Why we should allow whaling

http://www.ozpolitic.com/sustainability-party/why-allow-whaling.html

We have no mandate to impose recently acquired cultural taboos on the Japanese people. Since when is it OK to tell other countries what they can and cannot eat?

Below is a list of the ‘hollow’ arguments that have been presented on our forum for why we should ban the harvest of Minke whales and why we should be confident the argument won’t be extended to lots of other animals. Most of them are red herrings (ie irrelevant points). Some additional fallacies are listed afterwards. Most of the arguments centre around cruelty and animal intelligence.

1) whaling is not central to Japanese culture.
2) the Japanese would not starve if they stopped whaling.
3) whaling is a smaller industry than beef, pigs, fishing etc.
4) you can’t group whaling together with other harvests to form a really big group (eg fishing) that sounds too difficult to get rid of.
5) the whaling industry is smaller than it used to be.
6) the whaling industry is (or was) bigger than it was prior to WWII.
7) whaling is done for different reasons than it was historically (oil).
8) whales were not bred for harvest.
9) whales were overharvested in the past (ie ‘they’ can’t be trusted).
10) killer whales appear to be smarter than pigs.
11) we can’t be certain that Minke whales are not smarter than pigs.
12) killing a whale is no different to killing a human.
13) killing a whale takes a while.
14) lots of people think whaling is wrong.
15) the IWC has banned whaling.
16) whaling is conducted via a loophole in the IWC laws.
17) the Japanese subsidise whaling
18) whale watching is valuable
19) the Japanese are putting diplomatic pressure on small nations to lift the ban.
20) the Japanese are being recalcitrant in not bowing to international pressure.
21) politeness in the face atrocity is a form of complicity.

Part of it for me is that 'the Japanese' are totally full of s#*t when it comes stating their intentions. "Research", my a@$. If we let them have it their way there would be no whales left and the way they "catch" them is RIDICULOUSLY inhumane.

I notice you don't make a point yourself, other than saying "here's a list of fallicies".

"Since when is it OK to tell other countries what they can and cannot eat?"

Lets eat the panda, the white tiger, the albatross, the indian and african elephant.....screw it, let makes ivory legal....and elephant feet, gorilla paws...how about we harvest the barrier reef?. Who's to tell us we can't?

So whaling sustainable or not? Are the Japanese BS about that one too?

Cant we breed whales as like other animals?

StG, in every example you gave except for the GBR (which we do harvest), the bans in place can be justified from a sustainability perspective. The whaling ban was originally based on sustainability. It was to ensure that future generations could harvest whales. We are the ones that mislead the Japanese about our intentions. Or at least, we changed our mind after the fact. The IWC has converted from sustainability to animal welfare and tree hugging hippy carp. In doing so, it lost it's mandate. Japan will either hunt whales via the scientific loophole or reject the IWC completely and hunt whales outside of it's legal structure. You can't blame them for playing the same game we do. We as a nation are by far the biggest hypocrits in all of this. I'm sure if you actually spoke to the Japanese whalers about it the wouldn't tell you they are doing research, they would tell you to get f'ed.

Saviour, you can't generalise like that. Whether it is sustainabile depends on how well it is managed. In the future, it will come down to whether the IWC comes to it's senses and manages whaling, or cuts it's own balls off by pandering to the hippies. If the IWC goes with the hippes, whalers will never again join forces to manage whaling effort. Tuna fishermen will also avoid that dangerous course of action.

Currently, about 2500 whales are caught each year, and the number is on the rise. In all liklihood that amount is sustainable, but we can't afford to lose the IWC.

They are eating them! And you know it! Its all bull- s--t, and you all know it! Do you think everyone has their heads, stuck up their rectum! The world, still thinks, it has the right to do with what ever they like. NO,NO,NO,! My main message is! WAKE UP!
REM, the band, it has said it all! Its the end of the world as we know it. And I wonder why. What are you looking for? Is it a leader? Not even me has that quality. But someone has it!, and lets face it! Know one wants the job! We are all going to think together or we are going to die together.

