I want to express my sympathy for the nurses sacked over anti Israeli comments made in recent times. While their comments would not be something I'd personally make, I believe it's important to consider their situation from a broader perspective.

We can't let offhand comments or jokes decide someone's career, especially when we have a shortage of healthcare workers. Many people make similar comments daily without consequences, but we just don’t hear or see them.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-02-12/nsw-health-minister-on-online-doctor-veifer-video/104926206

Comments like these have been around for years, but with modern technology, we now see these moments played out online. This raises questions about free speech and principles of forgiveness. Should every offhand comment be grounds for dismissal? People need to toughen up in my view and recognise that all types of commentary are part of public discourse - and not hold onto to excessive amounts of baggage - and that means forgiveness.

I hope these nurses can eventually return to their jobs, with my view they’ve become easy targets or 'whipping posts' rather than focusing on the deeper issues at hand, like addressing the ongoing conflict in Gaza.

This is another outrageous example of the enemy within. You should be ashamed of yourself, Nathan.

Hi NathanJ

I'm not all that surprised or angered by the fact the Muslim nurses had animosity towards IDF soldiers at this moment in time.
But even if what they said was only said in the heat of the moment, they were career ending comments nonetheless.
They should not have been on that website during working hours anyway.

I don't like it that Jews are rallying together and making coordinated efforts to try and catch out anyone with criticism, like they're hunting NAZI war criminals.
I think there's plenty of reasons for criticism, and obviously some have reason to feel more strongly than others.
I'm not sure how I feel about them being charged.

If the nurses had been Israelis and had made comments
about Palestinians - would the results and outcomes
have been the same?

Also, we should question Max Veifer's motives. He's
the Israeli influencer who "exposed" the NSW nurses.
It seems he achieved what he wanted.

All a bit suss.

Hi Nathan,

Thanks for this discussion and for trying to bring in some
balance in this storm in a teacup

The two ex-nurses did not make any “off the cuff” comments.

Like other people who let the ABC and other Lefist sites to do their thinking, Nathan perhaps, doesn't bother to read his own references. The female ex-nurse said, “I won't treat them, I will kill them”. The male ex- nurse , who falsely claimed to be a doctor, referred to Israelis as “dogs”.

Nathan, who sometimes regales us with his medical problems and his consequent reliance on the Australian medical system, might like to ponder the possibility of finding himself at the mercy of such people who might have a grudge against him or who hate him for some reason.

Only a tiny minority of people (including the Muslim community) of die-hards and ideologues would agree with Nathan, or try to make excuses for these two dreadful people.

If they are not citizens, their feet should not touch the ground on the way out of our country.

People with small screens are not able to see the
bigger picture.

Unfortunately.

Ttbn

I’m impressed with your ability to engage with the emotionally stunted and infantile cowards, as you so often do.

Be careful. When you follow the masses - sometimes
the M is silent.

Foxy,
Many Lithuanians living in Australia must be working overtime trying to distance themselves from the likes of you ! Hard to tell if you're extremely clever or plain stupid but they aways do say there's a very fine line between the two !

Indyvidual,

Nobody cares - work harder.

Indyvidual,

Still there are many people is various communities
here in Australia who admire others because they are
a reflection of what they wish they could be.
Take Peter Dutton and Trump as just one example.

I don't have bigger balls than others. It's only that mine
have to be put on my chest to avoid chaffing.

"Many Lithuanians living in Australia must be working overtime trying to distance themselves from the likes of you ! Hard to tell if you're extremely clever or plain stupid but they always do say there's a very fine line between the two !"

I saw the a video the other day of Lithuanians marching in Vilnius.
Talking about how they were willing to fight Russia themselves.

Also saw how the Baltic states disconnected from the Russia power grid saying 'Goodbye Russia Goodbye Lenin', next day there was a 120% increase in power prices.

For both of those reasons, I'm going to go with 'plain stupid'
- 'Chihuahua's go yap-yap-yap-yap-yap'.

No offense to Foxy.

Dan,

I like the idea of being able to express my opinions on the codswallop that “emotionally stunted and infantile cowards” blurt out. Do you suggest that I should not?

Indyvidual,

Foxy is not Lithuanian. She is Australian, born here. She just just doesn't like the idea. Many first generations born in Australia of immigrants have identity problems. It makes them malcontented, confused and often nasty, whingeing about the country their parents adopted.

My family has been here for 200 years; but I grew up among the first migrants to arrive after the war, including those from Eastern European countries like Lithuania. They were generally decent, hard-working people, wanting to fit in and share. Can't say the same about some of the kids they didn't bring with them.

I firmly believe that the present is linked to the
past.
I believe in telling the true story of a nation's
history.

Hi AC,

My family lost a great deal because of the Soviet occupation
of Lithuania. As did so many Lithuaniansb
Lithuanians continued to fight for their
freedom - which was re-instated in 1990. Descriging them as
you did was disrespectul and inappropriate.

You would not do that with our Australian diggers.
Bad show on your part.

I don't have an identity problem.
ttbn does. But that's his problem, not mine.

If an Australian Jewish medical professional were found online bragging about having murdered Muslim patients and proposing to do so again, I hope and expect the reaction would be exactly the same – public disgust and outrage, a police investigation into whether there was any truth to the claims, and immediate dismissal.

I have often defended free speech in these forums, but free speech does not extend to death threats. And a medical professional who has proposed to kill patients because of their nationality deserves to be sacked and have their licence revoked.

Oh yeah, they killed seven Israelis with one blow...
http://www.storynory.com/the-brave-little-tailor/

All these two little "heroes" actually did was to send out an electromagnetic string of 0's and 1's into the air: I trust they didn't even know how it worked and used pre-fabricated toys instead.

They should be charged with air-pollution and sent to bed straight after supper without ice-cream for a whole week!

Ttbn:
# I like the idea of being able to express my opinions on the codswallop that “emotionally stunted and infantile cowards” blurt out. Do you suggest that I should not?#

Short answer:
It’s your life and your call, how you respond to traitors. As I stated (meaningfully), I admire your ability to contain your disgust with this lot, ( now all sitting on the one branch and chirping diligently to the secular leftist call ). We now have most of the treacherous criminals lined up in a row above!

?What would you really love to do with them, if you could escape the consequences of your hearts desire?

Is it permissible to follow the lead of the murderous swine who offered death threats to Jews in their Hospital precinct, and were given a get out of jail free card by Australian Government top officials?

Hi Foxy,
"My family lost a great deal because of the Soviet occupation
of Lithuania. As did so many Lithuanians
Lithuanians continued to fight for their
freedom - which was re-instated in 1990. Describing them as
you did was disrespectul and inappropriate."

Disrespectful maybe, inappropriate not so much.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, Foxy...

All the Baltic states are Chihuahua countries, it's an apt description. I've been watching their antics.
If they don't like the criticism, then they should stop acting that way.
Lithuania is like the capital of Russian hatred and co-ordinated efforts to destroy and balkanise the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Russia_Forum

I'm glad the Baltic States disconnected from BRELL.
I hope they like paying the higher power prices.
They don't deserve any benefits from Russia.

You talk about unity but the Lithuanians are as bad as one can get when it comes to being hateful and intolerant and willing to sow further discontent.

And FYI, Australia also acts like a Chihuahua state anytime there's an incident with China, we send military planes over to the South China Sea to spy and provocate, and then when a Chinese plane flies up and releases happy fireworks upon the the Australia warmongering wanna-be's...

'Chihuahua's go yap-yap-yap-yap-yap'.

I knew my comments wouldn't be popular here with some, but I'm not here to be part of a popularity contest.

These two nurses are expressing how so many feel (not in the best way) about their disenfranchisement with the ongoing, unresolved conflict between Israel/Hamas and the huge lives lost as a result in Gaza.

We know the Israeli Government has overreacted to what originally occurred as an attack and from that you are going to get a domino effect. These comments from the two nurses are part of that effect.

Silencing these people and trying to get rid of them is not the answer. Getting to the root cause of the issue is and coming to a solution.

Of course it's easier to go after these two nurses. They're easy targets and you can use them to deflect from your failures in the area of Gaza/Israel. Penny Wong has been pretty average in the whole foreign affairs area, alongside the Prime Minister, with Peter Dutton and the Opposition offering nothing much in terms of real alternatives. We've also had poor policies and outcomes from the United States and you could argue other organisations like the U.N could have done a better job.

We have people here who gladly express their own views but are outraged when others do the same thing. They actively promote silencing when they feel it's appropriate, rather than actively discussing the matter at hand and finding a solution.

Whilst the decision makers fail, whilst political leaders dither and more lives will no doubt be lost into the future with this conflict in Gaza, these nurses pay the price (and to my knowledge have ended no lives)- but the decision makers in real terms face nothing!

I will reply to some individuals over time.

Dan,

I suppose they could be viewed as traitors. We could even wonder what they get up to in real life; but I think it's all talk. Most of it regurgitated from the appalling ABC and similar influences. Not even their own opinions.

I have to say that it's a waste of time arguing with them. It's like talking to a brick wall; they are that thick.

What would I like to do with them? Let's just say I would have the thought police after me if I put that into print. On the other hand, it's good to be aware that there are some really weird people lurking out there, and Australia is in big trouble because they are forced to vote.

However, there are good ones here making it worthwhile. You would probably agree with me as to who they are.

Hell’s Bells!

I just saw the post above from our friend Nathan.

He reckons we know that the "Israeli Government has overreacted to what originally occurred as an attack". Sick.
.

Well, that’s a nice sensible answer, one I can agree with.

We can observe from the coward fold here, the world view of the Western Democracies. Terrorists have now become its love-child; simply achieved by the view of “equivalence”. IE in simple terms, if terrorist organisations exist, the simple minded conclude, there must be a greater evil creating them, which in their strange rational observation, creates in them a self loathing for being part of the problem personally, creating a need to fall down on the side of the terrorists, the terrorists judged in their mind, as arising from oppression. A view created from a very false sense of guilt and a misjudged responsibility towards rectifying power imbalance, equating to “ sympathy”. Supporting terrorism is a mental illness.

Their simplistic world view is rationalised in these terms, for example, the terrorist we know as Hamas and Hezbollah, are a creation of Israeli oppression; an absurd and skewed view of historical reality, resulting in blind support for Palestinian Jihad and it’s religious war against Israel in particular, and the Western World in general; us. The blind sided left totally misunderstands the danger of their equivocation.

Which now brings us to the judgment table on the subject of terrorists implanted into our own communities, highlighted by the accidental honesty of the two Muslim nurses and their expression of genuine intent to kill Jews at Bankstown Hospital. Terrorism.

There are a multiple of serious offences committed by the pair which should see them behind bars: Have they been charged, apparently not; are they released on bail? apparently not necessary, since no charges are laid against the blatant and proved offences. A threat to kill has a ten year sentence alone, but hate crimes such as they’ve demonstrated, can add significantly to that sentence.

Glad you mentioned 'threat to kill'. That's exactly what the female nurse threatened. ABC fans, please note that the alleged threat was recorded and reported in the ABC reference supplied by Nathan J. The fans believe everything the ABC says.

"I suppose they could be viewed as traitors."

Oh what a total crock of shite.

You two act like Australians are traitors for not supporting Israel.
You two are as single minded as they come.
We live in Australia not Israel.
We're Aussies, not Jews.

You two act like we're all Israelis, and that there are a few self hating Jews on Team Israel OLO.

"I have to say that it's a waste of time arguing with them. It's like talking to a brick wall; they are that thick."

You nitwits have it all backwards.
You're the ones who are traitors.
You're the ones who align themselves with a foreign power.

Traitor, do you even know what the word means.
You think that not supporting Israel means we support Islamic extremists.

Like being ANTI-GENOCIDE isn't a valid position.
Like we all must support the killing of women and kids or we're not Australian.
Why don't you just move to Israel, and join some Israeli OLO forum instead?
That's where you'd both be more at home.

"What would I like to do with them? Let's just say I would have the thought police after me if I put that into print."
- You are an enemy of Australia, an enemy of Australians right to hold their own opinions, all you do is alienate a segment of your own country because you consider their views invalid.

You can't accept others views.
That makes you more commie or NAZI-like than people who actually support democracy, and the right of every citizen to hold their own views without being sent to internment camps.
It's disgusting.

Hi NathanJ,
I think my comments on this topic are as middle ground as you are going to reasonably get.
We just can't have people like that holding prejudiced views when it comes to administering peoples health.

"Of course it's easier to go after these two nurses. They're easy targets and you can use them to deflect from your failures in the area of Gaza/Israel."
- You act like they're the victims, but they're the ones whom we all put our trust in and have a duty of care to administer their profession without prejudice.

No matter whether or not they had valid reasons to be angry towards a member of the IDF, (and I even agreed that it wasn't unreasonable to think they would feel strongly about the Israel / Gaza issue) the moment they said what they did, it wasn't about Israel and Gaza anymore.

It's about the integrity of our public health system.
And as I said they shouldn't have been on the damn website during work hours anyway.
Don't they have enough random people to talk to and care for in the course of their employment that they need to go on chat-roulette to meet more people?

All of us have probably shot our mouths off at the wrong time in our lives, but they brought their entire profession into disrepute.

How much attention are they paying to the needs of their patients if they're busy on chat roulette all day at work?
They should've been let go just for that.

I support everyone's right to hold an opinion.
But once you put it out there for all to consider -
Then I also reserve a right to say someone's opinion is stupid, if I think it is.

If you don't wish to risk someone saying your opinion is dumb, then don't say dumb shite, that's the risk you take when you share your 2 cents worth.

You think Israeli rights are more important than human rights.
I say your priorities and moral compass is totally up the shite.
And I think it's vile and disgusting.

... And I don't even support multiculturalism as a policy OR Islam.

I advise the 2 nurses to start their own business cleaning or something, because no-one is going to want their own business tarnished by employing them, and they damn well don't deserve employment working for a government paycheck.

Hi NahanJ

Most violent racists justify themselves with a narrative based on grievance and misplaced reciprocity. When I lived in London in the 1980s, the IRA murdered civilians by bombing shops and pubs. Some Brits blamed and hated all Irish people for it. My next-door-neighbour, who was from Limerick, was beaten up at our local Tube station because he had an Irish accent (the Limerick accent is a bit odd, bit definitely not Belfast – but that didn’t matter to his assailants). I don’t know whether he supported the IRA (through from our conversations, I think not). But he definitely did not deserve the beating.

It is racist to assume that someone from a particular religion, ethnicity or nationality is culpable because of things done by another person or organisation from the same religion, ethnicity or nationality. It is a criminal offence to murder, assault, or threaten someone because of their race or religion (or for any other reason).

The nurses in the video were vile, violent, racists. Thy were also under a legal and professional obligation to treat every patient they encounter with dignity and respect and to make their patients’ welfare their paramount concern. How can you possibly think that a Jewish patient presenting at a public hospital could be comfortable if one of these was their nurse?

Another thing that is so childish and tiresome about people defending Islamic extremists in this country is their bleating about what we would say if “it was Jews threatening Muslims”.

There is no Jews versus Muslims here. There is no competition. And, as far as I'm aware, not one of the 100,000 Jews in Australia has ever threatened the 800,000 Muslims in the way that the two creatures in question have done.

Two creatures that the Muslim community has unreservedly condemned, by the way.

Saying ‘what about the Jews’ is just another exhibition of Jew-hatred. You don't see these apologists for extremism saying ‘what about the Christians’; ‘what about the Hindus’; ‘what about the Buddhists’.

All a bit suss.
Foxy,
They'd have been pumped off by now whilst the hospital burned down !

Multicultural extremists behave worse in the West than they do in their homeland. They are coddled by politicians, activists, and the media who seem to think any failure of behaviour from migrant communities represents a failure of them specifically for preaching a political philosophy that doesn’t work.

No one is going to deny their ancestries in this country.
Nor should they. Especially when so many here are denied being
a "true" Aussie, by the "True Blue" pygmy brigade.

________________________________________________________________

Armchair Critic,

I have no wish to argue with you about Lithuania. History is
clear about Stalin's score in victims tortured, starved, and
murdered. Of creating panic and chaos and of producing
millions of bodies, of refugees, and homeless.

Of buiklding and expanding concentration camps. in which
millions of innocent victims would perish.

Terror was used to deal with their domestic opposition.

It's no wonder that those who were able fought back. Just
as Ukraine is doing today against Putin.

People will always continue to fight for their freedom. No
matter how long it may take.

BTW - I've tried to explain to you in the past. I am not
against the Russian people. My Gran was Russian. It's the
Soviet regime that I found problematic. Just as I am not
against Jewish people. It's the policies of the Israeli
government and - the actions of Hamas that I find troublesome.

I agree that this is, partially, a freedom of speech issue. But freedom of speech has been so eroded over the past 5 years, that it hardly seems to matter any longer.

Nonetheless, these people are free to spout their Jew hatred to their heart's content as far as I'm concerned. (Of course, people should also be free to spout their hatred of the Koran to their heart's content as well but we all know how that would end). What they don't have a right to do is assert that they have and/or will use their privileged government job to facilitate their hatred. Or more precisely, they do have that right but shouldn't expect to retain their government position.

Being sacked and deregistered was the right call and it should end there UNLESS it can be shown they indeed did act on their claims. ie that they actually caused harm to the object of their hate.

Sack 'em. Remove 'em. Find out why they were able to operate in the system while having these views. We know why, but it should be explored anyway.

If we had a policeman saying he targeted drivers who were women or teenagers or old men, no one would have the slightest compunction about throwing the book at him. Same here.

