Notwithstanding the sophistry employed in redefining 'religion' to include specifically non-religious ideologies, not to mention Boazy's looney-tunes fantasies about the wicked and evil Greens, in the cold light of day let's look at the facts.

At the current state of counting, the Coalition has 37 Senate seats, the ALP has 32, the Greens 5 and Family First 1. [http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2007/results/senate/]

This means that the avowedly fundamentalist Christian Family First party effectively holds the balance of power in the Senate, on something like 2% of the vote (in the last election - they actually did worse this time).

That's why people like me think that we need freedom *from* religion.

Boaz says "Consider this. My child goes to school, I've taught him that marriage should only ever be between a male and a female. He finds kids who have '2 daddies' and they pick on him.... for having 'bigoted' views, he comes home... in tears. Yep....'imposed' is the only word.

There can only be 'imposition'...and its either this way...or that."

Oh it's such a cruel world isn't it David. You come across someone with different opinions to you and next thing you know there's trouble at school for your children. Look at it from another angle. Children who share your child's view pick on the kids with two daddies. So who is being imposed on now?

What do you expect? Every differing opinion to lead to conflict and result in objections to being imposed on? Oh come on!

Remember I think there is no God, in truth a great many do think like me.
Yet we all, will be ruled by a very few who think differently, have always been ruled in the name of a fantasy.
The senate? even my party miss uses me and all who vote above the line.
IF people knew who gets the preferences even via conservative votes they would be stunned and insulted.
But few take the time to vote below the line, some could not it it without ruining the vote.
In my seat the lower house how to vote gave my preference to a rat bag group, scutineering showed like me most voters disobeyed the how to vote putting greens second and the racist last.
Back to the thread, why do we let POLITICAL CORRECTNESS and maybe fear stop us debating the rights and wrongs of all religions impact on the life of all in our country?
I have heard of preachers who have said they went on every Sunday preaching something they no longer believed in, because it was good for mankind?
We should be free to have open debate on every religion and we never in truth will be.

CJ.... I see exactly what you are saying. FF holds the balance of power.. at the point when your post was made.
But consider this. The Greens actually stated outright that THEY want the balance of power.. ok...good for the goose...good for the gander.
You say 2% determines? as opposed to your 6% or thereabouts? now who is kidding who :) neither 2% nor 6% are anything like a majority.

So.. don't point to the 'Christian' speck, when there is a Green 'plank' in your eye mate.
In short..'you' want it.. 'we' have it. :) (maybe)

This IS...'democracy'..and we all have to live with it. Sad but true.
We could always opt for a Pol Pot I guess....nah.. that might be a problem. They (Khmer Rouge) were only a small percentage of the population too... *shudder*.

CJ.. if ever you were going to MAKE my long standing point about minorities, including 'religious' ones... being able to make deals and shape the values, political, social and the cultural climate in a democracy, you have done so now on turbo... If, at this point, you cannot see the clear and present danger of ANY policy direction which would facilitate such a thing, then.. please resign from your job at Uni, and take up basket weaving or something.

ONE....SEAT... can change a country. Thank you for being the one among my usual opponents to finally agree with me.Now we are on the same page.

DITCH.... the deeper point in my comment about the kids etc, is the "clash of values". Kids are kids no matter what, so teasing will occur. If you feel that a society with men marrying men and women marrying women is ok....then you go right head and follow that agenda. I'll follow another. (and dare I say it... "God's") Now that should raise a few eyebrows :)

BELLY... the day people want to 'kill' you for not believing would be the darkest day of all. I'd be with you to defend your right to disbelieve against a 'Church' thought police squad which tried to force you.(On a political level)

I must say Boazy, that your last "anal-ogy" was one of the grubbiest you've made. I as a parent would be furious that your children bullied an innocent child for having parents that are different. After all, that child didn't have a choice in who their parents were. And if your children thought that that kind behaviour was somehow acceptable because of what you had taught them, then that is what is wrong here. What kind of parent do you think you would be perceived as, raising bullies and then arguing that your religious rights were being imposed upon? The idea that gay marriage is wrong is not the main point of that "analogy", bullying is wrong, bullying is the "imposition", your kids are free to believe as you do, but defending their behaviour because of your "values" would be the worst part of it.

Your really are not a great Christian Boazy, many of the real Christians I know would try to empathise with the bullied child and try to raise their children to not be thugs.

Boaz said "the deeper point in my comment about the kids etc, is the "clash of values". Kids are kids no matter what, so teasing will occur. If you feel that a society with men marrying men and women marrying women is ok....then you go right head and follow that agenda. I'll follow another. (and dare I say it... "God's") Now that should raise a few eyebrows :)"

So what do you expect Boaz? That everyone should have one opinion/belief for everything just so the kids don't get teased at school? And why pick a topic such as gay marriage to illustrate a very simple point that can apply to a multitude of topics. Suit your agenda does it? Of course it does.

You've got to start looking beyond the end of your nose fella.