Its always been your choice!

"They are eating them!

Of course. It would be wrong to kill them if they were just wasting them.

"The world, still thinks, it has the right to do with what ever they like. NO,NO,NO,! My main message is! WAKE UP!

When it comes to what we eat, we do have that right. You are deluded if you think you can take that right away. The Japanese will not roll over to our cultural imperialism. They have the moral high ground, not us. We just can't see it yet. We're too busy torturing pigs to put this issue into perspective.

I thank you for your reply. And your point is valid. Sustainability is what should be on our minds, not who is right and who is wrong.
It has allways been a case of 1,2,3 world people, trying to find away of thinking together. Cultural imperialism is fasist in its own ugly way, but the times will not change any time soon.
My main point is! POPULATION! As we grow, how long will it take befour humans eat everything on this planet.

In the time of the humans, we have caused the fastest extinction in the whole history of time, and yet, no-one see it.

The whale thing, is just another mistake, and how many more wrong decisions will we make befour we our self's become extinct.

You can trace just about any issue back to population, but you are missing a big part of that issue:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/population-sustainability.html#IPAT

Also, most issues require a proximate rather than ultimate solution. There is a limited use to blaming everything on population.

Plenty of people see the extinction thing - hence the term 'anthropocene'.

Food scarcity may not be a big issue any time soon, at least for rich countries. We are not far off getting fresh water from the sea. It is actually far cheaper than rainwater tanks which we are subsidising, perhaps even if you power the desal plants with wind turbines. Maybe in century it will be economically viable to use desalinated water for crop irrigation. Of course, the economics depends more on the demand side, as food demand is relatively insensitive to price. With greater understanding of nutrient flows (eg hydroponics) this could herald a vast increase in our ability to support ourselves, at least in terms of food. It is always the unforseen threats that bring you undone.

Thank "you" for the link. I enjoyed reading it greatly. I guess I have a genuine fear for the lives of my children. More meaning less for them.(population) What if my kids don't have the IQ that all of you have, then what!( drugs and crime!) Where will they go, what dream shall I present to them? These and many more questions plague my mind. Being a father now days is not easy,( but it should be!) and as population grows, the more losers there will be. Opportunity was still alive and well at the start of the eighties,( some may not agree) and with the pressure of advancement, I firmly beleve that dis functional and lost souls, will be our legacy of moving too fast.
The gap between Smarter and not so, and the richer and the not so, is way off the map. I guess humans haven't come as far as think. I just see disaster, or maybe I am panicing for nothing.

Jared Diamond uses a 'two horse race' analogy. The two horses being population and our technological means to support it. We can't predict which will win. All we know is that they both keep getting faster and faster, as the stakes get higher.

IQ and wealth won't protect you if things get bad. The world is so interconnected these days that big problems cannot be contained. Australia's wealth would disappear very quickly if the the rest of the world were plunged in chaos, trade dried up and we had to devote lots of resources to our military. We are all in the same boat together and the wealthy have the most to lose.

There are good and bad signs wherever you look. It's easy to become overly optimistic or pessimistic if you focuss too much on the good or bad news. Ultimately there is no point worrying about it if you aren't doing something about it. That is, there is no need to let it get you down. Just try to do something positive.

Like what! Things are breaking down, and I hope you all enjoy your stress related diseases. Depression is eating everyone alive!( young and old). It still comes back to the same theory! Put ten rats in a box, and they fight and kill one-another. But put two rats in the same box, and they breed and multiply.

Back to the point!

SAVE THE WHALES! Because we are not saving ourselves.

Wouldn't it be better to actually save ourselves? Saving the whales instead would be an irrational distraction. If depression is the biggest problem you can come up with, I think we are doing pretty well.

