Peter McGauran on ABC Land Line today "lied" about the amount of public that have contacted his office office years protesting the cruel Live Animal Exports.


It is a matter of record that John Howard himself has commented about the enormous amount of phone calls and letters he has received about live exports.

Once when he -the PM was answering questions on a talk back radio station he was embarresed by the fact most callers took to task about this utter cruelty of the live Animal Export Trade.

Members of the public tore strips off John Howard one by one.

Of All the things they COULD have asked him about- or got stuff into him about- It was the Live Animal Trade that haunted him caller after caller after caller.


The Howard Government are "fully aware" that the Australian Public want to cruel trade banned and replaced as soon as possible with carcuss trade only.

In Contrast Kerry Obrien while not going so far as to say- We will ban it- Said He was listening to the majority of the public.

Well Kerry Thats a good start. If Kevin is listening to you- you will gain not thousands but millions! of votes from- THE PUBLIC

Vaule adding is indeed why these other countries take these Animals alive and NOT relgious reasons.

Last Year Dr Ali the head of Muslims in Australia put out a media R Asking the Government and media to be reasonsible when reporting on the reasons WHY The Live Trade exsists.

To try to claim that the only people who care about what happens to these poor creatures is Animal Australia- [Which you call an extremist group?] is disengenous to say the least.

How come then you STILL ignore the largest petition in this country and world wide which has nothing to do with AA ? See>And read the comments from the PUBLIC Peter after all they are written to YOU! Perhaps we can now send it to Kerry who isnt so arrogant as you.

http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/view_signatures.php

The Arabs have most of the oil thus money,we have lots of quality sheep.Can we also stop the agonising deaths of millions of sheep cattle and kangaroos due to the drought and bush fires?I see no one protesting to their god.

Most animals in the wild suffer a more agonising death than being transported by ship.We watch lions on TV eat wildebeast alive and marvel at nature.Is this not hypocracy?Excessive pain and suffering for any living thing should be minimised but will destroying an entire industry actually reduce the total amount of suffering on this planet?

Are you too focused on a single issue to the point of, "the cause" becomes more important than the reality?

Arjay'
The reality is that Howards new Minister Peter McGauran lied while ALPs man spoke the truth.

Kerry Obrien didnt say anything other than- A Government must respect its peoples wishes.

As for destroying an industry that already been done by a few powerful greedy politically conected people in the past.

The farmers when the cruel live trade first kicked off were just that - farmers.
All they want is a fair price for their stock Arjay.

Havent you heard as prices go up and up in Woolworths and every other outlet just about the farmers are actually getting less?

Kerry Obrien exrepressed the need to open more plants - Which in return gives the red meat Industry more compertion.

That means a better price for farmers.

So your a hundred percent wrong Arjay.

Or dont you think Australia has the brains to cash in on value adding?
Regardless this thread was started to discuss the blantant lies to the public by the Howard Government.

Its time a bill was introduced to sack Ministers who knowingly lie to the public.

Atleast Kerry Obrien was honest about the amount of public interest.
Honesty is a good start.
Its also a nice change too.

"Or dont you think Australia has the brains to cash in on value adding?"

Clearly not, or local processors would not have to rip off farmers
when they buy sheep, but pay them a reasonable price, which they
don't. Fact is our processors behave like a herd of zebras,
stampeding to outdiscount one another and send each other broke.

Fact is, both parties realise that there is a huge campaign by
extremists like AA to make a political noise.

The good news is that O"Brien realises the value of extending
the restraining equipment system to the Middle East, which is what
they need. Up to now its been rolled out in SE Asia to deal
with cattle. Perhaps we can start in next years budget.

But farmers can only spend so many million a year on improving
animal welfare in other countries, this year its about 3.8 million.

Sadly, local animal activists don't seem to give a hoot about animals,
if they are not Australian. All very tragic really

People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming.
The bill that you have suggested already exists but it will never be used against any of the dishonest Commonwealth Public Officials because education of the peasant class on the use of this legislation does not exist.
It is called the Commonwealth Criminal Code Act 1995 and if you read section 137.(6) you will notice that the written warning must be given first but then what State Court will provide a private individual the right to prosecute any commomwealth public official for any of these offenses under this law. You dont even get of first base as they are fully aware of how to prevent prosecutions and the Cth DPP have more money and influence in the pretend court than a common working class peasant attempting a private prosecution.
We are the peasant class slaves and they are the ruling class and you will be made to remember that when big money is involved.
Nothing is going to change while there is no rule of law, what makes you beleive that the rule of law over-rules Govt policy.

PALEIF,will the Arab Nations accept meat slaughtered in Aust,then exported them?

Just keeping you on your toes.I never accept anyone's opinion on face value.Are you connected to the Animal Liberationists?

Yabby
The facts is Peter McGuran lied . That is the point of this thread.
The fact more than half that money you talk about IS the property of the Australian people.
The fact IS as Kerry Obrien Said- hes had more emails and phone calls from members of the public about the cruelty of the live animal trade than anything else.
What a huge insult to the RSPCA from the Government who has campainged for years! for the trade to be stopped.

RSPCA have thousands of members who are of course also members of the public.
Come to think of it the football teams are groups also.

Does that mean we should ignore all their members of public who are also members of the football club?
Mean time here are a few words from the public Mr Howard and Mr McGuran.
2007-10-13 Kathleen Nye Australia Australia is a nation of shame. Politicians, intent on obtaining profits for a few, are an ignominious blot on this country. In 2005, processed meat to Muslim countries totalled some $5.9 billion whilst live animal exports totalled less that $1 billion. Muslims do eat meat processed from our Halal abattoirs in Australia. The leaders of this nation are immoral and unethical in their greedy pursuits for profits, where they support the most heinous torture of sentient creatures. Thank you Minister McGauran and where is the voice of the opposition on the heinous cruelty and slaughter of our animals?? Rock apes!! 2007-10-13 Kathleen Nye Australia Australia is a nation of shame. Politicians, intent on obtaining profits for a few, are an ignominious blot on this country. In 2005, processed meat to Muslim countries totalled some $5.9 billion whilst live animal exports totalled less that $1 billion. Muslims do eat meat processed from our Halal abattoirs in Australia. The leaders of this nation are immoral and unethical in their greedy pursuits for profits, where they support the most heinous torture of sentient creatures. Thank you Minister McGauran and where is the voice of the opposition on the heinous cruelty and slaughter of our animals?? Rock apes!

Arjay
Thanks for your posts. No no connection to AL. Although we support everybody who believes in a fair go for farm animals.

