlled by the leaders.

They keep themselves in paid jobs.

Money wont help if its just going to keep certain people in cushy paid jobs travelling around with expences paid.

NOT ALL GROUPS ARE LIKE THIS.

There are some great groups for smaller animals such as cats and dogs.

If anybody joins AA Animals Australia or Animal Liberation you are automatically banned from working with our group PALE

Why? >Because we are working direct with Muslim leaders to promote contacts with overseas Muslim buyers of live animals and put them in contact with Australian Farmers to build more abattoirs we are black listed by Animals Australia and AL

Its all very political.
.
PALE Charges membership $1

Unless we have an alternative to live Exports it will! continue and get stronger.
On Animals Australia cover it reads AA is the peak Animal protection body that represents animal groups thoughout Australia Umm by whose Authority?

Certainly Not The Governments or RSPCA

We are the only group in Australia to be working with RSPCA QLD
.
RSPCA are the Animal Welfare in this country

People should not be made to feel guilty about eating meat!

However PALE is the only Ban live Export full time office in QLD and in fact Australia.

Its NOT just a fund raiser.

So anybody who can give ten minutes or ten hours time to help us stop live exports and encourage more abattoirs open to slaughter in Australia we ask you to contact us.

Looking for branches and helpers in all other states.

I will pay outgoings.

http://www.livexports.com/

A few assorted comments.

www.crueltyfreeshop.com.au
If you value your own health, get a copy of The Chemical Maze [subtitled Your Guide to Food additives and Cosmetic Ingredients] by Australian author/researcher Bill Statham. ISBN 0 9578535 2 1. Check out some of the ingredients in these shampoos etc and you will find that Bill recommends that you use caution before putting them on your skin. Just because something is sourced from a "natural" plant, this is no guarantee of harmlessness. Think of tobacco, for instance.

Interesting sites and links:

http://www.stopthesealhunt.com.au/site/pp.asp?c=esJRK5PGJnH&b=1485275&msource=DR060901001&tr=y&auid=1949586

http://www.getup.org.au/

Natural, unnatural, free range, humanly killed, all feel good fuzzy stuff. Stop enslaving and abusing animals for your gluttony. Animals weren't designed to be fenced in, kept pregnant so you lot can gorge yourselves. Filled with hormones and additives so they grow faster and taste better for you, ground into powder so you can have your skin looking like fried pasties.

But none of you have come up with anything reasonable, as it may harm your economic or food addicted vested interests.

Do you drink your coffee white, eat bread containing dairies. What about the environment for animals, doesn't that matter, what about their mental health,doesn't matter, what about animals rights to be free to lead their lives as they were designed, doesn't matter does it.

If you want to fight for animals, give up the use of their products, otherwise your nothing but a hypocrite. Fight to have more land given back to animals, remove all ferals from the country so natives can get back their land. Doesn't matter does it, just give me a long white and cream bun. Then puff up your feathers and brag about your activist attitude. But this is all you'll do, another white with cheese burger thanks.

Without an ethical stance, its all just an ego trip. Do it yourself first, provide a believable example, not just rhetoric like other brain dead ideologists. But it won't happen, no ones game to take responsibility for themselves.

Celivia, Sorry about the email address not working for the NSW Free Range Egg Producers Association - it's the only email address for them I have on my system and as far as I'm aware they don't have a website. The phone number for them is (02) 4572 3315.
I'm expecting we will have a draft national standard for free range egg production by tomorrow (Sunday). Then it's just a simple matter of getting it accepted as part of the industry regulations!

Alchemist, I already raised this suggestion, but apparently its better to be kind to the animals and just keep on eating meat...

Not that I havent come to see the error of my suggestion.. I mean that is going a bit far?
But I could see that if producers and exporters are to be stopped in their tracks and to sit up and take notice they would only respond to an economic motivator, such as boycotting meat and meat products.

Alchemist
You will never ever stop people eating meat, or drinking milk or eggs etc
What we can insist on is that Live Animal exports are fazed out as quickly as possible
What you can do is insist the abattoirs are re opended or new ones built in Australia
We can insist on animals being allowed to walk around free and not locked in small pens feedlots and intensive farming. There is no money for this here so we need to bring in some funds from overseas to work direct with farmers. We can insist on gas being used to render an animal unconsious intsead of some methods being used. They say they have tried that and failed but I dont think they tired too hard, If they can send men to mars they can improve on that.It would be good if somebody opended a chain of fast foods made of alternative products to compete with Macdonads etc.
Whatever happens there is no way one or two people can arrange all of those things and more alone. They need public and Church and Government support.
At the end of the day every person needs to work united to improve conditions and do as much as possibly.
The live export business is truely horriff and without hestiation I say our Our Greatest shame. The ones who can stop it are the people who are buying the animals alive now.
Its the way we must go and to those people we must try to convince to build plants in Australia to purchase and co own them because the one thing which is very clear is that Australia are not going to do it alone.
I repeat Telling others not to eat meat will only backfire on the very animals we are trying to help. Personally like you I wish! people would stop eating animals TODAY forever. However I am practicle enough to know thats never going to happen.

Thank you, freeranger (our eggspert). That’s great that your draft is ready- good work! This is exactly what we need- hope it will soon be accepted!

The Alchemist,
I agree with you that it would be better for animals if people stopped eating meat. But like Wendy, I can’t see that happening. There have been extreme animal activist groups for ages now and it would have been ideal if the lives of animals actually improved because of their actions- but not much at all has happened in favour of animals.

It’s understandable that you care so much about animals that you don’t want anything to do with things that would hurt or kill them.
I am an atheist as well and I once was a vegetarian for about nine or ten years. My opinion very much matched yours.

But from experience I have figured that if people who care for animals are refusing to start ‘somewhere’ to improve the conditions for animals because they want nothing to do with the killing etc, then unfortunately nothing positive at all will happen for them.

Insisting that everybody must become a vegan or vegetarian is, unfortunately, unrealistic.
People won’t stop eating meat or produce.

So I felt that I had to make a choice:
Either I do nothing to improve conditions for animals but keep insisting everyone will become vegans- and the animals will keep suffering because nobody does anything practical to improve their living conditions and slaughtering methods.

Or… start somewhere in the middle- we look at the animals’ cruel living conditions and try to improve on that, step by step. Not ideal because it takes a long time, but if the other option is to just tell people to become vegetarians, then nothing changes. That’s not what I want- I’d rather see things slowly improve than nothing happening at all.

If interested, you can check what I and others said on the OLO called: Legal abuse of animals; I have to beconcise here. http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4594

This thread so far has amassed 140. posts...is that some kind of record...and Celivias thread trailing only by a few...great work. you 3.

I can't understand the reluctance to acknowledge the depth of feelings animals have, nor how their individual personality's are effected when they realise they're going to slaughter. Not accepting animals communicate on levels we aren't capable of properly understanding, doesn't give you the right to enslave, torture and slaughter them for self gluttony.

Considering the huge amount of scientific and medical evidence showing all lifestyle disease is caused by the consumption of meat and dairy products, yet you condone the continuing barbarity against them. Even though it causes you illness and health deterioration.

That's the same as monotheists preaching love and caring, whilst bombing and destroying. I can understand that form of thinking, but it's rather primitive an unevolved, considering our understanding of diet and lifestyle.

I'm quite happy for people to continue to go about their lives in the disgusting way they do regarding animals, I've lived on farms and worked in abattoirs when young, so I'm fully aware of the humane way they go about preparing your barbaric indulgences.

If you make a choice, you either choose to improve your approach to life or return to the state you wished to be rid of. Not very responsible nor rational going backwards. I tried to develop a balance, but realised that all I was doing was fooling myself. Once you sit down and get to know animals, you'll begin to understand how they talk to each other, how much they care and how sensitive they are.

More cows, more sheep, more environmental devastation, but that doesn't matter does it. Build more abattoirs,and turn them into more comfortable gas chambers, typical followers of Yahweh.

You either live your principles, or you just puff up about them. Compromising when it come to the slaughter of intelligent and peaceful beings, seems a weak cop out to me, unless you believe in god, then any fantasy's possible.

Celivia.
Your your ideas are good.
Perhaps somebody might look into Tv adds.
Already enquired locally, 250 per week ,for a TV add 30 hits each month.
Adds should be asking for funds to go to court and having a go publicly at Church Leaders.

1 Court> People Verses the Queens Council. Course of action to be discussed off line.
lawyers say we can get changes To the ACT.
We can get world media attention and Shame the Government and our Church leaders.