I don't think depression levels in Western society are really relevant to this discussion :P

Freediver is right, we have no right to tell the Japanese what they can or can not eat. But, the international community should be putting pressure on all countries to practice sustainable farming/harvesting/foresting/hunting (etc.). To me that means Japan (or any other country) should not be hunting/researching endangered whale species (or any other animal for that matter).

Am I right in saying that it would be easy to research the sustainability of whaling without killing them? Or has it already been proven to be sustainable/unsustainable?

A couple of questions:
What are the laws for fishing in international waters?
Where are the Japanese boats actually whaling? In international waters, or Australian Antarctic waters or elsewhere? The media never really gives these facts, they just get all hyped up in emotion.

It's to my understanding that the whaling being done is quite legal, and if that is the case there's not much that Australia can do about it, except complain through the IWC that it's unsustainable or inefficient/pointless research. It's also documented that the meat from the whales is put on to the market in Japan, which is part of the IWC treaty(/loophole) to ensure the hunted whales are not just thrown out once they have been researched. I'm not saying I like it.

In summary, I think the Japanese should be allowed to hunt whales in a legal sense, just within sustainable levels, and within waters where they are allowed to do so. Not under the false banner of research. But first, research must be done into the sustainability of whaling in all proposed whaling areas, and strict quotas should be adhered to and enforced. But that said, what good is one man's opinion :P

Sorry if that was a bit disjointed, and please feel free to inform me of anything I don't know. I don't pretend to know all there is to know about this subject.

"What are the laws for fishing in international waters

As far as I know, it is based on industry specific agreements. The IWC governs whaling. There are quotas for tuna catches among different countries. Whaling is the only one that has been managed well. Tuna is still overharvested and there are calls for a moratorium. Japan recently agreed to slash it's tuna quota as punishment for exceeding it.

"Where are the Japanese boats actually whaling? In international waters, or Australian Antarctic waters or elsewhere?

In international waters. Australia has claimed some of these waters as a whale sanctuary, but the claim is not recognised internationally.

"It's to my understanding that the whaling being done is quite legal, and if that is the case there's not much that Australia can do about it

There are some European countries that flout the IWC regulations and are technically whaling illegally. Japan is whaling legally. I think Europe harvests more whales than the Japanese.

Thankyou freediver, that clears a few things up for me :)

If that's the case then my summary holds.

Freediver. I guess your not acquainted with sarcasm? So I guess we just continue with the endless and pointless destruction of the earth. Hey! why not! We are ourselves, are only here for seventy or eighty years, so lets take it all! Sorry! more sarcasm just slipped out. But I do agree on one thing! Cultural imperialism is not the way to push a point. I wonder if understanding will work?

People will convince themselves of absolutely anything, as long as its in there favour.

I've seen sarcasm fail countless times online.

To-shay! funny old world. All the best!

While I agree that intensive farming is cruel and that other forms of animal cruelty in Australia should be stopped, that these things happen doesn't change the fact that whaling is wrong.

Is whaling acceptable when you consider that there is no way of finding out whether the whale is pregnant or has just given birth before killing it?

I assume that you also think that bull fighting in Spain is acceptable because it's a cultural thing and the meat of the tortured bull is given to the poor after the kill?

"While I agree that intensive farming is cruel and that other forms of animal cruelty in Australia should be stopped, that these things happen doesn't change the fact that whaling is wrong.

But why is it wrong? Sure it doesn't change whether it is wrong. But it does help people to put things into perspective and realise that it is just a form of cultural imperialsim.

"Is whaling acceptable when you consider that there is no way of finding out whether the whale is pregnant or has just given birth before killing it?

Yes. Just like Kutti pi is acceptable. Just like Kangaroo is acceptable. Just like veal is acceptable.

"I assume that you also think that bull fighting in Spain is acceptable because it's a cultural thing and the meat of the tortured bull is given to the poor after the kill?

There is a fundamental difference between bull fighting and whaling.