The only reason there is dispute is that there are many on our community whose antisemitism is such that they sympathise with these nurses rather than their victims.

Hi Nathan,

The tragedy of the two nurses was that they let their hatred get the better of their humanity. I am sorry that your understanding of medical ethics is even more slap dash than the police check of medical records to determine whether anyone was harmed.

Did you know that like-minded people to you and Foxy thought they would prove a stitch up with the unedited version, but apparently it was more damning?

No place for anyone in health with that mindset regardless of their ability. Sad

"Many Lithuanians living in Australia must be working overtime trying to distance themselves from the likes of you ! "

In the dark days of 1941/2, the Holocaust was launched in most eastern European countries as they were overrun by the Wehrmacht's Barbarossa campaign. In many of those countries, local partisans sided with the Nazis on the basis that they were freeing them from the Soviet yoke. Many, already holding antisemitic view helped the Nazis 'deal' with their Jews.

Lithuania had around 220,000 Jews pre-war. By 1943 that had been reduced by 95%. This was the highest percentage loss of any eastern European nation. And the reason for that was the enthusiastic help the Lithuanians gave the Nazi occupation forces in rounding up the Jews and killing them.

Indeed German commanders commented upon the way Lithuanians militia worked often unsupervised to clear towns and villages of Jews. One commander observed that, even though his troops were reticent about killing Jewish women and children, the Lithuanian forces showed no such reticence. What's more, the Lithuanian pogrom against their local Jews was launched even before the German army arrived.

I suspects Foxy's antisemitism fits very neatly into the general views of the Lithuanian diaspora.

As mhaze says, freedom of speech has been eroded over the years. But it might not be known that freedom of speech has never been guaranteed in Australia; it is merely an “implied” right.

So we can safely say that these two Jew-haters do not have the right to say what they did. However, that means that the rest of us don't, either.

UPA Senator Ralph Babet intends to present a Bill to include the right of free speech in the Constitution. Ever the optimist!

mhaze

A good history lesson for the ignorant.

The same can be said about the Ukrainians some people are sympathising with currently. They actually supplied guards for the Nazi death camps. Putin still calls them Nazis.

mhaze,

World War II produced tens of millions of victims.
Some were combatans, some civilian casualties of the war.
Others were victims of genocide planned by the warring
powers - the Nazis and the Bolsheviks.

Both the Nazis and the Communists had committted
unheard of cruelties.

Concentration camps on both sides of the front - operated
at a high pitch prior to and and during the war years.

While the USSR policy of mass murder preceded that of
Nazi Germany, most notably with the artificial Ukrainian
famine of 1932-33, the wholesale destruction of the Russian
peasantry, and later of the peasantry and intelligensia in
the occupied territories as well.

The Nazis soon matched Soviet terror with their wholesale
slaughter of Jews, and others, in equal numbers, if not
proportions of their populations. As stated in "The New KGB".

In accomplishing their mutual goals , the dictators used
their respective political parties. the Communist Party of
the USSR and the Nationalist Socialist Workers'Party, to rid
their societies of all political opposition.

Each party had its enforcers. the communists -their NKVD
(now KGB) and the Nazis - the Gestapo.

Both parties used informers,collaborators, and assistants
from among the very people they were
out to enslave or destroy.

Some asisted voluntarily, while others assisted out of fear
or weakness.

There were also, of course, numerous courageous men and women
who refused to participate in the subjugation and destruction
of the targeted groups and individuals. There were Christians
who interceded with their lives and those of their familes to
save Jews. And there were Jews who did the same.

These heroes embody human nobility in its highest form and
stand out as beacons in the otherwise bleak history of World
War II.

cont'd ...

mhaze,

Amongst the evil minions of the Gestapo and the NKVD
(now KGB)- were Christians, and Jews, and Germans,
and Russians, members of all nations (including the
British) caught in the merciless war.

No nation, no faith, no race, was free of collaborators
or cowards. No group was spared from killers and traitors
in their midst.

Some of these villains perished. some were captured and
were punished.for the most part shortly aftr the conclusion
of the war. Others accepted retribution. dying after, as did
Stalin and Hitler - the evil architects themselves - without
having been brought to justice.

As I stated early on this forum - while half of the criminals
the Nazis,
have been purseud all over the world, the other half the the
communist criminal;s sat as judges in Nuremberg, and later were
given tacit permission to continue to expand their
draconian systems to raise torture, suppression, and murder
to a science. Which still persists to this day.

As for me and your accusation of antisemitism?

I have lived and worked all of my life and have mixed with
a wide variety of people of different cultures and religions.
I have not experienced or encountered any accusations of
antisemitism directed at me until I came across people
like you, on this forum.

Foxy.

All of that is true or at least arguable. Hitler and Stalin were mass murderers on a scale rarely seen in history until they were surpassed by the Asian maniacs later in the century (Mao, Kim, Pol Pot).

But that wasn't really my point. Among these overriding murderous regimes were little racial tensions that spilled over into monumental atrocities. Each of the countries conquered by Hitler and Stalin had their own factions that sought to eliminate their enemies.

And the main enemy were the Jews. So The eastern European peoples, or at least a portion of them, took the opportunity to reek havoc on their Jewish demographic. The Poles, Ukrainians, Estonians among others gleefully helped the Nazis with their own version of the Holocaust. But chief among these were the Lithuanians who wiped out a greater portion of their Jewish population than any other nation, including the Germans. Lithuanian militia were formed, even before the Germn take-over, to start the massacre of the hated Jew. Mass graves. Entire villages destroyed. Women and children treated worse than almost anywhere else.

Sure, many of these Lithuanian men might have harboured misgivings and only did it out of fear of not going along. And we know of some who actively worked to save Jews here and there. But antisemitism was rife in the nation and was unleashed upon a helpless Jewish population with a ferocity not seen elsewhere. It is estimated that up to 50% of the native Lithuanian men were involved in their little version of the Holocaust.

That sort of national trait doesn't disappear in one or two generations

We do have one person here so far seeing this as partially a free speech issue (mhaze) and that's a good start.

We still have a lot of people ignoring the bigger issues alongside the need to get to the root cause of this entire Israel/Gaza/Hamas conflict.

It's also a question of comments and actual realities. So far to my knowledge these nurses have committed no negative activity towards any patient. If they truly felt the way they did in terms of these comments they've had a long time to take action.

As a vegetarian, I hold strong views on animal rights. I consider the killing of animals by humans for consumption to be an evil, disgusting activity and individuals that consume animal flesh are not people I hold in high regard - but my reality of life approach and view is totally different.

I respect individuals and their free choice re food consumption and I treat individuals that eat flesh with basic common decency like I would others in a physical space.

They are my own personal feelings and go nowhere beyond my personal space, but I still hold them. Someone could record them if I was talking about them which actually do, but they would taken completely out of context.

Finally, we have huge numbers of people, innocent civilians and others who have died or suffered due to the actions of Hamas and the Israeli Government, alongside political leaders who have failed to get a positive outcome, but I see very few people here calling for them to resign, lose jobs or be thrown out of office. So it's a matter of priorities.

I wish the ones truly responsible for the current situation in Gaza/Israel would cease in full their current actions and release all hostages, with Australia taking stronger action in this area, not spending excessive amounts of time going after two people making some comments now online disliked by a few.

"I have no wish to argue with you about Lithuania. History is
clear about Stalin's score in victims tortured, starved, and
murdered. Of creating panic and chaos and of producing
millions of bodies, of refugees, and homeless.

Of buiklding and expanding concentration camps. in which
millions of innocent victims would perish.

Terror was used to deal with their domestic opposition.

It's no wonder that those who were able fought back. Just
as Ukraine is doing today against Putin.

People will always continue to fight for their freedom. No
matter how long it may take."

THERE WAS FREEDOM, THERE WAS PEACE.
How does the past justify the present?
It's the west that wanted a war which would justify sanctions to create a political crisis in Russia to oust Putin, and then isolate China. It's the west which wanted to bring NATO to Russia's borders, it's the west which started a coup in Ukraine to overthrow the country and then use them as cannon fodder to fight Russia, now after a million dead and the war lost, the west wants to negotiate when it's Russia that gets to set terms. Now the West wants a refund on money lost, like a million dead and a war lost wasn't a big enough catastrophe on it's own, and even more disgusting is that with peace on the horizon, Europe still want to find a way to win or keep the Ukrainians dying, for their own selfish interests.

As for the USSR, it was Jews that bankrolled and created that monster.

mhaze,

As we can see from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
: history lies at the heart of every conflict and a true
and unbiased understanding of the past offers a better
understanding.

It's important to remember that the double occupation of
Lithuania by the Soviets and then by the Germans was an
exceedingly violent break with the previous history of
Jews in Lithuania.

Though the Germans had not trouble finding Lithuanians
to kill Jews what happened during the previous Soviet
occupation prior to the German must be understood. It
had no precedent in previous Lithuanian policy or
in the history of Lithuanian- Jewish relations.

Lithuania was a significant center of Jewish cultural,
economic, and intellectual life before WWII according
to the US Holocaust Memorial Museum. The pre-war Jewish
population was approx. 160,000, or 7% of the total
population.

The city of Vilnius had a sizeable Jewish population and
was a major center for Jewish learning and numerous
synagogues earning the nickname of "Jerusalem of the North".

There are numerous Lithuanian Jews living in Israel today.
Lithuanian Jews had a distinct dialect of Yiddish and
they played a significant role in Jewish intellectual
movements like Zionism and socialist thought.

In today's Lithuania monuments and memorials have been built that
acknowledge the past. Synagogues restored.

For its part the Lithuanian government also focuses on the
Lithuanian victims of the Soviet occupation.Explaining both sides
of any conflict often leads to a better understanding.

Especially true of the Israeli- Palestinian conflict and the
feelings of the people on both sides.

It may also take time for generations to recover.

Especially, when in the past - many Nazi criminals have been
pursued, tried, and punished ,while many Soviet criminals who escaped
to Israel and were not handed over on extradition requests by Lithuania.

I'm so glad that the Lithuanian government is at least
trying to restore Jewish culture - back into Lithuania.

mhaze,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lithuanians_Righteous_Among_the_Nations#:

cont'd:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lithuanian_Righteous_Among_the_Nations#:

Foxy,

Indyvidual originally opined that your antisemitic views wouldn't sit well with the Lithuanian community.

I was merely pointing out that, given the extreme antisemitic history of Lithuania, its much more likely that your views would be supported by the majority of the Lithuanian diaspora.

That there were some Lithuanians who tried to save the Jews is very true....I already said that.

But what is undeniable is that a plurality, and probably a majority, of Lithuanians in the early 1940s enthusiastically took part in and often led the murder and massacre of 95% of the Lithuanian Jews.

The Simon Wiesenthal Center has heavily criticised Lithuania for its unwillingness to prosecute collaborators. Recently a Lithuanian court ruled that displaying the swastika was legal because they were symbols of "Lithuania's historical heritage."!!

"I have not experienced or encountered any accusations of antisemitism directed at me until I came across people like you, on this forum."

Prior to 7 October 2023 I likewise would not have thought of you as particularly antisemitic. But your attitude since then has revealed a deep animosity to the Jew which, I suspect, derives from a cultural animosity to Jews.

"As for the USSR, it was Jews that bankrolled and created that monster."

Of course they did. Its right there in the Protocol of the Elders of Zion!!</sarc>

Honestly, the stuff people will fall for.

Good on you, mhaze.

mhaze,
It serves no purpose to compare people of the 1940's to people of today ! It serves even less purpose to bring up a thousand year old gripe & pester today's people with it. So, that conflict has done nothing more than perpetuate an ancient gripe resulting in so much utterly unnecessary misery ! Human stupidity really is boundless when allowed to run wild !

"Of course they did. Its right there in the Protocol of the Elders of Zion!!</sarc>"
- Or the Jews own archives...
History doesn't change just because the truth is uncomfortable for you...
http://x.com/LetsGoBrando45/status/1885069555531174041
You pair are 'beyond the pale', if you know what that means.

http://x.com/DrLoupis/status/1858071266348982675
http://x.com/PastUncensored/status/1823927251576004962
http://x.com/Rachel_442/status/1755793920943124860
http://x.com/DolorsHaze/status/1888993307063144779
http://x.com/LetsGoBrando45/status/1840269626577694772

Enjoy.

"It serves no purpose to compare people of the 1940's to people of today"

You claimed the Lithuanian diaspora would not like Foxy's views. I was pointing out that based on their history, they likely approved of Foxy's views. Cultural attitudes like this take many generations to change, not one or two.

I have no idea what your rave about a "thousand year old gripe" was about.

AC,

I'll wager that you can find thousands of like-minded folk who spout this rubbish on the WWW. It doesn't make it so because they are all yelling in an echo chamber, shouting the same falsehoods so often they think it becomes the truth.

There were Jewish Bolsheviks. Of course there were also Jewish Mensheviks but these conspiracy theorists rapidly ignore that. When you look at the data behind these claims, it doesn't exist beyond that ie there were some Jews involved, some of them had wealth, therefore they controlled and orchestrated the whole thing. That's the level of 'thinking' for want of a better word.

Just because the rooster crows at sunrise, doesn't mean the rooster caused the sun to rise.

The notion of a "Jewish-Bolshevik conspiracy" is a myth rooted in antisemitic propaganda, often used to vilify Jewish people by associating them with communism and attributing to them a nefarious, global plot to subvert nations. Here are several arguments and historical facts that debunk this conspiracy theory:

1. Diversity of Bolshevik Leadership:
The leadership of the Bolshevik party was not predominantly Jewish. While there were Jewish members, including notable figures like Leon Trotsky, the majority of key figures were not Jewish. Lenin (Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov) was of Russian and Kalmyk ancestry, Joseph Stalin was Georgian, and others like Felix Dzerzhinsky were Polish. The ethnic composition of the Bolshevik leadership was diverse, reflecting the multinational character of the Russian Empire.

2. Misinterpretation of Statistics:
Antisemitic propaganda often cites the disproportionate number of Jews in the early Soviet government as evidence of a conspiracy. However, this misrepresents the situation. Jews, facing discrimination and oppression in Tsarist Russia, were more urbanized than the general population, meaning they were closer to the revolutionary action

3. Anti-Jewish Policies in the USSR:
The Soviet Union, under Stalin, eventually enacted anti-Semitic policies. The purges in the 1930s targeted many Jewish Bolsheviks alongside others directly contradicting the idea of a Jewish-controlled Bolshevik state.

4. Historical Context of Propaganda:
The myth was significantly propagated by the Nazis during WWII to justify the persecution of Jews. This was a deliberate manipulation of facts to serve an ideological agenda rather than an accurate historical account.

5. Scholarly Consensus:
Modern historians overwhelmingly reject the conspiracy theory. They argue that while some Jews were indeed involved in the Bolshevik movement, just as members of many ethnic groups were, this involvement was not indicative of a secret, unified Jewish political agenda. The narrative of a Jewish-Bolshevik conspiracy is seen as a form of scapegoating which has no foundation in credible, scholarly research.
In essence, the Jewish-Bolshevik conspiracy theory is a fabrication, built on a foundation of prejudice rather than historical accuracy, which has been debunked by both historical evidence and scholarly consensus.

"thousand year old gripe"
maze,
Well, for how long then has that nonsense in or about Palestine & Israel been going on ?

Lies about Jews are invented by anti-Semites like Foxy and Armchair Critic because they need a reason to back up their irrational hatred and fear of Jews. Or, should I say they trawl the internet for the beliefs of other Jew-haters because they - OLO's very own anti-Semites - don't have the imagination to invent their own lies. Their posts are usually accompanied by references to other nutjobs.

This thread has exposed its instigator to ridicule, proved that people using second hand information don't even read their own chosen references, and cemented forever the wild thoughts of Foxy and Armchair Critic in our minds.

I suppose they can be said to be doing us the service of revealing some of the lunacy out there.

According to Oxford University:

http://academic.oup.com/ijtj/article/16/3/396/6776207

"The most recent data suggests that during the two Soviet
occupations (1940-1941 and 1944-1990) the total number of
people killed in Lithuania was 50,000, with 20,000 partisans
killed in action, 25,000 killed for other reasons, and
5,000 other casualties.

The number deported was - 131,600, including 39,000 children
and the number arrested was 282,000 of whom 200,000, were
imprisoned. By 1954, Lithuania had lost one sixth of its
population.

Recent research shows that if not for the Soviet occupation
Lithuanian would have a population of five million.

As a response to physical and social Soviet repression, a
large part of the Lithuanian population stopped talking
about the occupation, even within family circles. Therefore,
memories of WWII, and the post war period, were obscured in
Lithuania until "Perestrojka" in 1986" .

The memories of all those who perished at the hands of both
Stalin and Hitler during WWII are not revered by the blame
game. It does not honour them who
suffered and died that we now continue to hurl insults.
This only compounds the tragedy of WWII.

I'll try once more replying to individuals and then drop out if people discuss away from the original topic.

ttbn,

<<Only a tiny minority of people..... would agree.... or try to make excuses for these two dreadful people.>>

Well we have no figures there and I could then argue the same re the Israeli Government. It's not a popularity contest or a poll, it's what is the best pathway to follow.

Rhian,

<<Most violent racists justify themselves...>>

As pointed out it is a question to if these two nurses would actually go through with what they actually said in real terms. It also must be noted that the recording gladly went through at the other end, with this essentially a gotcha moment. For the person at the other end to sit there in glee is hardly something to be proud of when they had the opportunity to guide these two nurses down a different pathway, but they chose not to.

