In Israel, Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus, was asked what Australia's contribution to Gaza’s reconstruction should be. He avoided a direct answer, saying it was clear there needed to be a large international effort with no role for Hamas.

But, hang on. Australia should not have any role in reconstructing Gaza surely.

Australia has already misused taxpayers’ money that was scooped up by Hamas to be used against Israel. Hamas is responsible for the destruction of Gaza.

Billions of dollars worth of foreign aid was misdirected to support the “Palestinian terrorism machine in Gaza”. There is no sane reason for Australia or any Western country to ante up to rebuild Gaza. It should be left as a reminder of the legacy of terrorism. Surrounding Arab countries should take in fellow Arabs. It's not the business of the West to help out people who hate the West, and want to destroy an ally of the West.

Anthony Bergin of Strategic Analysis Australia writes: “Before Australia commits any resources to Gaza ….”.

Australia should not commit any resources to Gaza.

https://strategicanalysis.org/transparency-essential-if-rebuilding-is-to-be-of-gaza-not-hamas/

#No Australian Money For Gaza#

110% no money for Gaza. We have our own internal refugees living on the street, who should be first in line before refugees from the willing and compliant Gazan terrorist misfits, who are getting paid what they deserve.

There should be no refugees at all ever, enter this country from Gaza, under any circumstances!!

Dan,

The Albanese government preferences foreigners to its own people. Not sure that Dutton's mob are much different.

Any spare money Albanese has should be going into dealing with anti-Semitism and terrorists firebombing a synagogue and a childcare centre, and for the benefit of Australian citizens, not foreigners. Jewish Australians no longer feel safe in their own country. Absolutely nothing but vacuous yap is coming from Albanese and other Labor politicians and their false equivalence with greatly exaggerated feelings against Muslims, who feel so safe in Australia that some of them regularly demonstrate their anti-Semitism on our streets.

#The Albanese government preferences foreigners to its own people. Not sure that Dutton's mob are much different.#

Both parties are managers for the UN, which is stacked with Qatari sponsored (bribed), terrorist lovers.
Be sure Palestinians will be welcomed with open arms, since Qataris have the Australian political class bought out lock stock and barrel, as is the U.S.

http://www.dfat.gov.au/geo/qatar/qatar-country-brief

Qatar could sink Trumps RE empire; that is control!
This could explain Tumps dictate to Israel to accept the abysmal Israeli ceasefire with Hamas.
Virtually an Israeli surrender! Nobody predicted this to happen, and could further explain Trumps war cry, all hell will break loose if Israel/Hamas war continues past 20th Jan: now it becomes obvious that call was a threat to Israel, not Hamas!

Trump’s envoy to Israel, Steve Witkhoff, another RE mogul whose empire was bailed out to the tune of billions by Qatar, is tethered by obligation to Qatar.

Qatar is a direct sponsor of ME terrorism with Iran. It finances HAMAS and Hezbollah.
Not hard to imagine where the imputes for accepting Palestinian terrorists dressed up as needy refugees comes from and why, when Gaza’s to a man woman and child hate the West.
These are simply reenforcement Jihadist shock troops, battle hardened feeding into Western Cities for one fundamental purpose, killing Christians, Jews and anyone else not a fundamentalist Islamist.

Western politicians are compromised, including our own!

Kudos Ttbn and Diver Dan.

Australian manufactured or produced goods only in foreign aid !

Australian money may not be needed. The UAE is talking about funding the whole reconstruction, provided some way can be found to keep Hamas's grubby fingers off the funds.

Australia may be an island but it considers itself
part of the international community. Others have come
to Australia's aid in times of its crisis - whether
it was during bush-fires, drought, or floods.

Australia has always also helped others out.

Regarding Gaza?

The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade says " It is
committed in humanitarian assistance to support civilians
impacted by the conflicts in Gaza and Lebanon, and to
respond to the refugee crisis in the region".

"Much work will be required to address the immediate
humanitarian situation and significant challenges remain.
These include damage to infrastructure like roads, (hospitals,
aid). the presence of unexploded ordiance and the mass
movement of internally displaced people".

"The focus is on the needs of women and children".

We're told that "Australia will continue to act in
partnership with the international community to help meet
urgent humanitarian needs in Gaza".

How can it not - when it takes aid from others as the need
arises?

"The focus is on the needs of women and children".
Foxy,
Yes, we can send clothing, bedding, food, prefab homes, generators etc etc. Money won't help them because there isn't anywhere to buy from ! The sooner we change from sending money to sending goods the sooner the suffering will ease-on both sides !

Indyvidual,

Good on you for your suggestions.

I'm sure that whatever we send or do, will help those
poor people in Gaza.

They desperately need support. I don't think any of us
can really understand their situation. They need medical
support.

Their homes, schools, and hospitals have been
reduced to rubble.

There's not enough food, or clean water, and their health
system has all but collapsed.

Reading the human rights reports coming from that area we're
told that
almost every single person in Gaza including Red Cross
and other humanitarian workers and volunteers have fled
their homes. But there's no where safe left to go.

People desperately need help. The humanitarian workers
work tiressly day and night trying to answer emergency
calls and dispatching ambulances and paramedics.

The situation is truly dire.

We can't turn our backs on them.

The three recent hostages released by the terrorists have said they were held in a UNWRA (The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees) facility.

Yeah so let's send more money to them because they are obviously completely unbiased.

Sure they took part in the 7 October 2023 murders.
Sure they ran hospitals that were used by Hamas as safe havens for their fighters.
Sure they helped keep the hostages in captivity.

But other than that.....

Gaza has to be rebuilt. But it can't be rebuilt while-ever Hamas and the UNWRA are in place. No money should go there until that precondition is achieved.

When funding to UNRWA was cut and with Israel's unrelenting
bombardment and blockade UNWRA's critical role in trying
to assist Palestinian citizens was made much harder.
In Gaza air-strikes, famine,
and disease grew worse.

It was these civilians who were severely punished by the
taking away of the funding.

Following the United Nation's investigation and pro-active
commitments made by UNRWA toward complete accountability
and reform, countries have resumed their UNRWA funding.
Including the European Union, United Kingdom, Canada,
Australia, Finland, Germany, Japan, and Sweden.

It is a relief that the long overdue funding to UNRWA
has been restored, so that it can continue its vital
life-saving work.

"Australian money may not be needed. The UAE is talking about funding the whole reconstruction, provided some way can be found to keep Hamas's grubby fingers off the funds". (mhaze)

Good idea. Arabs looking after their own. There are no similarities between their culture and our own. Cultural relativity, multiculturalism - the whole deal - is a lie, told over and over by a handful of self-hating lunatics in the West.

Both sides of politics have signed international
agreements that obligates Australian to help out
in humanitarian crises and people in need.

Australia considers itself part of the international
community.

Those that disagree can take this up at the ballot
box on election day.

Hi Foxy,

Not much point in telling the 'Forum Usual Suspects', that Australia is part of the international community and is committed to international agreements, they don't understand that. These guys are basically haters who are only concerned about their own self interest and whats good for them.

So Foxy, you're going to ignore that the hostages were held captive in UNWRA facilities? When you don't like the facts, ignore them. Standard operating procedure for Foxy.

Here's another one for you to ignore. Al Jazeera reported that, once the ceasefire started, Hamas terrorists started emerging, fully armed out of the UNWRA hospitals. The UN had been claiming form the beginning that the hospitals WEREN'T being used to protect Hamas, but here they were coming out of hiding in those same hospitals.

Giving money to UNWRA or any other UN agency for that matter is the same as giving it to Hamas. Always has been. And we know that only a fraction of that will make it to the people who actually need it, with some being siphoned off to allow the terrorists to continue the fight against the Joos (and we know you're in favour of that!!) and some being expropriated to make the Hamas leadership wealthy.

I'm not against Australia sending a few bob over there to help out the actual Gazan people, but only if its an adjunct to Arab efforts to help them and only if it doesn't go via UNWRA/Hamas.

But I get that for some, virtue signalling is more important than efficacy.

Trumster,

The old saying that; "The first casualty of war is truth", holds so in this war, just as much as in any other war. I am thankful that a ceasefire has been enacted, whether that is down to your man Trump or Biden and someone else, probably its down to the combined efforts of many, only for the lives it saves is what's important.

