Foxy, I was wondering about your motives in posting this question. Is is that Malcolm Turnbull, soon-to-be leader of the opposition, and member for Wentworth has promised his constituency that “he would always support gay marriage and all pro gay anti-discrimination including in the Church”, while the new Prime Minister of Australia, has said he will not support same-sex unions?

I’m wondering why you think it necessary to fly the flag on behalf of the very few gay men and women who seek to settle down together in a union resembling marriage. In the Netherlands where such unions have been legal since 2001, most choose not to marry. Of those that do, the average length of a relationship between two men is 1.5 years. In addition, a study (published in AIDS magazine) found that they have eight other ‘partners’ each year.

In Australia, approx. 1.6% of adult men and 0.8% of women consider themselves homosexual. Same sex couples make up 0.46% of all couples in Australia (19,594 couples, 2001 census), compared to over 8 million male/female relationships of which 12% were de facto.

The gay lobby is a powerful force here. Not a minority. It has representatives from every walk of life, right up to High Court judges. It appears that they are determined to have their way regardless of what you and I believe Foxy. I don’t agree that this is a question of civil liberties for minorities. In fact, given the statistics above, this power vested in the hands of a few, is a distortion of civil liberties, and an infringement on other’s beliefs....

....Why is it so hard for non-believers to accept that every gain for the gay lobby is a grievous loss for the Body of Christ, and in our opinion, for the whole of society which is built on the Judeo-Christian ethic? It is not fundamentalist of us to insist on getting back to the fundamentals, to the very building blocks of creation, to God’s purpose in creation as written in Genesis 1 & 2 and re-affirmed by Jesus Christ (Matthew 19: 4-6): the union of male and female in marriage. Any attempt to foil God’s purpose is described in the harshest terms: the words “abomination” and “detestable” are repeatedly used, and we are promised the total desolation of societies which allow these practices.

I don’t understand why Christians are expected to give moral approval of same-sex marriage. From our point of view, and in the light of Malcolm Turnbull’s agenda, it is the Church which is being discriminated against and our freedoms which are under threat. We will not revise scriptural doctrine to allow for the existence of same-sex marriage. It may be running counter to the cultural tidal wave to resist however we cannot legitimize disobedience and a direct rejection of God’s intention and command in creation. It doesn’t mean that homosexuals are unwelcome in the Church. There’s always room for one more sinner. Ask Justice Michael Kirby, a faithful *gay* Anglican Church goer, who has put on record that, quote

"it's interesting, isn't it, that the survey by the Australia Institute of attitudes to homosexuals in Australia has shown that the lowest rate of homophobia, the lowest amount of angst about all this is amongst Catholics and Anglicans" (Radio National, 7 June 2006)

Interesting indeed.

hi to all the forgotten australians and those who have passed on god bless you and to the new forgotten australians you have my surport ,thank you boteration for taking intrest in all my comments and yes im aware of clan as i am a member of that group as we are the forgotten australians , all i ask is that the new goverment give justice to us victims and of those who are no longer with us , and the story of gays its intereting as well because it was also known in these institutions that the officers their self some were in gay relations ,and this is true and i say just because a gay personis gay does not mean they are kiddy touching but their are no doubt some that do as in the normal streight life person ,as also for gay's having children well my feeling is that they the children may also turn gay that no one will know until they grow up, a thing is im a male rape victim of the seventies by 2 pedophiles that worked in the goverment run institutions of australia and even though i was made to do unforscenable acts upon them ,i am certianly not gay , as i hope and as all of the forgotten australians hope the new goverment of australia will act for us forgotten australians we will no longer be the forgotten australians and we will no longer stay silent regards micheal and hi to all those who surport me

Why am I flying the flag for gay rights? I thought that it was obvious... I believe in understanding, in mercy, in faith. I believe in love between human beings, be it in a man's love for a woman, and hers for him or a man for a man, or a woman for a woman.

I believe in friendship and its power to turn selfishness to love. I believe in lasting love and the painful growth that it requires. I believe in death and the mystery that it unveils. I believe in eternity and the hope that it affords.

I do not believe in arrogance or pride. I do not believe in the unerring judgement of people that ignores the conscience of the simple and sincere. And I believe in parents who teach their children the beauty that is life.

Therefore I believe in civil rights for all people, regardless of their gender preference. And because I prize the uniqueness that is mine, how can I forbid others to be themselves - just because they're different from me. How can I tell them that they must live and die as aliens.

I hope that answers the question. I assumed that this topic would be of interest to others. And from the reactions to date, I don't think I was wrong.

We all jumped at Foxy’s starting gun without actually answering her question:

“...same-sex partnership? What are their rights under the law?”

In all Australian states, same-sex relationships are recognised as de facto relationships with generally all of the same rights. With one major exception – adoption by same-sex couples is permitted only in WA and (I think) Tasmania. All states prohibit discrimination against those in same-sex relationships – except in WA, religious organisations have an exemption from these anti-discrimination provisions.

In contrast Commonwealth law pretends that same-sex couples don’t exist, with a few exceptions. Since 2004 the Marriage specifically denies same-sex couples the right to marry. An Act related to terrorism from 2005 refers to same-sex partners in relation to giving evidence about terrorist activities (can’t put my hands on the exact details now). The highly dubious construct of “interdependency” allows same-sex couples some consideration in immigration matters.

As a result, same-sex couples are greatly disadvantaged in Commonwealth matters, and unprotected from discrimination. The HREOC report http://www.humanrights.gov.au/human_rights/samesex/index.html detailed the 58 pieces of legislation which need to be changed to achieve the limited equality same-sex couples enjoy in the states, but did not address the issue of marriage, because it was outside the terms of reference for its inquiry. Graeme Innes’ article here on OLO http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5549 is an excellent summary of the issues.

In short, Foxy, there are rights and responsibilities for same-sex couples in state law, but essentially none in Commonwealth law. This is a cause of great disadvantage for these couples.

katieO has given us another one of her gems: “It is not fundamentalist of us to insist on getting back to the fundamentals.”

I think you should be concerned about what’s happened to your brain since you got god, Katie. Or were you always this ditzy?

Of particular concern is the claim that since there are only 19,000 couples identified in the 2001 census, discriminating against them is legitimate. At what level does your numbers-based sense of justice kick in, Katie

jpw2040, I'm trying to work out how if the numbers are really that low and the uptake of the opportunity to marry so low where it is allowed for gays why do fundies are so convinced that allowing same sex marriage is the end of australian civilisation. Perhaps their concerns that someone will want to marry the family horse but I suspect that the uptake on that would be far lower still (assuming that someone determines that a horse can give informed consent).

So on the one hand gays are few in number and not many want to get married and on the other hand allowing them to marry is a great impost on fundy's and the end of australian values as we know them.

I'll avoid looking in through the bedroom windows of other people and say what is done after informed consent is not my business.

R0bert