2 AT The Same Time We Need everybody! To support the HKM proposal and push the Government To adopt it as policy.

3 We need to PUBLICLY PUSH THE AVA To support it also.
Church leaders would be good Labour SHOULD.

4 We need Farmers Free Range Support groups to encourage farmers like the Free Ranger.

5 Jobs For Australians Groups!
If somebody wishes to I could set up a trust account through RSPCA QLD for the court case and TV adds/

Please Note This project is ONLY supported by RSPCA QLD[ One Of The FEW Good men!. Perhaps another time I will speak of RSPCA in general. Presently I am too busy.
ALChemist
I used to prayed for guidence to help animals. I was sent to the Islamic Leaders much to my astonishment right after the world trade.

I was alone and faced 42 Islamic Leaders[Muslims]/I was shocked by their "sincere" responce.
Sometimes in life we have to do things differently than we expected.

The old saying God Works in mysterious ways applies. Dont be bitter towards people just do what you can. I love Animals enough to kill them as quickly as possible. Anything to spare them the terrifying mentally savage trips. Yes I will build plants God willing and I will weep for each animal. But We MUST do something.
Then you may be surprised how quickly Allah blesses the Alternative meats produced from our Halal vegetable farms Why Not help Us with the Court Case?
ENFORCABLE codes of practise.
The Animals need everybody to work together.

Whatever It takes.

For The Animals.

Sweetheart. Animals are smart. They have personalitys and yep they sure know when they are going to die. I worked in enough places love to tell you that.All the crying in the world wont stop people eating meat. Been around a long time. You have been brain washed by one of these extreme groups. They remind me of a cult. I looked at this co joint proposal. Boys and I even discussed something similar. Anybody with a brain can see it is the only answer.
I loaded animals onto those ships as well. Yep cruel old me. Hate me if you want to but its not changing a thing.
Have you even thought as to another way to faze out live exports.
Nah I didnt think so. I dont know how Wendy and the others have been so patient with you. Look Love do you want people to work to make it at least kinder or dop you just want to preach from your higher moral groud offering no alternatives and rubbishing the people knocking themswelves out to find some.
It seems to me Wendy has done an awful lot of work and from what i have read so far at her own cost as well. I reckon we should support her ideas and I am up to help if anybody else isnt.
I mean lets get on with it instead of being so nice to somebody who has been nothing but bloody rude to the only dam person that I can see except for Celiva Scout and a few others to at least improve conditions fror animals.
Beleive it or not I like animal too but crying about people eating them works against them. Are you so stupid you cant see that. If you want to be taken seruiosly in life you have to present your case in a rational manner. Your not doing that. People will say ah their all crazy. Wendys saying jobs for Australians. People are going to listen to that. Wake up your very annoying and show some respect o a women who is trying.

Benny
Your right we must move on. Celivia I have pictures,great idea.

Alchemist. I have heard those words before.
Why Dont I set up a plants as an example. Read the web page its been done in WA.
Your either purposely misleading the readers or you have no idea of the costs involved.
Live exports is a huge industry and growing faster! every day. I am not Robbinson Cruso. I dont have that type of money.
The difference is I am not going to collect money from the public so they can have that warm fussy feeling.
God willing I am going to work with others to make it kinder. Thats ALL! anybody can do.

When I first! enquired about live exports in 2002 I called the Ministers office then Animals Australia.

I spoke To Glenyce who informed me live exports were too!! political!! so they did not do it.

I called each and every animal liberation in Australia, [Most are members of AA ] They said they only did small animals and speak to head office Animals Australia.

I tried for years to get them to work together.

OK the good part is because of their fear of loosing control they ended up helping with the live export issue.

Your extreme lot have a history in inner fighting worse than any political party I have ever! seen.
It to leadership of Glenyce because staff such as Lyn White are wonderful
Glencye knowledge but she needs to work with other Australian groups. This Is Australia Alchemist.
Scout and Celiva are trying for the animals so why dont you help them.
I do educate about chemicals added to the animals food but I could do with a hand.
I know what its like to walk feeling your in a tunnel with an angry empty feeling in your gut because you want to stop cruelty.
Thats why I formed PALE
The animals need every to help Alchemist. Lets make it kinder FIRST.

Im thinking that Alchemists thinking makes a lot of sense..any lovers of even our own domestic pets realise how loving and intelligent they are..it is no accident that my goegeous cat and my 5 guinea pigs all talk to us as a family....

I recently invested $300.00 for an operation on my pet guinea pig bought for a mere $10.00 at the store...such was her contribution as a loving family memeber i couldnt even give a single thought to putting her down..we lost her anyway and we were devastsated..animal have emotional issues and rights, the same as humans.Steve Irwin was well aware of this and campaigned it religiuosly.

My point being, ALCH. is right...if we are to be concerned about the protection of the rights of animals on every level we must get down to the grass roots of it and stop buying and consuming this product 'harvested'(cruelly slaughtered in other words and yes IT IS cruel).

This is the only way exporters and producers will sit up and take notice..these groups that talk about inhumane practices etc have existed for many years...groups such as this one for example and as I see it it has done zip to make any impact on the issue at hand.

To be serious we have to put our action were our mouth is and stop buying meat..I know it goes against all the posts on here but its the only thing that will stop it.

The focus for fundraising could be to eduacate people on the practices and cruelty(like cigerrette ads do now on packets)used to provide meat for market and make people the ordinary consumer feel sick to their stomach at what theyre 'meat buying dollar' is supporting.

I think the commonsense element of this arguement will only come to light when either Scout, Wendy or Celivia finally supports it.

Its kind of looking that the girls are banding together here a bit and not letting any other realistic and useful suggestions thru ..that is a great pity because we are all fighting for the welfare of animals?.

Hello everybody.
Good debate happening.

Oz girl, late Steve Irwin had celebrity connection one person could dream of. He also was befriended with Live animal exporters like Murdoch, Packer and naturally befriended with John Howard.
Steve Irwin donated as much money on conserving Wildlife as the Government spent on destroying it.
Steve Irwin is a legend in his own right
As Elton John says in his Song
“Candle in the Wind”.
…… Your candle burnt out long before
Your legend ever did……………

Even so Steve Irwin was a famous celebrity all over the world he was only one person against everybody else.
Yes, he kept his enemies close and rightfully so...

If we want to make a change in this world we need to work together as a team and tackle the Government, churches and every politician right left and centre.

Yabby,
I am sure you know that the live exports is doing extremely well because of the number of politician who are actively involved in exporting live animals.
That`s conflict of interest and doing what is right for our Nation keeping the jobs here.
That`s why Senator Andrew Bartlett couldn`t stop the reopening of the Live Exports.
On the other hand Andrew Bartlett is mixing with the extreme Animal Welfare groups and is not seen as a very serious Politician.
Without jobs, no income, no self esteem, boredom arises and violence (be it domestic or otherwise) and the crime rate are on the rise.

Scout and Celivia

I have been working with native wildlife most of my life.
Last year I gave up my life in NSW, to help PALE in QLD. PALE is the only Group that has a workable plan and answers to help all animals as well as all Australians and Indigenous citizens alike.
It`s your forums girls but if you don`t mind me saying try and built a group under PALE and spread your wings from there.
We need to get a group going in favor of free range farmers.

1. OZGIRL

Celivia and I are not in competition - this is a joint effort. The topic of animal welfare is very broad. in fact I think I should've just called this 'Live export - good or bad' or something like that.

All the stats mean is that Celivia and I have proved that animal welfare is of concern to many, many people.

2. ALCHEMIST

While I enjoy your digs at religion, I do not enjoy dogma from any direction. I do not tell people what to eat. To order people not to eat meat is as unrealistic as it is unworkable. What we are trying to achieve is greater awareness of the treatment of animals raised for consumption, eliminate live export and create a more humane society. Simple stuff really ;-)

Special kudos to:

BENNY
FREERANGER
REX

and the indefatigable WENDY (I'll be joining PALE ASAP)

Cheers all.

Scout not meant as an insult.

Antje...yes I completely agree with your comments about Steve ..he was a legend and will never be forgotten, not in my lifetime anyway...he was loved the world over and by children ,adults and world leaders..and yes he did keep his enemies close and for good reason..
It has been suggested that when he befriended the likes of Packer etc he was turning his back on live animal exports, I didnt believe tha for a second..I trusted his motives and dedication to his cause implicitly.

Free range farming sounds like a wonderful idea and should be explored further.

But I reiterate everyone , and why its being glaringly ignored is beyond me, as to live export cruelty and all other forms of barbaric animal practices, withholding the consumer dollar will that support their businesses WILL WORK.

Does noone think that fundraising for the Advertising campaign to highlight the barbaric practices used to supply meat to the consumer is a good idea?Much like they do on the front of cigerette packs now?

Scout, Celivia, Wendy?

Ozgirl

One of the many brilliant suggestions by Celivia was to question Supermarkets as to the origin of all egg products: cake mix etc - freerange or not. Blackbanning shops is a good method, for example I only by meat from a butchers which specialises in freerange meat. I don't buy meat from supermarkets at all, not even the stuff that is marked freerange, 'cos I don't really trust big business, whereas my butcher I know and talk to. I know where he sources his meat.