BTW; Don't throw out your 'Buffalo Horn Outfit' and red, white and blue grease paint just yet, put it in moth-balls, might need it again in 4 years time when your "Commander In Chief" refuses to leave the White House for a jail cell. You might be called to action once more, particularly if the Democrat candidate wins the Presidential election in 2028.

mhaze,

As stated earlier - following the United Nation's
investigation and the pro-active commitments
made by UNRWA toward complete accountability and reform
many countries have now resumed their UNRWA funding.
including the European Union, United Kingdom, Canada,
Australia, Finland, Germany, Japan, and Sweden.

They obviously feel that funding is long overdue and
should be restored to UNRWA to do its vital life-saving
work and help innocent civilians and not blame UNRWA
for the small minority among its staff who wanted to
stop Israel's unrelenting bombardment
and blockade. Those people were sacked. UNRWA is
trying to assist Palestinian civilians in Gaza facing
air-strikes, famine, and disease.

This help will continue - despite your objections to medical
support and the fact that their homes, schools, hospitals
have been reduced to rubble and that there's not enough food,
clean water, and their health system has all but collapsed.

Your stance on these issues thankfully is not shared by
so many around the world.

Cheers.

"So Foxy, you're going to ignore that the hostages were held captive in UNWRA facilities? "

That's now confirmed by Foxy.

"Here's another one for you to ignore. Al Jazeera reported that,,,"

Yep...duly ignored.

Money given to UNWRA ended up with Hamas and was used to buy weapons.

Yep....duly ignored.

Money given to UNWRA ended up going into the personal bank accounts of Hamas leadership.

Yep....duly ignored.

You'll note that those closest to the issue - other Arab states - are refusing to give support to Gazans until it can be confirmed that Hamas and therefore UNWRA are removed from the supply chain.

Yep....duly ignored.

Hi Foxy,

No one here would argue that child abuse by members of the Catholic Church (eg Mother Theresa) should be ignored because of the humanitarian work the church does, yet you think the humanitarian work done by UNRWA reason enough to ignore both its abuse of children and its involvement with and support of terrorism. Why so?

Sending money merely extends the stupidity !

Hi Fester,

First of all my posting record should show you that
I do not support terrorism on either side of the
conflict.

Secondly -
I have not tried in any way to excuse the behaviour of
the small minority of UNRWA's staff who behaved badly.
What we are discussing here is funding to Gaza. And,
I stated that following the United Nation's
investigation and the pro-active commitments made
by UNRWA toward complete accountability, and reform
countries have resumed their UNRWA funding - including
Australia.

I thought that under these circumstances it was a relief
that the long overdue funding to UNRWA has been restored
to continue to do their vital life-saving work.

How is that supporting terrorism?

Or do you think that the European Union, United Kingdom,
Canada, Australia, Finland, Germany, Japan, and Sweden by
restoring funding to UNRWA also support terrorism?

I think not!

UNRWA's role as I see it is critical in trying to assist
Palestinian citizens in Gaza facing air-strikes, famine,
and disease.

People need help.

Not more terrorism.

I trust that this clarifies my position for you.

As for blaming the church or any religious organisations
for any abuse?

It's the guilty ones involved within the
institutions - who should be held accountable.
I'm sure you'll agree. And some have been not only
held to account but charged as well.

Cheers.

I think not!
Foxy,
Well, on the other hand, it hasn't stopped terrorism either, has It ?
Why not try ten years without UNRWA & see how it goes ?
It certainly won't change the lives of the genuine needy in an way !

“Sending money merely extends the stupidity !” (indyvidual)

Humans are born ignorant; they are not born stupid - stupidity is instilled into them via the education system, which teaches them to reject enlightenment, reject due process, reject freedom of speech, reject rationality, reject autonomy, and reject history. They are uninformed, anti-democratic.

Hence the BS that is expounded by the particularly ignorant Leftists here.

They also suffer from ‘Belief Perseverance’ whereby they hold onto beliefs even when they are presented with contradictory evidence. BP is closely related to ‘confirmation bias’, which is the tendency to search for nonsense and misinformation that supports their existing beliefs and allows them to dismiss any evidence contrary to their beliefs.

These people are incurable and not worth listening to.

It'd be interesting to see a pay slip for one of the hierarchy in UNRWA & other such humanitarian organisations !
As long as money is involved the bulk of the "aid" doesn't seem to go where it's meant to !
That kind of shortfall could be reduced a lot by just sending goods !

If anyone thinks that others are not worth listening to -
then why start any discussions? They can sit in fron
of their computers and talk to themselves or make it clear
that only opinions that agree with their own will be
acceptable.

Not sure if the moderator of this forum would agree with
that - but he can be asked. In any case there are quite a few
kindred spirits who support each other already here.

Sifting the sheep from the goats is not always easy. It's
a learning process.

Good Luck.

Indyvidual,

Goods are already being sent - but many times they
have not been allowed through.

Hi Foxy,

"How is that supporting terrorism?"

A dismissive stance was taken by authorities around the world when accusations of abuse were made against the Catholic Church many years ago. Like Jimmy Savile, the church was above suspicion and the complainants were labelled liars, attention seekers and trouble makers.

UNRWA is still very much integrated with Hamas.

https://www.counterextremism.com/blog/unrwa-and-extremism-frequently-asked-questions

The review the UN did was in house and little better than an RMIT fact check. Remember that UNRWA employee who borrowed an SUV to steal the body of an Israeli kid on October 7?

https://x.com/DavidSaranga/status/1878095245935522119

And you might note that Sweden is to stop funding UNRWA. Maybe Jew haters Albo and PenPen can follow Sweden's lead by cutting Australia's funding of UNRWA? I am incensed that Australia is funding terrorism and child abuse.

https://www.jewishpress.com/news/global/un/sweden-to-halt-funding-to-unrwa-in-2025/2024/12/21/

Hi Foxy,

You might also consider that UNRWA's response to evidence that its employees were involved in the October 7 massacre was to fire nine people. There is evidence that well over a thousand UNRWA employees are involved in terrorism and child abuse.

https://www.commentary.org/seth-mandel/arrest-and-prosecute-the-un-workers-caught-aiding-hamas-on-oct-7/

Fester,

"Israel controls the Gaza Strip's northern borders,
as well as its territorial waters and airspace.
Egypt controls Gaza Strip's southern border,
under an agreement it has with Israel.
Neither Israel or Egypt permits free travel
from Gaza as both
borders are heavily militarily fortified".

I don't think that taking sides in this conflict helps the
situation. What should concern us is providing help to those
who need it. By whichever means possible.

Fester,

Countries should continue to fund UNRWA. It's a vital
provider of aid to Palestinian refugees and cutting its
funding would have dire humanitarian consequences.

Foxy,

By not recognizing the maleficence of the UNRWA you are taking sides.

Here's your white privelidge
http://www.pm.gov.au/media/strengthening-jewish-community-safety

Why do we have Aussie govt funded holocaust museums opening in every state?
Jews must think this guilt selling project is Luna Park.

91 million Australia spent on Jewish privilege since 2022.

Isn't it funny how we will send military equipment to Ukraine, but we can't even send food or medicine to women and kids in Gaza?
- And whats worse is the ones who object to helping the women and kids are by and large Christians.

One-eyed Christians, one eye for Israel and none for Jesus.

It's not like we're sending the Palestinians military equipment.

What do I think?
I think as long as Israel has a policy of killing women, kids and journalists and using thirst and starvation as tools of war, that all aid to Jewish groups in Australia should be suspended and the money redirected to Israels victims, in the form of food, water, clothing and medicine, not money.
If Jews in Australia feel unsafe, they should lobby the Israeli government to stop killing innocents because they are becoming targets of other disgruntled western citizens, and they should pay for their own security.

Beyond that I think all foreign aid is somewhat treasonous so long as we have 100+ thousand homeless and citizens on hospital waiting lists.

WhiteMouse,

I have acknowledged the problems within UNRWA.
I don't believe that innocent Palestinian citizens
should be punished as a result.

Following the United Nation's investigation and its
pro-active commitments toward complete accountability
transparency and reform many countries who had
defunded UNRWA have resumed their funding.
Including as stated earlier - the European Union,
United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, Finland, Germany,
Japan, and Sweden.

I don't think that they (or myself) are taking sides.
Merely providing humanitarian aid to people who need
help.

