Jack the Lad,

Is the sgean dhu a symbol of a Scots religious tradition? Or part of any authentic tradition?

And how about the kilt?

When you say, "So much for respect of culture - it's a one-way street," Ye may have said more truth than ye ken, Jack.

The kilt was in fact invented by an English industrialist from Lancashire, Thomas Rawlinson, in the early 18th Century. He set out to alter the existing dress of highlanders to make it convenient for workmen.

Kilts were therefore a product of the industrial revolution to bring the highlanders out of the heather and into the factory.

The lowlanders, by far the large majority of Scots, regarded highland dress as a barbaric form of clothing. Many of the clan tartans that Scots people are so proud of because they are reckonend to be 'traditional' were devised during the Victorian period by enterprising tailors who saw a market in them.

See 'The Invention of Tradition' by Eric Hobsbawm and Terence Ranger and the BBC Reith lectures by Prof Anthony Giddens (1999).

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/events/reith_99/week3/week3.htm)

So the English created the Scottish national dress and imposed it on them. That was very noble of the English, eh? Just as noble as the American GM Corporation which let Australians think the Holden was an Australian product.

I think I'll start a new church tomorrow.

The Church of the Saved Innocents.

No woman can use contraception (33% of women already don't, so not too much of a stretch there).

A foetus *must* be aborted if requested by a priest.

Women will be authorised to carry big knives, to defend themselves lest an infidel attempt to "force" them to give birth.

The sacrificial foetuses will be cooked and served at Sunday dinner.
"Praise God for this bountiful meal of bunches of cells!"

If any woman dies during an abortion, it's the work of the Devil.
Her body must be chopped and sliced by the other women with their large knives, then fed to pigs, to free her soul from the Devil's clutches, so she can return to God.

Any children that are born will be called "The Wronged Ones", for surely it would have been better had they been aborted, and never suffered the sorrows of earthly existence.

The children will be required to wear a bleeding foetus symbol at *all* times (even at school), to remind them of the unfortunateness of their existence.

If anybody objects, I'll cry "Discrimination! Oppression!" and sue them for vilification.

I'll also get a tax exemption (so more money to pay our in-house doctor-priests).

Praise the Lord!

Frank, the sgian dhu (black knife - not a pigeon on Alpine slopes) has been part of Highland dress as long as the kilt. It is cultural, not religious.
The kilt in its modern form (fèileadh beag) is, as you wrote, a modification on Highland garb, originally for workers. It was not an 'invention' of an industrialist but, as I wrote, a modification. The traditional Highland garb (Féileadh Mòr)was a long plaid (five feet wide by seven yards long) which was wrapped around in a similar manner to the Roman toga. Could it be that ancient Scots and Picts saw Romans dressed in togas at the various forts along Hadrian's and the Antonine Wall?
The lowlanders had long been influenced by contact with the south and therefore tended to dress like the English.
On another note, the earliest tartan found was from the 3rd Century AD, long before the English even existed.
So while you can say that a Sassenach developed the fèileadh beag, probably copying the tailored kilt, which appeared around 1692, it's a bit much to suggest that the English imposed its wearing. On the contrary, they banned it after Culloden.

Jack the Lad,

I've shown you my sources. Will ye now show me thine?

FRANK... well I've seen blokes wiggle...but you? :) the next time they have a vacancy...I'll nominate you for the part.

Mate.. your mental gymnastics about 'who invented the kilt'... underlines how stupid this whole idea about 'cultural traditions' is in this context..

IT DOESN'T MATTER who invented this or that.. what DOES matter is:

Is this... my tradition? yes...or no. There is no 'time criteria' for something to be a genuine tradition..in fact.. we could start a new religion tomorrow...and add this or that weapon to our 'religious obligations'.. that is how beyond rediculous it is to try to defend Sikhs and their Kirpans.

How brilliant do you have to be to 'get' the following:

1/ Sikhs can carry Kirpans to school
2/ Sikhs can carry Kirpans in King street at 11.00pm at night.
3/ A Sikh attacked in King Street at 11.30pm , by 3 blokes... will of course NEVER use 'whatever he has' to defend himself... he especially wont' use the one thing likely to give him an edge eh ?

Mate.. in the moron stakes you are wayyyy out in front. (I'm referring to the dictionary meaning here :)

What about:

1/ Sikhs can carry Kirpans for religious reasons.
2/ Sikhs who are told 'you can't carry that here' due to 'policy' will sue for religious discrimination.(at AIRPORTS)
3/ Terrorists will quickly adopt Sikh dress and ... you fill in the gaps.

ROBERT.. *exactly* 100% tick for your post.
FRANK D-
All who agree with me "A+" :)

BOAZ_David

You just don't get it, do you? For a while I thought you were a bit of a shrewdy, but I was sadly mistaken. I've decided you just don't get it. And probably never will. Your mind is shut firmly in the empty position.

So when you can tell us all how many incidents of violence with kirpans have been committed since 1990 I think I'll leave you to play in the multicultural playpen while I get on with more productive things.

Watch out for Sikhs with daggers under their belt.

Happy Saturnalia!