We work with RSPCA QLD on the live trade issue and many other thousand ordinary members of the public.

We also work with some Muslim leaders to introduce farmers direct to buyers to cut out the cruel greedy middle man and give farmers a better price
see
http://www.halakindmeats.com/
Yabby the point is half of the three point eight mill is the public money!
As Kerry Obrien said if public say they want it stopped and replaced with exporting chilled me then Any Government would have to listen to the public.

Young Dan
Thank you for the information- its really interesting.
As to your question- The Answer is justice.

I will leave you with some messages to Peter Mcguran from the public-

2007-10-12 Tammy fulsang USA Please ban this horrible and cruel transportation of animals. Anyone who would support this is the worst kind of animal and should be transported by the same means.
2007-10-11 Linda Stratford Australia (enter comments here)
2007-10-11 Greg Stratford Australia (enter comments here)
2007-10-11 Lyndy Johnston Australia (enter comments here)
2007-10-10 mariel butterworth usa stop its unecessary cruel and babaric
2007-10-06 Annette Bezor Australia (enter comments here)it is beyond my comprehension that humans treat other sentient creatures like this. It must stop

Pale, I think that people like McGauren are simply aware that groups
like yourself and AA, are obsessed with the topic. Pro forma
emails and letters are encouraged by their website, a bit like
the Catholics when it comes to abortion, ie the same kind
of religious fervour.

Just look on OLO. How many people actively debate this topic?
Without myself, who would you talk to ? :)

Fact is people in Australia vote with their wallets every day.
By far the majority buy battery cage eggs, compared to free range.
Now battery chooks face a far worse life then any free range sheep
which spends a couple of weeks on a boat.

I have actually sold some lambs to go to Mecca this year for the Hajj.
They are going on the best boat, so transport will be comfortable.
Over there they are slaughtered in huge abattoirs set up especially
for the Hajj and pilgrims. Around a couple of million are slaughtered
in a short time, the pilgrims don't even see their lambs. The meat
is given to the poor.

The contracted price for these lambs is 60$. The best that the locals
could manage for the same lambs, is around 20$. Why would any sensible farmer sell locally?

Given that you are obsessed, you clearly won't have a rational
answer :) But if any rational people think about it, they might
well see another perspective, compared to the one that the fanatics are
suggesting.

Hi Yabby, If think if you stopped debating PALEIF, they would have some very short threads indeed! :) All respects intended PALEIF, but you do approach this with religious fervour, which is usually just easier to ignore than discuss with.

A point that I just noticed (and apologies if it was raised on your last thread, but as noted above, it just became too much to follow). I do wonder whether local slaughtering could be considered to be value-adding at all. Now, before I progress any further, let me note that my comments relate mainly to the NSW state of affairs, so you might need to alter things a bit for WA or QLD. Consider that most local abbatoirs in NSW have gone broke, I dont think it is them that are the greedy farmer-squeezers. The big duopoly is another kettle of fish entirely, focussed as they are on short-term shareholder return only. But, I'm starting to side-track already. One of the problems with the Australian market that Yabby has been pointing out for at least the last 18 months, is our HR system, including wages levels, and inability to absorb increases in supply. I wonder what the wages of the average Egyptian/Saudi meat worker is? Perhaps this is why exporters can afford to pay $60/head, and local meatworks only $20/head, even if the final destination of the product is the same. This differential with wages is the main reason why the process of "value-adding" can be a bit of a furphy, particular if the process is labour-intensive. That's why its cheaper to send our wool and cotton to China to be made into apparel, then ship it back here, as opposed to doing the vaue-add ourselves. Food for thought...

"How come then you STILL ignore the largest petition in this country and world wide which has nothing to do with AA ? See>And read the comments from the PUBLIC Peter after all they are written to YOU! Perhaps we can now send it to Kerry who isnt so arrogant as you."

It's not as simple as mere arrogance. Who has the government's ear, if not you? Follow the political pressure and the money. Who stands to benefit from the continued trade? Probably, a small amount of farmers and the government, in trade export $. The only thing that will make them listen, if they are too stubborn and/or effeminate to do something, seems to be through a tangible political cost to them, threatening their power. It's either up to the politicians to lead, or the people to force them to. If neither is helping you at this time educating people or spreading your message seems to be all that you can do.

Pale. I am interested to know what the exact lie is that you accuse McGauran of making.

You say that he lied about the amount of public that have contacted his office. He did in fact mention a lot of representations received by his office. It’s the format he has a problem with: form letters sent via animal welfare sites.

From what I can recall of the interview pale, you have wrongly accused McGuaran. He did acknowledge the receipt of public contacts.

Pale said: “The facts is Peter McGuran lied . That is the point of this thread.”

It would seem that, like most threads you post on, that the point is really just to keep flogging the same live export argument.

You really need a change of strategy. Your idea of killing here is a good one, its just not going to happen in hurry. Come up with workable solutions in the mean time.

McGauran came off badly (re live exports) in that interview and made some rather stupid statements. I thought the comment that it 'is an industry to be proud of' would be one he would live to regret.

"But farmers can only spend so many million a year on improving
animal welfare in other countries, this year its about 3.8 million."

Yabby has conveniently omitted to advise that it is we taxpayers ($11 million) who are paying for the farcical improvements to animal welfare in this trade. Here's the latest exposure on how these traders in barbarism continue to treat animals on the ships of shame:

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/2007/s2070137.htm

"I have actually sold some lambs to go to Mecca this year for the Hajj.
They are going on the best boat, so transport will be comfortable.
Over there they are slaughtered in huge abattoirs set up especially
for the Hajj and pilgrims. Around a couple of million are slaughtered
in a short time, the pilgrims don't even see their lambs. The meat
is given to the poor."

Really Yabby? You are beginning to believe your own propaganda though you had previously advised that the Middle Eastern nations ill-treat their animals.

You also advised in an earlier thread that you don't export sheep.

Here's how your animals will participate in the following "joyful" Muslim festivals:

. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_

Oh boy, does this mob know how to party or what!?:

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/the-beautifl-festival-of-ashura-warning-graphic-photos

Disclaimer: The poster is not affiliated with any animal liberation group - at least, not yet!

Dickie I remind you that the Govt co research one for one payment
is about 20% of the MLA budget. Given that there are 112'000
producers of livestock, who pay levies, perhaps your voice
doesent matter in this. How much do we taxpayers contribute towards
your pension?

As to the Hajj, they showed an extensive documentary all about it,
last year on TV, over a number of nights. All quite interesting
really. Something like 2 million pilgrims flood into Mecca.
The logistics of finding accomodation, feeding, clothing everyone
are quite gynormous. So huge infrastructure has been built.

