Philo,

If you wouldn't mind.

Westy,

Good to see you again. I haven't enjoyed your loveably eccentric presence for some time. It certainly adds a spice to these chats.

Jack the Lad,

If your goal is truth then moving uncertain goal posts can be desirable. Certainly there are issues about the existence of God, the divinity of Jesus Christ and ethical standards that cannot be limited (/moved) without being lost but our undertanding of the physical universe is growing and that is positive. The Bible just doesn't go into detail on that. That is why we have science.

"I can't answer how the Big Bang (if it occurred) came about. It is only a theory but one that many scientists can promote in understandable terms. When it comes to religion, we are expected to accept the concepts on faith."

Absolutely correct. Scientists are just people with current theories. Jesus came to earth, died, and rose from the dead after claiming to be the Son of God. It makes more sense to have faith in His teachings than scientists' current theories. That is not to say that the current theories have no value.

"I don't understand your idea that science is a 'medievally sourced artifact of the Christian religion'. The ancient Greeks and Chinese were involved in scientific studies long before the Christian era."

A number of peoples had all the necessary ingredients to commence science but Christians kicked it off as it was consistent with their theology.

If the conflict was caused by the religion of the Serbs and Croats not the Serbs desire to claim all territory and a Croat desire to be separate then could you go into more detail? How did the religious conflict commence?

"As an athiest, I can 'appreciate the value of truth, and the value of life'."

I'm happy to suggest that your Christianish background instilled these truths within you. Notwithstanding your quip purely atheist societies to date have had scant regard for the value of life.

Philo and Foxy, I think that I should be the judge of what I do or don't believe. I am certainly not in denial nor am I thinking of becoming a Buddhist no matter how similar their values may be.

Much of human history has been dominated by bloody wars, culminating in the Great Brothers War that stretched across most of the last century. Would a God that supposedly loved his creations have allowed that with all the misery and agony that it entailed? I don't see a stigma attached to religion yet I believe that Philo sees such a stigma attached to atheism to the extent that he seems to be in denial of its existence.

mjpb, 'Scientists are just people with current theories. Jesus came to earth, died, and rose from the dead after claiming to be the Son of God'. I see that as theory also. The only 'proof' is of writings from 2000 years ago.
How about Pythagoras as an example of pre-Christian scientists?

When the South Slavs were converted to Christianity, the split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches had not occurred. After the Schism, each church influenced one group or the other. While being of the same ethnic stock, by then Serbs and Croats were living as individual proto-nations (just like Norway, Sweden and Denmark or Scots and Irish), but the Serbs came into the Orthodox sphere of influence while the Croats came under Rome. To further confuse that region, Bosnians are also of the same ethnicity but were converted to Islam after the Ottoman invasion.

I'm not sure if there is such a thing as a purely athiest society. Even in Communist countries, religion still exists as is obvious by the rapid rise of the Russian Church after the 'collapse'. I still maintain that religion is not the basis of my values. When I gave up any religious beliefs, I kept the same values as before from a humanist view.

Pericles, It is good to see you believe the conclusion the 2000 year old text of the Bible gives to the Earth. Obviously you believe the Bible gives the answer to the finality with certanty of our planet. At least I know it will not be tonight and I can place that in the events the Bible also outlines of the end of this planet.

You said, "Non-religious people are comfortable in the knowledge that the answers will not be available to us any time soon, possibly even not before this tiny insignificant planet of our incinerates.

Religion provides solace for people who need answers, or at least a level of certainty and security to get them through the night. Not everybody needs it, not everybody uses it.

To pretend that merely thinking about life beyond what we can see and touch renders us all somehow "religious" is simply laughable."

I hope you are still laughing. Your system of belief is that there is no room for belief. One's immagination is merely a fantacy unfortunately for you yours has been coloured by Christian escatology.

jack,
Your former religion is still intact. The set of beliefs that formerly set your values and upon which you now live your life remains. What changed is your theistic view.

For me there one who is ideal. Whose character is made in the image of perfection to whom I admire - aspire as the perfect man - our God. For me there is an example to aspire too whose character is perfect, whose actions are pure, whose wisdom is inspirational. That holiness is my God. His love, justice and mercy is perfect.

Philo, it is particularly sad that you find it necessary to twist the meaning of everyone's posts in order to make some point or other. It is a sign of insecurity, and that is not a very good look.

>>Obviously you believe the Bible gives the answer to the finality with certanty of our planet. <<

Contrary to your supposition, I have absolutely no idea what "answer" the Bible gives to the end of our planet. What I do know is that scientists can model the gradual process by which the earth will experience "heat death", first boiling off the oceans in about 1.1 billion years.

I would nevertheless be interested to hear your Biblically-inspired version, so that we can compare the two.

>>Your system of belief is that there is no room for belief. One's immagination is merely a fantacy unfortunately for you yours has been coloured by Christian escatology<<

Absolute rot. You are trying here to equate belief with imagination and fantasy, which is your construction, not mine.

Belief in the "spiritual" - which is code for things that you cannot prove through science - plays a massive part in the lives of vast numbers people. I neither denigrate this or dismiss it, it exists today, and has been a part of the evolution process for millennia.

The fact that I choose not to believe in the peculiar form of spirituality called religion does not indicate that I don't acknowledge its existence, nor that I see there is no room for it.

Incidentally, you might care to explain how you reach the conclusion that my imagination has been "has been coloured by Christian escatology [sic]" In the context of your post, it doesn't make a great deal of sense.

Jack the Lad,

"How about Pythagoras as an example of pre-Christian scientists?"

I believe the word science gets applied too broadly to the activities of ancient Greeks. Their empiricism lacked theory and their abstract assertions were removed from observation. Brilliance may have been displayed but real science was not.

The co-author of Principia Mathematica Alfred Whitehead noted that medievalism contributed to the formation of the scientific movement due to the medieval insistence on God's rationality. "Every detail was supervised and ordered: the search into nature could only result in the vidication of the faith in rationality". This attitude was still clear in the sixteenth century when Descartes supported his search for natural law with the assertion that laws must exist. God "acts in a manner as constant and immutable as possible" with the infrequent exception of miracles.

"When the South Slavs were converted to Christianity..."

But what caused the wars?

"I'm not sure if there is such a thing as a purely athiest society."

You are probably correct but in communist countries where they had a habit of slaughtering Christians it would tend to function as such.

Did you know that about the 14.5 million Ukrainian Orthodox Christians were butchered by Communists as part of an estimated 30 to 40 million people who the commissars slaughtered in the Soviet Union? Most of those killed were believed to be Christians.

"I still maintain that religion is not the basis of my values."

I obviously can't argue that too strenuously but someone who would argue strenuously on things that they shouldn't is desperately snooping around in here for ammunition. If you visit that other forum you will see what I mean. Just so you know.