Well yes she can, but just maybe she will not the last American election was one Democrats should never have lost.
Yet they did in my view the day they selected the wrong candidate.
Hilary may not be the wrong candidate but can she win?
Her party has a choice two candidates each with a strong following each would make history if they won.
Bit of a risk here but I do not think she can win.
She would make a good leader America would be a better country for it but that is my judgment.
Why? if Obarma drops out his followers may just balk at following the party line.
The campaign has got dirty and clouded by issues of race and gender, in the final wash some men are bound to say no to a female leader .
I am biased I clearly want Clinton's opponent to win but am not blind to the fact Hilary is a great prospect.

Dear Belly,

I feel that Hillary Clinton will win.

She will invite Barack Obama to be her Vice-President.

Win, Win, all round.

That is my prediction - for what its worth.

I'll be watching the news closely for all the developments.

American politics has suddenly become interesting...

And, about time!

I am not changing my view she can not, we must remember her opponent is far different.
The republican one I mean, he can take votes from her party away from her even is likely to do so.
After I posted the thread I read in the Australian a story saying she may be behind already.
It will be a win win if she makes it all the way but I feel she will not get there.

It will make absolutely no difference to how the American administration continues to view it their perogative to bomb the rest of the world.

Dear Henry,

That's why I'm hoping that an intelligent woman will make it as President.

We don't want a repeat of the previous Administrative blunders.

"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty." - Bernard Shaw.

So but I think Henry had to get his own personal biases of his chest.
The comment did not explore the thread , it hints of the worst in America and ignores the best.
It highlights just how bad a leader G W Bush has been but leaves the promise of change unspoken of.
Threads die because of such posts.
Look around the forum any day, after such a pointless post even I not longer visit as it looks to be pointless to try to get back to the subject.
In a thread America a debate Foxy you and I highlighted a far different America.
It is easy to defame the USA but in truth, full honest truth, who would swap life in America for the killing Fields of the African Continent?
Or any middle eastern country?
My thread is a view and a hope of change in that great country, not unlike our own has begun.
I have a view that the Democrats are not yet over the line.
That Clinton is still to beat her own party's opponent.
And that both of them would face a far different man than Bush.
Should Obarma win he faces race issues.
Should it be Clinton she faces many issues not the least gender.

Hillary is closer to the Republicans than she is to Obama.
She vows that she will never seek a dialogue with Hugo Chavez, She regards the Cuba leadership as an enemy to her country. She voted for the Iraq war and supports Bush with the surge until victory is achieved. She promised to bring in a truly National Health Service then got bought out to scrap the idea. Let us hope that it will be the first black president and not the eldest president or female president.

*That's why I'm hoping that an intelligent woman will make it as President. *

Foxy, I remind you that Hillary voted for the war, Obama
was against it, so there is clearly more to it then
sexual organs.

Obama is what America needs, but then perhaps American
voters arn't smart enough to understand or see that,
given that they thought that George and Dick were
wonderful, last time around. Slowly they might
be learning, with a bit of pain...

Hillary and Bill can then act as advisors etc, or VP,
or whatever you want to call it.

Fact is America needs to change course, with new
ideas and a whole new leadership. Otherwise the place
will just keep going down the gurler, a bit more every
day, as at present.

Dear Yabby,

All people make mistakes - even politicians. However I'm still leaning towards Hillary Clinton - I suppose because I know more about her. We lived and worked in the States for nine and a half years.

Hilary Rodham Clinton - to me is a formidable figure in American politics. She charted her own course through unexplored terrain - responding to the challenging times and her own internal compass - and became an emblem for some and a lightning rod for others.

Wife, mother, lawyer, advocate, senator, and international icon, she has lived through America's great political wars, from Watergate to Whitewater.

And I do believe that she'll take America towards a totally new direction. With her, "It's always about the future."
About what must be done to make America smarter, healthier, richer, stronger, and better - above all - better, and how Americans can prepare to compete and cooperate in a global economy.