Why does it have to come down to taking sides? Why can't
we be on both sides - wishing an end to this conflicts
so that innocent people on both sides don't suffer any more?

Finger-pointing does not achieve anything productive.

Hi Foxy,

You again claim that Sweden funds UNWRA. That is no longer the case for Sweden, Italy and the Netherlands, so your statement is false. Why do you not acknowledge that things have changed and continue to make a false claim?

Also note that Sweden has doubled its aid to Gaza. By no longer providing that aid via UNRWA, a child abusing organisation integrated with Hamas, the aid provided will likely do more good.

https://unwatch.org/hillel-neuer-on-fox-news-radio-unrwa-is-not-the-firefighter-unrwa-is-the-arsonist/

"Last year, we told them, the head of your teachers union in Lebanon, overseeing 2,000 teachers, Mr. Fathi al-Sharif, is a Hamas guy, and we sent them 100 pages of screenshots from his Facebook account showing that he’s clearly a Hamas guy. And then they did nothing, and then Israel eliminated him in September.

On the day he was eliminated, a missile came to his apartment, second floor apartment outside of the city of Tyre, Lebanon. And on that day, Hamas said, you killed our leader. Hamas said, and they put out videos showing this Mr. Fathi al-Sharif, a school principal for UNRWA, the teachers union leader for UNRWA, that in fact, he was a close confidant of Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas.

Pictures of him, and they praised, they eulogized his jihadi education. You couldn’t make the stuff up. And UNRWA didn’t do anything. And in the end, justice was delivered to him. But the point of the story is this guy for decades was teaching generations of Palestinians, and the American taxpayers were paying for it. The U.S. gave billions of dollars to fund people like Fathi al-Sharif, no more."

Hi AC,

Did you know that the Ukrainians now have kamikaze code hopping drones that home in on jamming signals? With this technology the Russian jamming equipment makes locating targets easier for Ukrainian drone operators.

I hope that Trump can help end the war soon.

Hi Fester,
No I didn't know that but it wouldn't surprise me.
Both sides are active in military development, trying to improve what they have to get an edge over the other.

I'd like to see an end to the conflict as well, but I don't see that Trump has an understanding of the situation or the means to offer the Russians anything that would interest them at this point.

Zelensky wants US troops in Ukraine.
Kellogg wants to freeze the conflict.
It's more of a ruse to find a way to win than accept Russias terms and accept the loss of the war.
And Russia will just keep fighting and win on the battlefield instead.
The West already threw every sanction they could against Russia.
They will only hurt themselves more trying just as they did before.

It all comes down to the Trump / Putin phone call and subsequent dialogue.

It will be interesting to see what Trump thinks about funding the rebuilding of anti-West, terrorist controlled Gaza now that he has put a 90 day freeze on US foreign aid.

It all comes down to the Trump / Putin phone call and subsequent dialogue.
Armchair Critic,
Well, don't forget that there are many Armchair Critics in those countries also !

Hi AC,

It is very difficult to call. Things can change very suddenly. Yes, Russia is making ground, but at great cost. Russia will likely counter with decoy jammers and the like, but the targeting of fuel by the Ukrainians shows that they know their history.

With the Weekend at Bernie's prez gone along with idiots making his decisions, I hope that someone is there with a viable plan to end the tragedy. I think that both sides are suffering, and Putin did look a bit shocked on learning what the average wage was in Moscow. Russia should be a powerhouse of the world, not a destitute pariah.

Hi Fester,
Yes dialogue is better than no dialogue.
The Biden administration had no contact with Russia.
So with Trump comes a chance for both sides to have discussions.
- But right now they are miles apart, and a long way from any agreement.

If you are hearing that the Russians military and economy are in bad shape, it's just posturing for Trumps sake, but worst part is Trump actually believes some of it.

Ukrainians wont last much longer.

"Putin did look a bit shocked on learning what the average wage was in Moscow. Russia should be a powerhouse of the world, not a destitute pariah."

- Many countries in the world would be doing much better if not for U.S. sanctions.
A third of the planet live under them.

$45 oil price cap would bring Russia to negotiating table — Kellogg
http://english.nv.ua/nation/45-oil-price-cap-would-bring-russia-to-negotiating-table-kellogg-50484512.html

The West is still trying to find a way to make Russia kneel.
But they can't win on the battlefield, and everything the west does results in a worse position for the collective West, though maybe not always America itself.
Saudi Arabia won't like the oil consumer nations trying to dictate the oil price, they certainly didn't like the $60 Russian oil price cap.

I think the world is a different place now than it was during the last Trump presidency, what may have worked for the U.S and Trump a few years ago is less likely to work now.
Americans are still too busy believing themselves to be the exceptional indispensable nation.
They couldn't even put their own fires out, let alone anyone elses.

Russia thanks to America is the most sanctioned nation in the world.
You don't get to point your finger at a nations struggles when someone else is deliberately causing it, wants to topple the government and loot the country.

Gulf of Magaland, anyone?

Facts first:

http://crikey.com.au/2025/01/23/donald-trump-inauguration-ratings-spectacle/

Sorry. Here's the link again:

http://crikey.com.au/2025/01/23/donald-trump-inauguration-ratings-media-spectacle/

What can be said about a person who calls opinions "facts", then stuffs up the reference to the "facts" and apologises for it when nobody (left wing cranks maybe) is going to look at it. Ultra-left, hate-spruikers ‘Crikey’ for heaven's sake.

I recently put up a post about this mental oddity of scouring for information that supports what you think, as well as conforming to group think because you want to be ‘with it’.

Hold whatever opinions you want, but own them. Citing someone or some organisation with the same opinions doesn't make you right. And it certainly has nothing to do with facts.

ttbn,

When you have the facts on your side - cite the facts.
When you have political experts on your side - cite the
political experts..
When you have neither as in your case - you hloler and attack.

shame on you for drawing attention to a sight-impaired
poster who sometimes makes typing mistakes.

Remember to be perfect.

Hi AC,

Russia was under no threat, invasion or otherwise. The invasion of Ukraine was its choice, and the war would end if Russia withdrew its invading army.

"Ukrainians wont last much longer."

Maybe, but they were only going to last a few weeks three years ago. Do you know that the most harmful action of the allies against Nazi Germany was a bombing raid on their main oil supply (not that they realised it at the time)? I suspect that Ukraine is targeting Russia's fuel infrastructure in the belief that it will have a similar effect. There are lots of cold and hungry Russians on the front lines. Less fuel will make it tougher for them.

Foxy linked to an article from Crikey which claimed that Trump's support was already falling based on a reduced viewership for his inauguration.

It did this by totalling all the viewers on free-to-air and cable TV. But what it failed to acknowledge was that, this being the 21st century, most viewers get their data from online sources. So 20 million watched on X, 30 million on Trump's Truth Social website, 20 million on YouTube. And so on.

When you total all the viewers on TV PLUS those online, the Trump inauguration was by far the most watched in history.

I suspect Crikey knew this but also knows its audience who are much more interested in comforting fables than the truth. The decline of Crikey is rather sad - it used to be a valued adjunct to Australian journalism.

Hilariously Foxy started her post with the cry...Facts first.

Hi Fester,
Russia always has ways to respond.
They can always throw a few Iskanders and Kinzhals at the gas storage in Lviv.

Trump and Musk seem intent on getting rid of Sholtz and Starmer.
Musk seems supportive of AfD and they are talking about taking Germany out of NATO.

Trump favors sanctions against Russia, but they've already survived the toughest sanctions ever placed on any country and their economy is ok.
If they take Russias frozen central bank assets Russia will just take 200 billion worth of the Wests assets in Russia.
Everyone is acting like Trump is holding a winning hand, but personally I think he's holding a pair of twos.

1.5 million Palestinians have moved back into Northern Gaza.
Lots of Hamas present during the handover of those 4 IDF girls.
Israelis will be asking themselves what have they achieved.

Mohammad Sinwar has taken over from Yahya Sinwar.
Israel are learning they cant fight their way to victory.

Netanyahu in court complaining about his poor health.
I hear there was an physical altercation between father and son.
Wife and son have gone to Florida.

""Ukrainians wont last much longer.""

AC's been singing the same song every few months for three years. Its no truer now than it was in Feb '22.

Meanwhile things are going so well in Russia that its needed to get new cannon fodder from North Korea. They duly got massacred. Its so bad that Russia is now issuing wanted posters for 3 Norks who turned their guns on their supposed Russia allies.