I am trying to gather as many methods to support humane animal farming as much as possible.

I can see how a more humane approach will create more jobs (more small business, more local abbatoirs, specialised product (greater interest in purchasing freerange) and so on. We don't have to beat big business - just move on without 'em.

AntjeStruthmann

Welcome to the discussion - thank you for your endorsement of PALE. It is this kind of exchange that I was hoping for - by starting this discussion. Clearly there is a lot more I can do. I am working through the best way to proceed that works for me and is 'doable'.

:0)

Antje, lives exports is an industry, because it makes rational sense
to have it as an industry, based on rational criteria.

Firstly its not farmers jobs to subsidise meatworkers, who don't
even exist, thats why the 457 imports. Based on your rational,
ban foreign cars, 75% which are made overseas, to create jobs here.
Based on those odds, 75% of you drive foreign made cars :)

Today we live in a market economy, thats the reality. Govt's don't
build meatworks. Hell, in WA it seems they won't even pick up the
phone to wellcome anyone who does, judging by the T&R saga.
If Govts started building meatworks, Fletcher would cut their
balls off lol.

The judgement whether live exports are cruel or not is not going
to be made by a bunch of housewives watching historical footage
of some years ago, but by the latest information of the trade today,
as it stands, by qualified people such as vets and others.

There are lots of animal welfare issues that need addressing in
Australia, I agree with you. I simply don't believe that live
exports is one of them, there are far bigger ones. They just
never got featured on 60 minutes some years ago, thats all

Yabby
Stop your lies. Nothing is old footage and you know it. Or perhaps you dont. I repeat, when you called me I was surprised to find you knew little and had small understanding of the live animal Export industry.
As they have said in QLD for a very long time Yabby
"Dont you worry about that"
We have plenty of footage being gathered on a daily basis from all over. There are just so many people gathering footage that we have chosen to get on with the task at hand of finding investors to co join farmers.
You have never said one thing about animal welfare or how to help with it.
What about Amandas piggery? Remember thats just One! plant.
What about battery hens? Ha. Apart from agreeing its cruel[if you do] Do you have anything to say? Any ideas on how to fix it.

Ok Yabby you bred yabbies clearly would work have worked hard to build up your export bussiness because if nothing else your like a dog with a bone, then sold it.
Your bored now that much is clear. You like a child after attention.
One way to get our attention is to help in "some way"
Do you have any intention of doing anything at all to help celiva and Scout improve animal welfare? "Why Not try This"? Just for fun. Why dont you go in and give the Church leaders a tickle for the girls.
I know you can do that very well because I actually read some of your posts on your own forum.
Some of them were actually quite amusing. Why not put your skills to helping the animals. Leave live export out of it if you like. As you say there are many other issues that deserve attention.
Yabby do you intend to help any of the other animals? For Scout and Celiva? or is this just a sauce of amuzment to you while the animals suffer.
A simply yes or no would be appreciated by all I am sure

Wendy, its all old footage and you know it. But of course
that interferes with your little obsession, so like a true
believer, you ignore it.

The very reason that the live export industry is being so
careful at the moment, is that around every corner there
is yet another nut with a camera and they are aware of that.

Yet in our very own country, stuff is happening with no
cameras, appr. 100'000 sheep a week die and nobody gives
a stuff.

Rest assured that I am doing my bit for animals, but I am
not on OLO to wear my heart of my sleeve or to brag about
what I do, but to discuss rational issues on a rational basis,
they stand or fall on my ability to reason.

I certainly would not want church leaders getting involved
in the politics of animal welfare. The role of the church
is to preach to its flock, not politics. Unless of course
you have no problem with them getting into the politics
of your uterus. Politics is politics after all.

Yes I have opinions about piggeries and battery hens,
but I tend to focus on one issue at a time. Right now
its your obsession with the live trade, which is unrealistic,
as time will show.

Well a great effort by everyone...Wendy has vast experience on this topic and Celivia is very willing to learn all she can..Scout is also very coherent and provides plenty of food for thought..

Yabby has given the girls a run for their money and put forth some valid arguements and he never did tell me how to farm said yabbies...?

Graham Y... has made some very insightful comments and cleared the air from the christian side of the arguement and me ..well i dont pretend to know much about live exports at all..the one thing that has 'spoken' to me is the loss of Steve Irwin and I am going to set up my wildlife shelter...because I believe actions speak loudest,.

The lack of reference to Steve on these 2 threads has been rather puzzling to me as he was the foremost expert on all topics in relation to animal welfare, so I find that a glaring ommission..

There is a thread started by myself in relation to the incidence of abuse by the Government of Indigenous peoples and removal of their human rights.
A disgrace and a shameful situation we should not tolerate..

Yabby, yep, time can only tell, but it has to be given a chance, doesn’t it, to find that out. You are not in the possession of a crystal ball. You are so passionate about live exports that it is a shame you cannot transfer that passion over to another animal issues, since this arguing against it is getting nowhere. You could be an asset, Yabby, if you let yourself.

Alchemist, I am not reluctant to acknowledge the depth of feelings animals have. If I thought that animals didn’t have feelings I wouldn’t be interested in trying to improve things for animals. I am so aware of that, that in fact, I don’t want to support useless actions of making people feel guilty about eating meat. We cannot tell them what to do. We can only inform them with FACTS about meat and people then can make up their own minds.
My main point is, while I agree with you that consuming animals is not in their best interest, from looking at the history of extreme animal activists groups, I have seen thatvery littlle has improved for animals; the only things that animal activists are doing is to make people feel guilty about eating meat and to try to bully them by insisting that everyone must become vegetarians.

OZGIRL,
There are several discussion threads going on about Steve Irwin. I’m sure everyone on here liked what he did for the wildlife animals.
I, (and others) do not have much time and certainly not the money available that Steve had, but I try to do what I can fit in.

I am at all not against some groups informing people how bad meat is as long as it is true. Unlike smoking, it is debatable whether free range, chemical free/hormone free meat is bad for people’s health.

Wendy, I don't mind becoming a member of PALE. I'll contact you later this week.

"it is a shame you cannot transfer that passion over to another animal issues, since this arguing against it is getting nowhere. You could be an asset, Yabby, if you let yourself."

Celivia, you are jumping to huge conclusions without substance there.

I certainly am passionate about a number of animal welfare issues,
also do something about them, just in a different way then you do.

I've also done well in life because I've learned to be a good judge
of character and am very careful before putting my name to any cause.
In this case I made a judgement call and decided to keep a looong way
away lol, for my own very very good reasons. You make your
decisions as you wish, we are each responsible for our own actions
and pay the price accordingly. I've long ago learned one thing,
sadly people need pain to learn. Enough said.

Ozgirl, I've tried to stay on topic, you could start a thread about
questions regards yabbies, I will answer them for you.

Maximus, thanks for the comment. Yup, lots of knickers in a twist
on this thread mate :)

THIS IS WHAT SENATOR FEILDING APPROVES OF AS A CHRISTIAN MEMBER OF CHURCH AND POLITICIAN
http://www.farmonline.com.au/news_daily.asp?ag_id=37167
I recall readinbg Steve Fielding of Family First said Rodoes were '"entertainment" for "people"
please write him and the AVA asking why they dont recommend banning these cruel activities?

Click below to see how government FORCE live exports!
http://www.farmonline.com.au/news_daily.asp?ag_id=37144
training was not provided by this Government. This is WHY the HKM project is vital.
Below peta launches another attack on live exports.
http://www.farmonline.com.au/news_daily.asp?ag_id=37152
While animal liberation extreme groups PETA have differences with main stream groups regarding telling others what to eat we fully support any stand against live exports.

Re pigs held in horror> Animal liberation have our support.
http://www.farmonline.com.au/news_daily.asp?ag_id=37115
regarding raids on piggerys and other intensive farms Animal liberation have no choice OTHER than just enter.
Roberson is a cruel man determined like others to hide the truth from the public. As they do not give a dam about animal welfare its clear they dont care about disease and peoples welfare either. We all know intensive farming spreads and breds disease. Its not rocket science.
We also agree with the Government that you cant tell others not to eat meat. The Answer IS FREE RANGE AND SLAUGHTER IN OUR OWN COUNTRY>
Even if? A sheep was bring a thousand dollars a head! Its No excuse for Animal Cruelty that Live Exports brings. Its time for the farmers to stop hiding behind the Vaile As well.
THE LACK OF ANIMAL WELFARE IN AUSTRALIA IS OUR NATIONS GREATEST SHAME
CHURCH LEADERS WHERE THE BLOODY HELL ARE YOU?
We ask everybody reading this forum to join pale help us with the only alternative to live exports.
Without members the animals will continue to suffer.
We are against telling people not to eat meat!
Because it backfires with the public and turns othwise helful people away from animal welfare. This may be ok with those groups whpo just pull at heart strings to raise money to keep themselves in paid jobs. However We are serious about improving life for animals.