As a New Yorker exclaimed on TV, "She cares!"

Dear Foxy,

I think it is hard to deny, that Hillary got to where she is,
due to being married to Bill. Obama got to where he is,
through his own efforts, despite his background.

The difference between the two became clear, when there
was a debate about Iran. Obama's view as that if there
was a problem, it was best to sit down and discuss it.
Hillary crapped on about the prestige of the US
presidency. What prestige?

That is exactly why I support Obama, his thinking
is well ahead of Hillary, who still represents the
old school of politics and is unable to think outside
the square, as Obama is.

What your comment showed is a hint of sexism, ie as
a girl, you would like to see a girl win. I'm
making my judgement purely on ability. If Hillary
had Obama's talent, I would support her, but she
clearly does not.

I refer to the American administration, not America. America , like most societies, is complex and populated by the good, the bad and the ugly, as well as Clint Eastwood. If one looks at the American administration, there is a consistent pattern of behaviour; some Presidents , like Clinton and Kennedy, managed to arrange good PR whilst bombing people. Others, like Bush2 don't bother with PR. But the fact remains that successive American administrations have continued to systematically undermine governments that haven't paid their tribute and to bomb them, or send in terrorists (as per Nicaragua) if they should wish to run their affairs in a manner that doesn't suit the US administration. It goes back to the 1800s. Who is president hasn't mattered much in the past, and it won't matter much in the future. Most empires throughout history have behaved in the same manner. Which Emperor will run Rome? Which King or Queen of England will come to the throne next? Which apparatchik will run Russia or China? Sorry to be a pessimist.

A thread America a debate exists Henry as you post does not address the intent of this one can you and I talk there?
America, and for that matter Australia is unlikely to care about Cuba or Hugo what ever.
Thee candidates remain with a chance , we must look at the Republican leadership to understand a far different man than Bush stands there.
He will take Democrat votes, no matter who leads them, it is human nature.
Obama, my firm prediction to be the candidate is black, America is America.
Clinton can not gain from white water or a great deal of Bills history, in my view he was a great leader but.
A long race far from over momentum is with Obama at present let us see, my prediction remains ,he will be the candidate but is not yet assured of victory in the big one.

Dear Yabby,

No, I'm not pro Hillary Clinton because she's female. (I hadn't noticed actually - smile).

Seriously though, gender did not come into it. I judge politicians on their performance.

It's simply that I know more about her political recod - and I know very little about Barack Obama's

I think the thread is about not what we want but what we think will happen.
Yes some of us think and want one candidate to win both the primary's and the big one.
I think Obama will win the primary's.
I want that too.
I think he has far the better chance of winning at years end.
If Republicans win America may as well have Bush for a third term.
And momentum is still with Obama, maybe I am wrong but I do not see him failing in todays race beating Hilary.
Things however happen it truly is a chance that both are damaging themselves and it is not imposable the party could draft some one else at the last minute.

Putting it bluntly, if America wants a change, albeit not a great one; they have the choice of a 'black' man, and a woman.

I don't think they want either. I hope they do. But I can't shake the feeling that that perception could give McCain the Presidency.

*Caucus-goer Paul Steven-Miller, a former White House policy adviser to ex-president Bill Clinton, said: "I'm a big fan of Senator Clinton and I thought long and hard about my decision, but ultimately I think Senator Obama is going to unify and govern in a way that will be very positive for the nation.''* AFP

I think that Obama might well surprise some of you. He's cleaned
up in Washington State, where the smarts live, as they can see
the potential.

The way to win elections in the US is to be able to inspire people
to go and vote. Rove got George elected by inspiring the
evangelicals and they aren't going to rush anywhere for McCain.

Obama is inspiring young people like never before. If he teams
up with Hillary as VP, they could clean up.

It just depends how much pain the Americans are feeling from
George. I get the drift that its alot and that they are ready
for change.

But I agree that Obama's biggest threat will be getting shot,
for surely it will be attempted by the radical right.