Its a generalised mess. Hopefully Trump can smack a few heads together and bring peace to the region.

Meanwhile in the sane world, Marco Rubio, new Secretary of State for the US issued orders that said that all US aid and any US actions will need to meet three criteria: "Does it make us stronger? Does it make us safer? And does it make us more prosperous?".

Australia? If only.

I don't see how Australia throwing good money after bad in Gaza meets any of those criteria.

All "asylum seeking" by Afghans has also been stopped.

We're told that the Department of Foreign Affairs
and Trade:

"Since 7th October 2023, Australia has committed $94.5
million in humanitarian assistance to support civilians
impacted by conflicts in Gaza and Lebanon and to
respond to the refugee crisis in the region".

"Much work will be required to address the immediate
humanitarian situation and significant challenges
remain. These include security concerns, damage to
infrastructure like roads, (hospitals and medical aid)
the pressure of unexploded ordinance, and the mass
movement of internally displaced people ".

"The focus is on the needs of women and children.
Australia will continue to act in partnership with
international communities to help meet urgent
humanitarian needs in Gaza".

Golda Mier gives an interview of the development of the conflict. 1973 interview, but as concise an analysis as you will hear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q5PZIBkQck

Funding UNRWA will only prolong and intensify the conflict.

Fester,

How about providing vital humanitarian aid to
people desperately in need of help?

Fester,

The US should withhold military and financial aid
until Israel has shown that it can comply with international
law including stop expanding the settlements.

They can't keep claiming they're the victims when they're
the occupiers. That's like Russia claiming victim status
against Ukraine.

How about providing vital humanitarian aid to
people desperately in need of help?
Foxy,
They have been advised for a thousand years as to how they could end prolonged suffering but they choose to ignore it ! I'm afraid there's nothing one can do except hope for natural attrition to do its job !

Indyvidual,

You said that they've been advised for years
on how they could end the conflict?

Being under military fortification and control merely
makes the continuation of ongoing fighting for freedom
a reality. Being an occupator, you can't keep on demanding
peace only on your terms.

Hi Foxy,

A similar number of Jewish people were expelled from nations in the Middle East. Those refugees migrated to Israel and became part of the nation. Why did the Arabs displaced from what is now Israel, after waging a war with the objective of removing Jews from the Middle East, not settle in surrounding nations as the displaced Jews settled in Israel? Is Israel responsible for the conduct of those nations in not accepting refugees?

The provision of humanitarian aid in Gaza can be provided by organisations other than UNRWA, and such aid can be given with more confidence that it will not be used to support child abuse and terrorism. UNRWA is an organisation for perpetuating hatred, abuse, intolerance and misery.

Fester,

In 1945 - Zionism had attracted more than half a
million settlers to a country that already had a
population of 2 million.

The local native population was not consulted, nor
was the objection to the project of turning Palestine
into a Jewish state taken into account. The settlers
managed to build a state within a state constructing
all the necessary infrastructure but failed in 2
respects.

They managed buy up only 7 per cent of the land which
would not suffice for a future state and they were also
a minority - merely one third of a country in which they
wanted to be the exclusive nation.

Although Israel today controls all of it politically,
it is still colonizing - building new colonies for the
sake of increasing the number of Jews there- dispossessing
Palestinians and denying the right of Palestinians to their
homeland.

History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and
unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility
of peace.

But I wouldn't hold my breath. Try getting hold of "Ten
Myths about Israel" by Israeli historian Prof. Ilan Pappe
from whom this information was obtained.

We can all hope that peace will occur soon in that area.
But for as long as Israel continues to be supported and
funded by the US - that's hardly likely to happen
and in the meantime resistance to Israeli control will
continue.

It's not a win/win situation.

Hi Foxy,

"We can all hope that peace will occur soon in that area.
But for as long as Israel continues to be supported and
funded by the US - that's hardly likely to happen"

No, the reason you won't see peace is because you have a population indoctrinated with the belief that it is their duty to kill Jews. This expat Egyptian was given a death sentence in Egypt for converting to Christianity. He was granted asylum in Israel and has just finished making a documentary examining the October 7 massacre and the mindset of the people who did it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YZ3bRWVX64

Fester,

Why start with 7th October? Why not start with the 6th
October and the decades prior to that date and what
has caused the mindsets that exist today?

Colonized people, even under the United Nations Charter,
have the right to struggle for their liberation, even
with an aemy, and the successful ending to such a
struggle lies in the creation of a democratic state
that includes all of its inhabitants .

Fester,

BTW: We're told that "Israel controls the Gaza Strip's
northern borders, as well as its territorial
waters and air-strips. Egypt controls Gaza Strip's
southern borders, under an agreement it has with Israel.
Neither Israel or Egypt permits free travel from Gaza as
both borders are heavily militarily fortified".

Perhaps converting to Christianity helps?

"Why start with 7th October? Why not start with the 6th
October and the decades prior to that date and what
has caused the mindsets that exist today?"

I did link the Golda Mier interview, which discusses the history back to when the land was controlled by the Ottomans, but tell me Foxy, do you think that raising your kids to have a genocidal hatred of a people can ever be justified, because i get the impression that you think it can be justified?

Those hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing the hatred of newly created Arab nations were given a life in Israel and embraced freedom, hope and tolerance. Those displaced from Israel after having lost their war to kill Jews and expel them from the Middle East were not granted asylum by their Arab brothers. Instead, they remained in camps and became a monocultural autocracy, embracing hatred, intolerance, genocide and terrorism.

Hatred will destroy the lives of those who embrace it Foxy.

Fester,

Until you're placed in the position (on both sides of this
conflict) I think that judging others or taking side should
be a hard thing to do. When you see your family, your country
and everything you love being destroyed it would be easy to
have hatred in your heart. At least for a time.

And what you teach your children - can apply to both sides.

It's a complex situation. However, I do not support hatred.
I would have thought my posting record would show that.
I've had too much of it hurled at me.

Hi Foxy,

Would the inhabitants of Gaza be in any danger from Israelis if they did not bear arms against them or otherwise try to harm them?

You also present the argument that Jewish migration prior to 1945 did not involve appropriate consultation with the local population (like Albo not consulting Australians about their wishes with his current migration program?). Those migrants were fleeing things like Nazi labour camps and probable extermination, so how is a consultation process supposed to work in the chaos of war? Look what happened to the poor buggers on the St Louis, and the fate of the Struma was plain murder.

"I've had too much of it hurled at me."

You make a huge contribution to the debates on here Foxy and I am in awe of your efforts.

I'm trying to make sense of things. Like you, I think multicultural interaction beneficial for the development of a civilisation, yet I see you opposed to a nation born of multicultural origins, siding with people of a Romper Stomper mentality.

"AC's been singing the same song every few months for three years. Its no truer now than it was in Feb '22."

They're running out of men and there aren't enough over 25s left.
Zelensky even admitted it.

http://en.iz.ru/en/1829395/2025-01-28/zelensky-considered-mobilization-ukrainians-over-25-years-old-insufficient

"Meanwhile things are going so well in Russia that its needed to get new cannon fodder from North Korea."
- I don't buy into this narrative, I'm yet to be convinced there are any North Koreans ground troops, I think it's just as likely they are Russians who are from the regions i.e Buryats. Russia does have a border with North Korea you know.

It was good that Trump has cancelled funding to USAID though, the department for regime changes...
http://www.politico.com/news/2025/01/27/top-usaid-career-staff-ordered-leave-00200854

One of the lies about Gazans among the tut-tutting about how sweet they are is the blatant lie about “genocide” and the misuse of the word to suit crazy activists and Jew-haters.

The population in Gaza grew by 2.07% in 2023, and by 2.02% in 2024. The only “genocide” in history where the population has GROWN!

Yes ttbn,
The Israelis can't kill them fast enough.

What was claimed - that is the figures shown that
Gaza's population has increased by 2.02 per cent since
October 7th, 2023 is false.

The figure is a projection that was calculated in
August 2023 and does not take the war into account.

Social media posts are falsely claiming demographic data
showing Gaza's population has grown since 7th Ocotober
2023 despite tens of thousands of Palestinians being killed
in the Israeli-Hamas war.

Fester,

Golda Meir once said:

"If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there
would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their
weapons today, there would be no more Israel".