Am time poor today, but have just been on the "abuse of animals" thread and 'pigfarmer' has left this valuable link:

http://www.freerangepork.com.au/

Everyone who is genuinely concerned about animal welfare will no doubt check it out.

Regards

Thanks for that Scout. We started the new site to help support all free range farmers. Please suggest any farmers you know or retailers that support free range farming.

Pigfarmer

I will notify you of my local butcher on your website - for all I know he may already subscribe. But that doesn't matter, we are creating something much bigger than we are as individuals and it won't be long before the pollies have no choice but to take notice - they want to keep their jobs, they will create policies with animal welfare in mind.

The websites you and Freeranger have provided are among my goals when I started this discussion. Like most people I am time poor, but want to make a difference. And now I know I can - the internet can be fraught with lies and misinformation - but anyone who is discerning can cut through and find the gems like your websites.

Thank you.

Hello Yabby
Thanks for your reply.
Yes Live Exports are an industry but have the jobs it created outweighed the jobs lost?
Tax payers subsidize from A-Z ->farmer to Live Exports everything.
E.g. the Gov sells 1 Doz. eggs to Asia for a few cents. We have to make up for the subsidies and pay top dollars.
The reality is the Gov gives a monkey about their Citizens and nor do the Churches.
Farmers endure hard times especially now and try to be economical viable with the ongoing draught, but ….

Let’s get to the real reason for Live Exports shall we.
Some time ago a/farmers mixed other meat into the order of meat which was destined for oversea markets.
Naturally these countries in question did tests and the meat was returned to Australia and sold as Export quality.

Australian farmers lost the credibility of being honest and naturally overseas buyers insist now on seeing the product live.
Re cruelty to live exports.
Well if you want to acknowledge it or not. It is cruel. Animals suffer from travel sickness, stress, which in return affects their immune system and ultimately their over all well being.
The animal looses weight and suffers from diarrhoea and other sicknesses and diseases associated with the trauma being transported.
I know that as a fact having worked with animals most of my life.
The footage you complain about is not old, unless you want to discredit the late Richard Carlton’s last doc about Live Exports? There has been others since.
The pictures are as up to date as they were last year, because the cruel treatment of these animals is happening this very minute.
All that changes in all the docs on a daily basis are the figures for Live Exports that naturally go up and the lost of Australian jobs that go with it.
You work it out.
And yes it’s the women who have the power to make a difference where the next meat on their table comes from ->free range source or if it’s a cruel product of intensive farming.

AntjeStruthmann

Thank you

We have been pointing out the same facts all along to Yabby, but its become like hitting a brick wall.

I can only conclude that Yabby has a vested interest in live export and needs to justify it.

People will say anything to justify a less than ethical position, forcing others to run around in circles just to prove a truism, which is:

Live Export is harmful to animal well being.

We have demonstrated that there are alternatives.

Farmers have to demonstrate that their product is untainted.

With traders like Pigfarmer and Freeranger, we can re-estbalish carcass trade.

Scout
Its the First In this Country Of Its Kind. Pigfarmer has done good. Real Good. Although I await until pig Farmer formally comes out.
As the Free range Farmers one by one add onto this wonderful site I am sure the Australian People will use it.
Fantasic Job pig Farmer!

Today of course we hear even more disturbing news of cruelty again , [or should I say Still at intensive pork farms.
This work was carried out by Animal Liberation.

Roberson CLAIMS these people have not acted in the interests of animal welfare by entering the premises!

We all! know whos welfare they are so concerned about.

Its their OWN trying to conceal the awful conditions the Australian Governments allow these low lifes to operate.

Remember we have different State Government laws throughout Australia.
So the labour Government are JUST as reasonsibly as the Howard Government.
We need some proper Animal Welfare acts in this country.

All animals have a right to walk around free.
What type of country are we.
We must All stand up to the Howard andlabour Govrnment and say Enogh is Enough. STOP eating Feed Lot Intensive Meat. Stop Buying meat or eggs that are not free range. Its up to all of us to make a stand and dO something about this.
Pigfarmer has made a start. Lets learn from people like pig farmer and free ranger and the other gOOD free range farmer out there. If you are a free range farmer we would love to hear from you and want to buy your products. Something tell me they are going to be very much in demand.

Antje, to answer your questions, yes far more jobs are created then
lost, especially in regional areas. A sheep worth 78$ rather
then 40$, brings in far more money. Crunch the rest of your numbers
yourself.

The Govt does not subsidise the industry. MLA levies, which the
Govt provides a 1 for 1 funding for, as with many industries,
have perhaps 2% spent on live exports, which are also levied. Govts
screw that back in taxes and charges, many times over. Farmers
pay the levies, its up to them how its spent.

Blaming one kangaroo meat scandal on the reason for the live trade
is frankly ridiculous. The Middle East buys millions of sheep from
many countries, including now China, which has more sheep then
Australia. Hajj lambs for instance, are part of their religious
practise. Others for political reasons, to provide employment
there. Others for consumer preference. Anyone who understands
marketing knows, that telling your customers what they should and
should not be doing, trying to force it by regulation, leads to
ultimate disaster.

Antje are you aware of the changes to the live trade recently, with
the new system, the scrapping of old boats, space regulation, welfare
regulation etc? It seems not. The Carleton videos are years old
now and out of date to what is happening out there.

Cameron Morse showed, that with new boats, improved procedures etc,
sheep actually gained weight! Yup they are floating feedlots. Feedlots are
not banned in Australia. In fact the whole cattle industry depends on them, 1 million cattle in feedlots in Australia.
If you agree with them or not is another question.

How do you know that sheep suffer from travel sickness? What is
your experience with sheep? Don't you think that vets know more
then you do?

If the Middles East still has problems handling animals, somebody
needs to teach them to improve things. Aus is the only country doing
that, certainly none of you animal lib groups are.

Scout, one of the most interesting things about the live export
debate that has really hit me, is the gap between city and
country here. Not one of the people who I have debated this topic
with, from Peta activists, to now the OLO girls club, know much
about sheep, their farming, management or behaviour. Relating
your personal emotional engulfment or that for your pet poodle,
has little to do with sheep. On that one, you girls are as bad
as Peta, real countrywomen are far more rational about the topic.

You have demonstrated no alternatives at all. Just some fruitloop
schemes which don't work in a market economy.

No industry has its animals as free outdoors as the sheep industry.
Its not the pig or chicken industry. Yet 80% of consumers buy
battery eggs. If you target those consumers, hey fine, consumers
should choose, I agree.

My problem with you lot remains the same. In the life of a sheep,
which is footloose and free for virtually all its life, compared
to what you guys normally eat, a couple of weeks on a boat is
neither here nor there. If its gaining weight and the vets conclude
that its not suffering, what qualifications do you have, to claim
it is suffering?

I am surrounded by families who suffer real problems of surviving
the cost price squeeze and it matters to them if they are paid
20$ or 60$ for their wethers. I am aware of how much that matters,
clearly you arn't.

Until you girls can separate emotion from reason and debate these
issues on a rational basis, using accurate and up to date data,
why should anyone take notice of you? The political world certainly
won't

Yabby - you are making a few of assumptions. Pigfarmer, also sheep grazier, Professional Woolclasser AND female! I know a thing or two about sheep - the gap isn't quite as wide as you think. Put me down as a 'countrywoman' against live exports. 'Footloose' life for sheep?? Who are you trying to kid.

Wendy, now we may be getting somewhere...'stop eating feedlot intensive meat'..that is the answer voting with our consumer dollar...at least that way we get them to listen ..and only withdrawal of money will have the effect you want ...ie :action.

MLA are funded 50 50 by the Public purse and the industry
96% of the public want live exports banned.

So is livecorp. All 4 to 6 staff.

Amazing so few people can be responsible for millions of animals

A front to keep it distance from the Government

Bit embarrassing a Directer of liveCorp charged three times for animal cruelty in regards to live exports before! being a livecorp Director.

Live exporters are corporate rats that betray the farmers

Stop using! the Australian farmers as an excuse.

It was more than just one ship load of Roo meat too.
The truth is the Australian farmers, [whats left of them] are just that. Farmers.
Farmers never asked the relevant questions and still dont.


The middle man and the low life corp guys who have pushed the little Australian farmer pretty much out of the industry.

Of Course! The farmers want to sell their stock. They have families to feed like anyone.

Its $20.00 not $38.00.

Surely Australia is not so desperate and such a poor country it must make an extra twenty bucks out of such a cruel disgusting trade.

You may not Like Rodger Fletcher but he is a example of how to make a lot of money doing it here.