Whaling is wrong because Japan undermines international efforts to protect whales.

Japan is dishonest about their grounds for whaling. It’s obvious that they kill whales for profit- to sell the meat for consumption, not for scientific research.

When Australian scientists claimed that equally good scientific data can be collected with techniques that don’t involve the killing of whales, how do the Japanese justify ignoring this if their purpose for whaling was, indeed, merely scientific research?

"Whaling is wrong because Japan undermines international efforts to protect whales.

Circular argument.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/sustainability-party/why-allow-whaling.html#hollow-arguments

"It’s obvious that they kill whales for profit- to sell the meat for consumption, not for scientific research.

No it isn't. In fact, they have to subsidise the hunt. Even if profit were the motive, that still doesn't make it wrong.

"When Australian scientists claimed that equally good scientific data can be collected with techniques that don’t involve the killing of whales

You cannot demonstrate the capacity for a sustainable commercial hunt without killing whales.

Freediver, no pro-whaling argument matters to me; slaughtering whales is cruel and I don't support animal cruelty.
Whales are being harpooned to death which means pain and suffering and a slow death.
On the news today we watched a calf being killed this way. I find this very upsetting.

I don't condone the way dingoes or kangaroos are killed either.

At least our farm animals are being pre-stunned in our abattoirs to minimise the pain and suffering involving slaughter.
I oppose Halal and Kosha slaughtering methods- it's animal cruelty and a DISGRACE that this happens in Australia.
I don't eat meat from animals that come from intensive farms, I don't eat eggs that come from caged hens.

I do realise that the media is quite one-sided; the images about the killing of whales should be balanced by images of Australia's killing of dingoes, kangaroos... our intensive farming industry It's all cruel and all wrong and should be drummed into us that we do this to our animals.

Whaling is NOT OK just because Australia has animal cruelty issues as well.

About the alleged 'mother and calf' photo:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1168478179/208#208

I never said that the calf was related to the killed female adult whale. And I don't care whether they are related.

The calf was SOMEONE'S calf.

Perhaps it's even worse that they were not related- now there's a cow searching for her calf; and perhaps there's a calf without a mother.

Whalers don't know whether the females have a calf or not.
And they don't care.

Anyway, the harpooning of whales is a cruel slaughtering method, no matter whether the whales are bulls, cows or calves.

I suppose people who have no objection to the cruelty of the harpooning of whales also have nothing against the clubbing of seals.

Thanks for that video, PALE.

Whaling obviously is animal abuse and as cruel as clubbing baby seals to death and bull fighting.

What a wonderful world we live in, freediver, with all these animals suffering at the hand of human greed, entertainment and sport.

Queensland Senator Andrew Bartlett:

...“We have moral indignation being expressed by politicians of both major parties about the cruelty involved in Japan’s whaling program, yet we have turned a blind eye for decades to the horrendous and inhumane conditions livestock endure."...

http://www.liveexportshame.com/news2/index.php?topic=4101.0

I agree, all animal cruelty is abhorrent and we should oppose it regardless of the country or the culture involved rather than turn a blind eye to all this cruelty.

"The calf was SOMEONE'S calf.

So was the alleged 'mother'. It was probably 'someone's' cousin, best friend or fairy godmother too. It was a whale.

"I suppose people who have no objection to the cruelty of the harpooning of whales also have nothing against the clubbing of seals.

I think clubbing is a very effective way of killing an animal. It works a lot better than guns. The whole seal clubbing thing is also blown way out of proportion. It only gets the attention because there are such great photo shots - red blood on white ice etc. Another chance for the hypocrits to point the finger while chowing down on their big mac.

"What a wonderful world we live in, freediver, with all these animals suffering at the hand of human greed, entertainment and sport.

You left out food. Almost all animals serve no other purpose in life than to be food for other animals. It's the way the world is. You can't claim to be a fan of nature if you can't stomach that.