Pilgirms are not even allowed to cook, because of the fire hazard.

So the Govt built huge abattoirs in Mecca to cope, as even you
should be able to imagine, that if everyone slaughtered their
own lamb in a city with 2 million extra people, it would all get
rather messy.

The pilgrims shown, went and paid for their lambs to the authority.
When it was slaughtered, they were contacted by mobile phone and
told. They thus fullfilled their Hajj obligation, which is what
it is all about for good Muslims. Saudi Arabia later distributes
that meat to various poor countries in the region.

Excuse my ignorance here, but I am not religious at all, could someone explain the whole mecca, lamb to slaughter, muslim thing??

This whole issue revolves around muslims! Why do they need to sacrifice a lamb that they dont even want? Its one thing to slaughter animals for food, but to just kill it for some religious ritual?

Pale, you are always supporting the muslims, whats your answer to this? I dont think they will agree to having their sacrifical lamb pre stunned and slaughtered here and sent over chilled do you?

Banning live exports to the ME will go a long way to resolving this issue.

OK, teach them how to handle animals with some compassion and how to slaughter humanely, but do it first, stop the exports until that happens. I dont think they will take interferring in their culture and traditions too well though do you?

“For E.U. cattle this torture is over,” Blanke said. “However, for the animals from other exporting nations the ordeal continues.”

http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/06/01/endofliveEUCattleexports01.06.htm

"The pilgrims shown, went and paid for their lambs to the authority.
When it was slaughtered, they were contacted by mobile phone and
told. They thus fullfilled their Hajj obligation, which is what
it is all about for good Muslims. Saudi Arabia later distributes
that meat to various poor countries in the region."

Wrong again Yabby. Many of the pilgrims slaughter their own animals and feast on them at Mecca.

While the bloodshed of animals is occurring at Mecca, many millions of Muslims all around the globe are also slaughtering animals in unison, to celebrate Hajj elsewhere.

"How much do we taxpayers contribute towards your pension?"

Another blunder Yabby. I don't receive a pension!

But my taxes are extracted to prop you up, and your sadistic, billious trade

No blunder Dickie, but a question. You along with other Australians benefit
from agricultural exports. Without them, we would have been a banana republic
long ago, which would include you. So you benefit from what I do.

If your share for helping ME animals is too much, with 20 million Australians,
your share would be a few cents. Would you like a cheque for that amount? :)

The point is Dickie, any slaughter of livestock makes you squeamish. Perhaps
that’s what office work all their lives, does to people. Given that you even
think that David Attenborough is obsessed, when he shows us the realities of
nature, perhaps you don’t want to accept the realities of nature. Working with
nature for so long now, has taught me a great deal, in terms of both birth and
death. You might think you are more evolved, I think you just won’t accept
the laws of nature as they are.

Frankly I think there are far more cruel things happening, then cutting a
sheeps throat, so I try to see the big picture. Go to an old people’s home and
watch old people die, as they are tortured for days, battling to breathe, battling
to live, yet forced on, against their will, to their last breath.

Go onto some of these hobby farms, to see ignorant people let their livestock
die, slowly, painfully, as they don’t know any better.

Go to any saleyard and see people buying sheep, taking them home for
slaughter, much the same as you condem the Arabs for. Some on the
outskirts of Perth even have little signs up “sheep for sale”

Are you going to ban hogtieing animals in Australia, if you think its
so evil? It happens on Australian farms every day.

So I think that right now trying to ban the live trade is flavour
of the month amongst the veggie movement, but then looking at the
various websites, it seems they want to also end the eating of meat,
fishing, dairying, animal farming, plus a host of other things.

Young Dan
Thank You, perfect. That’s perfect. We will look at it.

Arjay-

No we are not libbers or vegetarians. We are just ordinary members of the public that eat meat but want it to be humane from paddock to plate.

Those would be the members of the public that Peter denied he had ever heard from on National TV on Sunday on the ABC.

You remember those people don’t you Peter? The ones that you flew your advisor up to meet with.
They are the 96% of Australian people who eat meat that we discussed wanted to be represented simply as members of the public. Please Note Peter- PEOPLE Against Live Exports!

Are we now to believe that all the thousands of the public who are members of RSPCA are not counted as public by you as well?

CG
This thread is about Peter McGauran’s lies- not to debate labour costs in other countries which I am happy to do on the other thread.

Steel
Steel–

Alas you have hit the nail on the head.. I would like much more space to respond to you in particular. Yabby has requested more posts from Graham Young especially for the people who opened the thread. [ A rare insight from our resident rat Yabbs]
.
I will leave our sensitive Yabb`s to Dickie who has caught him out on one of his little porkies again!.
I think he actually enjoys the attention and response he gets from some posters so he works harder to torment.

There is much more we can do Steel.

Educating the public while is very important doesn’t but doesn’t go anywhere near far enough.

The only answer is for a Government to reverse some of the stacked levies- and done trade deals.The bottom line is to get plants re opened..

You do that by introducing farmers at grass root levels to overseas buyers.

If everybody forgot the Government and MLA, Austrade and their stacked deck things would be fixed.
All they do is block us from importing skilled labour for regional areas.

To be Continued

I'm not sure whether it was McGauran or O'Brien that mentioned that it was no longer the shipping of the animals that was of concern to the public, but the treatment of them at the other end. With the Australian govt and MLA involved in increasing the animal welfare standards in the ME, banning Australian live exports would only prolong the current practices. Further improvements are required over there, fully illustrated by dickie's links.

It shouldn't take the public long to realise that the live export industry actually provides leverage for change in the middle east, as Australian govts and MLA work towards and actually demonstrate humane animal treatment. No presence, no voice.

Rojo- " BS".

continued
MLA live off `us` the public. It is - WE the public that pay with our public tax funds to give them their jobs.

The first thing a Rudd Government should do if ellected is tell the MLA to pull their heads in and show the public some respect.

Then Stop the publics money being spent overseas to build [ whatever] in 'other countries'

Put it to the public Mr Rudd- Where do you want your public money being spent? Here or in Middle East?

Here in the regional areas where we have droves of tree change familes and Aboriginal People - pluss migrants coiming into this country needing work- Or The Middle East?

Then do whatever the public ask you.

Thats the way its `supposed to work` but the Howards and National are arrogant to the public and treat the funds as if they were their own.

Even now- how many of the public actually know the Howard and the National send their money to promote the cruel live animal trade?

Let me tell you - A lot more people will know soon.

The street I live in is FULL of people who knock on the door asking what else they can do to stop the live animal trade.

