Yuyutsu,

You’re right to point out that Jesus often taught people where they were, not where He was. That’s the essence of good teaching - to meet others with compassion and adjust the lesson to their capacity.

But even if forgiveness is just a "remedial virtue," as you suggest - a stepping stone toward transcendence - it’s still what was being taught. And it’s still what’s being ignored by those who, in this very thread, have reframed grace as weakness and "turning the other cheek" as naïve.

If forgiveness is a temporary tool to help humans move beyond vengeance, then surely the current flood of justified anger, moral crusades, and talk of reckoning reveals just how necessary that tool still is.

As for your "77 times" question, yes, to forgive again and again requires us to first encounter conflict. But that doesn’t mean seeking or justifying it. You don’t teach someone to forgive by manufacturing enemies. And you don’t honour Christ’s teaching by quoting it one moment and undermining its spirit the next.

The metaphor about the camel is clever, but I’m not the one forcing scripture into literalism. I’m simply pointing out the disconnect between invoking Christ’s words and pursuing a narrative driven by punishment and revival through cultural conquest.

If we’ve moved beyond forgiveness, as you imply, then what are we offering in its place? Silence? Surrender? Or just a more elegant excuse for the same old cycle?

ah ... The Dennis Denuto defence....its the vibe or in this case the tone.

"You might not be using the word vengeance, but the tone is unmistakable."

No one is talking about vengeance except for you but you see it everywhere.

You know, if you're the only one hearing the dog whistle, you're the dog.

Yes, mhaze, tone matters - especially when it comes from people with power and platforms.

When Trump says we need to "beat the hell out of radical-left lunatics," or when posters frame Kirk’s death as a cultural reckoning and celebrate the coming "pendulum swing," that’s not just "consequences." That’s escalation. That’s how movements prime their base emotionally before any policy even enters the conversation.

But sure, maybe no one has used the word "vengeance" outright. That doesn’t mean the vibe isn’t clear - and pretending not to notice that vibe, while quoting people like John Nolte claiming there's a literal "ongoing murder campaign" against conservatives, is more revealing than you think.

As for the dog whistle line, it only works if there’s no broader context. But I’m not the only one hearing this. Plenty of people across the political spectrum are pointing out how quickly Kirk’s death is being used to justify moral retrenchment, purging, and rhetorical hardening.

Sometimes, the dog whistle isn’t a whistle. It’s a bullhorn. And no amount of sarcasm about "vibes" changes what’s being signalled loud and clear.

It’s not just what’s said, it’s what’s implied, what’s repeated, and what kinds of reactions are rewarded. That’s tone. That’s direction. That’s how culture shifts.

If you want to talk about consequences, fine. But if you want to pretend the tone hasn’t changed - and that no one’s aiming for payback - then yes, I’m going to call that out.

Totally agree John,

When Trump said; “beat the hell out of radical-left lunatics.” it would be interpreted by Trumps lunatic fringe, fringe, to do just that, it would be a call to arms in the American way, guns blazing and take no prisoners. For our resident Trumpsters it means, dust off the Buffalo Horn outfit and slap on the red, white and blue face paint! Charge!

"maybe no one has used the word "vengeance" outright. "

Not true. Someone did....constantly. You.

But no one else is talking about vengeance. Not me. Not anyone at the Kirk Memorial. Not Nolte in the passage I quoted. But you see it everywhere because you want it be true. Not even Trump in the quote you dug up. Just pointing out that the thigs on the left need to be confronted isn't seeking vengeance. (BTW were you equally vexed when Obama recommended to his henchman that they bring a gun to a knife fight, or punch back twice as hard? Didn't think so.)

But this is standard JD. When you can't deal with the actual views, create others and then desperately try to defend the fabrication with the "oh you implied it" defence.

You say there is vengeance in the air. Where is it? This week three murderers or attempted murderers were in US courts. All were from the left. All targeting people from the right. Where's this vengeance you keep thinking you see?

Dear John,

I completely agree of course.

If one has already descended into hate, then forgiveness is the answer.

«If we’ve moved beyond forgiveness, as you imply, then what are we offering in its place? Silence? Surrender? Or just a more elegant excuse for the same old cycle?»

Well surely you already know the answer - it is LOVE!

Indeed, Jesus said: "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."