”It was probably 'someone's' cousin, best friend or fairy godmother too.”
You can joke about the plight of animals all you like, but it’s a fact that whale cows and their offspring bond. Disturbing that bond can have ecological and evolutionary implications for long term survival of whale populations.

“The whole seal clubbing thing is also blown way out of proportion.”
I don’t agree. If you have a look at this site you will see that, too.
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1523-1739.1988.tb00183.x

Some points:
* Seal hunt observers have documented numerous cases of injured, conscious seals stockpiled and suffering on the ice.
* The hooking of live and conscious seals in Canada’s commercial seal hunt has been recorded on numerous occasions.
* Canadian legislation has actually been moving backwards.
* Observations by groups such as IFAW and others are likely to represent “best practices.”
* Canada’s commercial seal hunt does not meet modern scientific standards of humane killing.

”You left out food. “
I agree that omnivores and carnivores will always kill for food, but as humans we need to make sure that the breeding, raising and killing of animals is done in the most humane way possible.
Clubbing baby seals and harpooning whales don’t fall under humane slaughtering methods.

It goes without saying that humans should not torture and kill animals for frivolous reasons i.e. greed sport and art.

“Almost all animals serve no other purpose in life than to be food for other animals.”
From an evolutionary POV, the purpose of humans and animals is no different- mainly to survive as a species.

"You can joke about the plight of animals all you like, but it’s a fact that whale cows and their offspring bond.

So what?

"Disturbing that bond can have ecological and evolutionary implications for long term survival of whale populations.

BS.

* Seal hunt observers have documented numerous cases of injured, conscious seals stockpiled and suffering on the ice.

Same with every other hunting technique. Not that these observers can be trusted. They probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a dead twitching animal and a live one, given their lack of experience in killing.

* Canadian legislation has actually been moving backwards.

If you face the right way, it is forwards.

* Observations by groups such as IFAW and others are likely to represent “best practices.”

According to whom? IFAW? Try thinking for yourself rather than copying and pasting any old rubbish.

"I agree that omnivores and carnivores will always kill for food, but as humans we need to make sure that the breeding, raising and killing of animals is done in the most humane way possible.

There is not a more humane way to harvest whales.

”Try thinking for yourself rather than copying and pasting any old rubbish.”
Pot…kettle…black…
YOU copied and pasted a whole list in your initial post off that Ozpolitic site, based this thread on their beliefs AND (unlike me) accept/repeat their opinion blindly.
So why are you telling me that I shouldn't copy anything? I think that the few points I copied from an article were ones you needed to see since you fail to understand that Canada ignores EFSA (European Food and Safety Authority) recommendations.

But I did forget to include this 2008 link; my excuses.
http://blog.stopthesealhunt.com/

”There is not a more humane way to harvest whales.”
Exactly!
Only barbaric methods are being used. And that's precisely why all whaling should cease until a more humane method is found.
Nations that want to kill whales have the duty to come up with acceptable ways to kill them.

I would be more inclined to accept whaling if the killing was done in a more humane way. The same goes for all other animals.

Being able to respect the lives of others including animals- isn’t that one of the things that is supposed to make us human?

(PS I may not be able to respond for a few days).

"YOU copied and pasted a whole list in your initial post off that Ozpolitic site, based this thread on their beliefs AND (unlike me) accept/repeat their opinion blindly.

I wrote the article on OzPolitic.

"So why are you telling me that I shouldn't copy anything?

I'm not. I'm saying you should think for yourself. You obviously didn't pass a critical eye over that stuff before you posted it.

"since you fail to understand that Canada ignores EFSA (European Food and Safety Authority) recommendations.

Again, so what? They are Canadians, not Europeans. Since when does the entire world need to obey European law? Think about what you are copying.

"Being able to respect the lives of others including animals- isn’t that one of the things that is supposed to make us human?

Respicting all life and denying your natural role in it are not the same thing.