We are just people.- public

They are just people.- public

That is why we call ourselves PEOPLE AGAINST LIVE EXPORTS Mr McGuran as "you well know".

A good ALP Government would STOP the Australians publics money being spent in other countries and spent it HERE in Australia instead.

The ALP wonderful people but the unions would cripple meat plants "if" allowed to get out of hand again.

I think the Shadow Minister for Trade is a smart cookie and Burnie his advisor as well[ forget Jack]- so Kevin Rudd does have the team if he personally has the forsight and will.

Live Exports would have to be fazed out gradually so not to effect farmers.

ALP however have some cluey blokes in the AMIEU and with the Australian Public support we can ALL FIX IT.

"MLA live off `us` the public. It is - WE the public that pay with our public tax funds to give them their jobs."

Bollocks Pale. 80% of the MLA budget comes from mainly farmers,
some from live exporters and meat processors. The 20% from
Govt co contribution for r&d is spent at various places, including
Australian research institutions.

Tens of thousands of farmers get to vote on how the money that
they contributed is spent. You the public certainly do not give
them their jobs, we the farmers do.

Yet another Pale porkie

Yabby
What are you on? Its dollar for dollar. Industry and the Government from OUR public purse!
PF
You have asked all the right questions.

Do best I can with the space.
You asked why I said Peter Lied.
It would be clear to most of the public if Kerry Obrien sat there saying -he had more letters from the public about the live animal trade than anything else while -Mcgraun said the opposite "one of them were lying."

It doesnt make sense that the public would have ONLY written to the opposition over all these years of protests.

He said on Land Line that Animals Australia were behind all the letters. Well PF thats just nonesense and he knows it.

They do a very good job at informing the public of the truth and he doesnt like them because of it.
Especially the X police officer that he dare`s to try to discredit.

A decent person who put their life on the line for the Australian public for over twenty years- then again to bring the truth home to Australians as to what is happening to our Australian Animals in the Middle East- And How WE Australians are eve helping to pasy for it- to add insult to injury.

Every man and his dog knows that the RSPCA whom are made up by thousands of members of "the public" have long cried out to stop this barbaric trade.

I wonder if he is a member of a football club? Or a church?
Then we can call him an extremist.

What a load of utter BS. The public last year saw an all out brawl between Animal Welfare people last year.
We had the blind eye on ABC. The five page spread report in the Australian- not to mention its a matter of record there is no love lost between the giant USA group PETA and ourselves.
However as Peter McGuran fully knows all of these people have one thing in common.

They have been swamped by the public and to say anything else is a silly lie- Another one!

"What are you on? Its dollar for dollar. Industry and the Government from OUR public purse!"

I am on about the ability to read. Surely an organisation such
as yours, which makes all sorts of claims about MLA, would have
a copy of the 2006-2007 Annual report. My copy is here on
my desk, it arrived a couple of weeks ago.

Now go and look who is funding what, where the money comes from
and where it goes. $ for $ applies only to research and development,
not the whole MLA budget. Fact is, farmers finance by far the
largest part of MLA, so your claims are wrong.

Most of that r&d is spent on all sorts of r&d programmes,
plant breeding, agronomy, etc etc. So your claims that you
should have a say in MLA are wrong, as you clearly don't make
any contributions to the levy payments. If you were a farmer,
you would get a vote, like the rest of us tens of thousands
of farmers.

McGauran is correct in that he is aware that various veggie groups
are encouraging people to bombard his office with letters and
emails. Its well organised, but lets be frank, its only a tiny
% of the Australian public. Politicians know all about lobbying
campaigns, they are not silly.

O'Brien is perhaps less aware of the size of the lobbying attempt
and the fact that these groups don't want to discuss individual
conditions or improvements, they just want the trade shut down
at any cost. Its not going to happen.

Yabby
Fiddle Sticks, Crikey can`t you think while your reading?.

Fair dinkum, Stone the crows, I should have named this thread just - “pokies” .ah

In your case I am pretty sure you really don’t know however the Government do.

Or is it just greed and the lack of any humanity towards our Australian Animals that binds you lot together.

We also read “between the lines’ and follow the trial of blood money all the way to the political party donations.

That’s always been your problem Yabby- you believe everything you read on Industries web sites and repeat it like a parrot with no personal investigations- unlike some of the public.

Oh Yabb`s yes Please-```````````` Lets stay on topic of the thread speaking of lies and follow it all the way back to Landmark shall we?

What a lovely bunch of grubs that lot are.!

Ah but alas now I finally understand you. Your one of those people who have been brain washed by Lankmark.
Yabbadabadoo I finally worked it out.

You want to talk about MLA Ok – that certainly fits under the umbrella of this thread so I will disclose some of their lies that I personally have encountered. –Big porkies Yabbs. This could end up being the longest thread on OLO.

Now you try to say Kerry Obrien is naïve. Umm Hardly Yabby. What he is in fact is a clever poly playing with words to win an election.

Rudd will need to go much further than this. I still have not forgiven him for not disclosing to the public that AWB are very big Live Animal Exporters in the AWB Enquiry.
It was a mistake. However not such a big mistake that he cant go back and fix it.
Perhaps it was Kevin himself that underestimated the huge public interest in the cruel live trade of our Australian Farm Animals.

It doesn’t seem like Obrien has the same problem and if Kevin support Obrien and listens to the public we may never see a National Liberal Government again.
It is going to happen- Sooner or later

Now Yabby, size doesn’t matter ….. so they say, but consumer awareness and outrage grows every day and so will the lobbying no doubt. I think there will definitely be some concessions made and my bet is on banning live trade with the ME.

Pale – back to who told what lies.

“He speaks of getting a lot of representation from the public. So do I, but they are attributable to Animals Australia and other extremist groups.” That was Mcgauran’s statement. He may have lumped every thinking australia with an opinion on this into the extremist basket, but he did in fact acknowledge letters from the public.

You have to have your facts straight if you want to play with the big boys.

"Crikey can`t you think while your reading?."

Pale, perhaps you should try reading, then thinking, or we will get
more scatterbrain posts from you :)

The transcript of the debate is on the Landline website. I can't
see what you are getting your knickers in a twist about.

Pale, I simply don't jump to conspiracy theories as you do.
Show me information on a website on that is wrong, I will take
note. So far its your porkies that I don't believe.

At the end of the day, rational thought will prevail, when all
the veggie hysteria has died down.

Being science minded, this raises some interesting questions for
me and for Australia. Are you going to try and ban Kosher slaughter
in Australia, where throats are slit? Or just Halal slaughter where
throats are slit? What about Aussie backyard butchering, where
throats are slit? What about hogtieing sheep, will it be illegal?
Or are these things only wrong, if they happen in the ME?