Do you know how Packer got his supply?
Got friendly with the farmers and provided plenty of country jobs in abattoirs
THEN closed them leaving people without work mortgages and diverted to live exports for the trade dollar.

Feed lots are disgustingly cruel and you speak of floating feed lots like they were ok. Feed lots Will! be banned too.

Nobody is blaming the Farmers. Its the Corperate lot who buy votes and live off famers misery. After having said that there are many farmers that insist on their animal only going for domestic use.
A Few Good men
Your certainly not one of them.
According to you Australia is too stupid to grow and slaughter its own meat.
What utter crap.

Its not Rocket Science

I agree with Yabby and I agree with pig farmer, but I disagree with you both, as your all up the wrong tree. Get rid of feral animals and if you have to be barbaric, harvest natives. Much better for the environment and better for your health and the animals.

Some time you all have to see that your continuing use of past its use by date approaches and methods, is not succeeding. It's increasingly uneconomic, destroying the environment, and the health of this country.

I don't understand the double standards people have. If your going to eat meat, then eat the best and most environmental prudent meat. But all your talking about is enslaved economic animals, not animal welfare. What about the welfare of our native animals, or is it only feral animals and beliefs that count.

Don't any of you have a soul beyond greed, animal welfare means animals, not barbaric human economics.

Change the thread to, “Human economic outcomes, via the most comfortable, lowest cost barbarity, towards animals and the environment”. At least it would be an honest thread then and you wouldn't have to hear from lone souls like me who care about all animals, not just the economic ones.

Ozgirl.
Yes But We must run some TV adds to educate the public regarding that and Church leaders.
Just like you see the TV adds promting pork etc. Oh buy the way tax payers money pays for that. Guess Amandas piggery was is a embarassment.
There are plenty of people overseas interested in Free Range Farms in Australia and slaughtering here.
I will post you just a few enquires over the last few days Ozgirl , just taking the names off.

1 i would like to know
how i can your partener in my country egypt
ok
i wait your answer
b/r
Dear Sir/Madam

2 Thanks For Your Email

We Waiting From You Best FOB Melbourne inclues

The Cartons And Printer Under Our Company

Name And All Document Under Our Company

Name. AQIS Inspect The Meat in Melbourne

If Your Prices Good Trust Me I Get To You LOTS

Of Customer in Middle East/Asia

My Agent in Middle East And Asia

3 Hi Wendy,

Would be interested but need more detail and discussion.

This requires very careful planning.

Subject: Re: Jobs lost in Australia due to livestock export

Hi Wendy,

4

Where are the farms and how many heads and types of cattle are they?

5 Hi Wendy,

Visited your Web site. Would like to share some thought about job lost in
Australia due to livestock export.

6 Subject - WANTED : Egg
______________________________________________________________

Dear Sir,

Please advise if you still supply fresh egg?

Thank you.
Malaysia
______________________________________________________________

( For Halal Global Australian All Kind Meats)

______________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________
BUY Inquiry for MEMBER - Halal Global Australian All Kind Meats
______________________________________________________________
Subject - WANTED : Organic Irish Food and Beverages
______________________________________________________________

I am looking for Irish suppliers of organic foods and beverages that include meat & grass feed too (beef, pork, lamb v processed sausage, bacon, filets etc...) Also potatoes and Milk products (yogurt, milk, butter etc..) Basically food that is known to be Irish but organic.

Thanks.

Regards

__________________________________________________________
So as you can see Ozgirl the overeas companies like the idea of free range and slaughtering here.

.

Pigfarmer, if your sheep are not footloose, its not hard to change
your management. Perhaps its just us West Australians
way ahead of you Eastern Staters yet again :)

Alchemist, your debate goes in a different direction again, its
a long and philosophical one. Perhaps you could start a thread on
it. Methinks its way over the head of most of those contributing
here.

Wendy, farmers pay about 50 million in levies. They vote on how its
spent, including the govt 1 for 1, mostly on scientific research
and marketing. The live budget is just a few small million, mostly
on helping improve animal welfare practises in the Middle East.
If it gets your knickers out of a twist, we'll just change the accounting procedure. All grower money to help Middle East animals,
scientific research gets a larger Govt contribution. Simple really!

Note that its farmer money helping to change practises in the Middle
East, not so called animal welfare groups, including yours.

If you have all these amazing markets which you claim, they are free to buy direct off farmers, through their Coop, Wammco. All profit
goes to farmer owners, no middle men. Fletcher makes his money
by paying as little as possible, not through record prices.

You clearly have no idea of WA livestock prices Wendy. In a farm
budget the difference is not 20$ either, its $40'000, or the difference between feeding the family or not.

If you are intent on banning feedlots, ok so go ahead in your own
State of Queensland, where most of them are. Leave us West Australians out of it! While feedlots are legal, floating feedlots
are legal too. Vets right now recommend feedlots, to help animals
get through drought conditions. Saves burning off energy, walking around looking for nothing. As with anything, there are good and
bad feedlots, life is not black and white.

One way to get around all you city slickers, the many fees and charges that you impose etc, the unreasonable unions, the greedy
Fletchers et al, is to simply sail the whole lot off shore.
Simple really!

All Government Money To Go To The Middle East. Wendy is right. The marketing is live export driven mate we all know that
Hey everybody note that large amounts of money from the Government go to middle east. Where do you think the Government money coms from in the first place chum.
Its not your money. Its the tax payers money.@
Your real Pd off because this woman is right onto you lot. Good For her. Shes got my vote. Your noted as on public record to saying wE will just change the accounting. Yeh well we are used to that. I say we because after sitting back mainly just watching I have decided to help.When the public know as Wendy said each and everyone of them are forking out over six hundred a year to the middle east I think you might see a more balanced arrangment through MLA and others.
Its all going to stop. End Of Story. At least half of the public purse will go to marketing for partners for Australian Farmers are building abattoirs. You say the animals are on board two weeks./ Lier. They are onboard for three months going blind from them pissing on each other and the acid .
Lung diseases .
You are the biggest fool I have come across and I have met some.
Time is running out for the cruel livexports
Sorry Scout Celivia Antje ozgirl Robert and everybody else but what a jerk. He goes on here and just posts utter crap and lies in the hope he can confuse everybody.
Fletcher is a good operator who puts bread and butter on the table for many familys.
As Wendy and the others said you make out we cant build some abattoirs and send meat in boxes. Bull its not something thats real hard to do.
Thats a good point Antje. Neither of these two lunatics will use their real names. Doesnt give much credit to your comments does it.
Look at me I dont mind saying who I am. Doesnt matter really its your funeral.

My God Benny, 600 thou of your money (plus 20 million others)
for animal welfare in the Middle East! Wow, you think thats
bad. Here we have an alleged animal welfare group, against
spending money on animal welfare. This group never ceases
to amaze me :)

Ok lets put it to a farmer vote, they pay the levies.
4 million times 30$ conservatively speaking thats 120 million
to gain, 600 thou to pay to shut up these nutters, thats
umm 15c a head. Rofl....

Most of the public purse goes on marketing the 88% of sheep
and 92% of cattle that are slaughtered locally already, if you did not know.

Amazing that Cameron Morse boarded a live sheep ship, sailed to
Jordan, where they unloaded the cargo, all in two weeks.
Whew, ping goes the 3 month story, clean out the window!

Last time I remember those clever city slickers running a meatworks
in WA, it was Rob's Jetty, a backward facility, union dominated,
run by the meat commission. Such eminent crooks like Laurie Connel
were on its board. I remember the early 90s, when farmers gave
away truckloads of sheep for free or had to shoot them, such
were the talents of that mob in marketing WA farmers sheep.

Clearly its beyond you lot to come up with a method of putting
sheep in a box, without sending farmers bankrupt in the process.
The evidence is clear for all to see. Right now the sheep price
in WA is no more then fertiliser value, including what your
beloved Fletcher pays.

Clearly its time for more militant farmer action here!

Yabby,“Methinks its way over the head of most of those contributing here.”

Your right, I decided to contribute to these animal welfare threads, to see the depth of evolved understanding around. Sadly it appears there's none, just more of the same destruction and abuse.

No mention of the extinction of our natives, no mention or care for the habitat natives need to survive. Wendy has hijacked both threads with her god fearing zealousness, but is completely blind to the effects her ideas will have on the planet.

Humane killing, compared to animal killing.

Humans kill for the sake of killing and enslave animals for slaughter. Humans destroy the environment of animals for the sake or breeding placid easily killed animals. Humans kill humans with improving lethal sophistication. Humans in their killing sprees kill everything in site with their massive weaponry. Typical humanity under the auspices of god

Animals who kill for food, ethically select the sick, old and infirm young, they don't enslave or torture (growth hormones, over crowding, no freedom), nor kill for sport or gluttony.