Freediver I didn't realise that you wrote the info on that website; you have obviously done a lot of research on the matter, more than I have.

I'm just against the killing of animals if it's done in a cruel and barbaric way.
I think that this method of killing whales hasn't improved much at all over the years.

Do you know whether people are actually looking at new ways/innovations that can be developed so that the suffering can be shortened and the harvesting of whales will be done more humanely?

I find it hard to accept that in a technically and medically advanced age, no effort is being put into finding better ways of doing this. There should be pressure put on whaling nations to find a solution.

I'm sure plenty of people are thinking about it. They're just short on ideas. I'm not aware of any proposals or trials. Killing a wild animal that large is always going to be difficult and dangerous. The explosives probably help a bit. The only improvement I could think of would be a bigger gun, or more of them. Maybe a poison or drug could help also, if you could get one that didn't taint the meat.

There is no need to kill these wonderful animals especially in 'our waters'.
Perhaps using ammo is the answer but not at the whales the creeps from Japan who regally also round up dolphins and bash them to death.

Yes Ammo is an option and I hope one day someone with more money than me puts together an army of protectors of our most innocent- the animals.

You know all blood is red and it’s "their turn."

Blow the bastards out of the water that have the hide to insult us by saying its science.

Well let’s do some tests ourselves in the name of Science I say.

SHAME ON THEM and anybody who support either them or live exports or intensive farming.

I look forward to the day when somebody actually gets serious about the animals we share the earth with.

Who do we think we are= we are not superior we are just an arrogant race of another animals that has proven to be the most cruel of all.

They are called Humans and they are the ruination of the world.

I always get a laugh at the hypocrisy of animal welfare activists who openly promote murder. PALE, all predators are cruel. That's nature for you. You cannot sanitise it and by attempting to do so you will destroy it.

”…all predators are cruel.”
That’s true, freediver, but so what? People have hopefully evolved beyond merely acting as predators to survive.
Unlike most predators, human beings are aware and able to use alternative food sources.
Modern societies don't need to use cruel hunting methods to obtain our food and we don't need to torture animals in the name of science or religion.
Since whaling is extremely cruel and barbaric, and nobody’s life depends on eating whale meat I think that it should be stopped. I'm glad that other countries like Australia are speaking out against it.
And I don't mind if other countries have the sense to speak out against the animal abuse that happens in Australia, too.
The more voices, the better.

Animals don't care what part of the world help comes from, as long as someone speaks out. We are the world.

And why do we “need” to continue torturing animals for (pseudo) scientific reasons?
What makes this so-called research so significant that it justifies torturing whales?
We can assess the pain of other species and reason that it is immoral to inflict unnecessary pain upon them for frivolous reasons.

Luckily, in many countries, the attitudes of people towards animals are changing/have changed.
People with common sense and moral awareness can choose to stop the unnecessary abuse of animals.
If we want or need to eat meat, we should eat meat only of animals that have been bred, raised and killed in a humane way.

Killing whales for scientific reasons is just as immoral as torturing animals in scientific labs for research that is not needed.

"People have hopefully evolved beyond merely acting as predators to survive.

That is a misuse of the term 'evolve'. I don't think it is an improvement to try to deny our nature just because some have become uncomfortable with it. This is not an indication of an improved relationship with nature. It is a symtom of the disconnect from nature that has come from people paying others to do the dirty work for them in preparing their food. Not seeing how your food gets to your plate allows all sorts of hyprocrisy to creep in.

"Modern societies don't need to use cruel hunting methods to obtain our food

I would much prefer sustainable harvest of wild stocks to farming.

"Animals don't care what part of the world help comes from, as long as someone speaks out.

Anthropomorphism.

"And why do we “need” to continue torturing animals for (pseudo) scientific reasons?

Haven't you heard? It's about food, not science. However you do have to ahrvest to demonstrate that a harvest can be sustainable.