We may have lost Parliament but I sincerely believe that we will never lose the Senate over the next three years. Work Choice will remain you can bet on it. The minor parties and Independants will surely support us. We have a far greater formidable team with Brendan at the helm than the Social Democrats have. All of the laws in work Choice will remain intact until the next General Election and for Sharon Burrows to put that orange booklet into the receptacle was far too hasty as it will not be abolished during the life of this present Government you only have to look at the numbers in the Senate.

so very true, julie!

i myself am in frequent conversation with our gracious queen, and she assures me she is working behind the scenes to ameliorate the effects of this shocking (and suspicious) socialist victory.

if we both kneel beside our beds before sleeping, and pray for our good queen bess, she will protect us, with a bit of help from those glorious rearguard angels in the senate. so, courage! brave one, and grit your teeth when the socialist huns become outrageous.

Anyone claiming that the Greens, Family First and Nick Xenophon will support WorkChoices is deluding themselves, or is being a troll. Hell, it seems half the Liberal party don't even support it anymore. It was a not unreasonable idea, very poorly put together that has resulted in more red-tape for businesses, and a number of employers apparently forgetting the lessons of the 20th century - you don't get productivity and competitiveness by exploiting workers; you get unhappy workers who join and form unions to protest at unreasonable demands.

Workchoices was one of the major issues of this election. And the Libs lost by a landslide. Wouldn't you think that they would drop their pursuit of those exploitive goals. Don't they realize Howard's gone - they don't have to be frightened to express their own opinions anymore. I mean look at how vocal - Costello is now. Before, he was to scared to even whisper - 'Republic.'

And as for Brendan Nelson and Julie Bishop - hopefully they won't last too long. What's new about them and their thinking? Everytime Nelson appears on the TV - there's a framed photo of Howard in the background.

Great idea Julie (he says not entirely honestly), then Labor can blame the libs for them not being able to "fix" workchoices. As things fall to bits it will because the libs are blocking reform. A great way to hand both houses to labor - or the senate to the minor parties.

Let labor implement the policies they took to the electorate. Speak against changes which you think are damaging to australia but if they are changes pretty much in the same form that were put to the electorate let them pass.

Feel free to block legislation which you disagree with and which was not put to the electorate but I suspect that attempts to block what was put to the electorate will cost us all dearly.

Accept that while you may believe in workchoices (and I think that most of the opposition to it was based on a dishonest union campaign) you lost the battle for it in the electorate. You were outmanouvered by the unions and labor.

Clinging to it will just convince people that the libs need even less say.

R0bert

Ah, the Liberals lost control of the Senate. Given that they'll need to rely on the Greens, I think your cunning plan is flawed.

Also, who are the "Social Democrats"?

I owe you a great big thank you Julie, here it is do you understand you have lost the senate?
That your post overlooks the mandate Labor has? do you understand your party dare not ignore that mandate? and while it will winge it will pass the new labour laws?
I suspect you will find some support from within the shrunken few left in the house on your side.
But those intent on rebuilding will hope you remain silent.
However reality break, not for another 25 years at least under our system will you control the senate if ever.
Labor two will never control it in that time or maybe ever.
And Julie if your side of the house ever follows your path it may take even more time to return to power.
Understand the importance of such a defeat, such a turn around from landslide victory to even greater, much greater defeat ,in one term.
Dream if you must but the darkest days of your party are now.
The short term future? worse.
Serve your party best by understanding your pain is best kept locked away it only adds to my joy and your party's time in the wilderness
So thanks!~ my kindest regards, you remind me why we had to remove your mob.

I have no idea who the "Social Democrats" are, but "Julie Vickers" is definitely a troll. I recommend withholding food and oxygen.

The saddest thing about Julie's post is this 'WE'....may..etc

Julie... knock knock....When it comes to government, it should not be about 'us/them' in the sense you mean it.

It seems you feel (from the tone of your post) that 'workchoices' is something which benefits the 'we' in your post. When it SHOULD be about work place justice on both ends of the spectrum Employer/Employee and all that in a framework of true national interest.

But hey.. for that to happen, people would need to be living selfLESS lives, rather than selfISH....and perhaps a bit of 'repentance' might not go astray. No..I'm wrong.. A LOT of repentance is needed.
The left.. needs to repent from '"Nowwwww we have the P-O-W-E-R..we'll show those 'Bosses' who really runs the show" and the Right needs to repent from "AAah.. now that (or 'if') we run the show we can keep the workers under control and enhance our wealth".

