Are we meant to convert every last living one to Christianity before the second coming occurs ie the end days? Well that is what I heard from a Christian arena a while back. What gives with that?

Who says that religious groups should be converting and changing the ways of peoples in the deepest darkest parts of Africa and so on. Don't say the man written word, the Bible please. What about Livingston and all these goody good ones that go on missionary work. They ought to just HELP the people less fortunate rather than having an agenda to convert them by giving out Bibles everywhere. Can't mankind just leave it be.

Correct me if I am wrong but the Christian believe the second coming (of Christ), won't occur until all peoples of the earth have been reached. There are so many unreachable groups out there; I guess the end of the world isn't coming anytime soon.

Dear Cakers
speaking as one who shared in the blessing of Missionary work.... I can impart to you exactly how 'Missionaries' have been used in the glorious work of spreading the Gospel of Christ..and its impact on mankind.

In 1929 a tribe of people in Borneo ..often called 'muruts' but they go by a number of names,were is serious decline. They had been 'ethnically cleansed' by other tribes (Iban/Dayaks...Kayans) who desired their land.. and they were now settled in an area where they had relative peace. Unfortunately there were a number of characteristics which led to their own impending demise.

-Hospitality..they were extremely generous..
-Drunkenness.. they were drunk more days a year than sober (Rice wine)
-The rice wine depleted their food stores.
-Animism..fear of spirits.. sometimes they would abandon a nearly ripe crop because of a certain bird flying across their path from left to right as they were going to harvest.

This tribe heard about some missionaries working among the Iban.. (who were unresponsive to the Gospel) and they were aware of some of their own tribe who had been transformed by the Gospel on the Indonesian side of the Border. They send a delegation to the Missionaries, and requested them come and teach them about Christ.
The whole tribe with few exceptions, became Christian. They were previously in such a bad way, that the government officially decided they were to be 'Allowed to die out'.... imagine the worst cases of aboriginal squalor...and you have a picture of this tribe prior to conversion.
Now..they have members of parliament.. lawyers..doctors... businessmen.. and are a vibrant growing community.

Conversion to Christ.. is not about 'economic well being and social advancement..it is about being Saved from sin and its debilitating social consequences. This tribe knew this, and has sent many missionaries of their own to the rest of Sarawak, and even Laos.

PART_2

Among the Kelabit_tribe, practices such as infanticide occurred as a result of 'spirit warnings'.. leaving babies in large jars under the house..with salt in their mouths.. till they died. Not to mention head hunting and raiding other villages to take slaves and heads.
Would it surprise you that "Missionaries" rebuked them for killing others ?

http://asianencounters.org/community/bario/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=50

This little quote from that site says:

They embraced Christianity during the 1940s through the influence of Guru Paul, also known as Nimang Tepun.

It also has this:

In the year 1946, the first school was opened by Tom Harrison, who lived with the Kelabits for two years after the Second World War.

Then there is this:
http://www.kelabit.net/kelabits/bario.html

"Shortly after the war, groups of missionaries arrived, chastised the Kelabits roundly for their pagan ways of life, destroyed many cultural artifacts and converted them into Christianity, almost en masse! Around that time, too, came the first schools."

You would not know what to read into these statements, but I do..as I knew Guru Paul personally, and heard much about Tom Harrison and spent time in that area, there are some Kelabits here in Melbourne (2)

Notice the difference between the statement "Missionaries chastised, converted them" and.. "through the influence of Guru Paul"..

Paul.. was Kelabit... not white. If you had met him.. you would never forget him.. an absolute character. His son became a Pastor also.

Tom Harrison was an atheist anthropologist who preferred them in their 'pagan' state for reasons of.... well..lets not be too specific here..but use ur imagination.

But to address one specific of your topic.. "convert all b4 the 2nd return" ?

We simply look to Jesus.. and the great comission.

Mat 28:18-19 "Go into all the world and make disciples"

Luke 24:44-49 "Thus it is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things."

This is why we go.. are sent.. and do what I do here also.. 'all nations'.

On Thursday a pair of Seventh Day Adventist godbotherers came to my door, but when I informed them that I'm a Satanist and that my partner is an Astrologer they beat quite a hasty retreat to the front gate, looking nervously over their shoulders as they went!

