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The Forum > General Discussion > Freedom of Speech

Freedom of Speech

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G I Jane,

What you perceive as curtailment of "Freedom of Speech," with the case of - David Irving - is wrong. The fact of the matter is, people simply don't care to listen to what he has to say. He's been exposed for what he is... someone who bends historical evidence until it conforms to his "idealogical leanings" and political agenda. He is not credible.
He uses a double standard for evidence, demanding absolute proof for establishing Nazi guilt and only circumstantial evidence by which to condemn the Allies.

People don't want to legitimize his arguments as worth considering, or give him an audience that he doesn't deserve.
In any case it is impossible to argue with people like him, given their contempt for the tools of honest debate.

But historically, there have been many denialists. Except that today -nobody remembers their names.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 7:25:30 PM
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Can the details be discussed or must we go around in circles?
When I said that the holocaust deniers have been silenced you all reacted with extreme emotion. How brain-washed are you?
Hollywood movies are propaganda.
The holocaust is simply an example and yet it has become, for many of you in here, the focus of the conversation.
What about Dr Watson not being allowed to report his scientific findings that race and intelligence are linked?
Posted by GI_Jane, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 7:29:47 PM
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GI_Jane. I thought we were engaged with the issue of freedom of speech - Foxy, Antonius, I and others have addressed the issue. You seem largely to have ignored our comments.

David Irving was jailed in Austria and banned from coming to Australia because of his views. I agree with you that this is beyond appalling, and an abysmal solution to the problem of his stupidity. Stupidity is always be left to expose itself.

Re James Watson, I cannot find any evidence that he was censored. (Here's an cover story that certainly suggests otherwise - http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/independent-frontpage.jpg ) Instead, what appears to have happened is that he was dropped from speaking gigs, forced to resign from his laboratory, and generally had his professional life thwarted. I entirely agree that these were egregious follies. It makes my blood boil.

On the same topic, here's an article about a scientist silenced by the Bush Administration for speaking out about global warming. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17926941
Posted by Vanilla, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 8:46:52 PM
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GI_Jane, Dr. James Watson does not, nor ever has to my knowledge, conducted any sort of scientific enquiry into race and intelligence. Perhaps this is why he has been censured (as different to censored). Gross misunderstandings as to the nature of his remarks, such as the one just displayed by yourself, only goes to show why they have been denounced so thoroughly.
Posted by Bugsy, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 9:17:25 PM
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The wikipedia entry on this part of James Watson's career should elucidate some of the issues that you're arguing about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_D._Watson#Statement_claiming_links_between_race_and_intelligence.

Vanilla, equating the Hansen beat-up with the treatment of Watson, seems to me to be quite obtuse. Hansen was so "censored" that he gets to make an announcement about it, regularly features in the media, shares in a Nobel Peace Prize and still retains his position at NASA. Watson is shunned, and at least on one reading, driven out of his job.

I'm with GI_Jane. I thought more than twice before allowing this post concerned at the sort of discussion it might provoke. I think the discussion does prove her point. There are some topics that you almost can't talk about in "polite" company. It's just another form of discrimination to judge the suitability of someone on the basis of just one set of beliefs that they hold.
Posted by GrahamY, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 9:36:18 PM
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I must say though, that although Watson's remarks were misconstrued, they were misconstrued by many sides of the issue. Even though Watson himself has denounced the original interpretation of statements attributed to him (ie the "racist" interpretation), he is still being held up as an example of not being allowed to present "scientific findings that race and intelligence are linked". Watson himself, of course would be completely horrified that his name is being used in this way also. We should all just leave him alone, really.
Posted by Bugsy, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 10:05:18 PM
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