What she should have said:

"If the Jews ceased their occupation, control, and
dispossession of Palestinian lands there would be no more
violence. If the Palestinians were given the right to
establish their own state - there would be peace.".

If Israel had a change of government and the Palestinians
could make their own decisions - and had new leadership
to help them out of the wilderness - things could change.
When you've got extremists on both sides who only want to
control Palestinians or kill Jews - it becomes an
impossible situation for both.

We can only hope that the ceasefire will continue.

What Golda Meir said !

Foxy,

The Palestinians have been offered a state of their own FIVE times, and they have rejected it, even when Israel was prepared to accept just 20% of the territory.

I suggest that you look at the archaeological history of the area. Jews were first ... Muslims were the last kid on the block.

Arab states detest Palestinians ... will not accept them. Look at the reasons why.

Did you know that there are millionaires living in Gaza?

If the Palestinians want peace, why don't they reject Hamas?

I suggest you read "Son of Hamas". Indeed a second son has come out in condemning the Hamas leader.

Israel has every right, indeed duty to protect itself.

All it needs for peace, is for Hamas to release all the hostages and lay down their arms. So very simple to understand ... even for you.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. Arab Muslims (Palestinians) have same rights as all others. They serve in the Parliament (Knesset) and even as ambassadors for Israel. There is no stampede to leave the country.

I increasingly get the feeling that this is personal to you.

I also get the feeling that you are antisemitic ... no condemnation of the horrific antisemitic displays in our country.

Australian Jews are not Israelis

Finally, the Israelis begin to learn they can't kill their way to peace.

Oh pick me, I'm antisemitic.
I don't support The Generals Plan, the Hannibal Directive or Dahiya Doctrine, I don't support their 'Mowing the grass' or the settlers attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank, I don't support killing women, kids, journalists, medical responders, newborn babies, witholding food, water, anesthetic for kids amputations and the sick or elderly, or directives given by a psychopathic lunatic religious zealots.

Also the hostages just may be prisoners of war in an occupation...
So there's that.

'No condemnation of the horrific antisemitic displays in our country'.
- Oh forgive me for not laying down on the ground in the fetal position and not peeing my pants as a display of solidarity to the foreign supreme chosen people. Australia is not Israel. What displays by the way, I may actually support stirring the pot, just a little.

If people think Israel is shite for killing women and kids and Jews get some kind of blowback or reaction, so what? I agree.
It should be expected, it proves we're human but I will denounce all violence irrespective of what side does it.

Do you denounce Russia's attack on the Ukraine?

AC

We know you are antisemitic ... I guess you absorbed that with your mother's milk.

It is completely illogical ... sign of a disfunctional human being.

Do you support Hamas? I guess they are OK with you ... after all they kill Jews ... babies, children, the young ... and the old.

Israel is a tiny country ... less than a third the size of Tasmania. They have a duty to protect themselves.

For this conflict to stop, it needs for Hamas to release the hostages ... not just the dead ones ... Hostages from babies to the elderly. And lay down their arms. So simple really.

Incidentally, when you become critically very ill ... I suggest you check whether the medication which will save you was developed by a Jew. Then you can decide based on your conscience.

Also AC,

The Hamas leadership are billionaires living lives of supreme luxury in Qatar, well away from any risk of conflict.

They have siphoned off all money intended for the Palestinians ... and will continue to do so.

"Do you denounce Russia's attack on the Ukraine?"
- It was unavoidable. Do you denounce the Wests coloured revolutions and regime changes?

"We know you are antisemitic ... I guess you absorbed that with your mother's milk."
- Don't bring my mum into it, she has nothing to do with my opinions.

I figured since you were throwing the anti-Semitic word around accusing others of it and trying to frighten them into backing off or silence, I thought maybe you deserved a response from someone who isn't scared of the word?

"It is completely illogical ... sign of a disfunctional human being."
- What is? Please explain, coming from the pro-genocide side of the fence I'm sure your response will be very enlightening.

"Do you support Hamas? I guess they are OK with you ... after all they kill Jews ... babies, children, the young ... and the old."
- I support the right of the Palestinian people under occupation to be free from oppression and have their own sovereign state.
- Do you support Israel formally stating it's borders?

"For this conflict to stop, it needs for Hamas to release the hostages ... not just the dead ones ... Hostages from babies to the elderly. And lay down their arms. So simple really."
- They took the hostages to use as bargaining chips for their own.
Do you support Israel releasing all the hostages it has, held on indefinite administrative detention without charge?

"Incidentally, when you become critically very ill ... I suggest you check whether the medication which will save you was developed by a Jew. Then you can decide based on your conscience."
- That's kind of retarded way of thinking.
So you're suggesting that in say in 20 or 30 years, I'll be older and my health may not be so good, and you want me to remember back to our discussion here and think to myself 'Maybe White Mouse was right after all and I was wrong, maybe it really was ok for America and Israel to murder all those women and kids and journalists with bombs and then starve and deny water and medicine to the populace after all'
- don't be stupid.

"The Hamas leadership are billionaires living lives of supreme luxury in Qatar, well away from any risk of conflict"
- So what? As are the Jews in America that buy out the U.S congress with AIPAC donations.
Miriam Adelson gave Trump 100 million to help him get elected..
And then as a result, American bombs and American jets made the genocide possible, so whats your point exactly?

Let's consider a hypothetical, imagine if someone gave you an assault rifle and ammunition and you go down the shopping centre and shoot the place up, then come back and ask for more ammunition, the person is watching the live telecast of your crimes on TV and knows what you've been doing, and then happily gives you more ammunition,
- Is that person not just as guilty of what you were doing by giving you more ammunition knowing exactly what you've done already?

Thanks for your reply, it's been fun.
All you need to do now is tell me you're a devout Christian and support Israel unconditionally, because killing women and kids is just exactly what Jesus would do, and I can roll around on the floor laughing!

'babies, children, the young'
- I heard those nasty Hamas put the babies in the ovens
(Really have to play on that word 'ovens' right?)
- Oh no - that's right it was all made up wasn't it to manipulate the TV audience.

Do you want to see some actual burned Palestinian kids?
Maybe some assassinated women and kids?
I saw footage of the Israelis shoot a pregnant woman in the middle of the street and then wait for people to come to her aid and shoot them too.
You want to see some kids shot in the head by sniper fire?
They used to just target the limbs but well October 7 gave the IDF free reign.
Do you want to see some Palestinians on fire - at the hospital that Israel bombed?
Do you want to hear about the journalists Israel assassinated, (along with their entire families of course)
Everyone knows I've already shared all of this footage and stories previously already [Rolls eyes]

Foxy doesn't support continued loss of life, and for that you attack her?
Looking at that reasoning you should be grateful I responded at all, because an attitude like that doesn't really deserve one.

- But as I said, it's been fun responding.

That word 'Anti-Semitic' only has power because people are frightened of it.
Well I just happen to be 'Anti-Genocide' which effectively results in making the word 'Anti-Semitic' null and void.

Don't blame us, it's not our ICJ confirmed genocide.
It's Israels. [shrugs shoulders]

WhiteMouse,

Itis not antisemitic to set the historical record
straight and critisize the Israeli government's
behaviour. And it is not personal for me to cite
Jewish historians to correct the Zionist historical
account of how the disputed land became the state of Israel
based on a cluster of myths that subtly cast
doubt on the Palestinians' moral right to the land.

Israeli historian Pro. Ilan Oaooe writes:

" It is sad that often, the Western mainstream media
and political elites accept this set of myths
as a given truth, as well as the justification for
Israeli actions across the decades".

"The tacit acceptance of these myths serves as an
explanation of Western governments' disinclination
to interfer in any meaningful way in a conflict that
has been going on since the nation's foundation".

I see no point in trying to explain anything to you.
Except to suggest that you get hold of the book
by Israeli historian Prof. Ilan Pappe -
"Ten Myths About Israel".

His book challenges these myths, which appear in the
public domain as indisputable truths. These statements
are, distortions and fabrications that can - and must -
be refuted through a closer examination of the historical
record.

Prof. Pappe also examines the myth that equates Zionism with
Judaism (so that anti-Zionism can only be depicted as
anti-Semitism). He tries to refute the equation through an
historical assessment of Jewish attitudes to Zionism and
an analysis of the Zionist manipulation of Judaism for
colonial, and strategic reasons.