McGauran has done the right thing in launching a scientific enquiry
into pain at slaughter, so that we know the truth. Both Islamic
and Jewish faiths state that one should be kind to animals.
Both Islam and Jews claim to have scientific evidence which shows
that their procedures cause less pain then Western stunning methods.
So we shall see. I don't jump to conclusions, lets see the evidence.
If veggie groups insist on stunning first, then perhaps Jews will
have to import their meat from another country, as thats not Kosher.

Dickie's EU website confirms that lots of modern Western meat plants
have been built in the Middle East. So clearly its not all as
the veggie brigade shows it. We also know of flash new boats,
again not like is shown on the veggie websites. The industry certainly
has changed, when will the veggie brigade acknowledge that?

We clearly need more information from less biased sources. So there
are lots of questions that need answering, before we rush to
any conclusions, as many have done

PF.

If Australia is a meat eating country by the majority of 96%- then it ought to be obvious to Mr McGauran that vegetarian extremists are in the minority.


A little story
Several years ago we contacted one of the original founders involved in establishing the first enquiry into Animal Welfare.

It was finally decided that they would be granted a enquiry into Animal Welfare but ONLY if it was all presented from the one view point.

They said they didn’t want half a different angles or slants on it. Umm,

Please don’t get me wrong. They worked” hard and made a mile stone” to even get an enquiry especially way back then.

However the stage was set without them even realising it.

I still don’t think they realise it. If they do then Animal Welfare is nothing more than a well oiled political wheel.

The Polly’s- knew back then this Animal Welfare issue could bite them on the bum.

So they set it up to hold any enquires from a veggie point of view [only].

That set a precedent which could be used for years to come.


The reason of course they did that was to discredit any evidence that they presented.

It made it easy for the media to write off all valid complaints as – those bunch of extremists veggies to the public. - Damage control-

We suspect this method is still being used today.

Sure they will give them their enquires- because we know in the end they have the media to brand all complaints as coming from a bunch of veggie extremists.

Peter McGauran was requested for that very reason to establish a new Animal Welfare registry.
To give the 96% of the public an equal have discussed this issue at length by phone, written correspondence and in person.

Now he says Animal Welfare concerns by the public are already represented and the publics views are expressed by the very people he than brands extremists-

RSPCA demanded Live Exports STOP Peter McGauran and they are made up by thousands of members of the Australian Public.!

"Dickie's EU website confirms that lots of modern Western meat plants
have been built in the Middle East. So clearly its not all as
the veggie brigade shows it."

Yabby, You speak with forked tongue. Please refrain from twisting the truth or we may have to ressurrect the previous misinformation you have peddled in an attempt to dupe the reader.

The following excerpt exposes the real agenda the importers have to build "Western" abattoirs which is simply to increase their supply of live animal exports and is not out of any concern for animals.

"The Eid al-Adha tradition of amateur slaughter and individually commissioned custom slaughter have been invoked by some Middle Eastern governments as a PRETEXT for permitting only imports of live animals.

"This functions as an indirect subsidy in support of western-style slaughterhouses recently built in many Middle Eastern port cities. The year-round cattle import industry has gradually grown LARGER, at some ports, than the import of cattle for Eid al-Adha.

"This in turn has produced an awkward alliance of animal advocates with European slaughter workers, in agreement that live exports should be replaced by the sale of frozen carcasses.

"The anti-subsidy campaign was also supported by the Taxpayers’ Alliance and the Taxpayers’ Association of Europe."

http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/06/01/endofliveEUCattleexports01.06.htm

Ah Pale, perhaps Mcgauran is not so silly.

Perhaps he "reads between the lines" as you do and suspects
that you are actually a closet veggie, pretending to like
meat, but in fact plan to start a chain of Halal veggie
burgers eventually. Perhaps he could be correct :)

Never mind, the public will of course flock to the "Yummy
Lamb Burger" stand.

The Turkish Muslims aren't having any of this business either. Established slaughter houses? No way Jose!

And there's no way of taming these bloodthirsty barbarians either.

1,179 of these butchers were treated for injuries during the rampage to slaughter animals in backyards and streets - one was injured by a crane used to hoist an animal prior to killing the poor critter and 4 others seriously injured by animals falling on them.

How curious that these depravities are reported around the world - Ireland, US, Europe but not in Australia.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/?c=ireland&jp=cwsnkfmhidau

Ah Yabbs, alas our billion dollar secret for the Australian economy is not safe with you.

We want BOTH. However mostly to stop twenty years of complaining about the cruelty and actually “DO” something about it.

Yup but the Halal” Pre stunned” “Allah is merciful stand” will sell more than the Aussie burger RITUAL SLAUGHTER STAND.

Oh Didn’t Peter tell you Yabb`s? They want ALL Animals Slaughtered in Australia done by the Islamic Ritual method.

Isn’t that right Ikabel?. Sorry Yabb`s but your Yummy lamb Aussie burger stand is out of business.


Yup Halal drive through, and veggie burger drive through, and stands will beat them all.

Might even wrap it all up with some educational wrapping material and toss in a free baby sitting service for those who attend our ‘education workshop lectures’ on Animal Welfare.)

A few TV adds showing the public how the “others` are Slaughtered should seal it- AND expose ANY Government even THINKING of Allowing Ritual Slaughter in Australia!

Pity McGauran hasn’t capability of comprehending the endless benefits to Australia’s economy, employment, health and reputation by spending our public tax dollars building abattoirs and slaughtering HERE instead of the Middle East.

Nor does he see the danger in bending to the requirements of the extreme Muslims to turn Australia into an Islamic Ritual Slaughter Country.
Most Muslims freely accept pre stunning . So why is Australia bending to the extreme and spoiling our reputation.?

We are the talk of the world as we go backwards and into dangerous waters.

Just goes to show what happens when you put the wrong man in the job like the new President of AFIC who cant be trusted to honour a MOU.


Most Muslims readily accept pre stunning of Animals but Ikabel and Peter don’t have the guts to make a stand instead bening to the extreme.

Still that will suite "us' as we enjoy world wide approval from friendly marketing programs for "humane slaughter" HKM - verses Australia’s RITUAL Slaughters!

Bon-Apetite
Dickie the public aleady said- They want Live Exports banned.
"Time to help reopen plants".

Pale said Yup but the Halal” Pre stunned” “Allah is merciful stand” will sell more than the Aussie burger RITUAL SLAUGHTER STAND.

