Philo, I don't know about being indoctrinated into atheism. I found atheism to be the best path in life when I rejected all religion and followed logic instead. I didn't need a crutch to get through life.

How is atheism harmful? The truth makes you free.

Jack it sounds like you and West have a real proplem and are fighting a lost cause. Both Prime Minister Howard and Prime Minister Rudd have religious convictions. West's Politics actually identifies his religious convictions. Both Politics and Religion are based in opinions and values of conviction. West is on a mission to indoctrinate with atheism.

Jack what you abandoned I suggest was not a true discovery of God.

Goodness, Philo! - 'both politics and religion are based in opinions and values of conviction'?
You write as though you have zero awareness of the difference between dealing with the real world and dealing with one thrust upon us by our forebears and their - yes, it can't be gainsaid - superstitions.
I'm sure you do realise the difference, so you should probably not try to make a philosophical point out of so spurious an argument.

Philo, again I must clarify that no-one indoctrinated me into atheism. It was an educated decision based on my own life experience and observations. I put scientific discoveries and theories (evolution etc) ahead of superstition and handed-down stories.

How do you see this as a problem? Or a lost cause?

Religion has been one of the major causes of conflict for most of recorded history.

As for Howard and Rudd having 'religious convictions', why should that make any difference to my beliefs? Not all politicians seem to have to bare their holiness to us. Funny how the ones that do so come out at election time.

Politics includes laws on human behaviour and their application and enforcement in a society. The constitution of that society will determine how they will live together in anarchy, or for harmony, justice and mercy or some other value system. That society will be based upon value judgments on what is suitable behaviours.

For instance: On what occasions if any is the death penalty applied?
When one steals land?
When one steals property?
When one steals someone else's wife?
When one attempts to changes a tribal opinion?
When one defects to another tribe?
When one plans the overthrow of government or rules of that society?
When one murders another in that society?
When one plots with a neighbouring tribe?
There are no rules and killing is normal behaviour?
The death penalty is never applied under any circumstance?

In all these cases they are based upon a value system. Religion is the value system upon which a society functions. In the above example these are opinions or a set of values about an offending human life [if considered offending].

Jack,
Upon what scientific evidence did you conclude there is no God? God is not formed by chemistry. God stands outside any formed matter, time and space. God is spirit revealed in character, attitudes, behaviours, wisdom, insight, primarily in the history [HIS STORY] of human behaviour.

You tell me what behaviours determine your admiral values or offend your judgments and I will tell you what religion you are.

Philo, existence of God is illogical. Who made God? Why? How? When?
Where is he?

As for your last part, what are you trying to prove? I have no religion. Atheism is not a religion, it is an absence of religion.

Here's your scientific evidence - the religious are continuously moving the goalposts. They refused to believe the world was a sphere for centuries, then accepted it as fact. Then God was floating above the Earth until we had space travel. Now the religious are grudgingly partly accepting the theory of evoulution. What will the next step be..God used evolution to create man?