So, Julie, and others.. why not look to Jesus. Even those close to him said "Oh Lord.. let us sit at your right and left hand in glory"

So there is human nature. "ME....Me....and more of... ME"
Until people are renewed at the heart/spirit level, it will always be 'them/us'... and winning politicians will continue to make post victory speeches about "We intend to govern for the WHOLE country" which they always forget 5 minutes later.

Boazy: "... why not look to Jesus"

I don't know which is worse, the prattling of an insufferable godbother or the tripe of an obvious troll.

CJ.

It's the godbotherer. Way worse.

This has to be about the dodgiest assessment of the political climate I've ever seen.

And I've been known to read pieces by Dennis Shanahan...

Now BOAZ DAVID this time you have lost it God bothering or not your post is rubbish, the left? left man?
Others heap it on me because we are too far to the right but crimson left?
If your God existed I like to think he would throw you out with those money lenders and just maybe be from the left.
To outdo Julie Vickers was no easy task you won by about the same margin my lefty mates did last weekend ,miles and miles Comrade!

Dear RObert,

Beautifully put, as usual. I'm hoping that Brendan Nelson will have the good sense to persuade his colleagues not to block Labor's incentives in the Senate. Allow Labor to keep its promises - and do it for the good of the country.

Foxy hi and have no fear reality will hit between now and the first sitting in February.
The last thing the opposition wants is both houses dissolved and a full election.
While here we find some who do not understand the depth and width of the defeat, even Nelson is not that lost.

Poor Julie Vickers
Was wetting her knickers;
But now she rejoices
For saving WorkChoices
The will of the people
Hits the last steeple.
All's well in the realm
Lord Nelson's at helm.

The future of WorkChoices?

Former workplace relations minister Joe Hockey has described WorkChoices as "dead" (ABC News Online Posted Wed Nov 28, 2007).

Mr Hockey commented, "As I said yesterday and I've said since election day, WorkChoices is dead, and there is an overwhelming mandate for the Labor Party's policy of tearing up WorkChoices."

"We will accept that. I think there are a number of people in the Liberal Party that grieve for the fact, [who say] that there will be significant job losses, and I think that they're right. The problem with WorkChoices was we just went too deep, it was a mistake," he added.

"...We should never have got rid of the old 'no disadvantage' test in the original package."

Any Coalition moves in the Senate to block the new Government's IR reforms will be their kiss of death at the next election. The ALP would be returned in the House of Representatives and with a majority in the Senate.

Where would the born-to-rule Liberals be then?

BOAZ_David, You have got the right idea for Julie here.
I began life with a cry, ‘whah whah, and ‘wee wee’d my pants’ then as I grew it became Me, me, then combine the two, like the cat, ‘me-ouw,’ not until later did I learn,that cooperation does not work until my me becomes Our. Word games? As you grow and learn, the ME becomes OUR, Otherwise you never Mature. You stay on milk all your life, and cry, BAH, BAH.

Foxy, I've been thinking about this some more. It occurs to me that the coalition made their plans for the GST very clear to the electorate in an election but were unable to get it past the senate in it's intended form. I don't recall any moral outrage from the left at labor trying to block a policy that the government had taken to the electorate.

On the other hand the coalition later gained control of the senate and the democrats are not travelling very well (some would say dead). I doubt that moral outrage over not passing the GST was the cause of either (although it put a big hole in the democrates talk of keeping the bastards honest).

Ethically I don't think that this is clear cut, politically it would seem suicidal to cling to workchoices at this point in time. Let labor ditch it and if the unemployment rate spirals out of control.