Yabby I hope you are wrong about him getting shot but fear you are not.
The issue now is quite complex it may boil down to can the Democrats win, strange but it may well be the question.
Given the latest results Obama is just in front while Clinton is expected to win two big states.
Many think it may fall into the hands of the super delegates, if they do other than pick the same as the voters my question may be answered no the Democrats can not win.
So maybe we need to ask will the Democrats win no matter who wins?
My answer is no.
Obama may , will I think but Hilary may struggle.
Obama momentum is strong if he fails it needs to be seen his followers may not all vote.

Americans have a history of electing people who respect the office to which they are elected, excepting, I would suggest the Nixon/Agnew team but from that process came Ford, who for a non-elected president, did remarkably well and left a lasting legacy from his tenure.

I would suggest also, the staff selection processes which elevated Kissinger, Powell and Rice into prominence affirm the worthiness of the general process.

If it be Obama, Clinton or McCane, ultimately I have every faith the American people will get it right and we will be prepared to live with their decision. That is the way of democratically resolved national politics.

Whichever way it goes, it will be a win for the "right" of politics, which can never be a bad thing.

I only hope whoever comes to power has strong resolve to deal with the UN and the aberrant practices which have all the charm of a political charnel house.

Thanks Col think we just took a wrong turn right? Hilary is from the right? of her party maybe.
Obama would not be a puppet leader he would look for real change.
No chance seems to exist for a Clinton Obama team.
So one or the other conservatives are concerned the man who will lead them is not conservative enough we live in interesting times
Still tip Obama to win or it will be a Republican white house.
Not bias just what I think I see in American politics today.

Belly "Still tip Obama to win or it will be a Republican white house.
Not bias just what I think I see in American politics today."

I lived in USA for 2 1/2 years. I did not understand their politics when I lived there and am no closer now.

The classic response from the UK was always

In the UK there was the right wing, represented by the conservatives and the left wing represented by Labour.

In the USA there are the Republicans, they are very much like the UK conservatives and then there are the Democrats, they are very much like the UK conservatives . . . .

I would note the US Union movement did not follow the political pattern of trade unions elsewhere. I think it might be because the history and generally inherited values of the USA tend to support what many consider to be to "the right of politics".

From my UK upbringing, I always considered it a significant advantage for the USA to be challenged at elections with policies from opposing parties which were far more similar than the diversity of the UK.

The UK suffered seriously, for whatever reason, with a swing of the political pendulum which represented a far wider arch between opposing political agendas.

I guess I recall Margaret Thatcher coming to power, a female US President would not concern me. Ultimately, the far more bipartisan nature of much of US politics ensures they get a better mix than most other countries which are run exclusively along party lines.

Yes Col you are about right but I want to differ a little bit.
Democrats have at times been close to British and Australian Labor.
Bill Clinton and if she gets the chance Hilary are intent on a better health system.
And why not? the current thing they have is dreadful!
The divide Democrats /Republican has never been wider than it now is.
But it is not yet as wide as we have.
We however have traveled some way toward their Democrats , that will see me branded right wing and class traitor but it is true.
We must watch the primary's today closely, this race is not over, my views stand, but anything can happen.
Point to watch, the part super delegates will play.
Both Obama and Hilary are getting a bit hot under the collar keep it clean or another candidate will be found it happens.
The impending two big state votes in a few weeks are not yet going to vote Obama will they change?
And yabby highlighted the insane factor in America it could play a part.

Belly “that will see me branded right wing and class traitor but it is true.”

I was brought up in a “working class” household in UK. My dad worked on the railways and my grandfathers, one was a driller in a dockyard and the other did variously everything from toolmaker to bus driver.

One comment I would make to your statement which might explain the difference in our political philosophy.

You use the term “class traitor”.

To use that term means “class” must mean something to you.

I used the term only to identify my origins, not as some label I see stamped on my forehead.

The reasons I migrated from UK were to change the things I could not alter within myself.

The entrenched attitude toward “class” which prevailed many other English folk was one of them.