I'm not interested in explaining things to you any further.

Cheers.

I don't know why you people would think Trump can bring peace to Ukraine.
Trump has a narrative that Russia is losing, and that he is doing them a favour.
But Russia isn't losing, Ukraine is, and the losing side (Trumps side) doesn't get to set terms.

'Anti-Semite', or just 'Not Pro-Semite'?
Why should I hold one race in higher regard than any other?
Are they actually the supreme chosen ones?

Someone could ask me:
'Excuse me Sir, I hear that you are not a Pro-Semite. What is the explanation for this?'
- "Well I don't care, I don't see them as a group of people being any more or any less important than any other group of people."

'How dare you, you're not a Pro-Semite therefore you must be an Anti-Semite!'

'Anti-Semite' is just a trick of slagging you off to make sure you are aligned WITH THEM...

"Please don't call me an Anti-Semite", Foxy says whilst laying there frightened in the fetal position, in a puddle of her own pee, "I'm really a Pro-Semite! - I swear."
- 'Well good, now just be quiet like a good Pro-Semite and just shut-the-f-up while we slaughter all these women and kids then, and kill the journalists to cover up the atrocities we're committing too, that are making us look bad. We'd like to continue with our ethnic cleansing for land theft 'Eretz Israel' project without the criticism of people like you, if you don't mind. Your concerns for these Palestinian peoples lives is really inappropriate.'

It's all quite sad and pathetic if you ask me.

Armchair Critic,

Please don't speak about me indirectly.

If you have any questions - ask me directly.

Thank you.

BTW ;

I can only be responsible for what I post.
Not your interpretation of what I post.

Also do not confuse Zionism with Judaism.

Not all Jews support the current Israeli government.

Israel is breaking off all cooperation with UNRWA because the organisation has been involved with various acts of terrorism and its ranks have been infiltrated by Hamas. UNRWA must vacate all buildings it has been occupying in Jerusalem.

Meanwhile, the Albanese government continues to send Australians’ money to this awful mob.

Irael has banned UNRWA from operating on Israeli land
for sometime now. And allegations against UNRWA
have been cleared up and countries continue to fund UNRWA
while Israel continued it bombardments and blockades.

Yes indeed some are definitely an "awful mob!"

Foxy,

I am not familiar with Ilan Pappe's work, however, have just spoken to an academic who is. He told me that Pappe is a Communist with a hatred to Israel. He openly admires Hamas.

He is also of the postmodernist school which use neither academic evidence, nor base their work on primary, historical evidence, but their own interpretation of history.

Pappe currently lives in England and has tried to mount a boycott of Israeli academics.

This academic advised that you read more widely about Israel, particularly works based on primary material.

Incidentally, this academic is neither Israeli nor Jewish.

Foxy,

Postmodernists have their own versions of history.

Any monies sent to the Palestinians will go straight into the coffers of the Hamas leadership. Palestinians will not see any of it.

"Any monies sent to the Palestinians will go straight into the coffers of the Hamas leadership. Palestinians will not see any of it."
- Yes we all saw how Sinwar died, - driving around the Gaza strip in his Bentley wearing his Armani suit draped in gold and living the high life with cocaine and topless women.

Hi AC,

I was more concerned by the hateful people at the hostage release. Wouldn't get that footage on the ABC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtpNTsdb1YI

Why aren't the descendants of the Jewish refugees in Israel as hateful?

Hi Foxy,

"allegations against UNRWA
have been cleared up"

Cleared up or brushed under the carpet? Why then did Sweden cut funding to UNRWA?

"Swedish aid minister Benjamin Dousa said that the decision was prompted because “[l]arge parts of UNRWA’s operations in Gaza are either going to be severely weakened or completely impossible” following the Israeli government ban on the agency in late October.

UNRWA’s Entanglement With Terrorist Operatives: Dousa noted that UNRWA was experiencing “a crisis of confidence,” citing its “lack of neutrality, hiring of terrorists, and antisemitic textbooks” in a post on social media."

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/12/20/crisis-of-confidence-sweden-eliminates-unrwa-funding-despite-nearly-doubling-gaza-aid-for-2025/

Doesn't sound like it's been "cleared up" to me Foxy. Then there is the story of the Hamas commander who was a school principal for an UNRWA run school. How can things have been "cleared up" with such contradictions?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/pflp-says-3-fighters-killed-in-first-israeli-airstrike-in-central-beirut-since-oct-7/

Yesterday President Trump gave universities 60 days to mark foreign students attending pro-Palestinian demonstrations so that they can be deported, along with other non-citizens. On top of ‘go, go to Gitmo’. What a fast mover he is. Nothing like our dopes, who don't even talk about doing anything.

At home, Adam Bandt was jabbering about Israel's non-existent “genocide” again, and criticising German Greens for backing arms to Israel and nuclear power. Animals hopping about on two legs are not the only weird things we have in Australia, compared with other countries.

Actually, I have to give a shout out to the Liberals who, also yesterday, started talking about defence and security, including DEPORTING “high-risk offenders”. That would depend on how Dutton deals with the still too many wets in the party, of course, and interference from judges appointed by Labor, as occurred last time Dutton as immigration and home affairs minister tried to remove undesirables. Returning the temporary protection visas scrapped by the Socialists is also on the cards.

Terrorism and border security just might be taken seriously in this country for the first time since John Howard.

Several terror attacks occurred in Australia lately, and we were very lucky a farmer came across an explosive-packed caravan, that the government and authorities knew nothing about and which Albanese doesn't want to talk about. He actually thinks the public should not be told about it!

Hi Foxy,
"Please don't speak about me indirectly."
- Well your comments demonstrated my argument, so I ran with it sorry.

You stand in support of innocent Palestinians, but when criticised you find yourself defending yourself time and again against accusations of being anti-Semitic.

- As if one would NEED to defend themselves over defending the lives of innocent people right? Think about it.

I too defend the lives of the innocents, but I won't be drawn in to the criticism, or silly games and accusations that are levelled at one for doing so.

They can call me whatever the hell they want;
- But I'm still going to defend the lives of innocents.

I'm only an Anti-Semite because others decided I was.
It was their definition when I showed myself to not be a Pro-Semite.

Israel probably conservatively killed in excess of 100K women and kids.
Not by accident by a policy which sought to inflict that kind of collective punishment, just as they starved and deprived water and medicine.

You think I'm going to lay on the ground in the fetal position in a puddle of my own pee because of accusations laid by those who were in support of that?
- The answer to that question is 'No, I won't'.

I'm not going to justify, defend myself or cop criticism from the likes of people who were either in support of a genocide or who gave it their silent consent.

Armchair Critic,

It's an old occupational habit for me to share knowledge
and try to dodge the spitballs. I'm not defending myself.
I stand by my beliefs. I merely try to explain and set
the factual record straight.

But at times it does get tiresome.

I'm glad that you're on the side of innocent people.

WhiteMouse,

Professor Ilan Pappe is an internationally renowed Israeli
historian. Formerly a senior lecturer in political science
at the University of Haifa, he is now at the University
of Exeter in the United Kingdom. He left Israel after
receiving death threats to him and his family.

Pappe has written more than 20 books on the history of
Palestine and the state of Israel, including the seminal
work, "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" (2006) which
makes clear that the driving out of 700,000 Palestinians
and the seizure of their land during the founding of
Israel in 1947-48 was a deliberate Zionist policy.

His latest work "Lobbying For Zionism on Both Sides of
the Atlantic" (2024) examines how pro-Israel lobbies
convinced British and American policymakers "to condone
Israel's flagrant breaches of international law, grant
Israel unprecedented military aid and deny Palestinian
rights while subjecting anyone who questioned
unconditional support for Israel to "relentless smear
campaigns".

Hi Fester,
Watched your video.
3:30 "If you consider yourself part of the Arab world, go live in the Arab world then"

Palestine 1896
http://youtu.be/1vaIK8wlAl0
'...In an Arab city much like any other'

4:00 "...a just cause based on history, based on law, based on divine right"
- It's ours because we are the chosen ones and God gave it to us.
[Rolls eyes]

Seems like God took it away from them too and gave it to someone else, that's why Palestinians we're now living there.

Arbel Yehud.
I think you have to look at the bigger picture here.
Not the best handover, granted.

