Very nicely put Foxy. I can endorse that.

"I don’t understand why Christians are expected to give moral approval of same-sex marriage." Katie O, no-one is asking you to give moral approval, just acceptance that not everyone has the same beliefs as you. There is a big difference. No-one is expecting the church to marry gays either (and nor should it be forced to against its beliefs) - we are talking civil marriage here. There are lots of male/female marriages that are civil unions and not conducted in church.

For those that see the end of our society from this practice, remember that we are not talking about whether homosexuality itself is acceptable (because it already is under the law), but whether gay marriage is acceptable. To provide for unions of lasting endurance rather than the promiscuity that most of as automatically associate with the gay "lifestyle", has got to be a stabilising influence. If there is evidence from other countries that shows that these marriages are short-lived, then that indicates that there is a requirement for mandatory pre-marriage counselling (which I think is a must for any marriage anyway).

As for all those men that are uncomfortable about the potential for gay men to be attracted to them (which I am sure is a huge reason behind homophobia), well I guess then you know how it feels pretty much everytime a woman walks past a construction site! :)

Jpw2040: I am distancing myself between the Fundamentalism that is viewed by most as extremism. Mine is a commitment to the very basic principles of the bible. This won’t result in me becoming a fiscal member of the Christian Democratic Party or picketing abortion clinics. But OK, I give in. I’m a fundy by your definition.

That ditziness has been present ever since my first pregnancy, 9.5 years ago. We are told that it is connected to the level of estrogen. 5.5 years of breast-feeding might do it to you. I could just sit and do Sudoku puzzles all day…the omega tablets don’t seem to be helping. I get the kids names mixed up sometimes too.

RObert: If marriage brings so many benefits, why do Australian couples opt out of it in increasing numbers, either through divorce, or by maintaining a de facto relationship (which has to exist for two years and be a live-in arrangement to be considered marriage)? CG touches on this – the idea of preparedness for marriage, a recognition that something is going wrong.

Foxy, that is a very poetic statement of thoughts. Sort of echoes the Nicene creed in the repetition of the “I believe” statements. Surprising that an atheist, that abandons God the Creator, can accept the notion of faith and eternity. Faith in one’s own statements of disbelief? An eternity filled with nothingness? Hope in enduring emptiness?

Many of your values are indeed a direct outpouring of God’s Holy character – understanding, mercy, love, (the expectation of) painful growth, sincerity, beauty, acceptance. God’s unique character is described in the Torah, as written thousands of years ago. He is eternal and unchangeable, above His creation (in time and place) and yet intimately connected to it. Therefore, the very values you hold dear to are the bedrock of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Can you believe or disbelieve in arrogance or pride? These are symptoms of the fall, undermining our best efforts. My bible study group recently discussed pride and all admitted that it was evident in our lives. . .

. . . C.S. Lewis, in “Mere Christianity”, in the chapter “The Great Sin”, writes:

“There is one vice of which no man in the world is free, which everyone else in the world knows when he sees it in someone else; and of which hardly any people….ever imagine that they are guilt of themselves….The essential vice, the utmost evil is pride. Unchastity, anger, greed, drunkenness and all that, are mere fleabites in comparison; it was through pride that the devil became the devil; pride leads to every other vice; it is the complete anti-God state of mind”.

The evidence of physical death is overwhelming, except, of course if you cannot accept the fact of your own existence. Even the existentialists will marry, have children, mourn the passing of loved ones, smoke a cigar, get drunk. As they have discerned, the fact that you can see it, touch it, taste it does not prove it’s existence, and in fact, Christians are not concerned with physical death in that sense. It is spiritual death which occupies our thinking, death to God’s love and presence, death for all eternity.

Friendship is described in the bible too, the intimacy between David and Jonathon or Ruth & Naomi, which revisionists point to as evidence of homosexual relations. It is easy to get confused (if it is sex which drives all of your thinking) and trivialise all love experience.

The love relationship that Christians aspire to, is the one between the Creator and the Created. We are meant to imitate this in our lives by following God’s model, male/female marriage and raising the children of that marriage to love and worship the Creator. Atheists see that as instilling prejudice in our children from an early age, even seek to protect our children from being exposed to such teaching. Faced with eternal consequences, Christians are prepared to lay down their lives to protect their beliefs.

RObert, when you start down that slippery path of tweaking the bible here and there where it doesn’t suit a non-believer, where does it end?

Katie, where do you get your information that homosexual marriages in Netherlands last ~1.5 years on average?

From http://tglrg.org/more/80_0_1_0_M7/:

"Between April 2001, when same-sex marriage was legalised in the Netherlands, and December 2003, there were 5,751 same-sex marriages and 63 divorces.

In the same period, there were around 243,000 heterosexual marriages and 2,800 heterosexual divorces in the country of 16 million.

That means same-sex couples were slightly less likely than their different-sex counterparts to divorce.

Of all the couples married in the Netherlands since 2001, male couples were the least likely of all to end their marriages."

Further, in Scandinavian countries (such as Denmark, where same-sex unions have been legally recognised for *17* years - that's how far behind we are), heterosexual marriage rates have gone up, and divorce rates have gone down.

BTW, after checking out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_same-sex_marriage#1970 I have to revise my earlier prediction. Civil unions will be legally recognised in Australia within 3 years, tops.