I recall an argument between one of my uncles and an aunt. The uncle (my favourite actually), was a dockyard rigger, hard labouring work, the aunt, married to his brother was a nice lady and her husband was MD of a large engineering company. I do not recall how it started but it ended with the observation by the aunt that my (favourite) uncle was an inverted snob who wore his working classness like a suit of armour.

She was right.

She and my other uncle had evolved from where “class” mattered. My other uncle was still entrenched in it.

I am like my aunt.

I have moved from where class matters. I do not associate politics with class. I do not follow the politics of my parents. I try to view the world through classless values where shiny shoes, a plumb stone in the mouth and an old school tie mean nothing.

As for the USA, they place far less value in “class”. That is another good thing about their system.

I normally agree with much of what Yabby writes but on the matter of conspiracy theories for the assassination of presidential candidates, I will disagree.

The USA has a “health system”. It is not good.

Nor is UK system.

Col, I'm not into conspiracy theories either, I'm simply going
by my understanding of the US.

There is a huge gun culture there, which is part of their way
of life. IIRC something like 100'000 a year are shot and around
20'000 a year die from guns. Its part of their way of life and
thats how they grow up. Most of the gun culture people are
on the republican side of politics.

Last time I was in the US, I asked the New Orleans taxi driver
how dangerous his job was. He mentioned that 6 of his buddies
had been shot that year and it was only August.

Whilst there are some very sophisticated and innovative people
in the US, its a country of extremes and there are plenty of
extremely primitive ones, also many mentally unstable ones
on the streets and guns are easily available to them.

Alot of these kids have grown up learning that guns are the
solution to a problem, no wonder so many school kids are shot.

Another thing I found in the US is huge hatred between the
races, certainly in the South. Frankly I will me quite amazed
if a few of these mentally unstable, gun toting haters don't
take a shot at Obama. I mean, they even shot John Lennon.

Belly, please do not presume I was attempting to be in anyway critical of you earlier, when I was commenting on the issue of “class”. That was not intended at all, I was just expressing what I thought might be part of the reason for the differences of approach to problems which separate you and I. Please accept my apology if you found any offence in what suggested.

Yabby
Agree with you on the gun issue. It is a problem which has been ignored for far too long and when I lived there, my (then) wife had 6 pistols and rifles hanging around the place. Having been brought up in UK, my “attitude” is probably more toward gun restrictions than the average Aussie.

I never experienced interracial hatred but again could well imagine it. One fellow I knew was a song writer and had success with something he wrote following Dr ML Kings demise. He had been confronted by the KKK. He was remarkably calm but he was also a very phlegmatic sort of fellow.

“Frankly I will me quite amazed if a few of these mentally unstable, gun toting haters don't
take a shot at Obama. “

I would suggest the risks Obama might face equal to those which Hilary Clinton and John McCane face.

The problem remains, as you pointed out, not the mentally ill themselves but the ease of access to deadly weapons.

Yabby, "I think it is hard to deny, that Hillary got to where she is,
due to being married to Bill"

Strangly enough I recall that when Bill was president there was a strong view around that Bill got to where he was due to being married to Hillary. I've found a link to a joke that was popular at the time http://www.unwind.com/jokes-funnies/politicaljokes/gasstation.shtml

I'm undecided if she can win. Personally I have not seen anything to convince me that she is someone who has ethics as a central part of her life. Her passion seems to be power.

I don't know much about Obama either but much of what is being said about him by others is interesting.

Either way much like the apology today there may be value for America in passing one of the milestones of race and gender. Sometimes just the fact that something has been done brings release to others.

R0bert

RObert has it right once Hilary was given as the reason Bill had every thing .
Yabby too is right it could happen weird stuff happens in America.
Col Rouge class?
Well I do not think of it like that, but once I did, do not feel my years but I was born in the southern highlands of NSW
Mittagong Bowral Moss vale 62 years ago.
The rich have homes there still, my grand parents worked as House maids and yard workers.
Sorry we did have classes then and for most of my childhood, hats over the hearts when talking to the boss who spoke like an Englishman and while 3rd generation Aussie called England home.
We do not have much of that now and are better for it.
Hilary is not going to be the candidate.
Obama looks bound for the white house a better America?
I hope so.