Whilst I wouldn't put out comments the way these nurses have, I still hold very strong views on issues as do others and this needs to be accepted as part of public discourse and the need for people to separate off the issues. So comments you may make in one environment are fine and you can be a totally different person elsewhere. This needs to be understood.

Armchair Critic,

<<You act like they're the victims...>>

Yes, because they are. We've had them face something extraordinary for what were some comments they did not expect to have put out there in the open. I agree such comments should not have been made in a workplace environment, but the person at the other end should not have encouraged them. Plus we have not seen a lot of calls from prominent people calling for leaders and political people to resign (with their actions seeing huge deaths in Gaza) as it's too difficult politically. So, these nurses are easy targets.

Finally we have politicians in Australia putting out vile things under parliamentary privilege. Politicians are meant to represent the people. Are they stepping down?

Foxy,

That Lithuanians suffered horrendously under the Soviet regime is a given.

That Lithuanian Jews suffered genocide at the hands of other Lithuanians is hardly disputed.

One doesn't obviate the other. Because they suffered under the Soviets doesn't excuse their earlier genocide of the Jews.

I don't doubt that the Lithuanians stopped talking about the events of 1941. Shame would do that. But that doesn't mean the inherent antisemitism that allowed that genocide went away or wasn't passed to later generations.

Again Nathan, I agree this is a free speech issue and these people had a right to say what they said.

But its also a public safety issue. We cannot allow people who claim to want to harm their patients to work in the health system. Sacking and deregistering them was the minimum that was required...and also the maximum. Imagine we had an Uber driver saying, even jokingly, that he intending raping the next women with a short skirt he picked up. Would anyone demur at ensuring his Uber licence was withdrawn? Same here.

The only difference is that these were Muhammadians and the proposed victims were a group that barely has any rights to safety these days.

___________________________________________________________________

Last night 7:30 ran a report on just how bad antisemitic attacks in our cities had become. If even the ABC is prepared to call this out, it has to be horrendous. Its not 'Kristallnacht' yet... but its certainly on that path.

Jews "barely (have] any rights to safety these days".

Because Albanese threw them under a bus thinking that his anti-Semitic regime will get Muslim votes.

He is an ignorant coot in more ways than one: assuming that all Muslims are anti-Semitic so they will vote Labor because Labor is anti-Semitic; that all Muslims support Islamist activists; that all Muslims, unlike the rest of us, won't have other things on their minds (that he has caused) when they vote.

I'm against Muslim immigration because it lets a small number of very dangerous people into Australia.

But, as far as I'm concerned, Albanese is a much bigger danger to Australia and Australians than your average Muslim is. And he certainly is insulting Muslims who just came here for a better life.

mhaze,

<<But its also a public safety issue. We cannot allow people who claim to..... work in....">>

Politicians, shop workers, police, teachers, cleaners, fire fighters.... I could go on.

If we took every person's comments put out there and applied 'safety' across the board we'd be employing no one.

To be on the safe side, I suggest we audit all people in the health sector and ask them what their views are on the Gaza/Israel conflict. If they are anti-Israel they lose their jobs, the others stay on and those who refuse to comment also go as a public safety issue.

I don't see it going down very well, as people would say things like: "My views are none of your business and they don't affect how I undertake my job."

If you do have people come out and they are forced though to say how they feel to keep their job and they are anti-Israel/Israeli Government where do you draw the line? How many people would keep their true feeling bottled up to themselves and lie? Is that healthy, is that what you want to encourage?

People's feelings and real life actions are two different things pointed out by myself.

Just as an addition, policy failures in Afghanistan and calls for political leaders in the US to resign, did it actually happen? I mean they ruined lives. No, the resignations didn't occur despite the huge impact on individuals, still affected today.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/columnist/2024/08/29/harris-biden-us-withdrawal-afghanistan-taliban/74954296007/

If this issue (re the nurses) was a public safety one, I'd agree with you, but it is not. It is a political one, driven by people who want to send a message they are doing something, yet in terms of their real life they destroy lives every day and get away with it, that being politicians.

' If they are anti-Israel they lose their jobs"

No no. These people didn't JUST express antisemitic views. They boasted that they had and would in the future use their positions to cause physical harm to Jews. That's very different to just expressing a view.

"If this issue (re the nurses) was a public safety one, I'd agree with you, but it is not".

That means, if mhaze thought the same way as he does, Nathan would agree with him. Duh.

And, a threat to Jews is "not a public safety one". Cop that Jews: you are not part of the Australian public.

The sillier some people are made to look, the sillier they become.

Nathan,

This may be of interest:

http://jewishcouncil.com.au/media/reject-racism-against-palestinian-fleeing-persecution-gaza#:

" This week Sky News reported it had a list with the personal
details of 500 Palestinian people who had obtained visas to
flee overwhelming violence in Gaza 81 of whom are in Australia.

The Jewish Council of Australia is concerned for the safety of
the Palestinian people who have had their identies exposed
to Sky News and urges the Australian government to investigate
how their private infromation was obtained to prevent the
spread of this information.

The Council is alarmed that some Jewish organisations
have been lobbying for the Australian government to
refuse entry to
people seeking safety from Gaza and have mobilized anti
Palestinian racism and sentiment to do so".

Dear Mhaze,

«We cannot allow people who claim to want to harm their patients to work in the health system.»

So you prefer those who remain silent and just do their harm covertly?
That pair is just silly immature - those who really want to do harm, will never tell others about it.

Yes, they should indeed been sacked, both because they were playing with social-media while they should have been working and because they could not be relied on to perform all their medical duties as required.

On the hand, deregistering them was going too far and was too harsh: there are no grounds to prevent them (or anyone else) from nursing others, private people, who are willing to employ them despite their shortcomings, despicable as they are. Well then, I staunchly oppose to begin with this requirement by states for anyone to be registered in order to be able to work for another who is willing to take them on as they are.

Hi NathanJ

You say it “ is a question to if these two nurses would actually go through with what they actually said in real terms.” I disagree. I think the nurses were probably lying when they claimed to have murdered Israelis, and it is unlikely that they would carry out their threat to commit murder in future. The current police and departmental investigations will, I hope, establish whether this is so. But the question is not whether it is true, but whether someone who has made such statements is fit to remain a medical professional and employee of the NSW health service. I think emphatically not – how could a Jewish patient trust a nurse who has made such a statement?

Mhaze has made the important point that there are two dimensions to this – the disciplinary/professional matter of continuing employment as nurses, and the issue of whether such hate speech should be illegal (I’d add a third – the criminal matter of whether they actually harmed patients).

It is quite common for people to be sacked from employment or deregistered from an occupation if their actions or public statements (sometimes, even supposedly private ones) are not compatible with the values, policies, codes of conduct etc of their employers or profession. How far this is justified depends on the nature of the organisation, their level of seniority and responsibility and the seriousness and consequences of their actions. Mhaze’s example of the Uber driver is a good one. But it’s not just about safety. If the president of the Shooters and Fishers Party posted online a video of himself shooting a deer and using its flesh to make venison sausages, no-one would bat an eyelid. If the president of The Vegan Society of Australia did the same thing, I’d expect them to lose their job.

Nathan,

This may also be of interest:

http://jewishcouncil.com.au/media/jewish-council-launches-expert-voice-antisemitism-racism-in-australia

Yuyutsu.

«We cannot allow people who claim to want to harm their patients to work in the health system.»
So you prefer those who remain silent and just do their harm covertly?"

Oh, so they're the only choices? People who want to hurt their patients and talk about it and people who want to hurt their patients and keep it secret?

In this fantasy world of yours is there no one who wants to do right by their patients? I'm sure I've met such people. I think they might still exist!!

Rhian wrote: "(I’d add a third – the criminal matter of whether they actually harmed patients)."

If it's shown that they did indeed act on their racism and threats, then everything changes and there wouldn't be enough books to throw at them.

"If the president of The Vegan Society of Australia did the same thing [ie shoot a deer and using its flesh to make venison sausages]".

Now there's an image! But you're right. There are any number of jobs and functions in society that expect and require a certain standard and people who don't meet that standard just have to move on.

mhaze,

<<No no. These people didn't JUST express antisemitic views. They boasted that they had and would in the future use their positions to cause physical harm to Jews. That's very different to just expressing a view.>>

And?

There is no evidence so far these nurses have undertaken any physical activity towards others in the negative, in fact they have no doubt saved many lives over the years, to the benefit of others.

What we face at the moment is a health system potentially crawling with antisemitic doctors, nurses and other medical professionals who may also be anti who knows whatever else.

We have two nurses here, how many more in the medical sector are actually out there in real terms with similar views/positions. We don't know and the alarm bells should be going off, but people like yourself act as if it's all nothing and then try and pass the issue off as a safety issue.

It is also quite clear we haven't audited those in the health system enough or what we are doing at the moment isn't working or these two nurses wouldn't be employed in the first place.

We know with an audit, we'd gets lots of liars not wanting to lose their jobs, so that's an immediate problem, but if it's all about safety we should start a process to make it all work and happen, if we're truly concerned about Jewish and other patients.

Personally, I don't see anything happening in this area. Clearly the police checks aren't good enough either or these nurses wouldn't have made it through the system, but the reality is they've probably never done anything of substance to justify any police action.

As Yuyutsu also points out no one who is actively going to take out negative activity against a patient will state so publicly and these two nurses have done so (stupidly) and to their loss. Others in the system undertake negative activity towards patients at present and are facing nothing due to lack of attention and action.

While we might allow that your average Muslim is not interested in killing Jews, and might abhor the threats of these two nurses as (some of) us do, the courtesy cannot be extended to 50 supposed Muslim leaders, who have teamed up with Hizb ut-Tahrir to sign an open letter defending the pair of would-be Jew killers.

I'm not sure how these 50 characters got to be “leaders”, but I do know that Hizb-Ut-Tahrir is an internationally declared terrorist organisation, but not - surprise surprise - here in Australia.

Small wonder Jews no longer feel safe in Australia. They can't expect any protection from government.

Dear Mhaze,

«Oh, so they're the only choices? People who want to hurt their patients and talk about it and people who want to hurt their patients and keep it secret?»

Well of course there are the people, perhaps 99.99%, who neither talk about nor do hurt others - we were not even talking about them.

«If it's shown that they did indeed act on their racism and threats, then everything changes and there wouldn't be enough books to throw at them.»

That is if they even are actually racist and not just attention-seekers...

Well yes, that is up for police to investigate according to their priorities and limited man-power. There is just not enough, or it would be too costly, to investigate every stupid adolescent bragging of this or the other crime which was not even committed.

«There are any number of jobs and functions in society that expect and require a certain standard and people who don't meet that standard just have to move on.»

When these are public or even partially public-funded jobs, then sure, I just disagree that the state can interfere between private individuals who wish to employ each other.

Here is the story of Awad Darawshe, an Arab-Israeli paramedic who was working at the Nova music festival when Hamas attacked. He refused to leave, and was murdered while treating the wounded.

http://apnews.com/article/israel-arab-paramedic-killed-c16a667db45db2ee62bcd993a24d6ee5

His cousin Mohammad is a director of Givat Haviva Center for Shared Society, which works to reconcile Israel’s Jewish and Arab people. I found his comment challenging:

“This is .... what we expect from everyone in our family — to be human, to stay human and to die human.”

If more of us thought and acted like this, the world might be a better place.

Hi NathanJ,
"I'll try once more replying to individuals and then drop out if people discuss away from the original topic."
- Pretty much all roads lead to Israel these days, and these Palestinian nurses, well it's all in the same ballpark.

<<You act like they're the victims...>>

"Yes, because they are. We've had them face something extraordinary for what were some comments they did not expect to have put out there in the open."

No they are not.
If they are victims of anything, they are victims of their own big mouths and a failure to restrain themselves.
Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are the victims.
These people are Australian citizens, they're not being bombed.
I don't even know if they're even Palestinians or not, they might just be Sunni Muslims, wasn't one from Afghanistan?

In any case, I'm neither surprised or offended if they feel anger and frustration about what's been happening over there. I'm not even a Muslim and I feel anger and frustration about the senseless mass killings some of which are just plain murder and assassinations and can't be seen any other way.

I'm going to stick up for the Jewish people here.
They actually are the victims in this, and you won't find me saying stuff like this too often, but to give credit where it's due...

Imagine you are some poor elderly Jewish person sent in for some routine operation, and these pair are standing before you.
Do you really want to go through with the procedure and take your chances that these 2 nurses comments were only said in the heat of the moment?

Nobody should ever have to feel that way when they're sick and need medical assistance.

[Cont.]

Also I shared the other day that Jews themselves are banding together to hunt and expose anti-Semites, their mistake was their own ignorance.

But beyond that, I know it sucks for them and it's a huge price to pay losing one's career for things said in a heated exchange, I truly do.
(So long as they didn't ACTUALLY mean what they said)

And everyone here knows I've been sticking up for the Palestinians human rights from Day 1, despite any criticism that's come my way.
- And I'm probably the only one here with the balls to say Israel is a terrorist state lead in part by irrational psychotic religious lunatics, hell bent on conducting mass murder for land theft.

Claims of anti-Semitism has been a means to silence these voices such as mine that defended the innocent, and I haven't wavered.

"Plus we have not seen a lot of calls from prominent people calling for leaders and political people to resign (with their actions seeing huge deaths in Gaza) as it's too difficult politically. So, these nurses are easy targets."
- Because it would be as much of a career ending proposition for the politicians as what the nurses went and said, such is the power of the Israel lobby.

Hi mhaze,
"No no. These people didn't JUST express antisemitic views. They boasted that they had and would in the future use their positions to cause physical harm to Jews. That's very different to just expressing a view."
- Agreed;
"Sacking and deregistering them was the minimum that was required...and also the maximum."
- Also agreed.

Also, I'll leave the Jew / Soviet can of worms for another time.
(But it doesn't mean I'm shying away in defeat fyi)

Hi Foxy,
" This week Sky News reported it had a list with the personal
details of 500 Palestinian people who had obtained visas to
flee overwhelming violence in Gaza 81 of whom are in Australia.

The Jewish Council of Australia is concerned for the safety of
the Palestinian people who have had their identites exposed
to Sky News and urges the Australian government to investigate
how their private information was obtained to prevent the
spread of this information."

- Good, someone needs to be fired for that too, and I hope the Jewish Council of Australia's views on this were sincere.

"The Council is alarmed that some Jewish organisations
have been lobbying for the Australian government to
refuse entry to people seeking safety from Gaza and have
mobilized anti Palestinian racism and sentiment to do so".

- Do they really care, or do they just wish to export Israels problems to other countries by any means?

Hi Yuyutsu,
"That pair is just silly immature - those who really want to do harm, will never tell others about it."
Likely accurate, the real nefarious ones aren't going to be foolish enough to advertise it.

Hi mhaze,
"Oh, so they're the only choices? People who want to hurt their patients and talk about it and people who want to hurt their patients and keep it secret?"

Sounds like the arguments I heard for Israelis on a video a few days back.

You have the Honest Zionists, they're not afraid to say they want all the Palestinians dead or gone, and the liberal Zionists, who don't wish to think of themselves as horrible people without a conscience, but they still argue the Palestinians should still all be sent packing somewhere else.

I think the Youtube content creators arguments held merit
But I also think that 'person' was little strange themselves though...
- You'll know what I mean if you look.

The Two Faces of Zionism
http://youtu.be/43JFdXCf9v4

How's that for free speech ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx8X-nnrauo

I'm not sure it was free for the U.S. taxpayer Indy.
Looks they they were the ones who had to foot the bill.

USAID also spent about 3 million on Hamster Fight Clubs, apparently.
And many others things as well that would make your head spin.
Wasteful spending by government gone crazy.

- But it's the grant money the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) spends on regime changes that doesn't seem to have gotten as much publicity, that bothers me.

I believe Elon Musk has put forward that all government spending should be on a publicly accessible blockchain, and that AI can be used to read and summarise bills passed by government.
- The bills that no-one ever actually reads, that is.

Hi Nathan,

"We have two nurses here, how many more in the medical sector are actually out there in real terms with similar views/positions. We don't know and the alarm bells should be going off, but people like yourself act as if it's all nothing and then try and pass the issue off as a safety issue."

So those nurses are the tip of the ice burg? That is a revolting and unsubstantiated accusation to make. I remember seeing an interview with a trauma specialist volunteering his services at a Gaza hospital. He was very scathing of what the IDF was doing, but not for an instant did I think he would deliver anything other than his best standard of care and compassion to whoever he was treating. Whether they be Jew, Muslim or gentile is totally irrelevant, and he would certainly not make comment that he would kill any Jew in his care.

I think that you and Foxy should just drop your Jew bashing. Health practitioners have very robust standards of ethics established over many centuries and your input has nothing new to offer them. Even cult leader Albo has distanced himself from the two nurses.

Health care is about care and compassion. Hatred has no place.

The reality, a couple of dumb sh!t nurses made very stupid comments about Jews, they got caught out, and now they pay the penality. There's no conspiracy, no secret network of Jew hating nurses and doctors, just a pair of dumb sh!ts, who got caught out, now kicked out!

Clearly this disgusting example of Australia's problem with anti-Semitism and the fact that terrorists feel at home here, was going to go overseas.

UK journalist Jonathan Sacerdoti refers to it as “an affirmation of the darkest fears about imported hatreds and their place within our institutions”. One arsehole bragging that he had sent Israelis to Hell; the other arsehole vowing to kill any Israeli in her care.

