(Continued)

Also despite his alleged “conversion” to a particular Christian sect, Constantine immediately began the violent persecution of all the other competing sects.

Many of the references to Constantine's historical role are sweeping romaniticised generalisations but the detailed history is freely available if you care to look for it.

His successor Julian, tried to revert to paganism but was murdered 3 years later. Jovian then attempted to make Christianity the dominant religion by putting pagans under threat of death unless they converted. Hardly an auspicious beginning for a peaceful religion.

It was actually Theodosius who made it the official state religion in 395AD but only after mass persecution of non-Christians and the burning of many libraries and sacking of pagan temples.

Religions are successful and long-lasting if they are ruthless and inflexible in their dealings with non-believers, particularly at the beginning.

Since then we have also had the deliberate Christian persecution of other Christians such as those against the Arians, the Cathars (up to a million killed here alone), Eastern Orthodox Christians, Waldenses, the Medieval and Spanish Inquisitions, the Jesuits and so on - not to mention the Christian persecution of pagans and the occasional Crusade against Muslims. Of course it works in both directions and religious persecution still goes on between and within all groups.

While these were specifically religious conflicts (or disguised economic ones) I wouldn't blame something like the Holocaust on religion but it demonstrates what religion is capable of (or not capable of preventing).

Jack, because the church is the only institution I know of capable of convincing anyone that homosexuality is so abhorrent that the private, consensual acts of others need to be actively discouraged.

As far as the "highest creature" goes - there are many possible ways you could measure the success of various species, e.g. longevity of existence, physical resilience to various environments, total number of surviving individuals etc. etc. On very few of these do humans come out in front. There is no meaningful ladder of evolution - all species alive today are just as evolved as each other, and, in all likelihood, humanity will eventually make away for other species.

As members of Homo Sapiens, we value the things that make us human and grant us our success: intelligence, compassion, manual dexterity etc. To many other species, those attributes are worthless, and were they capable of making such a judgment may well note how physically weak we are, or how slowly we breed our offspring, or how desperately helpless our infants are, or how wasteful we are by constantly killing each other but leaving all that good meat.

palimpsest,

Just a few words on beliefs. I actually do have a belief…It is the belief that the combination of reason and our five senses accurately portrays reality better than any other way. Bertrand Russell has a very famous quote about this: “To save the world requires faith and courage: faith in reason, and courage to proclaim what reason shows to be true.”

That you consider nothing is known about psychosis etc is demonstrably false and one might as well state nothing is known about anything. Enough is understood concerning psychological disorders where variants from the ‘norm’ can be classified into groups. The Jerusalem Syndrome is real. The effects of indoctrination are real. Religious zealotry is real. Psychosis is real.

You may wish to classify me as being obsessive and ardent as it suits your purpose. However, you saying this does not make it so. When Atheists stand up to be counted, the opposition tries every method it can think of to quieten them. The most interesting factor here is that it is not what Atheists say which is challenged, but it generally revolves around the religious desperately protecting long-held and firmly planted prejudices.

This is recognisable by unanswered pertinent questions, linking Atheism with despotism, using the existence of a god axiomatically, wilful misunderstanding of the word belief, accusations of fundamentalism and obsessiveness, an unwillingness to face up to and discuss the actual harms of religious belief, the promotion of the falsity that Atheism is an empty and meaningless existence, fallacious assumptions that without a god in the picture humanity will collapse into a mire of selfish and unethical behaviour etc.

Atheists, first have to overcome all of this before rational discourse can begin. Sometimes, this does not happen though. It is a pain, but an expected one. But, despite the mentioned difficulties, Atheism is in steep ascendancy. People, in growing numbers, are recognising that which Douglas Adams encapsulated in the following quote: “Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too.”

David

I'm not sure I'd got as far as claiming atheism is in "steep ascendancy". The trend away from religious belief probably started with the Enlightment, and has been mostly steady ever since.

Even the rise of Fundamentalism in the U.S. hasn't bucked this trend - Fundamentalists love to quote how many new members to their churches sign up every year, but neglect to mention how many leave after a year or so. Non-fundamentalist churches are generally under no such illusion about the gradual loss of their followings. Since 1944, belief in God among Americans has gradually dropped from about 95% to less than 70%. And in the rest of the developed world, it hovers between 20 and 50%. The last real bastion of religious belief is still the developing world, where levels of education are hopelessly inadequate.

It's because this trend is occurring peacefully and inevitably anyway that I don't see much point in "Atheist evangelism", even though I've read some very impassioned and inspiring defences of the need for it.

Dearest David,

"Hallelujah! I've found God! And David is His name!" (Just Kidding)...

I'm getting tired with all this arguing and I no longer see the point to continue. I've stated my feelings as best as I could. No amount of argument will change the status quo.

Dearest David,

I forgot to add that the list of injustices that you mentioned in your recent post to me - was far too short...

If you'd read some of my posts on other threads you'd know more about me, and you'd realize what I'm for or against ... And by the way my garden has the most beautiful faeries in it, but you have to believe - to see them (smile).

Cheers.