I gather that the super delegates carry about 20% of the votes,
so they could still change the final outcome, but the impression
I get is that things are swinging more and more behind Obama.

Its seems that the Repulicans would prefer Hillary as their
opposition, as they reckon that alot of Republicans hate her,
so would bother to turn up on voting day, to make sure that
she doesen't get in.

Methinks that Obama has been planning all this for a long time.
He's been pretty careful about voting in the Senate, as he's
aware that whatever a politician decides, he will upset somebody,
so best to say as little of substance as possible. That's
basic politics 101.

Yup, I think he can win the final race. He sounds inspirational,
so can push emotional buttons, whilst Hillary sounds more like
a fishwife when she raises her voice :)

Meantime McCain is just too old and past it. Best he go and
tend the roses or something and accept it.

I think that is the way it will turn out yabby, but Ohio and Texas will go to Clinton.
If it is close or if she lost one , unlikely, it would see her leave the race.
Of interest now is her legal challenges one in Florida if she won them? internal warfare.
The longer this goes the more damage to her side of politics.
Do not however write McCain of because of his age, yes he needs a young strong deputy to jump in his chair if nature calls.
But he is not as unpopular as some think, and will bring anti Obama or Clinton votes to him.

I prefer Obama for USA president but I am not sure if the racists will leave him to live for long time. Obama's supporters are the blacks, young people, Unionists and middle class educated people. He does not have big support from the party's bureaucracy which control 20% of the total votes. The chairman from the Central committee of the Democratic Party, Dean Howard, is enough left according to the USA standards and I hope he will sent some votes from the party's bureaucracy to Obama.
Hillary Clinton is experienced and preparing for long time for USA president, she has strong support from her husband, former USA president and very popular even today. She has strong support from party bureaucracy, from poor noon unionists, women and Latinos, the biggest minority in USA, but she lost her credibility as she supported the war in Iraq and of cause her strong ties with the political establishment in Washington. It is estimated she will grab the majority of the party's bureaucracy, which control 20% of the total votes. Clinton promised to stop the cowboy foreign policy but I can not trust her very much. I think she will work for better health system.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

No Hillary Clinton cannot win she has not got the same charisma as Bill Clinton and her politics are more right wing than John McCain. Obama will beat McCain in a landslide. Britain France Germany and Italy have moved to the right and Australia and America are moving to the left.

Bronco Lane
you seem good, come to Adelaide and I will vote you! Always I voted ALP for the parliament and always I have wanted to cut my hand because I voted you. I think you(ALP) are conservative.
You are right when you said America and Australia are moving left but I do not think they could move more right! The problem with socialist, social democratic and labor parties is that they lost their direction, their credibility, their willing to fight for a better world. I do not think that the ALP won the last elections with its program, it is the Liberals who lost with their mistakes on main issues, as Environment, war in Iraq, workchoice, migrants, women, etc. Australia lack of democracy, if you do not give more power to people, if you do not extend and deepen the democracy, if you do not activate the people, soon, very soon, Australia will become similar with America.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

America has not yet changed its leadership, in truth Obama will win against Clinton, but is not yet over the line.
May I question how you two can even consider America and Australia are going left?
The chances of this are zero, we did not elect the Social alliance in this country.
We elected a conservative ALP government.
Do not paint them red or any color, they while talking the talk have no plans to return union rights of entry.
No intent to let union arbitrate .
No way can you dream of a left learning ALP and America?
Well the Day they are of the left I will look for a way of waking myself up, for sure it will be a dream.