I doubt another thread would change anything but what we see here, either that or no replies what so ever as there appears none who have a clue about the reality of our world. God just blinds them to anything but psychopathic barbarity. Their so stupid, they don't realise there will probably be no market in the ME, considering what gods current messenger G. W. Bush said on the anniversary of 9/11. He said, this is not about terrorism, its about the most defining ideological conflict of the 21st century, and were going to win it no matter what.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, no qualms there, for gods followers, it's kill kill kill.

Headlines promoting Yahweh. 'Don't miss the next exciting barbaric acts against the animal inhabitants of the planet, coming soon to a place near you, delivered by the grace of god.

Benny

Thanks for your support. Interesting that when a someone like Yabby disagrees with us our sex is somehow relevant. Sounds like desperation to me. Ethical treatment of animals is an issue that concerns everyone, regardless of gender.

Anyway I am about to repeat a post I made on Celivia's thread because I think it is relevant and am finding time running away again.

Here goes:

ONE STEP AT A TIME

That is the very best we can do.

No blame.

No recrimination.

Just simply travelling towards our goals.

1. Set up new abbatoirs - within strict guidelines for humane slaughter (sorry alchemist). Lobby your local MP.

2. Phase out live export - this can be achieved working with other countries - not against them - as Wendy is doing with Halal Meats. Again lobby your local MP.

3. Increase demand for freerange produce - tell your local supermarket what YOU want.

4. Eat more vegies - if you are unable to purchase the kind of meat you want, eat more vegetarian meals, better for you anyway. Everytime you are at the check out, leave a note for the manager that you aren't purchasing any meat until you are sure it is freerange and humanely produced.

5. When you go to church (if ANY Christians are still reading this thread) tell your minister about your concern for ALL god's creatures. Tell him what you are doing towards ethical treatment of animals.

6. Keep posting on the animal welfare threads.

7. Get Up is currently conducting a survey to determine issues to hit the pollies with next Fed election. Fill out the survey - its free and will make a difference

http://www.getup.org.au/

8. Tell your friends, family - not only that you love them but you love animals too (in the non-biblical sense).

Thank you

;-)

AntjeStruthmann

Thank you but this thread is really long and padded with some personal nonsense and it takes a long time to get through it. Have you considered bringing it somewhere like:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/animal_equal_consideration/

to keep it a serious discussion.

Wendy thank you also.

I have taken the liberty of pasting the bulk of your post and the links from Scouts at the above URL in the hope that the fat can be trimmed from the discussion so to speak.

Cheers

Michael.

Thanks mjpb (Michael)

This discussion is typical of OLO - lots of personal rubbish. But I do believe I have unearthed a few gems here and there - your post being the most recent one.

To join into your discussion group it is necessary to join Yahoo - which I'm in the process of doing now!

Cheers

mjpb Easy to see you haven't read much on this thread, Scout started this no one else. You don't disguise your religious and meat industry interests very well. You must be very scared of vegetarians to have to ban any from your discussion, is that because you can't come up with anything logical for a defence of your life of continuing barbarity.

Scout your first post started with this, “As a culture we are gradually increasing our responsibility towards the environment.”

How does that equate to the growing destruction your advocating with your approach, rather bizarre logic isn't it, or has the blindness reached and covered the mind

I understand how unevolved humans are. Just wondered if there was any form of conscience in anyone, sadly there's not. Just more barbaric preparations for destruction, without thought for the inevitable outcome and consequences for our planet and all that live on it. Don't forget the many species becoming extinct, as more and more land is gobbled up and destroyed to house more monotheists and condemned animals.

But your animal welfare, only relates to feeding your faces and the amount of money, expansion and control you can get, doesn't it.

Its a pity you all believe humane killing is something good, when the reality is the total opposite. It just proves there's no hope for change, just more radicalism by gods followers to ensure they are in control of all slaughter on the planet. No matter what the cost to anyone or anything else. In the end, your all just contributing to the collapse of our biological planet as fast as you can, in an effort to rapidly increase gods destructive works.

So I'll leave you now and go back to my animals and wildlife, at least they understand and display caring kindness, unlike the humane of the world.

Alchemist.
Goodbye.
I toally understand how you feel.But Gods not going to change it for the animals. That much is clear. We will try to stop live exports and increase the use of vegeatbles in peoples diets.
You are not alone in your thoughts but I cant just spend all my time with my animals. I must try at least to ease what suffering We can for the others. I dont know how you became a priest because there is not much in the church for animals. Most couldnt care less as you know.

The Alchemist

You are a vegetarian! We have something else not in common. My only interest in the meat industry is nutrition and humane treatment of animals.

No and I'm trying to cut down on barbarity. I'm concerned that the presence of vegetarians in here however might make my above comment a little too candid for your feelings. Obviously it expressed my opinion but I would have been less vivid if I knew the full extent of the audience.

"unlike the humane of the world" Freudian slip of the finger?

2006-09-10 Kate Porter Australia

2006-09-06 Rebecca Bergamin Australia I will not wear wool or support the Australian factory farming & live export industries in ANY way. It is barbaric.

2006-09-04 Mary P Brighton Australia We seem to forget animals have emotions and feelings similar to humans. The unspeakable cruelty suffered by these unfortunate animals that have nobody to look out for their rights is just not acceptable.

2006-09-04 Sarah Watson Australia STOP the export of live animals

2006-09-02 Helen McMullan Australia Australia has enough multi-cutural people who can treat the animals in a humane way and fulfil religious requirements/customs without sending live animals overseas. Please stop the crule live export of Australian livestock.

2006-09-01 Dianne Arton Australia There is no moral basis for live export. We can humanely slaughter animals on our own shore in line with other countries expectations eg. halal. So why do we continue to claim to care more about foeta humans than all living beings

2006-09-01 DR Nik Taylor Australia All animals have an intrinsic right to be treated with respect. The barbarism of live exports contravenes this right and many others and must be stopped.

Furthermore state sanctioned acts of violence against animals may well encourage human acts of aggression and violence and thus need to be stopped on BOTH human and animal welfare levels.

2006-08-31 Rex Gate Australia (enter comments here)

2006-08-29 callum sloan australia i absolutely hate it

2006-08-29 Frank L Hoffman USA All animals deserve the legal rights not to be used, abused, and exploited by humans. They have feelings and suffer pain just as we do. See: www.all-creatures.org

2006-08-27 Cilia van Zal Australia This torture of animals has to stop asap. There is no excuse for the cruelty during transports and slaughter. No excuse at all because there are alternatives.

2006-08-25 Luke Rowland Australia

2006-08-22 Sally Australia Put your self in that situation. Animals have feelings too

2006-08-20 Glen Dfens Orstralia How can our highly evolved species accept this ignorant unneccesary torture Its the 21st century boys and girls No bottom line can justify such large scale animal mistreatment

Like the saying goes, "never let the facts interfere with a good
story". How true that is on this thread lol.

One of the great things about science, is it helps us to understand
human behaviour a little bit better. On the news tonight, mri
brain scans of anorexics, how they virtually shut down parts of their
brains to deny the reality of their condition. Or a great story
on SBS about identical twins and how much of human behaviour is
in fact genetic, forget all the freewill and rational stuff.
Religiosity was shown to have huge genetic input for instance,
as most other human behaviour.

This debate has been a classic in highlighting these very points!
Forget the rational and up to date evidence, the focus has been
on ad hominems, emotional obsessions, emotional engulfment and
much more, that is why its been quite amusing really.

Its ok, we understand that the obsessed just can't help themselves
and let rational data interfere with a good story! So its
not your fault girls, as the evidence shows :)

Wendy ,

Thank you for your reply and I think at last Im starting to see a glimmer of light here...

Scout talks of a more systematic approach more a one on one thing whereby consumers pester shops/retailers about free range and question how and where our produce(meat and poultry,fish) is being produced..this would be slow but at a realistic level just may be enough to change the status quo at some point in the future.
I see that the boycott meat idea was not a goer because it would be too ambitous and not based in reality that enough pple would even contemplate rejecting meat.

For some reason its taken me awhile to catch on...I glaze over at too much rhetoric, but better late than never.

I still think theres room for shock tactic type labels attatched to meat packets and produce depicting graphic images of inhumane slaughtering practice would be entirely effective.

Yabby..I like you matey and you put forth some good arguements for us mere females...yes i do love yabbies and i will let you enlighten me on that subject.

2006-08-19 Lauren United Kingdom For the above reasons I choose to sign the petition against this cruelty. From my point of view local slaughter houses would be at least something, though the locals who complain about such an idea, usually eat Sunday roast!

2006-08-19 Karan Prakash Canada despicable, the people who pepretrate this will get theirs.