Sacerdoti naturally wasn't aware of the arseholes on OLO seeking to make excuses for the two creeps who will thankfully never get near another patient again.

While accepting that not all Muslim health-carers are such animals, he describes Muslim doctors - not in Australia, not relevant to this thread - who have been that way inclined elsewhere. But he says that “The Australian case feels especially terrifying because it confronts a cultural reality often ignored”.

Australia is not supposed to be a place like the Middle East and other places, where Jews are dehumanised; where hatred is taught in schools, broadcast online, and preached from podiums.

Well, it is preached in Australia by mad mullahs; and now it is broadcast online.

Just a thought here: why hasn't Madame Censor issued one of her “informal” directions to take down this abhorrent Islamist hate speech?

Sacerdoti goes on to describe the contrasting healthcare Israel has always provided to Muslim Gazans (some of whom gathered military intelligence while in Israel) to the extent of removing a brain tumour from a leading terrorist.

Australia's shame - more correctly the Albanese government’s shame - spreads globally.

I thought that in my postings on this forum over so
many decades I had made it quite clear what my
feelings were about hatred. And yet I'm still being
accused of all sorts of negative things by a small
minority here - including antisemitism. Criticizing
the Israeli government's policies does not equate
to antisemitism. It does not mean I am anti-Jewish.
There are a vast number of Jews who are also critical.

I am going to share something with you. In my high school
formative years - when I was being bullied due to
being a "foreigner"- I had the head
of the English Department who became - my protector and mentor.
She instilled my love of English Literature and Shakespeare.
And so much more.

She was an amazing woman. Fearless, curious, kind, joyful,
funny, thoughtful, and a wonderful teacher.

She was respected and cherished by both her students and
her colleagues. She made a huge impact on my life.

Not all angels have wings. Some have classrooms.

BTW: Did I mention - she was Jewish?

Let us clarify a few things:

Criticizing Israel's government policies does not
amount to antisemitism. Being pro-Palestinian -
does not amount to being anti-Jewish. Being pro-Palestinian
does not mean you support Hamas.

Being against the Soviet Regime does not mean you hate
Russians. Being anti Nazis does not mean you hate Germans.
Being of Lithuanian ancestry does not mean you supported
or support the Nazis or the communists.

Being for the Uluru Statement does not mean you're anti-
British. Criticizing religious practices does not mean
you're against religion. Criticizing certain immigration
policies does not mean you're anti-immigration. Being
critical of hate speech - does not mean you're against
freedom of speech.

Being critical of Peter Dutton - does not mean you are
anti the Liberal Party. And the list goes on.

I'll repeat what I wrote earlier. I have lived and worked
both overseas and here in this country and mixed with
various cultures and religions. And, I did not experience
or encounter any accusations of antisemitism or hatred
until I came across a small minority on this forum.

No wonder so many rational people have left.

The reason I stay is because I was taught to stand
up to bullies and to correct falsehoods, lies,
propaganda, and misinformation.

Fester,

I've never fully understood why some question those coming late into a debate, now I know why.

<<So those nurses are the tip of the ice burg?>>

Where exactly did I say that?

You have read through maybe one comment of mine and not taken it in full in terms of the overall topic, context and myself replying to others.

Please avoid coming late into a discussion into the future if possible, or at least read all of the comments in full first, from all involved if coming into a debate later in the discussion process and this includes the original topic put out in terms of the introduction.

<<I think that you and Foxy should just drop your Jew bashing.>>

Well for me that is a revolting and unsubstantiated accusation to make.

Rhian,

<<It is quite common for people to be sacked from employment or deregistered from an occupation if their actions or public statements (sometimes, even supposedly private ones) are not compatible with...>>

Well that doesn't make it acceptable, because it is common.

<<Whether someone who has made such statements is fit to remain a...>>

Well those that don't say anything still hold such views and undertake actions that go against the wishes of their employers, we just don't know about them.

As person who is at a basic level two faceted, having strong views on issues and my own life and is a different person in spaces where outside individuals are involved, it is good mentally and physically as I can express a view and still do things I like at the same time with others.

It is not healthy to expect people to bottle up views, keep things to themselves or live alone.

We need people to be vocal, speak out and up. I know someone who did speak out and lost their job. You only need to say something some else doesn't like and you are on the chopping block.

Those though in bigger decision making roles continue to get away with so much, some of them with set three to four year terms in parliament - and they can churn out whatever they want under parliamentary privilege.

As pointed out, if we are truly concerned about patient safety and views, we would audit professions, find out what their views are not employ people as a result, but a challenge would be dealing with people who would lie and not be upfront.

<<How could a Jewish patient trust a nurse who has made such a statement?>>

We need to see people understand that people can be two faceted at a basic level, express views in one area, but undertake other work roles professionally and above board in another sphere.

Nathan,

Some pro-Israel lobby groups in Australia as well as
some posters on this forum mischaracterize criticism
of Israel as antisemitic. This can lead to fear and
demonization of Palestinians and their supporters and
produce adverse reactions.

The belief that the Jewish people are the only people who
have a right to self-determination - is antisemitic.

There's more at:

http://jewishcouncil.com.au/media/we-dont-accept-criticism-of-israel-is-antisemitic#:

NathanJ

People can think whatever they like, and express those views in private (though nowadays, at a much greater risk that they may be exposed). But employing organisations have a right to require employees not to express in public views that would be harmful to those organisations’ operations or reputations, or contrary to their values. In the UK, a school chaplain was dismissed for preaching that homosexuality is a sin. That seems to me entirely reasonable – he can say what he likes from the pulpit, but gay school students should not be offered counselling services by a known homophobe. If you don’t like the rules, find another job.

Paul1405

There are some fairly wacky conspiracy theorists on these forums, but I don’t recall anyone suggesting the nurses were part of a conspiracy. There is evidence, though, of a troubling level of antisemitism in the health profession:

http://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11779495/

Rhian,

<<People can think whatever they like...>>

<<But employing organisations have a right to require...>>

Well then people cannot really think whatever they like or express their own views. The two don't work together and one cancels out the other, not that they need to. It's a cultural change we need to take on, but in a very institutionalised society it's very challenging.

As pointed out by myself expecting people to bottle up viewpoints, feelings and emotions is not a healthy thing for the individual with the employer having an obligation to provide a healthy workplace for all to exist in. This includes the need to express views and release feelings.

Now there are good and bad ways to do such things, but I would argue at many workplaces it is glossed over or not taken seriously. There is also a challenge of dealing with emotions, opinions and feelings and how to express these in a way that does not overtake your daily work routine, but for me it must be part of such a routine.

As this link highlights, maintaining a positive outlook and bottling up feelings is not good. It provides options for people stuck in this situation and is a good source of detail for those looking for answers. From the link:

"Suppressing your emotions, whether it’s anger, sadness, grief or frustration, can lead to physical stress on your body. The effect is the same, even if the core emotion differs, says provisional clinical psychologist Victoria Tarratt. She says the resulting emotional stress can impact your blood pressure, memory and self-esteem."

http://www.hcf.com.au/health-agenda/body-mind/mental-health/downsides-to-always-being-positive

So, the health impacts are serious and we must take them on, including in the health sector.

Until we change the current culture where we expect people to stay silent and bottle up views and feelings it will be to the detriment of people internationally and will see no improvements in our daily lives.

Hi Rhian,
"There are some fairly wacky conspiracy theorists on these forums, but I don’t recall anyone suggesting the nurses were part of a conspiracy. There is evidence, though, of a troubling level of antisemitism in the health profession"

Whose really at fault here.

We're all taught to treat others the way we'd like to be treated.
So if I see the Israelis doing things that the vast majority of people would find morally detestable, then suddenly I'm the one who is at fault for criticising?

How does it work exactly, please explain.

So why is it then when I see Israel blow up a dozen 14 story apartment building full of people in the space of 30 seconds or targeting medical responders and then I say something about it, see kids with gunshot wounds to the head and their brains splattered all across a wall that suddenly I'm the anti-Semite, I'm the bad guy, I'm the guilty one, yet Israel is simply just 'defending itself'.

I didn't drop any bombs on anyone.

What if the Chinese military were dropping bombs on apartment buildings full of Ugyhur men, women and children, because some of these people rose up against their Chinese leadership. I'm sure it would be perfectly fine for Western citizens to unleash their disgust and outrage at the Chinese Communist Party, no holds barred.

Not one person would argue that I'm a racist and anti-Chinese for criticising China if that were the case. Not one.

This whole anti-Semite crap seeks to make the criticiser the bad guy instead of the actual people responsible committing said morally offensive and reprehensible actions.

If these two nurses were in Gaza, Israel would've assassinated them to prevent the Palestinians receiving any care at all, just like they deliberately starved and denied water and medicine, and forced kids to undergo amputations without anesthetic, as well as tortured doctors to death and assassinated any journalist that tried to show the world what Israel was doing.

[Cont.]
I stand by my original position that the 2 nurses have inadvertently put an end to their own careers, but I have to defend their reasons for being so easily angered by a member of the IDF.

I could say more, when I think about all I've seen from Gaza, (some of which is mentioned above) but I don't want to make the same kind of mistake those two nurses did, getting worked up and speaking in anger.
For a caregiver I expect those scenes would affect them more than they would the average person.

I've seen Israelis shoot pregnant Palestinian women in the street and then shoot the people who come to assist, and not just a single video but numerous instances of the same thing.

- THINGS WHICH ARE SO VILE AND REPREHENSIBLE ITS BEYOND WORDS.
And on top of that wearing T-Shirts which display their pride, happiness and humour in committing those same acts.

http://x.com/FalestiniBoss/status/1890191440145445253

I'll finish by once again stating what I did a little while back.
Was that which these nurses said a cause or a consequence of the conflict?

Go to x.com and search 'pregnant palestinian shot'
We may have every right to be angry at these two nurses in Sydney.
- But we should NEVER FORGET what the Israelis have been doing.

NathanJ

Are there any circumstances whatsoever in which you think it is reasonable to sack an employee because of what they said? If so, what criteria would you apply?

AC

Of course it is possible to criticise Israel’s conduct of the war, or its policies before 2023, without being antisemitic. But it is also the case that some antisemites cloak their antisemitism as legitimate criticism of Israel.

And not all antisemitism is as blatant and disgusting as the behaviour of these nurses. Some can be quite subtle.

Gaslighting occurs when people play down the extent or severity of antisemitism, or portray it as somehow understandable given Israel’s actions, or play whataboutism – Islamophobia is widespread and serious (which it is); therefore Jews have nothing to complain about.

“Tokenising” occurs when a small number of unrepresentative voices (usually ones the speaker agrees with) are taken as representative of Jewish people as a whole, or that their Jewishness confers particular authority on their opinions, while ignoring the breadth of views across the Jewish community and the balance of opinion within it. This is a particular problem on the progressive left, which happily embraces “good” Jews critical of Israel, while demonising or ignoring the rest.

Anti-Zionism can be legitimate, but it shades into antisemitism when the term Zionist is used to generalise about Jewish or Israeli people as a whole, or when Zionism is mindlessly equated to apartheid or even Nazism.

There is an interesting summary of different forms of antisemitism here, by the American Jewish Committee. Sadly, some of it looks all too familiar from OLO forums:

http://www.ajc.org/sites/default/files/pdf/2024-02/AJC_Translate-Hate-Glossary-2.2024.pdf

How on earth do you expect people to contain their anger and frustration when the scenes they're subjected to are BEYOND WORDS?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx8X-nnrauo

Armchair Critic,
Didn't you watch that link above ? To stop brainwashing innocent little children with your insane senseless hatred would be a good start to reduce that induced anger !

sack an employee because of what they said? If so, what criteria would you apply?
Rhian,
Inciting hate speech & violence !

Hi Indy,
I watched the video, twice now.
It's just 2 Pro-Israel people having a discussion, and would be the complete opposite if it was 2 Pro Palestinian people having a discussion.

In reference to USAID, I tried to draw attention to them years ago on this forum, when no-one had even heard of them or what they do.
Did I not tell you all 90% of the news is propaganda?

THIS Is How USAID Overthrows Governments Around The Globe!
http://youtu.be/HY64th4uMZw

I also opined years ago that I think all foreign aid is somewhat treasonous, when Australian citizens are dying on hospital waiting lists.

'your insane senseless hatred'
- I agree I'm more critical of Israel and Jews than anyone else on this forum.

Let's assume your above statement was true, which it isn't.
I defended the innocent Israelis on Oct 7 (anyone can go look at my comment history) and I defended the rights of Israeli patients here on this very topic.

I've stated many times I am not religious but more ethical, and believe everybody has a right to live as they choose so long as they don't harm others.

And so, I kind of think that if others want to accuse me of 'insane senseless hatred', then I kind wish to explore that.
If you believe I hate them, then explain why I do.
- I'm certainly no supporter of Islam.
Assuming I hate, do you think it's without cause?

All our lives we've taught wrong from right.
We've seen Israel cross every red line there is when it comes to these values, but somehow crossing all these red lines is no motive for anger and resentment and you assume hatred without cause.

Collective punishment, torture, starvation, withholding water and medicine, blowing up hospitals and places of worship, targeting citizens trying to collect foreign aid, assassinating journalists, deliberately killing women, pregnant women and children, imprisonment without charge, assassinating medical responders, destroying food sources (olive groves) bulldozing homes, using Palestinians for organ harvesting and trafficking, and defending the rape of prisoners... the list just goes on and on.

[Cont.]
You know what the answer to anti-semitism actually is?
- It's not preventing others from criticising things that ought to be criticised.
The answer to anti-semistism is that Jews themselves should stop doing things that the rest of us would have genuine reason to find reprehensible.

You know I have to be honest and say that right now, I kind of feel like the lunatics have taken over the asylum here.

'Israel is the victim'
No. from what I've seen, their antics make Hitler look like a mere amateur.
An angry schoolboy.

The Palestinian rapper.
I oppose the foreign funding, but WHY did they fund it?
And how many of his family were killed by Israelis?

How many of this girls family members have been killed?
- probably none.
http://x.com/abierkhatib/status/1848820311170470346
'Honest Zionists and Liberal Zionists'.

Do you think the Palestinians are the only ones who hate?
Maybe they want justice for ther dead parents and a future for their kids.
I see Israel as a nation of genocidal sociopaths.

Netanyahu, he's been making war on everyone for 30 years.
I told you long ago all my pet peeve is US sanctions and regime changes.

A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Break:_A_New_Strategy_for_Securing_the_Realm

General Wesley Clark: The US will attack 7 countries in 5 years
http://youtu.be/nUCwCgthp_E

What do you think all these wars in the M/E are about?
Then tell me why Muslims hate the West.

I WAS angered earlier, do you know why?
Early in the conflict I saw this one particular photo.
An 8 year old girl, with a sniper rifle shot to the head.
Brains splattered all over the wall including the big spurt of blood that fountained out of what was left of her skull, the poor innocent child slumped against the wall where she died.
For a moment, I remembered some of the heinous things I've seen. Unlike most of you who remained insulated here, I had more of a front row seat, yet what I've seen is merely the tip of the iceberg.

Senseless loss of life Indy.

Hi AC,

"How on earth do you expect people to contain their anger and frustration when the scenes they're subjected to are BEYOND WORDS?"

Why are there Palestinian refugees and no Jewish refugees? Golda Meir seemed to know why.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7ox2MeoI78

Hatred goes by a lot of names and is fundamentally identical in every instance. It never makes things better. It always makes things worse. Gaza is what happens when people devote themselves to hatred.

It looks like those nurses might face charges.

I don't know why everyone gets so excited about who says what.
It is well shown that moslems cause civil tensions and trouble wherever
they migrate. Actually they have a word for Jihad by Immigration.
There is a movement starting to reinforce western culture. It needs it.
The time will come when we will have to adopt the practices that are
starting now in Europe.
Austria, Germany, Greece and Holland are trying to implement the
expelling of moslems. Italy has already put it into action.
Britain is possibly a lost cause already now that the two tear policing
is established.

"It is well shown that moslems cause civil tensions and trouble wherever they migrate".

Our idiot politicians didn't seem to know that, Baz. Or, perhaps they did, and it was exactly what they wanted. And, we are still voting for them.

I forgot 'using Palestinians as human shields'
They call them 'mosquitos'.

Gaza: Israeli forces used 80-year-old Palestinian as human shield before killing him
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/gaza-israeli-forces-used-80-year-old-palestinian-human-shield-killing-him
'Israeli forces strapped explosives around the neck of an elderly Palestinian who used a walking stick and forced him to inspect areas used by Hamas before killing him and his wife'.

Anyone want to tell me why the 'criticiser' is considered to be worse than the perpetrator?
Like somehow I'm considered to be 'Hitler-lite' just for pointing out this entire shiteshow is WRONG by any definition?

We can't defend what the Sydney nurses did, because it was WRONG too.
Anyone here wish to try and defend the actions of the IDF above?

The only way I can possibly be wrong is if someone here can defend the above acts on merit.
Tell me the IDF had no choice except to put explosives around the neck of an 80 year old man, and then when he failed to blow himself up looking for booby trapped explosives that it was essential to murder him and his wife anyway.

Then go to the list of crimes I detailed above and tell me all that stuff was necessary as well?

In order to say I'm wrong, a person would have to defend the indefensible.

Dear Critic,

It is also very wrong to fry up all our cheesy moon, eat it up alone and leave planet earth with no companion, dark nights and no tides.