Speaking of weirdos, Tom Harrison was reputed to have gone nuts late in his career, and apparently went around ANU lopping the genitalia off various artefacts from Sarawak and Kalimantan before the men in the white coats took him away. Apparently he'd caught something from the missionaries he encountered in Sarawak...

CJ....or..perhaps he was just having some moral chickens come home to roost ?

I was not aware that he spent time at ANU..I only know his 'early' history.

Hey... point of order too.. on the prejudice thread.

You do the all too predictable.. I was simply underlining the existence of 'prejudice' in the Quran.. as a simple fact. How you get 'spreading hatred' out of 'pointing out obvious prejudice' ?

No..the Bible doesn't mention Muslims because they were not around.. I know that. I made the point in spite of that. The bible DOES have prejudice against homosexual conduct, satanism and spiritism and had you pointed that out, I would totally agree, I would not accuse you of spreading hate.

That article was by Irfan.. a sort of a whine about misunderstood muslims..and by now you should know that it is a hair trigger for me to point out some home truths.

So.. you still need to know Christ as everyone does,and (you) get away from this hiding behind 'you are spreading hate'. I'll make it easy for you.. come to Christ and then be the shining example you feel I should be in this department.

You are obviously using that as a kind of defense mechanism, and reading far more into what I say than is intended, so sooth your own soul and perhaps give sense of moral refuge?

I cannot see how demonstrating that a particular faith specifically vilifies another.. is 'spreading hate'. Can you support that contention on the basis of fact? Can you look at surah 9:30 and find any 'other' interpretation of it which is less vilfiying?

If you were a Jew, I have a feeling you would be quite interested in the 'content' of Mein Kampf

http://www.tafheem.net/main.html

looking at this 'tafsir'(interpetation) reveals clearly that the Muslims should wage war on Christians and Jews.. clear as a bell.
*27 and *28 refer.
Hizb Ut Tahrir defer to this scholar.(Maududi) You know my thoughts about them.

Certainly hats off to missionaries for such a small amount of people they have spread death and destruction that besides them only large armies have acheived. The word missionary should mean ethnic cleanser for that is exactly what a missionary does and seeks to do. A mercenary of superstition.

All gods are false gods including Jehova or what ever the latest pop name for that occult idol is now. To say a people are primitive and backward because they leave a ripe crop to waste because a bird flew over it is a bad judgement for somebody who believes in god. To ban abortion to please a god is exactly the same process. The belief in God afterall is in all and total fact paranoid superstition.

Yes birds appearing may be relics of ecological wisdom , endemic diseases of Africa , South America and the island world spread like wildfire as missionaries destroyed local culture. Taboos which prevented disease were destroyed.

The core Christian value of selfishness and greed also destroyed the community structure and value systems inherited in cultures and so the Christian value of invasion and conquer (Christianity is an invention of the Romans) made societies which co-existed along side of each other unbalanced.

Yes missionaries pat themselves on the back for giving a bandaid to the needy , but remember the bandaid is always and only given after the missionary has destroyed his/her victim.

Jesus is superstition , the occult poetry which claims jesus will come back when all has heard of him demonstrates the core ignorance of the cult as we know over 300,000 babies are born everyday and they cant hold the concept of monsters and spirits for another 5 to 6 years. This means zombies are delayed from rising from graveyards for 5 to 6 years from every single day.Still borns and late miscarriages, children dying by accident , disease and war delay the second coming for eternity. I hear Jesus saying "Doh!"

Classic Boazy trick: avoid looking completely stupid by discussing valid criticism on another thread on a different one.

Why didn't you just face the music on the other thread?

Dumb, ignorant, hateful and mendacious discourse. An excellent advertisement for your faith - not!

BOAZ...

Is it up to Christians to 'save the world'. It is an impossible task as it is only one faith of so very many. One mere belief system only where there are many non religious groups helping in the world.

I am saying that some tribes do have pagan beliefs according to us! Natural selection may occur here like animal species. So who is to say that converting to Christian ways is any more right for them.
I would say there are cases where remote peoples would've survived a lot of years without interference from outsiders.

Look at NZ in the 19th Century, with white men coming into the country as missionaries and 'converting' these tattoo covered Maori! They look absurd with a Bible in there hand. They ought to have been left be. Instead wars came of it and look today where The Treaty is at!

I want to say that Christians going into a new land as missionaries, have an agenda to 'convert'. Can't they just help people live better without it. Witness with works.