Havent you got that arse about pale? Its ‘Allah’ that seems to have a preference for ritual slaughterings, not the aussies.

Pale also said “Oh Didn’t Peter tell you Yabb`s? They want ALL Animals Slaughtered in Australia done by the Islamic Ritual method.”

So, you would be happy for animals to be ritually slaughered here instead of ME? I don’t give me that pre stunning crap because they have already been exposed for not doing it.

Mercifully for the animals of austalia, we are not into sacrifices and ritual killings. Just whos side are you on pale? You’re not taking kick backs (or should I say donations) to sing the praises of the muslims are you?

pale, if the reason for this thread was really just to highlight a lie told by a politician than you must be a very tortured soul. Im sure you know that all politicians wether they are from left right or in between, lie - thats what they do. If you are going to start a thread every single time one of them lies than I dont think youll have much time for a life, let alone supporting your chosen cause.

So - realistically your thread was started to forward your cause and highlight the issues about live export that concern you - we dont want to tell anymore little lies do we!!

As Yabby has articularly pointed out the life a lamb, calf or any animal breed for produce doesnt have a pleasant life. That is a fact - end of story. I, with my family are farmers so we are involved in the industry and the breeding and trading of this stock. I wince when the stock are loaded onto trucks for travel to the saleyards, I wince when the lambs are marked, I wince when the sheep are shorn - their whole existence, in our eyes is pretty ordinary but if the markets - the public - want to eat lamb and beef, wear wool and leather and not pay an absolute fortune for it than the animals to some degree have to suffer. Every effort is made by the farmers, shearers etc to alleviate any unecessary suffering but its simply a fact of life. Live export is the same - the market dictates the sheep are live - end of story.

Get over it pale, I reckon you should go and find another cause - how about - "People against Politicians Lying" ....thatll keep you busy!

PF
Funny
No, Poor Old Yabb`s will be out of business with his Yummy Aussie Lamb Burger stands because there wont be any Aussie Slaughter houses left.

They want “all Animals Slaughtered in Australia to be Halal”

Another little secret
Around five or six years ago Muslim leaders asked the Australian Government if “all’ Abattoirs in Australia could be made Halal.

The Answer was NO.

Still -as time goes by with the demand of Halal Products world wide they will just open more plants.
More ways than one to skin a cat, O`oops sorry dickie.

Halal meat is a multi billion dollar industry and growing fast.

I think we can safely say within a few years there will be” very few” Aussie meat plants still in operation- unless we do something now and get our own regional and aboriginal people and if you like our own breed back involved with the industry.

NO- We are NOT happy to see Abattoirs ‘not pre stunning’.

BUT its actually happening here NOW and for a LONG time under domestic plants which mostly come under Labours State Governments.

AQIS at the moment WONT allow it – but they are considering it right now.

AFIC have NOT made a stand for pre stunning- So their leadership WILL be challenged amongst the Muslim People themselves!

The X president of AFIC Dr Ali Ammeer last year put out a media release explaining that most Muslims readily accept pre stunning.


JAKIM are NOT that hard to deal with if it’s put on the table.

There are many Good Muslim People who will stand up for pre stunning of Animals and insists on mercy when slaughtering.

Halal Kind meats WILL Pre Stun and will Slaughter HERE In Australia with a high degree of control over Animal Welfare.

In fact it will be the priority “and marketed that way.”

It’s a billion dollar Industry that Australia could play THE leading roll in.

Why screw it up because of bad leadership.

pale, how on earth would getting aboriginal or "our own breed" back into the industry help.

I wish I lived in your fantasy land - it must be fun!

Quite simply by creating employment in regional areas.

Brought a leather lounge lately-? Hides from Malaysia. Aboriginal people are artistic by nature.
This is just one example as to how we can train these people to run their own upholstery business and much more.
We have migrants arriving daily and sea change people in regional areas.
They will need jobs unless you think its ok to have the whole nation living off welfare and being carried by our farmers and small business.
As for your comment about Peter McGauran office - lying.

I am extremely disappointed with Peter McGauran and his office.

I thought we had some pretty good talks about allowing the public who represent 96% of met eaters to be heard.

The fact is it SUITES them to ONLY talk to veggies!

I have decided to post a serious of letter written regarding this whole veggie and Animal Welfare issue. It will take time. They are lengthy and we also had the advisor attend QLD to discuss some of these issues.
The reason Animal Welfare has not been taken more seriously is because it was considered under control- and a bit of a joke in the first place.
The old democrats lobbying the votes with labor preferences.
Take it from me Andrew Bartlett has had a million opportunities to get involved with reopening plants in not only QLD but Australia wide.
So have Animals Australia and Animal Liberation and about sixty others that works under them but should break free to independence.
ALP knows the Democrats are finished and they have the deal with the Greens who really support proper Animal Welfare.

That’s what is behind this latest outburst from Kerry O’Brien in my opinion.
Mean time we need to reopen plants and get farmers the best prices possible. Farmers ARE the back bone of Australia and we need to work “with them”- Not make enemies of them.

RSPCA may have the answer for fed¬eral Labour politicians.
Not that the RSPCA was surprised by the strong response from Australians outraged at endemic cruelty in the live export trade.

um, I wish your employment solutions could be so easy Pale. For years the governments have tried to prop up aboriginals with their own businesses and almost every single time thay fail. The reasons for the failures are that aboriginal people have a completely different value system to white australians. Ownership of a business, property or even their own art simply does not matter to them. I dont think they are wrong, just different and we should stop trying to make them like the average white australian.

Saying aboriginals are artistic is a pretty broard generalisation as well - like white people, some are good artistically some are not.

I cant believe that you could make such ridiculous statements.

There will be no regional areas at all if people like you get your own way and ban anything to do with the treatment of animals during processing for markets.

and by the way, the reason the leather lounge I might buy is made in Malaysia is because if you bought one that is made in Australia it would cost 20 times the amount for the malaysian one. And to be totally honest you wouldnt be able to find one made in Australia because nobody makes things here anymore - why you may ask?? - because unions have created a completely unrealistic wage system in Australia making it unaffordable to manufacture in Australia. If the workplace reforms that were introduced by the coalition were allowed to be implemented correctly you might find that most people would be happy to get a reasonable wage without all the bells and whistles - a job paying $500 a week is better than no job at all.

"The Turkish Muslims aren't having any of this business either. Established slaughter houses? No way Jose!"

Dickie, I remind you that Turkey is a secular State, not
an Islamic State. We don't send live sheep to Turkey,
so its not an issue here.

