"McCain Hands Obama a Weapon

After discussing the campaign finance cudgel McCain could use against Obama, I figure it’s worth mentioning the brickbat Obama could now use against McCain: torture.

McCain has been a regular critic of harsh interrogation techniques, insisting in a presidential debate on Nov. 28 that the Army Field Manual, which prohibits the use of force, should be the standard. But yesterday he voted against the Intelligence Authorization Bill that, among other things, would ban torture in CIA interrogations."

this quote from 'slate' doesn't mean quite what it says, because bush had promised to veto the legislation. but it does underline that mccain regards his announced opposition to torture as a matter of political convenience.

i suggest to ozzians, once again, that hanging around these yankee vultures is bad for our reputation, and will have further substantive repercussions.

Our politicians act like these crimes don't exist. I think they should constantly be making it very clear that they find it hypocritical and flat out sickening and unless the usa is pressured then there will be consequences for the alliance. Really makes me want to throw up.

Steel while I agree with some of you post may I ask what you think about the terrorists be headings?
I have a view about your one sided interpretations of world events.
America should not torture ever but at least they openly debate it not so in the middle east.
McCain DEMOS lived in a cadge in north Vietnam for a few years and was tortured a great deal he should have known better but he understands torture better than you and I.

Juan McCain is a loose cannon, unfortunately, he is all we have. As bad as he is, he is much better then the extreme leftist choices we have in the Democrat party. I have heard all the arguments about sitting out the election, but they don't make sense, considering the alternatives, Bill Clintons wife and the moslem, Barack Hussien Obama.
Yes, he is a moslem. Under moslem law, the relgion of peace, you cannot change your religion, that makes you an apostate and subject to beheading. Kids are exempt, until they are old enough to make a proper decision, and then they may keep their heads, or continue with the apostate decision and lose their heads. Borat Hussain Obama, to the best of my knowledge, has never denounced islam. He is a friend of of the moslem terrorist who lost the election in Kenya, a 90% non moslem country, and the minority moslem population is on a killing rampage. Things you don't generally see in the western media, and when you do, there is no mention of the moslem rampage, it is called tribal conflict. Where in the world is there war where moslems aren't involved, I can't think of any place.

DeepDarkOpps

Belly, measuring yourself against brutal criminals is hardly a means of determining your moral virtue, if you are willing to engage in their techniques. That would make you into a brutal criminal yourself

Seems like you have a Friend in the thread steel,please place me with great pride on the opposite side to your self.
My understanding of criminal acts is not one sided or based on hate.

But you are the one-sided one. You endorse things like torture, because it's "better than what they do". That doesn't put you much above them as it's a very low bar and it's not the whole picture anyway. A nation that can pride itself on honour does not endorse torture or any other cruel and degrading punishment.

DeeprkOpps sounds like a nut. Read this please about Obama and stop spreading filthy lies: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

Belly - not knocking you, just confused.

You said: "America should not torture ever but at least they openly debate it not so in the middle east." and then said you were proudly taking the opposite stance to Steele, who was saying that we should disassociate ourselves from the American proclivity for employing torture.

Am not quite sure where the middle eastern beheadings come into it, either.

Are you condoning America's use of torture or condemning it? I can't quite follow what you mean.

Romany I will try ,no one no country should torture ever.
My views on steel are based not just on this thread but the history of a lot of posts.
One about a womens magazine in Iraq is live now.
It is said that to comment on the life of females in that country you should first take out citizen ship of that land.
It will always be my view the west has much to answer for, we often get it wrong, but we at least question ourselves.
After a human bomb kills innocents in the middle east while no doubt suffering the people closest to them are treated like hero's .
Steel, I may be wrong, appears to be one sided and it is not the west side in my view.

Re Obama
I think DeepDarkOpps misjudges/misdescribes Obama.
A lot on the left don’t like him because he has the guts to ditch the tradition Black V White scenarios. He is serious the best “Republican” to vote for .

Re Torture
The first problem you face is determining what is torture.
And, whatever list you settle on today will change tomorrow .
The list keeps growing all the time ( to the benefit of the ‘prisoner’)
Yesterdays legitimate interrogation techniques are today’s torture techniques.

And an anti-torture stance is often just another cover for Anti-Americanism

Belly, thank you for taking the time to answer my post and clarify your position for me.

Belly I'm simply against hypocrisy. Cry more. Gay people are discriminated against right here in Australia. In this country they are actively denied rights to marriage. Your opinion actually counts here. A women's magazine in Iran being cut is pretty much their decision and that's essentially my point. You'd be better served fixing discrimination in your own country rather than shouting into the void where your opinions will be easily discarded as those of foreigners who have no business in Iran. It's realistic, practical viewpoint that avoids hypocrisy. Let those who are without sin cast the first stone, remember? Another example in Australia is that women are forced to wear clothes on the upper half of their body, whereas men are free to remain shirtless. I'm not saying you can't criticise Iran, but don't assume that your opinion is worth anything to them. Your opinion is worth something here in Australia and with it you can fix discrimination and censorship here and then lead by example.