In my past I behaved the same whether 'in religion or out'. I do not bring knowing harm to others, I respect them, I treat them as I would expect to be treated. Is your upbringing, not the Bible in the long run. I am saying you don't have to be a Christian to be a nice person. I help others willingly as it is my nature to serve. Surely all beliefs out there have some similar tendency with their peoples. Is the only way they know how, being based on teachings, their own peoples history and that from the elders.

I do 'works' but I am not in religion. I have a lifestyle that doesn't impinge on anothers beliefs. IF sitting at the feet of an older adult as I nurse and wash their feet isn't where it is at (I am an aged care RN), well I may never be good enough. Look after our own people better and first. Another debate could arise on that one too.

CJ... watch that space.. ran out of posting opportunities. CJ I note you resorting to personal abuse.. again.. you know that's the sign of no argument. It is not 'my' faith..if it was you would be most welcome to reject it and by all means use 'me' as a valid reason. Such is not the case. 'The Faith'.... no matter how you perceive it's representation here.. is from God Almighty.. in Christ, and it is not about 'me' its about repentance and faith in God.. not to Boaz, nor to Boaz denomination. So... much as you might feel comforted by picking at my credibility or character.. you are still left with the actual Gospel..and your accountability to God. Be of good cheer..if you ever do turn your life around.. you don't need to tell me.. or join my mob... you can do it anywhere you choose.

Cakers.. it is not up to Christians to save the world.

It is up to Christians to proclaim Christ to the world. God does the saving.
Who is to say converting them is right for them ? :) I'll ask my friend Pauline when next I see her.. (she is a kelabit) and see how she reacts..she was rescued from one of those slow deaths in a jar when she was a baby.

BOAZ
I am happy your friend was saved from the slow death but I am also happy if water supplies and food does the same to millions of malnurished. I have saved someone from death, several times, from merely being a nurse of the aged. Though of course, the aged aren't getting any younger.

You are saying it isn't up to Christians to save the world. It is your God that does it. Too right Christians won't save the world. Hypocrisy is rife for starters but isn't for debate here.

Indeed, it is everyone's responsibility to be accountable to themselves and fellow human beings for your own conduct. There is so much hatred and war in the world, with anger appearing more and more in our streets. It is parents who are lacking the skills to do their job 'right'. I don't see any church converting the current behaviours in a hurry. I might start a thread on the latter; it frustrates the level of anger in our young people.

I guess we can only watch how we ourselves 'witness' to young people in the life example we set. Be kind, good and patient with others.

Christians and ANY religion can set examples by doing good for others but without the need to preach and convert via their own man made book.

Hi Cakers
humanly speaking I see your point. No argument there.

But in the case of the Gospel.. the good news.. I hope you wil attempt to appreciate the foundation and origin of the drive to 'convert' people.

I outlined the idea of the 'Great Commission' from the most oft quoted places in scripture. (about 3 posts back) Where Jesus himself... commanded.. 'go'... 'make disicples'.

The reason he thus commanded goes back to the very reason he came.

He did not enter the world to just be a 'moral teacher' or even a good bloke, or a healer.. he came.. as Son of God... and underlined this role by the signs he performed.

Given that the central truth of His coming is no less than the reconciliation of man to God... then it should be quite apparent why at least the choice or offer of that reconciliation be made known to the world. People are free to reject the Gospel.. and many, perhaps even most...do. That's their choice. Lets just hope they actually understood it prior to rejecting it.

Our role is to proclaim.. "Christ died...for our sins" and urge people to turn their lives around 180 deg to God on that basis.

Boazy: "CJ I note you resorting to personal abuse.. "

No, Boazy. I referred specifically to your discourse, i.e. your argument, including the ways that you choose to prosecute it.

Why is it that those who peddle some of the most hateful ideas in this forum so often claim to be personally attacked when their divisive and inflammatory vitriol is challenged vigorously?

I mean, Boazy wouldn't agree that he's "personally abusing" all Muslims when he continually attacks and denigrates the discourse of Islam, would he?

Hypocrisy is never becoming, particularly when it's so affected and precious.

BOAZ and CJ,
No offense but what ever the personal arguments are, well, it isn't answering the thread about are Christians to save the world.