2006-08-14 Linda Larsen USA If we are to kill animals for food, let us all do this act with as much kindness to animals as possible. That is the bottom line, period

2006-08-13 Kym Cherie Lawrence Australia Australia the Lucky Country! lets keep it lucky! lets treat our livestock with the respect they deserve and stop the export of live export stop the cruelty to farmed livestock and chickens.

2006-08-13 Bronwyn McIntyre Australia Is money really that important that these people abandon all morals and wield human power in the most inhumane way? No animal deserves the cruel pain and suffering that these animals are subjected to. I am ashamed to be a member of the human species in the company of such people.

2006-08-12 Madhu Ahuja India Animals should not be treated badly because they are living beings just like us.

2006-08-11 beth ferguson united staes I believe that No animal should have to suffer for the sake, and greediness of humans This cruelty must stop

2006-08-02 Melissa Rutt Australia There is no need to put our livestock through so much trauma. Say NO to live export.

2006-08-02 nicole smith australia act now for the suffering of these poor animals. and help be there voice


2006-07-24 taylor Australia I think that it is really wrong to do that to animals they should be treated just as well as humans.

2006-07-22 Cassie Parker Australia I have seen first hand the conditions these animals face during transportation and it is completely unacceptable. These animals go through a heartbreaking amount of pain and suffering during transport, only to be slaughtered upon reaching their destination.

2006-07-13 Melissa Lastelle Australia this is extreme cruelty

2006-07-13 Misty Kelly Australia There is simply no need for this cruelt

2006-07-10 Sarah Australia Stop exporting our stock n leave it for us. our own people and country before any other.
2006-07-06 Claire Powlesland Australia Live exports need to be stopped immediately.

2006-07-03 Hannah slaski USA I think it is horrible they are letting people transport live animals in planes and boats and stuff. but mostly planes because, they are transported in bad, dirty, sick places. and many animals every year die or are killed

2006-07-02 Charmaine Cayuex Western Australia Disgusting , utterly appalling. The lack of consideration to animal welfare makes me feel ashamed to be human.

2006-07-01 Sue Australia Live exporting of animals is a disgusting example of cruelty to animals

2006-07-01 Tomika Steele Australia The exporting of live animals is vile, inhumane and MUST STOP

2006-06-26 Roz Bergman Australia Ban live exports - cruel and unnecessary. Time people thought about animals more.

2006-06-25 HASANI MANAGEMENT SDN.BHD MALAYSIA


2006-06-21 Brogan Lewis Australia Stop this ammediately, what are you trying to prove?

2006-06-21 Belinda Hein Australia I am fed up with the inhumane and disrespecful way in which we allow middle eastern and asian countries to treat animals - we must stop live export of animals to these countries.

2006-06-19 Amanda Shepherd Australia STOP CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

2006-06-18 Martha French U.S. This problem needs to be taken care of in Australia,But the United States can help by not accepting any live animals for slaughter.

2006-06-16 wouter greevink netherlands look at peta2.com please theyre against animal abuse the people who do that are sick really sick

2006-06-14 hany egypt hello and want to be sign on

2006-06-14 Adriana Challoner Australia It is terrible that things such as this can still be happening. Animals rely on us to be treated well - they are innocent and deserve respect - no living creature should be treated cruely. Please stop these awful acts from continuing.

2006-06-13 robyn chapman australia There is absolutely no reason to continue this dreadful activity. Australia is meant to be an educated and civilised country and should be judged on how its animals are treated. Please STOP live animal exports

Ozgirl, why thank you :) Feel free to email me on bonobo@westnet.com.au and I will answer any of your questions.

Wendy, millions of people used to think that the world was
flat, based on flawed information. That does not mean that
they were correct however!

If you are promoting flawed and out of date information on
the internet, thats your problem. History is what used to
be, not what is today. Get over it lol.

You are right ozgirl - if we all just started the same exercise as scout and went into different shops each week and enquired about free range, it would not take long to get the idea thru to retailers. I see it from the other side - I am selling free range and get told "Ive never been asked for it" so many times. My target is butchers, so I mail brochures, call in and ask for free range (whenever I am out of town, especially visiting in the city) There is another side however, and it is a part of the reason some butchers are reluctant to start selling free range - continuity of supply. There just arent enough free range farmers around. The ones that do exist are small family farms (usually) Many do not have the marketing skills to push their product or the capital needed to advertise it. They are really on their own and I know from experience that some produce from some great farms ends up mainstream and no one knows. Yes, thats how we would like it to be in the future, all meat produced free range, but my point is the farmers that are trying need help. If they are shown publicly to be successful, then other farmers will follow. I know Wendy is working on this idea too. I have started www.freerangepork.com.au to help. My butcher shop enquiries come from the net, so they are out there looking.

While Im here, just briefly, my vision for pig farming is, get rid of these 10,000 sow farms run by the likes of Nipon Meats, Amanda Vanstone etc. Let the small family farm run their 100 sows and make a living. Form cooperatives in local area so they still have the numbers to have a voice.

Pigfarmer, sounds to me like you have an understanding marketing
problem.

Here is an example of a company doing it really successfully in
the chicken world, its a win-win situation. Go into any supermarket
in WA and you can buy Mt Barker free range chicken.

http://www.mtbarkerchicken.com.au/mtbarker.php?page=Aboutus

"To join into your discussion group it is necessary to join Yahoo - which I'm in the process of doing now!"

Scout you are taking your damn sweet time! ( :

Someone else from here has already signed up in there ahead of you.

Regards

Oh forgot to add to my last post:

Yabby need not reply

Yabby - I don't believe it you have finally provided something useful, so useful in fact it bears repeating:

"Go into any supermarket
in WA and you can buy Mt Barker free range chicken."

And you even provided a link. Well done. What a good boy you are. How many posts did it take before you provided something positive? Oh, never mind, it was worth the wait - congratulations.

Pigfarmer & Wendy - will you be adding Yabby's contribution to your websites?

Cheers m'dears.

PS

mjpb - sorry but I have limited internet time, was in the middle of registering and you can guess the rest. As you know registering on yahoo takes more than just an email address and password.

Sure scout. Now Yabby go back to the supermarket and find me some free range PORK - thats what I was talking about not chooks. Do you even read the emails thru before you jump in? Nevermind, I think I could write your response for you - you are so predictable.

Sorry if I take the focus off the farm animal discussion going on, but I'd like to give you a different link before I forget because I find this extremely important as well.

I was looking at a brochure from Avon (they sell cosmetics, beauty care products, hair care etc) and checked out on google whether they were cruelty free.

I found this cool site where you can check any brand of cosmetics/beauty care to find out if the belong to the cruelty free, not tested on animals list.

There's a link to Australian or US companies.

http://www.allforanimals.com/cruelfree1.htm

Pigfarmer I would absolutely LOVE to find your products in supermarkets in NSW.

If anyone has, easily on hand, links to some pictures of animal cruelty- mainly live export and intensive farming, could yu gieve them as I am collecting information and pictures to give a talk in my local area to make people aware.

I know Wendy has provided some but I am disorganised with filing and didn't file the links and the posts are getting sooooo long that it's time consuming to find back the links I'm after. It would be of great help!

About sticking pictures of cruelty on meat packages- would be good if it was only teenagers and adults who saw them but lots of 2 and 3 year olds go shopping with parents too and I wouldn't want my own kids exposed to those pictures if they were bad.

Some warning words would be good: "this pig has spent all its life in a cage that was too small for it to walk one step" or something in that light.

Watch The 60Minutes Report On Live Exports On The 60Minutes Website

http://www.halakindmeats.com/elders.html

http://www.livexports.com/links.html

here are some links. You will find plenty on our web pages by typing in either PALE on a googles or
Halal Kind Meats. We are expereincing some technical problems toningt so we will catch up with everybody later. Mike I send you two emails. Yopu masy have replied. Sorry if you have however we are not receiving much mail

Pigfarmer, do you have the foggiest business skills or knowledge
about marketing at all? You are not in a shearing shed now :)

So what if its chicken? Its a huge success story or taking free
range products right through to the consumer, to the point where
consumers demand it, so even Coles HAVE to stock it.

If you are going to make a go of this thing, learn what all those
people in similar industries around you did, to make it work.
If they had a huge success, clearly you can learn something!

You can start small and unreliable supplies, by selling at farmers
markets. Forget showing evil pictures, the mind works by assosiation. Shopping is an emotional experience. Packaging
matters! Colour matters! Your packaging should reflect a clean
and green image and happy pigs!

Scout I could make all sorts of contributions, but I tend to focus
on one thing at a time. Up to now its been Wendy's obsession with
the live trade, using historic data. Wendy is wrong, but you'll all
learn that the hard way, given time.