Don't blame the criticiser - blame the perpetrator!

There is no problem with these people or anyone else criticising Israeli policy. That's their right. The problem is that they threatened to turn their dislike of Israel into attacks against Jews in this country. (Tell me again how criticising Israel isn't antisemitic!).

AC wants to say its OK to threaten Jew in Australia because you don't like the policies of Jews elsewhere. I wonder if it'd be OK to threaten Aussies in some other part of the world because you don't like how we treat aboriginals.

But I feel that for AC, threatening Jews anywhere for any reason at any time is entirely kosher. :)

Muslim women are attacked in the street their scarfs
ripped off. They end up in hospital. Fundamentalists
exist on both sides. Luckily most people are not
fundamentalists. Taking sides in this conflict is
inevitable. However what should be avoided is violence.

We need to condemn any kind of violence and try not to
encourage division, and fear and see to it that never
again should any abused people become the abusers.
Which ever side they may be on.

Making excuses for any kind of violence is not good enough.
Violence should not be tolerated either from Muslims of Jews.

Hi AC,

The IDF strapped explosives around an extra year old's neck? That sounds a little fanciful. Do you think it's true?

Hi Foxy,

Exactly, it is all about hatred and why it's never acceptable. Bazz might switch Judaism for Islam in his comments and have a think.

Yesterday Hamas returned the bodies of two children their brave martyrs had kidnapped a coupla years ago. Brave? Well it takes real courage to grab a 4 month old and whisk him back to your base!

As the tiny coffins were paraded through the streets, the baying mobs cheered while a cartoon version of a Jew made to look like a vampire looked on.

Also returned was the body of the baby's mother, likewise bravely adducted by the martyrs of Islam. Cheers likewise ensued at the death of another hated Jew.

One more coffin was also cheered over - that of an 83 yr old man, clearly a threat to the glory of Allah. In his retirement, this man had devoted himself to driving sick Gazans across the border so they could be treated in Israeli hospitals. Some of those he ferried used the opportunity to gather information that facilitated the 7/10 attacks.

The whole thing was so disgusting that even the Jew-hating UN was moved to tut-tut. When that happens, you just know it was truly abhorrent.

"What we saw today in Gaza is a disgrace to Islam, an act of blasphemy against Allah, and a sin that does not represent the followers of the Prophet, peace be upon him, or the honourable religion of Islam. The path of Islam includes respect even for non-Muslim dead. Today, the Hamas movement has stepped outside the definition of Islam."
Saudi Arabia's Grand Mufti

Quick all you members of the Hamas cheer-squad, look the other way.

Hi Fester,

"The IDF strapped explosives around an extra year old's neck? That sounds a little fanciful. Do you think it's true?"

- Well I wasn't there so I can't say for sure, but I have seen a couple of images where they used Palestinians as human shields.
Strapped on the bonnets of Humvees as the IDF entered neighbourhoods in Gaza.
Given all the other things I've seen, I wouldn't doubt it
too much.

http://youtube.com/shorts/JNa2m1CsHIU

I honestly think there should be a Palestinian Genocide Museum, where all of the photos and videos of all the atrocities including all the things IDF have documented themselves are shown.

Instead of me being criticised for pointing out the wrongdoing, it would be better to let these things speak for themselves.

A lot of things I've seen are really horrible and gruesome, but often the worst things were removed from X.com after a day or so.

Remember early in the conflict when mhaze was arguing Israel didn't target the Al-Shifa hospital, well in the end, Israel targeted all the hospitals and left barely anything standing.

So many times I saw Israel not just target journalists (some 200 assassinated) but do so by targetting them and home and killing their entire families.
There was no respect for human life whatsoever, moreso a wilful determination to extinguish it, made more easily by dehumanising them.
Which Israeli leaders themselves have done for decades.
I didn't respond to your comment re Golda Meir the other day because I couldn't find a video I was looking for where she was saying her aim was to make life miserable and unliveable in a manner that no Palestinian would wish to stay. I found some other ones though.

http://x.com/QudsNen/status/1698631096576159985
http://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1697526412494749994
http://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1697715753816932438
http://x.com/simpatico771/status/1720218750669013037

If anyone says that I'm just using this war as cover for my existing antisemitism, (Rhian) that's because I've saw the atrocities happening long before Oct 7, but that said he's right in that the Israeli / Palestinian conflict is not my only reason for criticism.

You'd think that by what the world has witnessed
in both the past and the present - people would
no longer take sides in conflicts but do what they
can to prevent the violence for the sake of justice
and humanity.

Many try to do just that. But it's clear that not enough
do.

AC wrote: "Remember early in the conflict when mhaze was arguing Israel didn't target the Al-Shifa hospital"

That's straight up false. I really don't know if you've just got a bad memory, have a problem with comprehension or just enjoy making things up to suit your fantasy world.

For the record, what I said was that the bomb that dropped on the Al-Shifa hospital allegedly killing (think of a number and double it) people, was NOT an Israeli bomb. It turned out that I was right - it was a misfired Hamas rocket. Since you were PROVEN wrong, you've now decided to reimagine what was said.

Further, I never said Israel doesn't target hospitals. Quite the opposite, I've said that they do and should target them because Hamas/ UNWRA use the hospitals as shields for their warriors. This, of course, is a war crime which the Hamas cheer-squad chose to ignore

Hi AC,

Yes, it's an unsubstantiated story, but the Gazans are at war with Israel, so atrocities are a given.

The Gaza strip was seized by Israel in the six day war of 1967, a war prosecuted by Egypt with the objective of annihilating Israel, the same objective of all wars prosecuted against the state of Israel since it was proclaimed by the United Nations in 1948. In 2005 the Gaza strip was disengaged by Israel in an effort to improve the security of the nation, shortly after which Hamas was elected to power and began firing rockets into surrounding Israeli territory.

Hatred has always been the driver of the conflict. I don't see the point of using hateful acts as a motivation for more hatred.

Hi mhaze,
"It turned out that I was right - it was a misfired Hamas rocket. Since you were PROVEN wrong, you've now decided to reimagine what was said."
- Well we don't really know for certain what happened mhaze, 'he says, she says...'
But we know they targeted that hospital and others on other occasions.

Do you want me to dig up the pictures of the Palestinians being burned alive when they were just giving blood trying to save others?
I could, but it matters not and do you know why?

Because Israel killed hundreds of thousands of innocent women and kids over the course anyway, doesn't really matter whether they died at that hospital in that particular instance, because it's just a drop in the ocean.

And maybe if they weren't killing journalists, we wouldn't have to speculate.

I know you pro-Israel people don't like to hear it, and make all the excuses to play it down or explain it away, but the Israelis have done some horrible unconscionable things.

Dying in ‘Hell’: The fate of Palestinian medics jailed by Israel
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/24/dying-in-hell-palestinian-medics-jailed-by-israel
'One of Gaza’s most prominent doctors may have been raped to death, recent revelations show. He’s not the only one.'

We're angry that the Sydney Pro-Palestinian nurses have brought our health system into disrepute, as we should be.
- But the Israelis brought the whole 'caring for the sick and injured' profession into disrepute as well.

Infants found dead and decomposing in evacuated hospital ICU in Gaza. Here’s what we know
http://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/08/middleeast/babies-al-nasr-gaza-hospital-what-we-know-intl/index.html

I don't blame the Sydney nurses being angry at Israel or the IDF.
But as you said yourself mhaze, they threatened to use their positions as carers to do harm.
They went off the 'caring for the sick and injured reservation' and were an affront to the values they're supposed to uphold.
Whether they had a reason to be angry should be considered, but at the same time it matters not.
They crossed a line which should not be crossed and they brought our health system into disrepute.

Hi Foxy,
"You'd think that by what the world has witnessed
in both the past and the present - people would
no longer take sides in conflicts but do what they
can to prevent the violence for the sake of justice
and humanity."

Many try to do just that. But it's clear that not enough
do."

Sometimes you talk out of both sides of your mouth, I know you have your entrenched Anto-Russia bias.
I don't understand how you can say two completely conflicting things just 15 minutes apart.

"We can no longer assume that the most powerful nation will
continue to stand for peace and justice. The current US
President is of great concern - if he stand by a dictator
instead of a freedom fighter fighting for his people's
freedom and basic human rights."

It appears you oppose Trumps efforts to put an end to the loss of life and want it to continue, for the sake of some misplaced principles?
At the end of the day, the U.S. has a weak hand, Russia has won on the battlefield.
Even Trump has to face that reality, unless you preferred Biden to take us to a nuclear showdown where everyone loses?

I don't support everything Trump says and does, by no means.
But he should be applauded for dialogue and diplomacy where Biden was absent and for a willingness to re-enter into nuclear treaties.

"Well we don't really know for certain what happened mhaze"

That's not true. We saw footage of the Hamas rocket launching, failing and falling into the hospital grounds. The UN agreed. Al Jazeera agreed. Hell, even rampantly pro-Hamas New York Times agreed. Only people like yourself who refuse to see the nose on their face hold out.

Oh, says AC, what I said about mhaze was wrong. Quick, let's change the subject by ranting about all these supposed Israeli atrocities.

But let's all ignore the babies returned coffins even though it was "a disgrace to Islam, an act of blasphemy against Allah,"

mhaze,

<<The problem is that they threatened to turn their dislike of Israel into attacks against Jews in this country.>>

As has been highlighted by many in this discussion, it is important to consider how many people who openly points like these nurses have are likely to act on them. In most cases, they are unlikely to follow through. Moreover, they would likely not be able to carry out such acts easily, as they would now be under constant supervision by security, police, and other authorities.

As pointed out by myself as some see this now as a public safety issue, we need to audit all people in various sectors, the health sector being one of them. We need to find out what the exact views of individuals are and if they don't fit in or resonate with certain values and principles, we turf them out. The challenge will be dealing with those who lie and keep their true feelings to themselves, but if it's truly a public safety issue and not a political one, then we need to take action and address as soon as possible.

Just out of interest would you support such an audit of people's views so we can throw out the potential troublemakers in the future? I mean we don't want individuals who 'threaten to turn their dislike of Israel into attacks against Jews in this country' in the health system do we?

As ttbn points out: 'your average Muslim is not interested in killing Jews' which I would say applies to most, if not all out there (in terms of your average person), with the majority having no desire or the skills to kill any human being out there, so the prospect of that happening in real tems is nil to nothing.

Once again you are obsessed with these two nurses and not those who are undertaking negative acts towards patients in hospitals and the health sector broadly and those who potentially will in the future. The question is why?

"Once again you are obsessed with these two nurses and not those who are undertaking negative acts towards patients in hospitals and the health sector broadly and those who potentially will in the future. The question is why?"

Nathan,

YOU started the thread about the nurses. I'm not obsessed with them but they are the subject of the thread....your thread!!

If you started a thread about tiddlywinks, my talking about tiddlywinks wouldn't show I was obsessed by them. Only that I was being polite by responding to your thread subject.


They made threats. Whether the threats were credible is not really the point. If you go back a few days I proposed a scenario of a Uber driver threatening to rape the next short skirted women he picks up. Would you oppose him losing his Uber licence?

These nurses were fools for making these threats on a public digital forum. Apart from all the other reasons they ought to be separated from any chance to carry out the threats, they should be sacked for sheer stupidity.

A friend was telling me yesterday he went to either the doctors or the hospital because he had a really bad toothache, and he wanted some panadeine forte to reduce the pain.
Apparently the nurse more or less ran him out of the place, called him a drug user and all sorts of things, and all he wanted was a little pain relief.

The same thing happened to me a few months back, I did get a little bit of pushback when I asked for panadeine forte, but I got my way - though they weren't panadeine forte, some other thing.
I told the GP I just need a few days until I can get into a dental appointment and I promised I wouldn't be back.

I think I got about 10 tablets of whatever-it-was out of it, but I didn't need to take them all before my dental appointment, and I was ok after that.

You can probably get a script of high quality cannabis easier than you can get a script of panedeine forte these days.
All you have to say is that you're having trouble sleeping and they'll give you a medicinal cannabis license.
(FYI, I don't have one)

"As pointed out by myself as some see this now as a public safety issue, we need to audit all people in various sectors, the health sector being one of them. We need to find out what the exact views of individuals are and if they don't fit in or resonate with certain values and principles, we turf them out. The challenge will be dealing with those who lie and keep their true feelings to themselves, but if it's truly a public safety issue and not a political one, then we need to take action and address as soon as possible."

That is the really chilling part of this discussion. Authoritarian regimes are obsessed with weeding out the bad people and consequently set up organisations like the Stasi in East Germany and the morals police in Iran which end up torturing and tormenting good citizens.

That the two nurses were dismissed hours after their hateful public comments shows that the health regulators are doing their job. The police and courts will determine whether crimes have been committed and dispense justice according to the laws if appropriate. Why is there a need for further scrutiny like Albo's thought police?

My concern is that people don't get the opportunity to harm good citizens by gaining authority to "weed out the bad people". I bear no malice toward such people other than curtailing their hateful ambitions toward others.

"But let's all ignore the babies returned coffins even though it was "a disgrace to Islam, an act of blasphemy against Allah,"

When the coffins of the babies were opened to do DNA testing they found them filled with Hamas propaganda. Swine.

Israeli authorities are also of the opinion that the corpse in the mother's coffin isn't the mother. The guess is that what happened to her was too grotesque to allow the body to be released so they substituted another not realising that DNA testing would reveal the truth. Well they still do live in the 7th century!.

Meanwhile from the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia: "What we saw today in Gaza is a disgrace to Islam, an act of blasphemy against Allah."

From the The Grand Mufti of Dubai, Ahmed al-Haddad: ‘Hamas has brought shame to Islam on a level never seen before.’

Is the Arab world now signalling to Israel that its time to take the gloves off as regards Hamas?

The UAE are not For the Palestinians, they're against them.
5000 IDF soldiers have visited there since the war began, do your homework.

http://www.alestiklal.net/en/article/fighting-in-gaza-enjoying-holiday-in-dubai-why-do-israeli-soldiers-choose-the-uae-for-leisure

"Recreational Program

Emirates Leaks, the opposition website, revealed on September 5, that the UAE government, led by President Mohammed bin Zayed, offers a special recreational program for Israeli soldiers.

This arrangement was reportedly made through an agreement between the UAE government and the Israeli Occupation government under Benjamin Netanyahu, who is accused of war crimes in Gaza."

http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/the-gulf/1673330007-more-than-150-000-israelis-visited-united-arab-emirates-in-2022

"In the last 10 months of 2022, more than 150,000 Israelis traveled to the United Arab Emirates, media reported on Monday.

The two countries, which normalized relations in 2020 under the U.S.-brokered Abraham Accords, have been bridging ties through tourism."

I must be a little behind in the news, I haven't seen or read anything about these current events regarding the handover of dead Israeli hostages.
[I'm currently preparing to move and spending a lot of time converting a shipping container into a combination shed / small dwelling, which needs to be completed and sold before I move.]

2022.05.18 Why “A Clean Break” Matters
http://youtu.be/Z1LYNy8bhf8
R.I.P. Gonzalo Lira.

Dear Critic,

Before the Iraq war, Kuwaiti women used to walk in public 6 meters behind their husbands.

After the war, where Kuwait was taken over by Iraq then freed by the Americans, tourists noticed that the women were now walking 6 meters ahead of their husbands.

"That's impressive, how you progressed so quickly on women's rights!", they said, to which the tourist-guide responded:
"Ah this - that's because of the Iraqi land mines".

I suspect that you too wouldn't treat your own wife any better had your life and limb been at stake, how less so an unrelated stranger.

So that part of sending an 80-year old Arab ahead is believable, not so the other nonsensical embellishments to this story.

---

Dear Mhaze,

«the baying mobs cheered while a cartoon version of a Jew made to look like a vampire looked on.»

That was not just any Jew - it was clearly an image of Netanyahu.

Hi Yuyutsu,
You just want to 'believe' that Israel's defenders are all good little boys, they're not and 200,000 dead women and children are the evidence, along with the hateful rhetoric you get from Ben G'vir and Smotrich.

They like to ransack dead Palestinians homes and take selfies wearing womens undergarments, when they are not 'mowing the lawn', and shooting kids in the head.

«the baying mobs cheered while a cartoon version of a Jew made to look like a vampire looked on.»
- I would've cheered too.

Dear Critic,

You believe what you like to believe, all fabricated social-media rubbish.

I get my information from mainstream Israeli media, not from the Nazis you mentioned (who too have their own media, but I don't look at it).

«- I would've cheered too.»

I would cheer when Dracula is dead, not before, and certainly not in the presence of coffins of innocents and the grief of their families. The hostages have done nothing to deserve that beastly treatment - Netanyahu and his Nazis are their arch-enemies too, he is the brain behind all the suffering and Hamas act as his minions (nor do they care about the Gazans either).

When I commented about 'the vampire' I hadn't seen footage of the incident.
Now I have, but I didn't see anyone cheering.

Starting to think you're affected by the same rhetoric Israels leaders have spouted for decades, Palestinians are animals, Amelekites, worthy only of extermination.

What are Israeli hostages lives worth more than innocent Palestinian lives?
Half of Israel openly wants them all dead, the other half only want them all gone.

Palestinian families?
Don't worry about their families feelings because Israel routinely assassinates the entire family.
On the other side, Israelis celebrate the carnage in Gaza.
Stop being precious.

I've shared the policy positions of the Pro-Zionist Neoconservatives from the US who helped engineer Netanyahu's 'Clean Break' policy 30 years ago.