I want to say to BOAZ that indeed, it is said to 'go' and spread the gospel to all the world, at least giving them the choice. That is what I remember and if Christians are helping a lot less fortunate peoples as they go about this, I would not say don't bother to confuse but just be a witness by example of the life you live.

Isn't that the trouble. Christianity is let so down by many who don't lead the life 24/7. Have to do it properly or otherwise hypocrisy is rife.

Anyway, if in trying to preach for example the Bible while helping these minority groups or otherwise, and the gospel is rejected, these people are no less sinners or evil than the rest of religions or indeed any non Christian groups. I guess it is exposure to and giving choice and never to right off anyone. That is one thing I feel clear on that to never right off anyone ever.

Why aren't other groups trying to get all people into their way of life. Just a thought. I can't see why there is the urgency with Christians.

I guess in the end we'll all find out one day. Meantime, I lead my life doing good and respecting others. I treat as I would wish to be treated. My behaviour was very much the same in and out of religion. I do not feel worse for being out of anything cultic. I feel all these exclusive paths/faiths/beliefs are indeed cults.

"When the Europeans arrived, we had the land and they had the Bible. We closed our eyes to pray and when we opened them, they had the land and we had the Bible." Desmond Tutu

Wobbles :) well put.....

some Televangelists.

"When they came, we were sick, they told us to pray.. and when we opened our eyes, they had our money and we were still sick"

Wheat and the weeds.. they both grow alongside each other.. till harvest.

Cakers.. regarding your important point about

a) "why are Christians so URGENT about proclaiming"
b) Other groups don't try to convert....

On b first... other groups DO.. and they do it in the same way as the televangelists. "Join our mob..and in paradise you will have recycled virgins you can deflower forever for your pleasure" (Refer the great scholar 'Ibn Katheer' for that little gem, not me.)

Islam has a branch called "da'wah" which is the missionary branch.
and..have you never encountered pesky Hari Krishnas?

Now..to the more important point. Christian Urgency.

Let me answer that with a quote:

a. "I am the bread of life" - Jn 6:48
b. "I am the light of the world" - Jn 8:12
c. "I am the door" - Jn 10:9
d. "I am the good shepherd" - Jn 10:11
e. "I am the resurrection and the life" - Jn 11:25
f. "I am the way, the truth, and the life" - Jn 14:6
g. "I am the vine" - Jn 15:5

More specifically, is this:

John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

ENCOUNTER WITH ETERNITY. That...is what happens when a person is faced with the words of the Lord. Jesus is clearly and unmistakably saying here..that to be one of Gods people... in His kingdom.. something must happen. "Born Again"...(read the whole chapter for more info)
That is how John describes "Repentance and Faith"

James says
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,"

I think the world would be a better place if people didn't feel the need to spread their views. Same goes for atheists.

Ironically then, if I wish to live up to this, I can't really spread my own view which is that everybody should damn well accept that there are other views out there, and ultimately, nobody will ever have a clue about the existence of god - and no, that's not an invitation to say why you're so certain it exists. The fact is, you can't be. The information you're using is dodgy.
It may be good enough for people who need to resort to ancient dogma written by the superstitious, but I have higher standards.

I don't get doorknockers very often, but when I do, my response is always: 'god wanted me to be an atheist.'

Technically, I'm an agnostic, but it doesn't quite have the same punchline as atheist.
And I dare say doorknockers need to appreciate a decent sense of humour if they're going to try and tell people how they should be living their lives - and beyond the fancy words, that's exactly what they're doing, and most non-religious people don't care for it one bit.

TRTL... I had to smile widely when I read your first line :)

I think the world would be a better place if people didn't feel the need to spread their views.

and..smiled more when I read your confession that THAT (the above) is.. 'a view' :)

At least you now realize the silliness of charging Christians with 'imposing their views' on others when all they/we are doing is exactly what you did.. 'expressing a view'

cheers mate

Attempting to ban RU486 is not just "expressing a view".
Constantly lobbying to ban abortions is not just "expressing a view".
Lobbying to ban sex education or pornography is not just "expressing a view".
Lobbying against the HPV vaccine is not just "expressing a view".
Lobbying against the teaching of evolution in science classes and attempting to get Intelligent Design taught in schools is not just "expressing a view".
Lobbying to get all embryonic stem cell research banned is not just "expressing a view".
Lobbying against gay rights is not just "expressing a view".