Fact is that if Australian muslims want to cut sheeps
throats on their tree change hobby farm, they are free
to do so.

Yup, the Middle East is changing, due to enormous wealth.
Yesterday's Melbourne Cup was sponsored by Emirates, a top
world airline. Dubai is today a major global city. Saudi
Arabia now earns 1 billion $ a day from oil. Read their
papers, you will notice they strongly discourage private
slaughter in their suburbs, for good reasons. They have
not banned it yet, as culture changes in steps, not overnight.

It is in the interests of the Middle East, with tourism in
Dubai etc, huge wealth in Saudi Arabia, together with their
Islamic beliefs, that things change. You just won't do it
by waving your big arrogant Western finger. People skills
matter, something the West has real trouble with.

Izzo

Regarding your cheap lounge from Malaysia-
It just may end up being the most expensive lounge you ever purchased in the long run.

We are not trying to Ban Meat plants either - rather open many more.

We support Work choices.

Unions are a huge concern agreed.

Everybody else-

Despite the Governments disgusting track record on Animal Welfare until last Sunday we still supported them.

Nobody is getting any votes anymore through animal welfare unless they earn them.

This well oiled politically motivated scape goat claiming all people concerned about the cruelty of live Animal Exports are only extreme bunch of vegetarians is over.

“ Peter Mc Gaurans office and staff know that is not true.”

They know its not true because of the many conversations, letters and meetings to discuss several proposals and” that issue” was one of them.

Some thought they had RSPCA under control. Let me WSPA in your ear they forgot the public.

They forgot the thousands of members of the public.

They also forgot the thousands of public that aren’t members of any groups.

Yabby

We lets stick to the discussion before us regarding comments on Land line.

If you care to open a thread to debate Middle East Tourism or aboriginal affairs we would be happy to respond.

Mean time I would simple like to add that the Government know 90% of the Australian public want the cruel live Animal Exports stopped.

Someone should tell the Government there`s no point protecting your buddies in the Industry if its putting you out of Government.

Lets put it to the vote shall we? Lets make it an election issue.

Tax payers and members of the Australian public- Where do you want your money spent.

Here or in the Middle East?

I will open another thread and we can use it as a poll.

People Skills- its important to ask-

You just don’t go waving your big arrogant Western Government finger.

People matter, something the Cruel Live Export Industry and Government has real trouble with.

Pale - thought you might like this.

Ahh... but did the big boys get to him and convince him that free range means free to range inside sheds?

Single vision for free range
By MEGAN McNAUGHT
07nov07

FEDERAL Agriculture Minister Peter McGauran has called for a uniform approach to regulating free-range farming.

Mr McGauran said he would bring state agriculture ministers together to develop a uniform and enforceable approach to the use of the term in labelling.

The move follows a call from egg and pork free-range farmers for strict requirements on producers labelling their products free range.

The Weekly Times last week revealed that shoppers were buying eggs and pork branded as free range but produced using intensive farming methods.

Industry sources say a lack of laws governing the use of the term "free range" means less than half the free-range eggs sold in stores would meet consumer expectations.

Full report in this week's The Weekly Times.

http://pigout.net.au

PF
Thank you.
Yes I have seen it. Brilliant.

Yesterday I was speaking to the head buyer of Woolworths.

We had a great debate about what free range pork really is.

Its been on for your and old up here as our people trot into the stores and ask for free range pork.

Most managers dont even know what it is.

They ask you. Sorry but what`s that?

The even bigger concern is the buyer didnt really know or understand the difference himself.
We also discussed RSPCA accreditation at lenght and the fact that the public would not be satisfied with anything less than the real deal.

He proudly started to say that they had- this farm and that farm and hoped to have etc etc in QLD next year.

He went on to say that they were trying for this Christmass and recomeded a certain plant.

We told him that wasn`t! free range and he sounded quite surprised.
We caught out one of his stores telling porkies that a product was fre range.

He was interested when I said there was a farmer in NSW that could assist Woolworths with the "real deal" He asked perhaps he could speak to that person to get some ideas and guidelines and also promte that persons farm and products.
We spoke about Woolworths assisting to establish free Range Farms for Pork and other products.
Joint Ventures with Russian Business men etc and Aussies. We spoke about a training Franchise arrangement paying a head farmer to advise etc.
As Woolworths are into petrol and other products this is not out of the question.
He is arranging the manager and director to discuss this idea more.
I told him I would ask the farmer I had in Mind doing free Range Pork would they speak to him as well
So I guess its up to you if you would be interested to talk to him.
Again Thanks

Pale, I appreciate that you are trying to help but let me briefly explain what is happening in the free range industry.

Its not more sales we need, its more farmers.

Woolworths is not a target market. My belief is that they are in cohutes with the big players to develop a free range standard that will allow for animals raised in sheds to be classified as such. "bred' free range they like to call it. Its so easy to make that look so good compared with conditions in factory farms.

McGauran says he calls for a uniform and enforcable approach but I wouldnt get excited until we find out what the definition is going to be.

PF

Sorry I did not make myself clear. We were discussing "just that".
More Free Range Farmers and ways to establish farms educating and training new farmers.

There is no reason why they cant take some responsibility to the product they sell.

That would insure the required advertising exposure which in return serves them well too.



bare with us.
We are limited in knowledge especially having given most time to Halal.

What about a package deal for Migrants sea change family’s -aboriginal people and regional people.?
That way you get the State and Federal Government funding combined with the support from both State and Federal Ministers of employment health aboriginal Ag and trade onboard along with the funding of the Russians or Investors.
They come and buy into Free Range Farms and training comes along with it.

I know it’s an art and you need someone who can look an animal in the eye and just know something’s wrong but lets start somewhere.

Older Farmers as advisors being paid- to be available by video link up until the new farmers found their feet.

Maybe start by doing a AG school and have a free range farm right there which would be self producing.
What do you think?

Regarding Peter McGauran free range project it won’t be his. It will just be what he’s advised to do by the self serving Industry.

That’s why we wanted you on the advisory board.

There are far too many experts on these boards advising that know nothing.
These Ministers are all x lawyers mostly. They get given different port Folios but rely on the Industry heavily for directions.

For example that the Ministers in Government actually “really believed” that Muslims didn’t have electricity and demanded animals alive for ritual slaughters.

It was a porky told by the industry a long time ago when the heat first started.
They thought it was hilarious that the Ministers were silly enough to believe them.
Some Ministers still do.

Pretty sure Peter still isn’t sure what to believe.

Anyway what`s your thoughts on the Free Range Pork Farms?