All the M/E wars have been for Israel, instigated by Netanyahu.
How many people has Israel engineered the death of in those countries, and what is the result?

Result = Israel exporting it's Palestinian problem;
(Which truthfully is the opposite, because Israel went there to where the Palestinians lived, so really it's Palestinians Israeli problem)
Israel's caused all the Muslims coming to western countries, and made their problem ours.
When a Muslim rapes or kills a westerner in our countries its actually engineered by Jews or Pro-Jewish Westerners.
I believe 'everybody has a right to live how they choose so long as they don't harm others'
In this context Israel is indirectly responsible for ruining the entire West because of it's wars.

You want to write off anything bad about the IDF as fabricated-social-media-rubbish?

Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.
http://www.reuters.com/article/world/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-idUSBRE95J0FR/

Don't tell me Israel doesn't have form.

Want footage of Israelis using Palestinians as human shields? Fine.

Often, Jews have documented it themselves.
http://x.com/gazanotice/status/1885415554762088512
http://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1805951556556107942
http://x.com/angeloinchina/status/1746884374208139554
http://x.com/NaksBilal/status/1807491023574274077
http://x.com/xIsraelExposedx/status/1891093078796111908
http://x.com/warfareanalysis/status/1824689870352306640
http://x.com/JundAllah_T/status/1824693245214875796
http://x.com/SuppressedNws/status/1807499783684468891
http://x.com/DrLoupis/status/1723000851352989759

I'm accused of being anti-semitic, (I go along with it, I don't control what others think.)
Really I'm just not Pro-Semitic enough to turn a blind eye to all the lies.

Based upon what I've seen, my opinion is that Israel is largely a nation of Adolf Hitlers.

" I would've cheered too."

Yep...says it all. Cheering the death of two babies.

As it turns out, not just deaths. The Israeli examiners are now reporting that the two kids were strangled to death. More cause for cheering?

"Now I have, but I didn't see anyone cheering."

Well, yes AC. You've become extremely adept at NOT seeing what you don't want to see. And then hilariously thinking you're informed.

Yes mhaze. Murdered babies, with a cheer squad and festival to celebrate the brutality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIm7eBRP0H0

Makes you want to reinstate those nurses doesn't it? Maybe if Nathan had his wish for the thought police, the chief inquisitor, with Gestapo like powers, might do just that.

Don't try to twist my words around you imbecile.
I was responding to what Yuyutsu said about a cartoon image of Netanyau as a vampire, without context of what it was about.

You're the one who supports and defends the Israeli death cult.

You expect the event to be some kind of solemn moment where Israels victims hold a minutes silence for the Israeli dead.

Why should anyone pay any attention to Israels claims of victimood / self entitlement?

They only propagate lies, like mass rapes and babies in ovens that helped get this genocide started when they're guilty of the exact same thing they blame on their enemies.

Israel Drops GENOCIDAL Leaflets On Gaza: They're Not Even Hiding It
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhKLxWEGA70

You turn a blind eye to every red line the West 'claims' to hold as a pillar of our Western moral righteousness.
But then jump up and down like a screaming 4 year old when you perceive Israel's enemies as not meeting those same non-existant morals after being subject to mass slaughter.

You're pathetic, and it's not my fault you probably still have your knickers in a twist after I made you look and feel stupid yesterday, and you want to somehow win one back because you see everything as a competition.

And FYI, I'm not convinced Trump will stand by Israel.
He was opposed to Israels wars which I might add were little different in outcome as Adolf Hitler, overthrowing dozens of countries, costing the US taxpayer trillions and causing untold misery over a 30 year period... and then some, and he seems to be going after the Fed when he wants to check the gold reserves in Fort Knox.
He may be just biding his time, cleaning house first and looking to engineer the exit of Netanyahu.
The Israel lobby are too powerful to take on without a strategy.

http://x.com/badazn/status/1892702962419417598
http://x.com/pepedownunder/status/1892896378822807766
http://x.com/jorymicah/status/1893007403165024610
http://x.com/badazn/status/1892917640919732448

Why all the ownership in media?
They wish to control the narrative and peoples perception.

Now go back to your pro-neoconservatve claptrap and parrot some more bs, like the good little muppet you are.

mhaze,

Nathan,

<<YOU started the thread about the nurses....>>

And...? I mean there are many who start threads here, yourself included.

The original topic was a specific and broad one. People such as yourself have turned the debate into one about public safety and these nurses (particularly for patients) and I have asked for an audit of industries (including healthcare) to weed out those with views that don't gel, so we don't face or have to deal with people who put out views, thoughts and feelings that don't resonate with certain people - just to be on the safe side. I mean we could have a health system crawling with antisemitic doctors, nurses and health professionals.

I've asked for your views on an audit, no response, so I'll end that there.

<<They made threats. Whether the threats were credible is not really the point.>>

Well yes it is, or we can just ignore the threats and let them get on with their work as nurses. After all we have a shortfall of workers in the healthcare sector as pointed out by myself in the initial topic and post.

<<If you go back a few days I proposed a scenario of a Uber driver... (which includes actions)>>

Well then that only reinforces my call for an audit of industries to find out what people's thoughts, views and feelings are. It must be noted your scenario included actual actions, not feelings, thoughts, views, making the scenario though totally different.

Someone saying something versus doing something are two different things.

<<Apart from all the other reasons they ought to be separated from any chance to carry out the threats....>>

There are lot of options there to make it all happen as they are a huge safety risk if we take you seriously, any suggestions? I mean they don't have to be nurses to undertake some of the things they've put out in words or maybe we accept their stupid comments were just that and move on?

"And...? I mean there are many who start threads here, yourself included."

But, but....you were complaining I was obsessed with talking about the nurses when the thread, your thread, was literally about the nurses.

Hi AC,

I'd just point out that despite often having very different view of the world to you I'd never question your humanity. Nor would I think differently of the many posters on olo as I believe their underlying humanity to be their fundamental motivation as it is with you.

What I get concerned by is people holding the belief that there are bad people in society and that it is possible, perhaps necessary, to weed them out. I think it the maelstrom of depravity that we all need to avoid.

Those nurses are not in a pickle because of what they believe. They are in a pickle because of what they said they would do to patients in their care. That they were removed so quickly after making those comments is an endorsement of the status quo.

mhaze,

<<But, but....you were complaining I was obsessed with talking about the nurses when the thread, your thread, was literally about the nurses.>>

No, and the post included the broader issue of free speech and related matters as per the post. So no.

If I just wanted to focus on the two nurses, I could have written, "two nurses in the media recently, please comment" and finished there, but I didn't.

We then have the comparison 'now' as part of an even broader debate of the potential of other, large numbers of antisemitic nurses, doctors and medical professionals out there in the system and the placement of views, emotions, positions and feelings some won't like that we don't even know about.

We could find out what such views, feelings, emotions and positions of these individuals are and remove such people from the system by putting in place an audit - now part of this debate. I mean we have two nurses here, how many more with similar feelings, we don't know.

To address a problem and come to a solution - we have to acknowledge we have a problem in the first place and realise it, not just focus on those (two mentioned here) who have spoken out, expressed a feeling or raised a position - and such discussion on others may come out later on in a debate.

Hi Fester,
"I'd just point out that despite often having very different view of the world to you I'd never question your humanity..."

Thanks, I certainly wasn't expecting anyone to say anything nice to me today.

"Nor would I think differently of the many posters on olo as I believe their underlying humanity to be their fundamental motivation as it is with you."

- Maybe many here yourself included just don't see and understand the world in the same way that I've come to understand that it is.
It's a shock to the system and a very hard thing to get ones head around that the world just isn't what we all think it to be.

I've been here maybe since late Sep 2014, the war in Syria was well underway, the overthrow of the Ukrainian government and the Maidan had already happened, and I've been speaking out against sanctions and overthrows since then.

I haven't really been wrong.
I spoke out about USAID and the NED, when no-one ad even heard of them.
I've shared policy papers and almost always provide some link to show that the things I say are not without merit.
It sometimes feels like I'm fighting with others perception of the world, which isn't actually how the world is.
I don't always get things right, but I know that I'm mostly on the right track.
I've always promoted diplomacy, dialogue, negotiations and compromise over conflict, I give credit where credit is due but I also criticise when it's warranted, and I stand up for the rights of innocents, even when those innocents are Jews despite being labelled a Jew-hater.

If I get upset from time to time, it's because maybe I've seen too much footage of horrible senseless things.
I think for myself but I also get my info from many others who are all more knowledgeable on the topics covered.

INTEL Roundtable w/ Johnson & McGovern : Weekly Wrap
http://www.youtube.com/live/Uys-d85-iug

Hi AC,

"Maybe many here yourself included just don't see and understand the world in the same way that I've come to understand that it is.
It's a shock to the system and a very hard thing to get ones head around that the world just isn't what we all think it to be."

I agree with you there and think it a good argument for free speech, and as I said before, I think that the sharing of differing opinions are fundamental to the development of knowledge and civilisation. But comment like this

"We could find out what such views, feelings, emotions and positions of these individuals are and remove such people from the system by putting in place an audit - now part of this debate."

goes beyond free speech and into the realm of free thought. The nurses were suspended as a public protection, but as the justice system is about actions rather than thoughts, they might argue their case in court based upon their record of service. That said, their public comments may be found to be a criminal act in their own right, and as convicted criminals they may no longer satisfy the good character requirement for professional registration.

Having free speech is essential in a democracy. We have that freedom with the knowledge that exercising it in the public sphere may constitute a criminal act, but treating one's thoughts in the same manner would be the foundation of an Orwellian Hell. Our private thoughts are our own business. We do not need Nathan's Gestapo.

Well Fester there was a video news clip of a policeman in the UK saying
to a women outside an abortion clinic that she was praying silently to
herself and that he will arrest her for making a silent protest.
I had read of that offense previously but did not believe it.
Kafka is well and truly alive.

Hi NathanJ

In an October forum on banning Nazi symbols, you posted:

“.. people need to be responsible for what they put out, and no we shouldn't have to put up with people who put out lies, misinformation and utter rubbish under some sort of free speech guise …”

And

“I really have no problem with banning nazi acts and symbols. It doesn't all have to be by the Government, but can include people speaking out for example and calling out their appalling behaviour. If some of it is though from government - so be it”

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=10487&page=0#365114

So, have you changed your mind on freedom of expression, or do you think different rules should apply in this case – and if so, why?

Hi Bazz,

There is lots of silly stuff that goes on, like the fellow at King Charles' coronation arrested for shouting "Who voted for him?" or the barrister arrested for holding a blank piece of paper on the basis that he might write something inciteful on it. The only sense I can make of those instances is from the perspective of them being interactions. And don't forget AVOs: Getting too close to a monkey can be a grave risk.

Hi Fester,

"We could find out what such views, feelings, emotions and positions of these individuals are and remove such people from the system by putting in place an audit - now part of this debate."

- Yes I agree, I don't think we need a Gestapo in Australia.
Things are bad enough already, and once you start down that path, where will it end?

I don't mean to be disagreeable to NathanJ.
I think I've come as close as one can get to having some understanding and consideration for the Sydney nurses and their potential frustration with the war in Gaza and their view of things as Muslims, but they said the wrong things, even if it was only said in the heat of the moment.

I hope they aren't punished too harshly if charged, it just gives Muslims more reason to have animosity towards us.
So long as no real harm was done, I think that should be the end of it - or if they are charged, a minimal sentence and a stern warning.
As I said earlier the loss of their careers is fairly tough punishment as it is, but they really left us with no other choice.

Hi Bezza,
I heard about a different story about the same issue.

Praying man breached abortion clinic safe zone
http://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4g9kp7r00vo

"Poole Magistrates' Court heard the former serviceman had his head bowed and hands clasped outside the British Pregnancy Advisory Service in Ophir Road.
The court was told he had been praying for his unborn son, who he said died from abortion 22 years ago."

From what I'm told if you live in a house that is within this safe zone, you may be risking being charged even if praying within your own home.

The UK is heading towards economic collapse.
Things could get really ugly there in the near future, if things weren't bad enough there already.

I wonder if Netanyahu will bomb Nasrallahs funeral tomorrow, just to get the war fired up again.

Hi Rhian,

My parents were friends with a couple who were children during the second world war in Germany. The guy suffered terrible trauma from the experience. I was a kid at the time, oblivious to what he had gone through, just as Nathan is oblivious to the implications of his plan for auditing. The poor fellow lived his life in fear, always keeping himself fit and alert so that he could make a run for it if they came for him, which he thought could happen at any time. He would go to a shopping centre and believed that the security guards were part of a surveillance detail to keep an eye on him. The terror eventually became too much for him and he took his own life.

Auschwitz was a prison for people who failed the audit. The Nazis believed that Jews had inherent character flaws which meant that they could never be a part of Hitler's great empire.

I think that health workers set a good example, not caring who you are or what you think, and offering only compassion and care to the best of their ability.

I think of civilisation as a garden. It can be magnificent in its diversity and balance. With Nathan's Gestapo audits it could become rows of cabbages.

I heard a different story not so long back Fester.
It intrigues me as to the truth of it, and I wonder if any of the answers lie in Mein Kamf, which I've never read.

The question is this:

Were Hitlers motives against the Jews in part because of what he saw them responsible for doing in Russia, and did he move to ensure they would not do the same to the German people.
(That is, if he didn't already see them doing similar things)
I also heard Hitlers book burnings, were actually literature that promoted transgenderism, not sure the truth of it.

I watched this documentary a while back.
When Hitler invaded France, the fist thing he went after was the Freemasonry lodges.

Nazis vs. Freemasons - Looting of the Lodges
http://youtu.be/0Gq_xmEoxG8

In the video you'll see that the 'Pyramid with the eye' on US currency is actually a symbol relating to freemasonry.

Rhian,

<<In an October forum on....you posted...>>

I wouldn't cut and paste from other discussion topics here as they were written in a different space, have different context and with different reasonings behind them, so it's not an overly healthy thing to do in that regard.

With discussion topics here sometimes complex ones also, it adds little value to a discussion topic either.

It's like me posting the following, adding it here and expecting it to resonate, make sense or mean something. It won't or doesn't.

<< Hi Paul

The Parliamentary Budget Office puts the cost at $250 million. Looking at the differences in assumptions that underpin the two estimates, the PBO’s look more realistic to me:

https//www.afr.com/politics/federal/treasury-claims-liberals-long-lunch-tax-break-will-cost-billions-20250203-p5l916#:~:text=Treasury%20estimates%20a%20%241.6%20billion,the%20full%20%2420%2C000%20a%20year.

It’s still not a great policy, but it will hardly “smash the budget” as Jim Chalmers says.

Posted by Rhian, Friday, 7 February 2025 4:18:31 PM>>

We had some people here in previous times who would copy and paste from other discussions and then say in essence this was your view from.... I never fully understood what they were trying to achieve.

Dear Critic,

«Starting to think you're affected by the same rhetoric Israels leaders have spouted for decades, Palestinians are animals, Amelekites, worthy only of extermination.»

Fester just remarked: "treating one's thoughts in the same manner would be the foundation of an Orwellian Hell. Our private thoughts are our own business. We do not need Nathan's Gestapo."

I agree with Fester. I am not your psychologist either.

«What are Israeli hostages lives worth more than innocent Palestinian lives?»

For me they are, for you obviously not.
Whatever be their ethnic/religious orientation.
And it is not only about their lives - in the horrific conditions they are being held, killing them outright would be a mercy.
It could have been any of my family,
it could even been myself while visiting them.

Besides, while the Israeli hostages are 100% innocent (which you failed to note), only some of the "Palestinians" are.

One INNOCENT "Palestinian" released yesterday was the hostage Hisham Al-Sayed http://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-843269
I am thankful to Allah for his release.

I am not on the side of the state of Israel (or any other state for that matter) or the ideology of its regime - I am on the side of the hostages. Period.
I do not wish any so-called "Palestinian" dead, I wish them all well, I want them to live and prosper in freedom and dignity, I am disgusted by the conditions in which they are held in Israeli prisons (at Ben-Gvir's instructions, may he himself soon become a hostage in Gaza's deep tunnels, wounded, untreated, caged in chains and starving for food, water, sunlight and air), but should all so-called "Palestinians" need to die in order to save just one of the innocent Israeli hostages, then while I would be sad for them, so be it.

[continued...]

[...continued]

«Half of Israel openly wants them all dead, the other half only want them all gone.»

BECAUSE of the hostages they took, because of their murder and rape of innocent people, also because of the rockets and fire-bombs they send over Israel - why else?

And still there is a great difference between the private thoughts of the latter half and the active actions of the former.
Would you feel any different if you had such neighbours?
Now if Australia had such neighbours, I wonder which half would you count yourself in?

«Don't worry about their families feelings because Israel routinely assassinates the entire family.»

Just more social-media rubbish.
Yes, Israel kills, sometimes more than necessary, it could be reckless but has no policy of assassinating families.
We know who murdered the Bibas family in captivity,
and many other innocent families in their own Kibbutz homes.

«On the other side, Israelis celebrate the carnage in Gaza.
Stop being precious.»

There are some bastards who do.
My family does not.
And why should I stop being precious - I love my family and so would you if you had any there, or had your family in Australia been attacked or threatened in a similar manner!

I will not read further down your post due to those filthy references to social media - I am not a masochist!

So on to your reply to Fester (since my name is mentioned in it):

«Israel Drops GENOCIDAL Leaflets On Gaza»

Leaflets kill?

If the Gazans don't want to die, all they need is to return all the hostages. So simple, they could have done so 16 months ago, they would even still have their homes then!