R0bert

RObert your post is spot on it is true that we blocked GST in the senate.
It is also true that we wanted it first, and that we won an election because of it.
Workchoices how ever is a far different thing, I truly honestly doubt some from your side of politics understand it at all.
No debating tool, I think John Howard did not completely understand its impacts.
I think he had targets in mind and openly wanted to stop union funding of the ALP how? kill unions.
Why is it ok for farmers federation to fund his party?
100 Such questions but in truth no conservative party in this country will introduce such as workchoices in the next 50 years.
My wish is that our mandate be ignored! that both houses be dissolved .
That voters get a chance to remind conservatives this election was about workchoices too, and that right wing Medea polls held only yesterday are saying Rudd must fix it first.
32% say workchoices first less than 20 environment, 28%education.
The first victims of workchoices had been non unionists kids and mums.
I fear an Australia that requires such as those to suffer in the name of world trade, to never own a home , to not get a foot on the ladder truly I do hope the unfairness of workchoices was based on not understanding it.
A union plot? ask Joe Hocky, his remarks when not in public are more telling than you would believe.
No union plot, a union victory over a miss used and dreadful crime against low income workers, and a destroyed government in historical shattered defeat

The Facts on Brendan Nelson
Brendan Nelson is out of touch with working families on workplace laws
The Liberals' extreme and unfair WorkChoices laws pushed the balance in the workplace against working families.

WorkChoices laws have allowed a cut to overtime, penalty rates, holiday pay and other conditions.

Brendan Nelson was a big supporter of the laws - he voted 20 times to ensure the laws were introduced.

On the Sunday program on 25 March 2007 while discussing WorkChoices with reporter Laurie Oakes, Brendan Nelson, said ;

"Well, firstly the Work Choices legislation is about Australia's future......."
"So it's extremely important for the average, everyday Australian that likes a bit of balance in this country, to make absolutely sure that the Howard Government is returned at the end of the year and, we, of course, will have a forward agenda further developed to present to the people by the time we go to the polls."

This is yet another example of where the Liberals appear to signalled an intention to go further with WorkChoices.
In a speech to the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University on 11 December 2006, well before the Liberal's softened their WorkChoices laws by introducing the so described Fairness Test, Brendan Nelson said,

"Through reforms to workplace relations, we have made it easier for employers and employees to step outside a combative union versus employer dichotomy and a one size fits all award system, to negotiate the arrangements that best suit them."

Brendan Nelson made the above comments in full knowledge that in May 2006 Government statistics showed that their centrepiece of the WorkChoices laws, Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs), had cut:

at least one ‘protected award condition’ in 100% of AWAs
penalty rates in 63% of AWAs
shiftwork loadings from 52% of AWAs
overtime loadings from 51% of AWAs
annual leave loading from 64% of AWAs
allowances from 48% of AWAs
public holiday pay from 46% of AWAs
rest breaks from 40% of AWAs
any wage rises in 22% of AWAs - some for 5 yearsrnment.

We are an extremely formidable team we must hold firm with work choice. We still hold the Senate unfair dismissal is fair Multi Nationals do stil have to have the right to contract individuals for them to negotiate with individuals that is their perogative freedom for the individual. Small business is a different issue all the more reason to keep those tresspass laws intact. We have worksafe to monitor rights for those in the workplace making union reps redundant. The Greens can never be counted on to support Labor after all maverick ex Labor MP wife of Kevin Reynolds will have the support of the Greens under the guise of due process. Greens, Liberals, Nationals coalition in Western Australia.

Julie you indeed are a troll you could not be anything but, the truth is the ashes of conservative Australia are for all to see.
WA did not flock to Liberalism, it may well be they ran as fast as they could away from one brand of unionism.
A brand that seems to think you have to be fat, loud mouthed , maybe extreme left, and have an IQ lower than some house hold pets.
Ever thought of becoming a WA union official Julie?
Should the house hold pet leave home in some union homes in WA the average IQ would drop 50 points.
Labor , as it has throughout its history is hampered by sections who have no pride in themselves, our extremist union Wil Robinson's , lost in space.
We however will rarely see the greens vote with the wreckage of conservative government.

You're right Julie. Somebody needs to stand up for the powerless multinationals.

Ms Vickers

Every serious political analyst in the nation and almost all Liberal MPs agree that WorkChoices was the one issue above all others that tipped the people against the Coalition Government. Even John Howard realised he had gone too far by belatedly introducing changes to WorkChoices and insisting that the word 'WorkChoices' be dropped from Government documentation and within the Public Service.

If I were a Labor strategist, I'd relish the thought of the Coalition blocking Labor reforms to WorkChoices in the Senate. It would be a significant boost to the ALP at the next election whether that be a general election or a Double Dissolution.

Maybe you are really an ALP member incognito playing mind games with the Coalition?

The title says it all "we still hold the senate". What makes conservative trolls think they have the right to control the upper house. Its not the House of Lords you know and even Victoria stopped appointing its upper house and even runs "elections" for the upper house.