I also mentioned in the other thread that the USA installed a dictatorship where once there was a democracy in Iran. Do you even comprehend what that means? How can you hold up the west as a shining example of moral virtue, when those very nations took away Iranian democracy and deprived them of freedom? That is not biased. It's a fact. It's also a fact, that Australia discriminates and censors media itself. And it's a fact that your opinion is worth a lot more if you were to direct it at these domestic Australian abuses, since you are a citizen of Australia and not Iran.

Come steel, surely you jest? I can hardly be said to hold the west up as a shining light.
My thoughts in threads such as Burma is the UN asleep? question the intent of the west too why the mess in Africa? why intervene in Kosivo so late but not in Africa?
Another says the left does not like Obama?
I think he is the hope of the world.
I am left of center but not true left center unity that is Labors right.
But I do think humans must have the right to say what they think, in Iraq monthly almost I get involved in union campaigns to free workers , I always will.
Steel all humans are equal in my view one day we will be free to truly say that, not you and I, not in our life time but if not humans are not as great as I think they are.

I am surprised that even the media here (like in the US) doesn't mention the Dr.Ron Paul. Media does have ties huh?
Go Ron Paul!!

America has not indulged in torture, as a matter of policy. Those who say we do, the leftists, are nut cases. Consider, the arabs and moslems
gouge out eyes, chop off limbs and heads, burn people alive, fillet them alive, etc. etc. etc. What is America accused of, water boarding ? sleep deprivation, making people get naked or other such nonsense. Is that the leftist view of equivalence ? Unfortunately, that is the comparison and the leftist case. Sick.

.

Deep Chops, you have just demonstrated the very best definition of TRULY SICK.

That is the American Neo-Con who has placed this entire globe into paranoia/intolerance and the end result of this; a very real fear of attack.

You people are not fit to judge others. You are an absolute disgrace.

"America has not indulged in torture, as a matter of policy."

That's flat out wrong. You should do a bit more reading.

When one thinks of McCain in prison in Vietnam, one realises he got there for doing exactly the same thing that David Hicks was possibly considered he might have thought about--dropping bombs randomly, 30 tonnes at a time, on innocent civilians in an undeclared war that had absolutely no rational basis against a country that was no threat to the USA. McCain was as much a terrorist as any Moslem extremist, OKAY-he was OUR terrorist and that makes it okay, and he shouldn't have gone to jail. Sorry, I had forgotten.

We all fear for Obamas safety. Not from Islamic Fundamentalist but from his countries own establishment. A country that resorts to such depths regarding torture, agent orange, Depleteted uranium, cluster bombs, propping up fascists governments they would stoop to assasinate their own President.

Don't worry. As history has shown unequivocally, assassination of Presidents is a natural and normal part of American culture. They know how to elect another one.

Deeprkopps - is your head in the sand completely?

Look at The war on Democracy by John Pilger for a history of CIA led torture in Latin America.

And the rest!

torture? When America's neo-cons have terrorized whole nations do you expect from them to respect human or prisoners rights? USA not only use any kind of torture to collect information from suspects but if they are not happy with their results they sent the suspects to other countries, famous for their brutality as Egypt. The problem with USA is that they do not torture only extremists but many times innocent people who have nothing to do with terrorists. I remind the Canadian Muslim Businessman who was in California on 11 September for Business, abducted from CIA and tortured for long time in USA without results, he did not know anything about terrorists, at the end CIA send him to Syria for farther torture and interrogation. At the end he cleaned his name in Canadian courts but he suffer very hard.
There are many totally innocent people who abducted and tortured hard, to find at the end they was innocent.
The war against terrors in high degree became war against Muslims, war against migrants, but MAINLY war against Human Rights, including the turture.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

There is a good article from Basil Fernando, president from the Asia Human Commission about the freedom of Torture in the web address http://www.alrc.net/doc/mainfile.php/documents/457/
Please read it.
The future opportunities for the eradication of torture and proliferation of universal human rights within the current global discourse
(A presentation for the International Seminar on Freedom from Torture – Challenges we face for the rehabilitation and prevention on the occasion on the 25th anniversary of the Rehabilitation and Research Centre for Torture Victims (RCT), October 30, 2007)
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Well, it seems to me you all don't understand what torture is, and/or you are a bunch of leftist American Haters. As for torture, unfortunatly, you have no clue what torture is. Contrast America with the rest of the world and you may get some insight into torture. Do we cut off limbs, gouge out eyes, brand and burn, through people off roofs, drown them, etc.etc. etc. Unfortunatly, the answer is no. We treat moslem scum as if they were human, a trait which they show no characteristics of being. We don't do to them what they do to us and that is a big problem. They see us as weak and laugh at us, our humanitarianism, our ethics, our civility, our culture, our goodness,
our humaneness and our unwillingness to inflict collateral damage. This will be the downfall of the West, winning a war, we probably can't do it because of political correctness, our sick culture, that states when in war, it is better that our troops die, then to inflict possible collateral damage to the enemy. This is a truly a sick Western philosophy which may cause our demise. We only have to watch
Israel in the coming days, a sick, weak, Western democracy, afraid to defend itself with the force needed, afraid of world opinion, when they need to defend themselves. Just like America.

DeepDarkOpps

Did they let you out Deep Chops or did you escape??

re: Ginx

Surreptitiously escaped, what the hell do you think.

DeepDarkOpps

It figures.