«Israel's caused all the Muslims coming to western countries, and made their problem ours.»

Like Assad murdering the Syrian people and Gaddafi the Libyans?
There was never a time for millennia when Middle-Eastern tribes did not fight among themselves, sending out refugees scurrying wherever they could.
Actually, haven't anglo-saxon inter-tribal fights caused the same effects?

Hostages Yuyutsu?

Why am I just this second seeing an image of one of yesterdays 6 released Israeli hostages embracing and kissing the head of a Hamas fighter?

The Image That SHOCKED THE WORLD & SURPRISING MESSAGE From Hamas To Israel
http://www.youtube.com/live/0jk4y4p0fV0

And why is it always 'minimise outrage of what Israel does' but 'maximise outrage of what everyone else does'

I bet if the Sydney nurses were putting hateful leaflets under the wipers of cars in a Jewish neighbourhood in Australia with a similar message, you'd hold a different position right?
Or are you saying that would be fine?

All this hypocrisy simply reflects just an attitude of Jewish self-entitlement.
I know some of the things I say you must find difficult to accept,
- But you should not have implied I'd send my own loved ones ahead to step on land mines.

The only reason the Muslims have to avoid land mines is because of wars on Israels behalf.
- And kids step on those land mines too. SHAME!

You know why people dislike the things I say?
- Because they're 'Inconvenient truths'.

Oh look.
It seems the story about the 80 year old man came not just from Israeli media but testimony from members of the IDF themselves.

Do I need to watch the whole 13 minute video or should I just give the first 30 seconds I watched the benefit of he doubt?

One Of Israel's VILEST War Crimes Yet - Where Is The Media Outrage?
http://youtu.be/p6QxbxkgJAE

Hi Fester

I think the audit idea is a terrible one. I’m not sure if it’s entirely serious, or just intended to make the point that if you dig beneath the surface, lots of organisations employ people whose values don’t accord with their employer’s or the wider community’s.

But if so, I think it misses the point. To me, the key issue in terms of free speech in general and the right of employers to sack people for expressing certain views, or professional bodies to deregister them, is the harm principle.

I support freedom of speech up to, but not beyond, the point where it does actual harm (not just hurt feelings or offended ideological sensibilities). So slander and libel are outlawed because they cause reputational harm. You should not shout “fire” in a crowded cinema (unless there is an actual fire). You cannot legally incite or threaten violence. I don’t think it should be illegal to wave a Swastika, but it should be illegal to paint one on a synagogue wall.

The same principle applies with professional and employment standards – employers have the right to sack or discipline employees whose public words or actions are harmful to their organisations, or, in the case of values-based organisations, openly conflict with their principles. A barrister who breaches client confidentiality should be deregistered. A primary school teacher who publicly advocates legalising paedophilia should be sacked. The President of the Vegan Society can eat as many rare steaks as they like in the privacy of their own home, but if they order one at a Society fundraiser, they should at least be censured. These rights are not absolute or arbitrary. Employment law has clear and, I think, mostly appropriate rules about who can be sacked or disciplined and under what circumstances. See:
http://nevettfordlawyers.com.au/is-freedom-of-speech-recognised-in-the-workplace/

Hi NathanJ

I take your point about context, and was not trying to catch you in a “gotcha” moment, but am genuinely interested in why you oppose the disciplining of these nurses on free speech grounds, but supported banning Nazi symbols.

Hi AC,

My take on Jewish people in Europe is that they were like any other people living their lives, then along came Hitler and decided that he needed to weed out the bad people to make a great German empire. Unfortunately Jewish people didn't pass Hitler's audit.

SBS has a docco on the Stasi. They interview some of the victims and the trauma they were put through is still very raw decades later. A compelling testament against weeding human beings.

https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/tv-program/stasi-a-state-against-its-people/2376375363779

Nathan,

"I wouldn't cut and paste from other discussion topics here as they were written in a different space, have different context and with different reasonings behind them, so it's not an overly healthy thing to do in that regard."

I've always thought that good writing was considered good because of the insight and application it gives the reader that often extends well beyond the confines of the work. Why do you think that great authors are so often quoted?

https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/tv-

The greater value of an argument is the insight it gives you of your self.

Rhian,

Sorry I haven't replied earlier. I've been replying a lot to mhaze (too much maybe), to provide a balanced reply and see if mahaze supports and audit of industries in terms of views, positions, feelings etc. to weed people out with feelings, views etc. that don't gel and get rid of them so they don't upset others. Still with nothing, I'm now giving up there.

Also, I don't like spending too much time here. It's not healthy with other things to do and I believe people should get out as much as possible.

In terms of people, comments and actions. I do have a position, but I need to do some extra research so I can frame my position in a way that is understandable and potentially also provide links and will do so when I have the time.

The Harm Principle Rhian. Thank you.

'Dark son of a b*tch': Trump posts video of economist saying Netanyahu dragged US into wars
http://www.jpost.com/american-politics/article-836924

A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm (War on Terror)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Break:_A_New_Strategy_for_Securing_the_Realm

General Wesley Clark: The US will attack 7 countries in 5 years
http://youtu.be/nUCwCgthp_E

'Everybody has the right to live how they choose so long as they don't harm others.'

- Is this how Israel acts with a foundation of ethics?
Or do they act like a nation of sociopaths?

Tell me where did all the Muslims that have f-cked the UK come from.
Where did all the Muslims that have done the same to Germany come from?

Tell me when some lunatic Muslim runs over 100 people in Germany, or when the British citizens are losing their minds over Muslim rape gangs targeting their kids, who is responsible for that harm?
What about the Muslim rapists in Sweden, France etc

99% of people blame the Muslims.
I'm the 1% who looks at the bigger picture and says
"If you have spiders in your bed, is the problem the spiders themselves or the person (or persons) WHO PUT THEM THERE?

You better watch that youtube video of Jeffrey Sachs in the first supplied link.
Israel has done IRREPARABLE HARM to all our western countries with it's policies on making war against it's enemies.
And what you subvert ALL OUR COUNTRIES with Israeli loyalty pledges and hate crime laws which make it illegal for me to say a damn thing about it.

[Cont.]
I have so any things I want to respond to on this thread, but honestly I'm with NathanJ, I've just got too many other things I have to get done in a short time right now.

I'll try to get back to it when I have more time.

As for the hostages Yuyutsu, I'm pretty sure even you admitted that Netanyahu would be just as happy if they were all dead rather than returned.
There's even testimony from the hostages themselves.

You all realise I don't even have to look hard for any of the stuff I post?
Thank the fine-tuned algorithms, I get all my info just as easily as one becomes informed by clicking Google News.
I can't click Youtube or X.com without getting dozens of bits of info in the space of 5 to 10 minutes.
Is it my fault I get a solid fill of in-depth information rather the wasting my time with the corporate (Jewish owned) media and their presstitutes?

Dear Critic,

«And why is it always 'minimise outrage of what Israel does' but 'maximise outrage of what everyone else does'»

I am not in the business of outrage, it seems though that you are.

«I bet if the Sydney nurses were putting hateful leaflets under the wipers of cars in a Jewish neighbourhood in Australia with a similar message, you'd hold a different position right?
Or are you saying that would be fine?»

No SPAM is fine!

Even for the best of causes, dumping litter on other people's property is trespassing and it hurts: pizza-places, land-agents, supermarkets, politicians - I boycott all who practice that.

«All this hypocrisy simply reflects just an attitude of Jewish self-entitlement.»

One of the six hostages returned yesterday was Muslim.
And before him were other Muslims, Thai Buddhists and Filipino Christians.
Devout Israeli Muslims were murdered and wounded in Israel on October 7th, Hamas gave them no discounts.
http://www.algemeiner.com/2023/11/10/i-rescued-a-muslim-father-and-son-following-the-october-7th-attack-that-killed-the-mans-wife-this-is-their-story/

«But you should not have implied I'd send my own loved ones ahead to step on land mines.»

Human/animal/chicken nature - most would do so to save themselves when faced with a high probability of being blown up by mines. Israeli soldiers do it and I bet you too would under similar circumstances. There were open discussions in Israel for and against the practice.

Deliberately killing anyone is a very different story.

«The only reason the Muslims have to avoid land mines is because of wars on Israels behalf.
- And kids step on those land mines too. SHAME!»

Land mines were planted in and around Israel in the 1950's, 1960's and early 1970's - not since and not in Gaza. Most mines were laid by Syria in the Golan Heights and some by Israel along the Jordan valley. The mined areas were marked and were meant to stop regular armies.

Israel is gradually clearing these mines, but it is slow and dangerous and meanwhile children and other visitors who do not hid the warning signs are sometimes hurt.

Yes, there is an issue with unexploded ordinances, but these were not planted deliberately.

Oh, somehow I forgot to add:

All the while Jews themselves are out making bomb threats against their own synogogues and painting NAZI symbols on their own walls.

US-Israeli teen convicted of threats against Jewish centres
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44641427
"He used the internet to make hoax telephone calls to the US, UK, Canada, New Zealand and Australia.
The threats forced evacuations and prompted concern among Jewish leaders about a resurgence of anti-Semitism."

http://x.com/Resist_05/status/1805449260072419583
Jewish man caught on CCTV staging antisemitic vandalism

And then what Jews scream victimhood, and extort millions from our governments to build Holocaust Museums, and make it policy to send our students to visit them in order to make sure everyone feels guilt for things that happened before they were even born and weren't their fault?

Sounds like a really great scam on how to subvert other countries, cause mayhem, and extort the citizenry.

Dear Critic,

«As for the hostages Yuyutsu, I'm pretty sure even you admitted that Netanyahu would be just as happy if they were all dead rather than returned.
There's even testimony from the hostages themselves.»

Admitted?
I think I said so first, and based on Israeli mainstream media, at least half the Israelis believe the same.
I think you were bursting into an open door.

«You all realise I don't even have to look hard for any of the stuff I post?
Thank the fine-tuned algorithms, I get all my info just as easily as one becomes informed by clicking Google News.»

What you do in the privacy of your home is none of my business.
But please save me from that rubbish.
You know I wouldn't go there myself (and even if I clicked on such link by mistake, my browser would block me), so if you still be as inconsiderate as to send me such dirty links to sore my eyes than I will not look any further down.

AC wrote: "I also heard Hitlers book burnings, were actually literature that promoted transgenderism, not sure the truth of it."

I am. Like most of the stuff you fall for, its utter rubbish.

They went after anything that was anathema to the Nazi ideology and of course anything that was written by Jews eg Einstein, Fraud. But also any anti-war books eg 'All Quiet on the Western Front'. Hemingway, Jack London. Anything supporting democracy or capitalism. Aristotle, Plato, Aristophanes. And millions of others. This'll surprise you but transgenderism wasn't all that big back in the 1930s and books about it wouldn't have fuelled a campfire let alone massive bonfires in every city.

Round & Round we go, with no resolution.
The Moslems had it in for the Jews from their very beginning.
I wonder if the organisation owning this site has had legal advise on
whether there could be legal action, perhaps just to delete anything
we might say on anyone at all.
I know I have written things that Islamists would say was blasphemous
and their lawyer might say contravened hate speech laws.
BTW, are any of you Apple mobile phone people getting ready to get
another brand ?
I see the UK government is demanding access to the encrypted text on
Apple phones. Then under Five Eyes it could/would be shared with ASIO.
Apple is saying no, so Apple usage in the UK may cease.

Still maybe we will all have to use Israeli phones with or without bombs as an extra.

Definition of Armchair Critic:

"A person who makes criticisms on a subject they have little knowledge of or practical experience in."

Many people and undoubtedly some posters here would have heard of Colonel Richard Kemp OBE, KCB.

Kemp was former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan; he also served in the Gulf War, Bosnian War, and Iraq War. He saw active service from 1977-2006.

He is not a Jew, but witnessed the front lines in Israel.

Kemp stated: "The IDF is at the forefront of all our fights against international jihad."

"The IDF is the most moral army in the world.

Colonel Richard Kemp (cont)

He has addressed many conferences.

Former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan Col. Richard Kemp speaks at UN Watch Rally Against Anti-Israel Bias
unwatch.org

unwatch.org/issue-208-british-hero-and-military-expert-tells-UN-IDF-most-moral-army-in-the-history-of-warfare.

Israel: the world's most moral army
Colonel Richard Kemp OBE, KCB
assets.ctfassets.net

Kemp has addressed many conferences regarding Israel and the IDF.

Regarding the two nurses.

I think that they are just stupid blow-hards.

Australia's health care is the envy of many countries overseas. It is unfortunate that these nurses have gained centre stage ... not a good look.

That they have lost their registration credentials is appropriate. I'm not sure about any further punishment.

I believe that they have become mentally unglued. With the publicity and fall-out from their actions, I think they have been punished enough.

Hi Rhian,

I'd put the behaviour on a par with other anti-social actions like speeding, graffiti, or vandalism, but, as you indicated, in the context of their employment it is much more serious.

They were an incredibly stupid pair to do what they did.

Colonel Kemp?
As in THE Colonel Kemp?

Well that's interesting.

Rhian was just saying earlier in regards to free speech that "The same principle applies with professional and employment standards – employers have the right to sack or discipline employees whose public words or actions are harmful to their organisations, or, in the case of values-based organisations, openly conflict with their principles."

Why is that important you ask?

- Well, that's because Kemp is on the IDF payroll, derp.

Revealed: BBC failed to declare interviewee’s links to the Israeli army
http://www.opendemocracy.net/en/bbc-newsnight-failed-declare-richard-kemp-link-idf-israel-army-gaza-palestine/
'Newsnight’s military expert Richard Kemp is head of a charity funded by the Israeli Defence Forces'

http://youtu.be/LukyMYp2noo

Ugh. [Rolls eyes] - Why?

'Most moral army in the world'...
If you scroll up the thread a bit WhiteMouse, I've detailed some of the things that make them so 'moral';

Here, I'll save you the trouble.

Collective punishment, torture, starvation, withholding water and medicine, blowing up hospitals and places of worship, targeting citizens trying to collect foreign aid, assassinating journalists, deliberately killing women, pregnant women and children, imprisonment without charge, assassinating medical responders, destroying food sources (olive groves) bulldozing homes, using Palestinians for organ harvesting and trafficking, and defending the rape of prisoners, and using Palestinians as human shields.

Right now though, I'm busy watching a member of the IDF dance to Joe Cockers 'You can leave your hat on'.
He's put in a decent effort, but I think Kim Bassinger did a better job, what do you think?
http://x.com/IhabHassane/status/1883579632215330970
http://youtu.be/x5nrtUYs8Y4?si=YTTsXR6Q-2ulz4Vo&t=91

Stated earlier:
"I also heard Hitlers book burnings, were actually literature that promoted transgenderism, not sure the truth of it."

I was a little skeptical when I saw saw the video on X, (below) but it looks like there's truth to the claims.
http://x.com/AtRealBen/status/1892603324941189325

The Forgotten History of the World's First Trans Clinic
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-forgotten-history-of-the-worlds-first-trans-clinic/
'The Institute for Sexual Research in Berlin would be a century old if it hadn’t fallen victim to Nazi ideology'

"Hirschfeld proposed the term “sexual intermediaries” for nonconforming individuals. Included under this umbrella were what he considered “situational” and “constitutional” homosexuals—a recognition that there is often a spectrum of bisexual practice—as well as what he termed “transvestites.” This group included those who wished to wear the clothes of the opposite sex and those who “from the point of view of their character” should be considered as the opposite sex. One soldier with whom Hirschfeld had worked described wearing women’s clothing as the chance “to be a human being at least for a moment.” He likewise recognized that these people could be either homosexual or heterosexual, something that is frequently misunderstood about transgender people today."

If Israel are so moral, then why are they routinely shooting kids in the head?

Israel Is Routinely Shooting Children in the Head in Gaza: U.S. Surgeon & Palestinian Nurse
http://youtu.be/EgSZ1fTk4r8

And what is with the IDF wearing the nght-time undergarments of their female Palestinian victims anyway, I've seen this quite a few times now, seems like a strange practice?
I'm not sure it's related to the transgender information above.

The nurses have gone international. A great advertisement for Australia's multiculturalism....

http://www.thefp.com/p/israelophobia-goes-mainstream-down

BTW, AC doubles down on the fuckwittery that the Nazi book burning was about transgenderism. I give up...the bloke's a fool.

Anybody watched "60 Minutes" last night?

The fundamentalism and its impact on Australia -
scared the heck out of me.

Thanks to Brendan O’Neill for ‘Israelophobe’ to add to the description of the anti-Semites on OLO and in the wider community. His article will, unfortunately, warn decent people against coming to Australia. All the ratbags don't see that what goes on in other countries, in other cultures, has absolutely nothing to do with AUSTRALIA.

I wish O'Neill hadn't referred to the scum as “Aussie nurses”. There is nothing Australian about them, born here, or accepted here.

The "nurses" unfortunately have a following.

The risk now is, that they will become "martyrs" with the ensuing rise in supporters.

AC

It used to be said that "a picture tells a thousand words",

Unfortunately, now "a picture tells a thousand lies".

This is especially so with social media.

Pictures can be cropped, photo-shopped, mis-labelled, staged and on it goes. I have seen pictures from a "war zone" which were actually pictures from Syria with no relevance to that labelled what so ever.

I have seen pictures of the "dead" in body bags, which were actually pictures of students protesting against war.

I have seen pictures of the injured, terrible pictures, that were actually photo-shopped ... others staged.