Was Netanyahu the mastermind of Clean Break, and the War on Terror, including using ISIS to overthrow Syria which included people being beheaded and driven around in cages?
- Yes.

Whilst Arbel is not responsible for that she finds herself in the midst of thousands of angry Palestinians who have been bombed endlessly for a year, they probably ALL have loved ones who died, but she gets to go free with her life.
She should count her blessings.

That said she was merely a civilian, they should've let both her and her boyfriend go before IDF.

And in comparison, what of the tens of thousands of Palestinians tortured in Israels prisons?
We even saw Israelis defending IDF who were raping Palestinian prisoners.

"Why aren't the descendants of the Jewish refugees in Israel as hateful?"
Yes they are, especially the settlers - they teach their kids to hate.
Heres some low level stuff, mocking the dying, the worse stuff is the selfies while ransacking and destroying peoples homes - You think hate is not an element here?

Israeli Jew MOCKS the Palestinian civilians who have been killed or displaced.
http://x.com/DrLoupis/status/1865071741820694773

Or the willful assassination of women, kids, journalists and medical responders, I've seen it.

WhiteMouse,

" There is a long tradition among prominent Jewish
figures opposing the Jewish state who found themselves
like Isaac Asimov, in the odd position of not being a
Zionist".

To name just a few:

Albert Einstein, Erich Fromm, Primo Levi, Noam Chomsky,
Henry Siegman, Richard Cohen, Rabbi Michael Learner,
Miriam Margolyes, Antony Loewenstein, Richard Falk,
i.f. stone, to name just a few.

Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors of Nazi
genocide condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza.

Hi Foxy,
"I'm glad that you're on the side of innocent people."
- Well altogether my opinion is insignificant.
I'm not out in the general public protesting or adding to civil unrest.
I don't spout my opinions all over social media, I'm not trying to 'get views' or anyone else's attention.
I just exercise my right to have my say, that's all.

Fester,

Regarding UNRWA?

It was according to an unverified Israeli intelligence
dossier that shared with media organizations
that a small percentage of UNRWA's staff had links
to Hamas militants. However, the information was not
shared with UN experts who said that the Israeli
claims remained unconfirmed and that the accusations
were considered that Israel was falsly tarnishing
the UN agency.

Following the UN's investigation and the pro-active
commitment made by UNRWA toward complete
accountability and reform many countries have resumed
their UNRWA funding.

Including the European Union, United Kingdom, Canada,
Australia, Finland, Germany, Japan, France, Norway,
Netherlands, Switzerland, Italy, Denmark, Belgium,
to name just a few.

Armchair Critic,

Don't under-estimate yourself.

Drop by drop - even a mountain can be eroded.

Cheers.

Hi AC,

The ABC did run the story, so I stand corrected.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-01-31/israel-delays-prisoner-release-after-chaotic-hostage-handover/104880032

How terrified that poor kid looks. How many in the crowd are innocent, and with an UNRWA education a child's time of innocence will be brief before being taken into the fold of hatred.

Hi Foxy,

The example I gave you did not rely solely on Israeli intelligence and was independently verified by both Hamas and UNRWA, but thank you for removing the reference to Sweden supporting UNRWA (which now provides aid via other means).

Hi Fester,

Claims vs Facts:

http://anrwa.org/unrwa-claims-versus-facts-february-2024

Hi Foxy,

The link you gave is to an in house investigation of UNRWA.

https://www.unrwa.org/unrwa-claims-versus-facts-february-2024

Why should that be good enough to pass your truth test when anything from Israel you think suspect because it lacks independent verification?

Hi AC,

You are always thoughtful and make a big effort here. The silliest thing that people do is to think others bad for having a differing opinion.

Hi Fester,

I answered your question in error on another discussion.
So I'll try again here.

You asked me why do I believe UNRWA but not Israel?

Because one makes only claims, the other investigates
the claims, takes action and then presents their findings.

Also, as I stated earlier - for more that 70 years UNRWA has
provided support for Palestinian refugees across the
Middle East despite the organizations clashes with Israeli
officials over its work.

Israel has repeatedly made accusations against UNRWA employees
without providing proof and has continued blockades of
humanitarian aid. UNRWA has been a victim to a fierce
disinformation campaign to portray the UNRWA agency as a
terrorist organization.

And yet UNRWA has helped two thirds of all food assistance and
provided shelter to over a million displaced people.

Fester, this conflict is one of the longest running and most
violent disputes in the world. It's origins go back more than
a century:

Here's a history of the conflict explained:

http://bbc.com/news/newsbeat-44124396

Hi Fester,
So long as each side makes a claim on the land there will be conflict.
That conflict will play out in many different ways.

Hi Foxy

There is plenty of evidence of UNRWA co-operation with, and infiltration by, Hamas and other terrorist organisations. For example, Fathi Al-Sharif was assassinated by Israel in September and Hamas confirmed that he had been the head of their operations in Lebanon. He had also headed UNHRWA’s teachers’ union and was principal of an UNRWA school.

Admittedly it is hardly an impartial source, but this report by UN Watch contains plenty of well-documented examples of UNRWA collaboration with terrorists than can easily be verified independently with public sources:
http://unwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/UNW-129-%E2%80%94-The-Unholy-Alliance-%E2%80%94-2025-01-09-%E2%80%94-Web-%E2%80%94-Singles.pdf

Given that UNRWA has operated in Gaza for decades and provides many of the services such as health and education that in most places are provided by government, it is perhaps inevitable that it had to have some functional relationship with the Hamas administration. But that is in my view the source of the problem. UNRWA was supposed to be a temporary arrangement lasting only a year. It has become a permanent institution with a stake in sustaining the status quo, deeply captured by the anti-Israel sentiments of many of its clients. By providing services normally the responsibility of government, it has freed Hamas to use its money and resources to build tunnels, buy arms and fund and train terrorists. In effect, our taxes and those of other donors have subsidised terrorism. UNRWA is most definitely part of the problem, and I hope it has no place in the rebuilding of Gaza.

The UN has a professional and respected institution in the UNHCR which would be better suited to – temporarily – help in aid distribution once the rebuilding of Gaza begins

Hi Rhian,

UN Watch tells us that:

"UN Watch is a leading voice combating anti-Semitism and
anti-Israel bias at the United Nations engaging in
advocacy at the highest level of government and countering
misinformation in the media".

UN Watch says that "It protects human rights world wide
bringing dissidents to deliver testimonies at the United
Nations and parallell events".

You can read more at:

http://unwatch.org/about-us/our-work/

Cheers

Hi Foxy

Given the UN’s long and shameful history of hostility to Israel, I think it is good to have an organisation “combating anti-Semitism and anti-Israel bias at the United Nations”.

But that was not my point. Even if you disagree and suspect their motives, the documents UN Watch produces include detailed evidence that can be independently verified to support or reject their claims. So it is not necessary to decide whether you believe the UN or Israel, or even UN Watch. You can check the evidence for yourself.

Here, for example, is a Wikipedia piece that confirms UN Watch’s claim that Fathi Al-Sharif was both a Hamas operative and a UN employee:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah_Sharif

Foxy,

What happened? I always respect how much time, effort and research you you give to this forum.

Regarding Ilan Pappe, Benny Morris himself a radical Israeli historian states that Pappe is sloppy and dishonest. Pappe has even misrepresented Morris' work.

The Liar as Hero - Benny Morris
newrepublic.com

As for your other claims of notable people condemning Zionism ...

Albert Einstein was initially skeptical of the Zionist movement, however became an outspoken advocate for the modern Jewish homeland.

Erich Fromm (I don't think had ever been to Israel) was a philosopher and psychoanalyst. He was against the Vietnam war and involved in the international peace movement. He originally embraced Zionism, but his philosophical position was such that he didn't want to participate
in the diminishment of human existence ... effectively becoming a pacifist.

When Primo Levi was interviewed about Israel, he stated, "There is no policy to exterminate the Palestinians"

cont ...

Naom Chomsky condemned the US invasion of Iraq "the worst crime of the 20th century", he opposed the Vietnam war. He had both Palestinian and Israeli friends and believed in a two-state solution. He did condemn the Israeli government for "repression" in the occupied territories.

Henry Siegman was an ardent Israeli, who believed in a greater Israel where both Palestinians and Israelis lived together. He believes that the policy of the Net His family lived in Israel and he was immensely proud of his grandson in the IDF.