I think the first thing Rudd should do on July 1 is abolish the senate's ability to refuse supply.

"Government by the people, in the people's house" -GW

Abolish the Senate!

I have been grateful we have a senate often as things have been stalled there that would have passed .
But while some will fight to keep it did Australia vote so that one independent could hold the country to ransom?
Was it our will that 5 green senators have sway far beyond the total number of voters they attract?
Yes in the interests of both sides of politics get rid of the senate.
But know the strangest thing, those who represent the three other groups, 2 independents and the greens will say it is undemocratic.
One vote one value would be a better way in the lower House to, if the outcome is voters wishes are filled it must be ok.

Why shouldn't people who vote Green have some representation in Parliament. The problem is not the 5 Green senators, it's the rump of Liberal senators that survive from the previous Parliament.

Where does the idea that a minority party (or independant) holding the balance of power is undemocratic come from?

To have that balance of power they need to vote with about half of the rest of the senate. The greens have no chance of blocking or passing legislation that is not supported by most of the senators from one of the major parties.

They have no more power than any other senator, maybe just a bit more room to move as they don't need to maintain solidarity with a large party in which their voice may not count for much.

Any other senator or group of senators can exercise the same power if they are willing to go against the wishes of their party.

Any power the minors have really comes from the ability to seek concessions from a major party in exchange for giving concessions.

R0bert

So, shall "we" agree to an abolishing of of the Senate's ability to refuse supply to the House?

"Government by the people. In the people's house' -GW

OR
Should Rudd have a Referendum to abolish the Senate altogether & forever and use millions/billions of $ in tax-payers money in advertising to support such a proposal?

RObert by mid term I will ask you that question.
Fact is all party's are pressured into passing things in return for support from minor party's.
Look at the now dead forever Democrats and GST , another poster asks why should the greens not have representation too, hard but why should 5 seats be able to have so much power?
GST was not an evil thing while it hurt the Democrats it was good for the country and both sides had wanted it.
senate will look like this 37 coalition, 32 ALP 5 Greens 1 SA independent 1 Family first.
ALP must have the greens to pass legislation, plus both others.
Combine the vote of coalition and Labor, tell that number very high 80% they should not be concerned,
by mid term the greens may block anything at times combining with both sides against the other in turn.

I thought I would revisit the thread before it drifts away.
What a change in Australian politics! even just in the time this thread has been alive.
The thread or some contributions highlight the very real problems for the short to medium future of conservative Australia.
Remember the threads in the months leading up to the election?
Strong belief Australia would not fall for? Kevin Rudd and Labor?
That no talent existed in Labors team?
Just think about that single statement, no talent? Future Prime Minister Bill Shorten is not yet a minister!
Yet he will be , both a minister and Prime Minister he may have to wait 15 years for the second to come about.
Fears about IR reform, true this time reform, me too ism ,surely no longer seen as a problem?
We are hearing the very beginning of a debate about John Howard and the negative impacts on his party nationally.
A storm heard in the distance yet growing to soon cast names and reputations high on the beach.
And it clearly looks like many conservatives still do not understand the reasons for or impact of the result of the election.
Do you want to know the impacts?
loss of government federally for nothing less than 6 years.
Positive side? death of, it will take time, Howard's NSW Liberal right, after that?
Slow but steady rebuilding of conservative party's around Australia.
To me a committed ALP member the saddest thing is my state.
My diabolic NSW government is assured still of a real chance of wining by default the next election.
Unless the NSW right lets Liberal Branch's breath it will be no contest.

Dear Julie
The Liberal Party did not win Western Australia the Liberal Party were a lifeless rabble during the six weeks leading up to the Election. No the Conservative Media won it for the Liberals the Sunday Times and the West Australian that is why the Distributors were selling those Newspapers for only a dollar each delivered. It brainwashed the electorate with propaganda that was never ever correct. These newspapers were relentless smearing Alan Carpenter, Jim McGinty, Julia Gillard, Greg Combet and Sharon Burrows by the time election day had arrived Trade Unionism was stygmitised as evil.
The Electorate did not spare a thought for Bernie Banton and everything that this great hero stood for. Non thinking politically niave buffoons were repeatedly quoting Union Bosses when that is just not the case. All Unions are membership driven. Belly quoted Bill Shorten as a future Labor Leader I hope not he is privately for Nuclear Power.