At the time I started this thread I thought as I posted ,however in my mind a split hair existed between Obama and Clinton.
Both if elected would make me happy, both had no easy task even given the American economy and Iraq to win the big one.
In just the life of this thread much has changed.
If Hilary won now, she will not, it would divide the Democrats and see the Republicans win the presidency.
Obama will win he will be the candidate, but by the time this race is over unless it ends very soon the Clinton name will be further damaged.
Hilary is looking strident in her speech's Bill is looking so too, and only a miss direction of super delegates can put them in front.
I am concerned at the anti Obama Medea.
Not unexpected but very real, just maybe a chance exists it may have an impact.
While my view is Obama is bound for the white house nothing can be taken for granted in America.

Belly,
you did not tell me that you are this kind of person!
I wrote that always I voted ALP for the parliament and always I have wanted to cut my hand because I voted you. I think you(ALP) are conservative. But I did not write that always I voted Greens for Senate.
About the America and Australia, I wrote they could not go more right because they was at extreme right.
Belly When we say they are moving left we have 100% right, except if you thing Liberals and ALP are exactly same. NO! Already we signed the Kyoto Protocol, the apology to Aborigines, we are going to demolish the WorkChoice I hope soon to be here our soldiers from Iraq. We speak for some steps to the right direction, some steps which could do only come from a government which stand on the left of the Liberals.
About USA, If we have Obama president, only from his color we will have a president on the left of the white presidents. Do you remember what said few years before, the old racist killer from Missouri in the court? He said that he did not know that was illegal to kill a black man! Obama was against the war in Iraq, he has for long time connections with Unions and poor people, I am sure he will be the most progressive American President ever was.
I am happy that you are not very conservative. You know I want to fight for Migrants rights, I did not started yet simple I test the environment but be sure I will give the battle sooner or later. I need your support.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

Dear Antonios Symeonakis of
Adelaide Graham Young has created a fantastic website here. This has enabled those that are aware and conscious to be able to rub shoulders with each other and to bounce ideas off each other. Tony Benn admirers knew that Tony Blair would be a disaster he was a Gaiteskeillite but the only means of ridding Britain of Thatcherism. We see the same of Kevin O7 who takes up the middle ground ex Australian Democrats together with the New south Wales Catholic Right. Obam will be the working class saviour to bring about the much awaited American National Health Service which Hillary Clinton promised but was bought off by the Private Health Companies as Howard was here in Australia. Obama will create a better world if he is well protected he will bring in gun control. We now see all the many Hollywood actors that are supporting him and Oprah has brought in the womens vote behind him to the detriment of Hillary. Hillary would make a great Deputy but Obama may give the job to Edwards for standing aside and supporting him. Obama has so much charisma and can think on his feet he has done everything right and that is left thinking. Bush has done everything wrong during his term in office.

While we have had a few kinks in the hose the subject has great interest for me.
In just one week Thursday morning in fact we will know the answer to this thread.
Who among us would have thought this campaign would get so very dirty?
Daily almost hourly I can not believe the things Hilary is saying, her team doing, just not the person I once had hope for.
We know, those of us who would be Democrats if we lived in America a win now is not the keys to the white house.
A;long two man race is about to Begin, do not forget it would be historic if Obama wins
I will continue to watch with interest, high hopes and an understanding not to count my chickens yet.

We (the left people) know that the BIG bosses in America are the military, oil and mass media corporations . American presidents do not have enough free space for big changes. American society is not ready for big changes and is not ready to support any president who would like to make big changes. When we say Obama is left we mean is left comparing with other American candidates but sure he is not enough left comparing with an average ALP officer. He is an American progressive. SURE MANY TIMES BETTER THAN BUSH BUT NOT ENOUGH PROGRESSIVE AS I WANT HIM!!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

This time tomorrow will see Hilary Clinton will not be the candidate for the Democrats.
She has in the last month hurt her party and we must not yet claim victory for the Democrats.
Much water to go under the bridge America is different I still think Obama can win but he has it all in front of him.
I see zero lurch to the left as we know it but understand some claim every change is a win for the very left , such claims are as close to a win as they will get in the west.