Cattle Spaying - ovaries cut out - no anaesthesia - no not the Middle East - it's Australia! This treatment of defenceless heifers and cows is simply an entree to the main course!

Spaying.
Female calves in some particularly remote and extensive properties (especially in Queensland and the Northern Territory) may be ‘spayed’ without analgesia to prevent pregnancies.

Flank spaying involves entering the abdomen through a cut made in the flank of the animal. When performed without anaesthesia there is a level of pain and distress to the animal that is totally unacceptable. In nearly all instances this procedure is performed WITHOUT anaesthesia.

In heifers and undeveloped cows, passage spaying by hand is only possible with the aid of a mechanical device to spread the vaginal passage. This procedure inflicts extreme pain to the animal and causes irreparable damage to the vagina. The greater proportion of spaying is performed on undeveloped cattle where the procedure requires the use of spreaders.

Another method, the Willis Technique, is increasingly being used in the Northern Territory and Queensland. This method involves an operator placing his/her arm into the back passage of the calf and cutting the ovaries out. Again, no analgesia or anaesthesia is used, and the operators must be highly skilled to avoid internal damage and infections.

None of these ‘proceedures’ is performed using anaesthetic or analgesic follow-up. Rarely are they carried out by veterinary surgeons; most being undertaken by unqualified untrained workers.

Dickie
Dawn Shame live Exports is a fantasic operator.
I recall her being one of the few that saw the merritt in establishing free range farms.

Of course this treatment is unexceptable which only makes Yabbys claims that Australia is leading the way teaching the Middle East Compassion for animals a joke.

I am going to say it like it is despite whom I upset from where!
Four years ago we offered to bring this to a federal court.

All of it Dickie. Australias lack of Animal Welfare.

We needed Glenyce of Animals Australia to assist in briefing the heavy weight barristers because we didnt want to rely totally on Hugh Wirth.[ Too much for one person lets face it]
Animals Australia said NO.

So there you go Dickie.
The man who was to head it is now a judge so we lost him.

I am angry about that and rightfully so.

RSPCA CEO QLD was right behind it.

To stop them being mutilated without pain treatment we need a training programe run by the DPI and RSPCA.

Many Many aboriginal and regional area people could be trained to do this.
Another little secret
Several years ago we contacted the Minister for tourism about the cruelty such as you describe inthe outback.
Joe Hockey was away and being replaced by a lady. I will dig her name up as its slippled my mind.
She said - So what . I have helped hold bulls down while the men tor the balls out with their teeth.
Ah but what good advertsing for Joes Office at the time.

We just so happend to have a journo from the UK working in the office at the time.
' They headed for the hills in droves as he contacted them to confirm the story.

The bottom line IS- We need to establish free Range humane farms run under "proper supervision".

There is no other way.
Then we can advertsise what we DONT do on our farms with these pictures.
Have you contacted RSPCA for a comment?

Dickie
Thanks for that.

We are going to be very busy with elections pluss the brumby problem and were wondering if you would be kind enough to take this thread over?

Well Dickie I think yabby hit the nail on the head a few weeks ago.
Oh yeh I am sure when it suites you will come back on OLO and say you were away.
I regect your story you are not working with a group.

You are no doubt a member of a few but all the signals are there.

Until people learn to think fpr themselves nothing will change for the animals.

We must come up with alternatives and actually compete to get farmers interested in our proposals.

As yabby would say- Rattle the Tin or preach all you like- Nothing changes.

We actually do not fund raise and we do work hard finding alternatives.

The peak Animal welfare reps in this country must be broadended to more than this veggie RSPCA arrangment.

We ALL saw how effective RSPCA are when it comes to live exports.

We APPLUADE Animals Australia for the blind eye on the ABC.

However- main stream people must get progects off the group and that is hard given the silent code of contuct and lack of manners used by this lot.

If you really want to help the Animals Dickie you MUST broaden your view and at least have the manners to reply to those onside.
Only makes good sense

What's wrong with you PALE?

I have been monitoring this thread during your absence but since there have been no poster responses and I had no current news to report, how could I participate?

"We are going to be very busy with elections pluss the brumby problem and were wondering if you would be kind enough to take this thread over?" 12 November 2007 5:05:42 AM

PALE:

What's with the misleading information?

I notice you weren't absent from OLO at all.

You have raised additional posts during the:

12/11, 13/11, 14/11, 15/11 and 16/11.

Dickie
The reason pale still posted was you didnt reply. It is just good manners. Even Yabby commented something simlar a while back.

If you look you will see 2am 3am and 4 am posts.
Regarless you dont ow us anything - nor we you.

We just HOPED you might help out and clearly if you WERE going to do that you would have responded.

Two things for the record- At least your the ONLY other one TRYING to help Animals.

You WOULD be a much better help to Animals IF you took the blinkers off and AT LEAST 'THOUGHT' ABOUT WHAT WE ARE SAYING TO YOU.

Dont you understand Dickie? Cant you see for yourself this cruel live export trade growing bigger each year- each day!

So long as people follow this so called peak group nothing will even change. All the faithfullittle members running around fund raising and being conned into keeping people in well paid jobs.
Youv been had Dickie along with thousands of other members of the public who THINK they are making a difference.

It will only get worse.

Whats wrong with you PALE?
Thats whats wrong Dickie. Your free of course to do and think what you like.
I for one will never believe you however when you say your not involved with the extreme lot.

Its clear to me you listen to everything they say.

Think outside the square Dickie for the Animals sake and yours!
Thats whats wrong.

Good work pale!!

You have now managed to alientate the only person on this forum that ever stuck up for you.

May be you should take the blinkers off so you can see the pattern of your own self destructive behaviour.

Your delusions seem to grander all the time.

PF
For starters Peter McGauran isnt the trade Minister.
This is a trade issue.
If the others woke up to themselves they could get funding through the regional develpment plan from both state and federal Governments.
They could also get assistance through MLA and Austrade.

All they have to do is get behind establishing more free range farms and farmers. That would make a huge difference for the animals.

Going on and on about cruelty yet refusing to involve themselves in alternatives is a joke.
You know it and I know it. Its a huge political joke.
We dont care who likes us for telling it the way it is.
.
Millions of dollars have been raised over many years by all sorts of groups including the RSPCA by showing public awful footage.
Put those funds to alternative programes is what we are saying

Actually PF we dont give a Rats@ what you think to be really honest.
Apart from make a few good posts regarding free range pork what else have you done?
Oh except to try defame pale in anyway you can.

Fellow Aussies

Please sign the following petition to assist in halting the slaughter of these defenceless creatures. Thanks.

http://www.whalesrevenge.com/poll.php?show_all=1