Australia could actually work wonders in the Middle East, if our
budget there was tripled or quadrupled. If they havent learnt yet over
there, after so many thousand years, its well overdue that somebody
showed them and we are in a prime position to do that, without
being George Bush like in our arrogant attitudes. See that over
5-10 years and the result could be amazing, but of course all you
guys don't think of animals outside our borders. Just remember that
100'000 sheep a week die in Australian paddocks. We have plenty
to get on with right here, when it comes to animal welfare, without
being so very arrogant to claim that we know it all and are so
perfect.

Ciliva
Wendy asked me to forward you some links. However I wiped some by error. I wont be able to get it back. However I remember reading her saying in her email if you gop onto the pale web site to links there are lots there. She said also on HKM web site. Its probably the best I can do until She is back on air. Hope that helps. I am busy but i will be back also.

Yabby, did I miss a link of an article that shows that so many sheep die in paddocks? Do you have the link? I didn't know this.

Thank you, Benny- much appreciated. Hope your computers will be fixed soon. Otherwise there is always the..... sledgehammer.
Seriously, so frustrating if pc don't work.

"Stuck in the middle with you"
People, even if the petition is a Dutch one, the song is in English and some text.
But this is such a great petiton and little very very cute and sad animaltion, you MUST see it!
Perhaps there's an English version somewhere but haven't found it.
It's a petition for caged chickens from the European Union.

http://www.ciwf.nl/inactie/legkippen/doemee/index.htm

Celivia, I am sure you did not know this. Lots of stuff that you
don't know, that happens right here in our country. Perhaps
you could ask the resident woolclasser, about shearers popping
sheep into the boot of their cars, to take home for meat supplies.
No stun guns used either lol.

That figure is not advertised on websites for all to see, but
its easily verifiable. Australia has 100 million sheep, every
Ag Dept will tell you that about 5% will die a year on farm.
Thats 5 million sheep a year or roughly 100'000 a week.

Sorry people, link didn't seem to work- try this one.

http://www.ciwf.nl/inactie/legkippen/doemee/index.html

I take it thats a no on finding free range pork in the supermarket yabby? Can you come up with a farmer in WA at all? .. and lets not harp on about chooks again.

As for shearers - dont forget those that break a sheeps necks or slice thru its jugular simply because it wouldnt stay still. (not laughing out loud) But that doesnt happen in WA - footloose sheep and all. (better management over there apparently)

Pigfarmer, marketing freerange meat, compared to factory farmed stuff,
comes down to similar principles, be it chicken or pork
or beef, or whatever. If you don't understand that, marketing is
clearly not your aptitude lol, find somebody over there to advise
you who does, or start simply at a growers market. Meantime hang
on to that classers ticket :)

Yup, WA leads the field (yet once again) in footloose sheep,
without wool at all, so no need for shearers breaking necks,
or pressers on speed, with more strength then brains. If
you have worked in sheds, you know what I mean.

Dorpers, Damaras, various composites, are multiplying here at
rates that would astound you! I notice quite a few Eastern
Staters around, frantically buying genetics here now.

However thanks for doing me a favour in verifying for me
that lots of stuff happens right here in Aus, that we should
not be proud of and that the notion that us Aussies have it
all perfect and all those in the Middle East are evil, is in
fact a myth.

Yabby

Pig farmer has better skills than you not to mention ethics!

Yes Coles HAVE to have chicken Free Range and eggs due to public demand.

Thats is because battery hens have up until now gained more media attention.

PORK FREERANGE is next! Big time so soon Coles and Woolworths will HAVE to have Free Range Pork as WELL.

They have a duty of care to ensure the product they sell is produced through humane conditions.

Thank you! You just gave me another idea of whom to Sue!

Now lets talk Turkey shall we?

Pig Farmer and No farmer should HAVE to be marketing specialists anyway!
We all know the way it works [Worked.] Its going to change.

Farmers pay their fees and the marketing is set up by boards giving the little man no say.

Of course Amandas cruel intensive piggery have been marketed more.

DPI told a farmer to WATCH his methods because he sounded Animal he cared about the animals.

Lets talk MLA Cattle man ass NFF whoever Livecorp.

PORK if you like.! They take the funds and levies and PUSH their own agendas.
My tax money goes to fund live exports even if I dont agree with live exports.
Every single working Australian as well! $650.00 per person per year

Yo 1000'000 Sheep die a WEEK die in Australian paddocks!

All the more reason for us not to breed them isnt it.

Not in proven death areas because of no water and LESS care.

Most of them are bred by WEALTHY people who export like Rupert Murdoch, so dont tell me HE cant afford staff! BAN SHEEP BREEDING IN PROVEN DROUGHT AREA.

Employ staff to run properties properly or get out of the biz.

Australia could work wonders in the Middle East.

Christ Yabby they are not so poor they need the few bucks from the Aussie farmers and public.

Fix our own Animal Welfare FIRST.

Wait until you all get run through court to return the funds to the Australian people you stole and sent off shore.

Pig Farmer would run rings around you. .

Pig Farmers isnt into sheep you fool.

Your not reasonsible for the new breed of sheep either.

I knew when you rang me you had no idea so thats not what is bothering me.
Whats bothering me is you get on here and talk so much utter crap.

ok Lets! inform the public shall i? about marketing Ah/

Since you want to make out to the forum that pig farmer just couldnt be as clever as the evil corp low lifes that keep pigs cattle in intensive farms.

THATS AREAS THAT THEY CANT EVEN TURN AROUND IN

Pigs! You see them chewing madly at the bars, eyes sticking out of their heads screaming going mad to get free or JUST MOVE.

Yep marketing ladies and gentleman.

They all pay their fees and levies, including YOU ladies and gentleman.

As a matter a fat almost $800.00 per year comes out of YOUR TAX money. its going to suuport that!

Dont want to support cruelty with YOUR taxes? either do I.

Dont want to support LIVE EXPORTS with your! taxes. Either do I

. Dont want to suport Amandas intensive piggery of cruelty either do I.

Of course ! Free Range is not marketed like Amandas or Ruphert Murdochs .

Its called favours for the boys.

Farmers should NOT have to be reasonsible for marketing to that degree.

Well Yabby soon everybody will want free range pork. Oh by the way, you know that PORK add on TV YOUR PAYING FOR IT out of YOUR taxes because they didnt like us showing up the CRUEL intensive pig farms.

Hush Hush They might
hear you. Well the whole of Australia will know the well kept secrets soon i promise.

Even up the use of the Fees paid by all! farmers.

Nothing is being done to promote Free Range Only intensive but WE pay for it.

Yep, that’s a no from yabby on the free range pork question! Sure pigs, chooks, cattle, all the same thing …..whatever. No point discussing a market you know nothing about.

As for sheep, LOTS of thing happen here in oz, but it was you that tried to tell us that sheep had such a footloose life here, whats a few weeks on a boat? Not expecting anyone to call your bluff?

You are right Wendy. We are forced to pay our levies to Australian Pork Limited, yet they openly condemn free range farming on their website. Based on science of course! When you go into a butcher shop and see those glossy posters for ‘New Fashioned Pork’, ‘Get Pork on Your Fork’ etc, they are all supplied by APL. They are constantly in the ear of the butchers, so when they wont support free range farming, indirect or even direct pressure is put on butchers just to ignore these extremeists, weather out the storm, it will all go away eventually and people will forget all about those piggery raids and things will go back to normal. Therefore, the butcher with a conscience or even the good business sense to sell free range, will be left high and dry with no supply. Supposedly.

APL actually say free range is a cruel practice, intensive farming is best for the pigs welfare. Woolworths have based their lack of support for FRP on APL information. Woolies reckon they are looking after the environment by not supporting free range piggeries. http://savebabe.com/woolworths_response.html What if MLA or Coles came out and said that about cattle feedlots – they were in the best interest of the animals and the environment – there would be an uproar. Not the pig industry, too few players with too much money and influence.

There are not enough free range farmers to supply the market and until there is, there will not be confidence in the supply of the product. Marketing the product is not the problem, converting more farms to free range is the answer. We have to guarantee continuity of supply.

As Pigfarmer said: "We have to guarantee continuity of supply."

And that's where we, the hoi polloi, can really make a difference. We tell the Supermarkets what we want. Not just once, but every time we go shopping.

Believe me, freerange pork is not only ethical, environmentally sustainable but it simply tastes better and you don't have to worry about ingesting anti-biotics and who knows what other artificial additives.

Freerange is WIN/WIN/WIN. Good for animal well being, good for us and good for the environment.

Intensive farming - affects the health and well being not only of the farmed animals but of ourselves and our children.

Big time corporations only listens when their hip pockets are hurt. They are very vulnerable, because ultimately the consumer chooses.

I will be posting a bit less for the next two weeks as I need time for planning and writing, Antje and Wendy have kindly offered to monitor this thread for me.

Thanks to everyone - even Yabby whose presence reminds us that we must be vigilant and positive.

LOL