Don't believe any "information" obtained from social media, or other sites of propaganda.

Many social media sites play on the kind and the gullible.

Propaganda has reached new heights in deceit and lying

Rhian,

You refer to employer values and standards. It must be noted that employers have never held employees in high regard. Employers over time have:

1. Had employees work long hours, without a fair wage paid.
2. Provided little in employee benefits such as paid work leave.
3. Actively engaged in worker exploitation.
4. Underpayment with many employees living below the poverty line.

While there will be differences of opinion regarding issues, publicly sharing views which clash with the so called 'values' of an employer are hardly credible (argument wise) in terms of removing a person from a work role when employers have never had any standards to take seriously from their time of creation.

One example where this can fit in here can be the garment industry. If one looks at items made and the health sector many are made in places where people are paid a low wage, one recent example face masks for the COVID-19 epidemic. These links will provide you some perspective.

http://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7822568/

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-25/garment-homeworkers-urged-to-speak-up-about-their-working-rights/12900942

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-22/medical-supply-company-charging-$786-for-single-box-of-masks/12166438

In terms of a person losing employment based on comments made this should take a range of factors into account (words limited here), including a review that is fair and balanced, and the directness of the comments in question, so did an employee overstep the mark by expressing their personal views directly to a patient leaving the person at the other end feeling uncomfortable. It must be noted it should be seen as reasonable for that person to express those views elsewhere as pointed out and for individuals to be able to operate within two spheres - a personal one and a work one, particularly if the person has no criminal record and a good working record with patients.

For a person working in the health sector, it is perfectly reasonable to speak on matters like here (garment exploitation), regardless of their employer. It is not about their employer, their image, reputation or values as their employer values are non-existent and have never been there. Many employers have also treated their customers in a way that is hardly desirable either.

Hi Whitemouse,
I don't disagree with you, but I have a fairly decent BS detector.
Not saying I'm smarter than anyone else, but I probably have a better understanding of the way the great game is actually played rather than take things on their face value, and I was already somewhat attuned to it way-back-when in The war in Syria before either of these conflicts started.

Just as often than not it's video not just images.
Often the mis-labelled images get quickly caught out and there are community notes, and I'm not going to share something I'm not certain of or that I think may make me look foolish later, I'm no guru by any means but I didn't come down in the last shower either.

Hi NathanJ

Yes, there are many instances of employers treating employees badly. At least two of the examples you cite are illegal – and rightly so. There are laws to protect employees from bad employers, and there are laws to protect employing organisations and professional associations from harmful activity by employees/members.

I agree employees should be entitled to fair process. The rules they are expected to comply with should be clear, and the issues on which their freedom of speech is constrained should be material and directly related to the operation and/or objectives of the organisation they work for or the code of conduct of their profession. That is pretty much what the law requires. I have no problem with nurses complaining about exploitation of garment workers. I do have a problem with them threatening to murder patients.

Also, many organisations prohibit staff from wearing uniforms when participating in political activity. Former SAS soldier and Liberal MP Andrew Hastie was sacked from the army reserve for using a photo of himself in army uniform in his election campaign material.

I don't know how good or bad things are right now, but I remember a few years back and it seemed like employees private lives and what they post on facebook was in many ways scrutinised by their employers.

I disagree with this.
If you are just a regular employee, then the only thing an employer owns is your time, in return you have a duty to do your work to the level that is expected.

Your may be employed BY them, but you don't essentially work FOR them.
You're going to work FOR YOU, to improve YOUR own lot and take care of YOUR own family. You wouldn't show up for work if you weren't getting paid. You go there for the money you get to use in YOUR OWN life.

What you think, do or say is none of their business.
The only requirement is that you do your set employment related tasks in an expected manner.

So if you work for a vegetarian restaurant on minimum wage and want to post selfies of yourself at some event where everyone including yourself is chowing down on a pig on the spit, (a potential conflict) it's none of their business and they have no right to even bring the topic up with you, if they do, then they are discriminating against you just for raising the issue with you..

Dear Critic,

«So if you work for a vegetarian restaurant on minimum wage and want to post selfies of yourself at some event where everyone including yourself is chowing down on a pig on the spit»

What you post is not the issue, but the fact that you bring in, inside your stomach, partially-undigested pig into the vegetarian restaurant which claims to be meat-free.

The bottom line, people should be able to forge any contract between them and include whatever conditions and caveats they agree on within this contract. The detail that the conditions of this contract happen to include some form of what government considers "employment" should not change this basic fact.

This thread, however, deals with public/government employees, so that's a very different ball-game.

"This thread, however, deals with public/government employees, so that's a very different ball-game."
- Yeah that's fair, but I was just speaking generally about employee / employee relationships.

"What you post is not the issue, but the fact that you bring in, inside your stomach, partially-undigested pig into the vegetarian restaurant which claims to be meat-free."
- It's not about what the staff eat at home or elsewhere, it's about what they serve the restaurants customers.

The employer is merely buying their time in which the employee completes his or her task, whether that's the cook, the dishy, the waiter or waitresses or the person behind the bar. (if licensed)

I could be a tyrannical employer that sets a contract mposing 10 lashes for every 1 minute late, but that doesn't mean the contract is fair, legal or ethical, my contract would be illegal because it includes a right to assault the staff member and your contract would discriminate against meat eaters.

Australian defence force officer stripped of security clearance over loyalty to Israel
http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2025/feb/24/australian-defence-force-officer-stripped-of-security-clearance-over-loyalty-to-israel-ntwnfb

>>The man told Asio interviewers he did not view Israel as a foreign government and that he would share classified information with the Israel Defense Forces if they asked for it.

He also stated “Zionism is an essential theme within Judaism. Judaism mandates the loyalty of a Jew to his people and to the Land of Israel.”

“Allowing Jews to serve within the ADF must come with an understanding that the Jew will have a level of loyalty for the Jewish Nation and for [the] State of Israel.”

He said if the ADF preferred not to enlist or commission Jews, “it would then be argued that this policy may be discriminatory to the Jewish People”.<<

What if a member of Hamas applied for a job with the IDF?
After being denied he claims discrimination?

How can Australia employ people in our armed forces if they're openly loyal to a foreign nation?

Should we discriminate for disloyalty?

What if the cook gets on social media and says that he will spit on certain peoples food?
Answer = He gets fired because he brings the restaurant into disrepute.

Same story for the nurses.
They have a duty of care to all the hospitals 'customers'.
Take note that in regards to NathanJ's original discussion, I'm on the side of the Jews.

Muslim Vote convener warned by his education department employer over comments made on Sydney nurses
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-02-24/sydney-sheikh-wesam-charkawi-to-work-from-home-nurses-comments/104974798

This article adds a new dimension to the arguments.
And it also follows on from where I went a little off track.

It's ok to criticise me for my comments and for people to have a personal preference or feelings about Muslims and/or Muslim immigration (or immigration in general), but the question is do his arguments hold merit?

Yes or No?
And more importantly should he be punished for his opinions on social media?

If this guy has no right to say what he said as a government employee, then I'm willing to put my hand up and say it myself, and ask whether or not it would be reasonable for me to be warned for saying the same things?

Hi AC,

in your link I found another story.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-02-13/health-workers-condemn-nsw-health-nurse-video/104927954

"The union representing nurses and midwives said the nurses' conduct was "deplorable, unacceptable and cannot be tolerated".

"Health practitioners are bound by codes of conduct to care for all people, regardless of their circumstances," NSWNMA acting general secretary Michael Whaites said.

"Our membership embraces many cultures and we are all shocked by [Wednesday's] events. Members of trade unions stand together, united in opposing racism, bigotry and hatred," he said."

Dear Critic,

First just let me get the "security clearance" story out of the way - I agree with ASIO that this officer should lose it.

«It's not about what the staff eat at home or elsewhere, it's about what they serve the restaurants customers.»

Contracts are about whatever the parties agree on.

«The employer is merely buying their time...»

Well here you already judged the contract to be an employment contract, pointing at one party as "employer" and at the other as "employee", possibly without their consent.

What if they never intended their relationship to be employer/employee?
What makes it right for you to impose your own interpretation?

«a tyrannical employer that sets a contract mposing 10 lashes for every 1 minute late,»

Well it is you who deems their relation to be of employer/employee - what if they rather see themselves as a BDSM couple?

When a decent welfare system is in place, nobody is forced to sign such stupid contracts and while a tyrant might remain a tyrant, they could only tyranise the vegetables in their restaurant.

«that doesn't mean the contract is fair, legal or ethical, my contract would be illegal because it includes a right to assault the staff member»

It would be illegal because some politicians declared it illegal - big deal, this reminds me of the riddle:
"What is green, hangs on the wall and whistles?"
Answer: A herring!

Why green? because it was painted green.
Why hangs on the wall? because someone hanged it there.
Why whistling? so you cannot find the answer too easily...

Now if a contract seems to you unfair or unethical, then don't help any party to enforce that contract on the other, end of story but this should not prevent the parties from arranging that contract to begin with.

«and your contract would discriminate against meat eaters.»

So what? The restaurant belongs to the owner, that is his castle and he may do there whatever he likes. If you don't like it, don't visit his restaurant and even ask your friends not to visit it either.

So what you're essentially saying Yuyutsu is you support the right to discriminate?

Dear Critic,

«So what you're essentially saying Yuyutsu is you support the right to discriminate?»

Not the right - but the freedom.

Discrimination is a very valuable mental tool.
We should be able to discriminate between good and evil, right and wrong, and between truth and untruth.

Yet I also support the boycott and censor of those who abuse that freedom.

Im not saying the 'right to discriminate' is necessarily a bad thing either, under the right circumstances.
After all if say for example a child sex offender applied for a job in a child care centre, then I'm fairly certain we'd all agree it's perfectly fine to discriminate against them.

Food for thought.

Ok so what happens if say the Muslim nurses instaed of getting angry and holding their frustration in, then saying something stupid, instead chose to conscientiously object to treating Jewish patients at all whilst an ICJ accepted genocide was ongoing?

No risk of harm to anyone, just a denial of service.
Would they have a right to discriminate?

What about other people both business owners and/or their staff?
What if their reasoning was to not cause Jewish people any harm, just deny them service, so that Jews themselves would put pressure on Israel to stop the mass killings?

What if the Jews said 'Well Israel has a right to defend itself'
And the Muslims responded 'Well so do the Palestinians, it's an inherent right founded in international law'.

Why should the Muslim Imam be warned about saying things which are true, i.e. there are double standards in the outrage shown.

Should Australians be free to discriminate against people and cultures they don't want coming here, or should the will of the people be ignored because of some ideology decided by foreigners, and the votes of the mass influx of immigrants themselves?

Such a crazy confusing world of endless conflict, exploitation and hypocrisy...
I just want a fair world without conflict for everyone and for people to be able to live their lives with respect, decency and dignity.

Dear Critic,

«say for example a child sex offender applied for a job in a child care centre,»

Well obviously, but that's too trivial and not even presently illegal.

«Muslim nurses... instead chose to conscientiously object to treating Jewish patients at all whilst an ICJ accepted genocide was ongoing?»

I thought we already agreed that the public service is a whole different ball-game.
Tax-payer-funded activities should be open to the public et large.

«What about other people both business owners and/or their staff?»

Owners of private, non-public-funded businesses should be able to accept or reject at their pleasure whoever they like as their employees, suppliers and customers and also set the work-conditions for their staff, and their staff must abide by whatever conditions they agreed to - or leave.

«What if the Jews said 'Well Israel has a right to defend itself'
And the Muslims responded 'Well so do the Palestinians, it's an inherent right founded in international law'.»

That is a fundamental conceptual error: there are no such things as "the Jews" or "the Muslims": each person may have their own personal views whether they happen to be Jewish, Muslim, both or none.

«Why should the Muslim Imam be warned about saying things which are true,»

I haven't warned any Muslim Imam, that is not my place.

«Should Australians be free to discriminate against people and cultures they don't want coming here»

If they like, Australians may deny them certain privileges, such as citizenship, protection, health-care and welfare, which could indirectly deter them from coming, yet Australians may not directly prevent them from coming.

«I just want a fair world without conflict for everyone and for people to be able to live their lives with respect, decency and dignity.»

I have faith that the world IS fair, was created fair and will remain forever fair, even while it may not seem fair from a limited single-lifetime perspective.

Those who sow the wind are bound to reap a storm!
Those who do not will live with respect, decency and dignity, and like islands will remain untouched by the world's conflicts.

Q1 So who gets the blame for this?

http://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1894212218516115890

1. Netanyahu and his M/E wars?
2. Or our own pissweak governments frightened of discriminating against illegal immigrants and those who hate us and wish to exploit us?

Q2. What do you think would've happened to that kid if he got her?

Now multiply this by infinity.
Because that's how long the generations of your family will now have live with it.
And you can also thank weak sellout leaders like ours for it too.
They love it and are proud of it.

Anyone have any ideas how can we put the toothpaste back into the tube?

Rhian,

<<I do have a problem with them threatening to murder patients.>>

Do you honestly believe people who openly come out threatening to murder patients will go through with such activity? As some have pointed out here no, as they will be found out, with those undertaking activity going in to the negative of the patient doing so in private.

It is clear you only want those who do not say such words publicly and keep their true feelings bottled up to themselves to stay on in a workplace environment, but from those bottled up feelings you also have down the track actions.... I'm not sure if that's the best way forward.

This is why I have called for an audit based on mhaze seeing this case involving two nurses as a safety one. There are challenges so if achievable another story altogether, but still possible.

The best option in my view is to accept comments like these put out by the two nurses as being part of the free flowing, public discourse. Decide if they are to be taken seriously and if we don't take them seriously, then we simply move on. I mean we have so many bigger fish to fry out there, these nurses in my view two fish we can let swim away.

Hi NathanJ,

I think the nurses comments were probably said in the heat of the moment.
That said they didn't have to say what they did.
The Jewish patients in Australian public hospitals most likely are not involved in anything that happens in Israel.

They could've objected to anything Israel and the IDF are doing.
All the things I say critical of the war, they could've said those things, and they could've said they thought the IDF soldier was a horrible person for being involved in it.

But they didn't say any of those things.
They vented hate just like the Israelis display.
And even if they were being angry and snarky;
- 2 wrongs don't make a right.

They shouldn't be saying that stuff against any patients.
It goes against everything they stand for as caregivers.

Of all the people in the forum critical of Israel and that war, if there was a way to give it a pass, I'd be the one to do so, right?
But there just isn't, they were wrong.
It's black and white, there's no grey area.

I don't know how they could ever go back to being nurses.
They would never live that down, it wouldn't be fair on the patients or them either, because they would never be allowed to forget it.

Who put the spiders in your bed
http://x.com/realstewpeters/status/1894113630691491853
Welcome to Australistan.

And you lot wonder why I say the things I do.
I'm just responding to current global events.

http://x.com/AtRealBen/status/1894076482428796934
http://x.com/pepedownunder/status/1892896378822807766

By the time you see it, it's already too late.

The female has been charged on three accounts.

No one says a damn thing.
That being the case, none of you should ever complain about anything.
I swear the Israelis could eat newborn children and you'd all still be too petrified of the word 'anti-semite' to say a damn thing about it.
Pussies.

Anyway, I was saving the best till last:

Anti-Racist Hitler
- We need to help our Jewish brothers and sisters to become multicultural so Israel can survive.
Diversity is their strength.

http://x.com/FaustianFuture/status/1894093995946774552

Dear Critic,

«No one says a damn thing.»

Not while you interpose those links to filthy social-media.

«That being the case, none of you should ever complain about anything.»

Ah, here comes wisdom: everything comes from God, so indeed we should never complain!

«I swear the Israelis could eat newborn children and you'd all still be too petrified of the word 'anti-semite' to say a damn thing about it.
Pussies.»

I was recently told that "no one likes to hear that they gained weight".

«We need to help our Jewish brothers and sisters to become multicultural so Israel can survive.
Diversity is their strength.»

Thank you. It looks like you are not that dumb after all.

You know I was just thinking about the hypocrisy.
There's quite a few people on this forum that never said one single word about the Palestinian women and kids being killed.
But those same people jumped up and down like it was the end of the world when the Muslim nurses said what they said.

They cared more about a few words said in anger,
Than what Israel was doing or the reason he nurses were angry.

Hi Yuyutsu,

Well I'm not sure the God you believe in is the same one others believe in.
"Ah, here comes wisdom: everything comes from God, so indeed we should never complain!"

I'm not sure if God exists or not, but if so
Then I think they would support good, moral, ethically righteous things, not bad things like the harm of innocent women and kids.

I don't think everything comes from God, because man has free will to do both good and bad things.

Innocents killed on Oct 7 and afterwards both sides.
That's not the will of God but the will of man.

Jews are a strange bunch.
Tikkun olam is a Jewish concept that means "repairing the world" or "healing the world" and is a core princilple for many Jews.

But then, they also think:
"Goyim (gentiles, non-Jews) were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel," he said, according to the Jerusalem Post. "Why are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat. That is why gentiles were created."

Meanwhile...

"Kill ALL MEN In Gaza": Netanyahu Ally's Genocidal Demand Gets No Media Coverage
http://youtu.be/gKjvJhlmBM0

Then you have the masonic motto 'Ordo Ab Chao'
And many Jews are just begging for Moshiach to come back for the Messianic age, (like stupid Christians just begging for Armageddon in the hope they will see Jesus in their lifetimes).

I have no idea what Jews expect non Jews or secular people to think about these things.
3 wise monkeys?