Richard Cohen wrote "Israel: Is It Good for the Jews?" He believed the Middle East would continue to reject Israel, not only the Arabs. But because Israel is western in origin, non-Muslim ... and Jewish. He traced the genocidal fervor towards Jews to Haj Amin al-Hussein, Mufti of Palestine who joined the Nazis war against the Jews and promised to do to them what Hitler was doing to the Jews in Europe.
He stated that "Israel is not evil, but merely human.

The very religious and devout Rabbi Michael Lerner protested the Vietnam war, and supported the Black Power movement. He is a Zionist, and a pacifist, but critical of the Israeli government.

Anthony Loewenstein, an Australian journalist, has never been to Israel. He recognizes Israel, but is critical of its government. Believes in a two-state solution.

Finally,

Richard Falk formerly the UN Special Rapporteur to Palestine condemns the death of Palestinians in Gaza.

Mariam Margoles formerly an anti-Vietnam protestor, wants to see a cease fire in Gaza. She is exercising her democratic right to an opinion, which all people should have.

When looking at statements and actions it is vitally important to see them in the wider context of what is occurring. Only then can one see a reason for these.

Many apologies to the posters on this forum for such a long post.

UN Watch is making a big effort to get UNRWA defunded by Switzerland.

https://www.instagram.com/hillelneuer/reel/DFDn1JyNvvR/

UN Watch has collected a large amount of evidence which the organisation hopes will lead to UNRWA being abolished and many of its employees being charged with war crimes.

I have seen reports that the Organisation of Islamic Countries vote as
a block in the UN. It seems likely their 57 member countries could
have a significant affect on staffing and programs of UNRWA.

Only western countries recognise Hamas as a terrorist organisation.
- i.e. not a global majority, and not other M/E countries only Israel
They are also the incumbent political party.

Basically just a small collection of Pro-Israel western nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
A number of countries, including Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States, as well as the European Union, have designated Hamas as a terrorist organization. In 2018, a motion at the United Nations to condemn Hamas was rejected.

Hi AC

"Only western countries recognise Hamas as a terrorist organisation."

With testimonials like this, Hamas passes with flying colours imo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDQq2QhZRN0

Hi Fester,

UN Watch is a leading voice and pro-Israel advocacy.
If you doubt UNRWA - why do support UN Watch?

http://un.org/unispal/document/unrwa-claims-versus-facts-press-release-26feb2024/

___________________________________________________________

WhiteMouse,

You found something wrong with most of the famous Jewish
people that I listed. Even saying that Antony Loewenstein had
never been to Israel.

Loewenstein has worked and lived in Israel for many years, and
has reported from Israel and Palestine since 2005.

You obviously have not read any of his books - especially
"My Israel Question" which was required reading for high
school students.

Criticizing a nation's actions is not the same as hating a
specific group of people and a person can be concerned
about the well being of Palestinians without being
antiSemitic. It's important to distinguish between legitimate
criticism and antiSemitic rhetoric.

However, I don't mean to preach. It's just getting tiresome
to continue to explain. For that reason I can see any further
conversation with you remains very barrow and unproductive.
For that reason I am politely going to disengage.

This is worth a read:

http://abc.net.au/news/2024-05-06/compass-not-in-my-name-gaza-antony-loewenstein/103789964

Cheers.

http://jewishcouncil.com.au

Worth a read.

Hi Foxy,

"If you doubt UNRWA - why do support UN Watch?"

UN Watch isn't part of the United Nations. It is an independent entity that observes the UN. For example, UN Watch has collected a large amount of evidence linking UNRWA employees with terrorism and child abuse. As far as I can determine, the objective of UN Watch in this instance is to make UNRWA accountable and bring its non law abiding employees to justice.

So to answer your question, I support UN Watch because I doubt that UNRWA is acting in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations and want it and its employees made accountable.

Hi Fester,

Of course UN Watch has presented "data" about UNRWA.
It's a group that works tirelessly at the UN to
fight against any anti-Irael and any - what it
considers antiSemitic views. And to them - all critiques
of Israel are considered as being antiSemitic.

The group also criticizes the UN Human Rights Council and
many other UN bodies.

The Jewish Telegraphic Agency has described UN Watch as a
pro-Israel and very biased organization.

Hillel Neuer is the Director of UN Watch. He's been described
as a prominent Jewish defender of Israel and has been named
in the top 100 most influential people in the world by
Jewish newspapers.

H Foxy

UN Watch is pro-Israel and critical of UNRWA. But it also presents detailed and independently verifiable evidence in support of many of its criticisms. In an earlier post, you discussed whether we should believe Israel or UNRWA. I don’t think we should take either at their word – we should examine their arguments and evidence. UN Watch has provided detailed and verifiable evidence in support of its claims that UNRWA has links with terrorist organisations, stretching back long before the current phase of the conflict

Good Morning Rhian,

The following might be of interest:

http://un.org/unispal/document/unrwa-claims-versus-facts-press-release-26feb2024/

Hi Rhian,

There's more at the following:

http://jewishcouncil.com.au/media/not-all-jews-agree-unrwa-funding-withdrawal

Hi Foxy,

You have posted a link to the same fig jam assessment several times now. All it does is demonstrate how you are willing to accept UNRWA on its own assessment yet reject information from groups supportive of Israel like UN Watch, which can be independently verified as Rhian points out.

Here is the story of a Gaza resident who wrote for Al Jazeera, detailing the genocide in Gaza. He took part in the October 7 massacre and was filmed taking a hostage on the back of his motorcycle from the Nova festival.

https://www.instagram.com/cbsmornings/reel/CyL6ldAuUyD/?hl=fa

It turned out that the resident was holding three hostages in his own home. Those hostages were rescued by the IDF.

"This is exactly what happened. The ‘journalist’ actually kidnapped Noa, from the Nova music festival, on his motorbike, while she was screaming behind him. The image was on all the front pages and still people deny it. He was very well paid by hamas to keep them locked up. Same with those ‘civilians’ holding the other hostages. They are all complicit. As soon as the IDF rescued the hostages, and were leaving the building, Hamas charged up to the roof, surrounding buildings and the market place, firing RPGs, throwing grenades and firing AK47’s. They was a gunfight with hamas, before IDF took off. IDF didn’t carry RPGs, so hamas are responsible for the bodies of civilians with missing limbs etc."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13512829/Three-rescued-Israeli-hostages-held-Gaza-journalist.html

Hi Fester,

Did you read the link I cited from the United Nations?
It details their investigations about the claims made
and the facts found by various investigative bodies.

What you believe is your choice.

Personally I don't trust an organization like UN Watch
whose purpose is to defend Israel's actions and any criticisms
of Israel is seen as being antiSemitic.

I'm not trying to defend the behabiour of Hamas. Not for a
moment. But the behaviour of Israel can't be defended wither.

Hi Fester,

Here's what Amnesty has to say:

http://amnesty.org.au/israels-ban-on-unrwa-is-an-illegal-attack-on-humanitarian-aid/

Since my suggestion that Gaza should be left as is: a warning against terrorism, and all Gazans should be re-homed in neighbouring Muslim countries, President Trump has suggested the same thing.

These wonderful, caring Muslim countries have rejected the idea, preferring the stupid West to continue taking in Muslims so, eventually, those stupid countries will also become Muslim, which is the big plan.

The Palestinian people as so many have testified are
not being treated in a humane way.

Miriam Margolyes, and many others, have told us how
Palestinian lives have been disrupted, made miserable, how they
had been torn from their homes, and their lands taken
away. How their daily lives are being squeezed and
destroyed.

How Jews have the full right of return. No Palestinian
does.

As Miriam says:

It's just not fair. She adds:

The Israelis seem to feel that they can carry through
things without any reference to international law.
What they are doing is illegal. But nobody seems to be
taking any notice.

And now - of course the antisemites have an excuse to
support their vile bigotry.

It's lazy thinking. To hate and attack Jews because of
one's feelings about Palestine, this is not acceptable. It's the
Israeli government's persecution of the Palestinian people
that's the evil - not being Jewish. But unfortunately those
who are Jewish and speak out against the Israeli government
are tarred with the epithet of "self-hating Jew".

And of course those who aren't Jews and speak out - are
antisemities.

Unfortunately antisemitism has a long history not only in
Australia but around the world. But it's people like
investigative journalist Antony Loewenstein and many
others, do set the record straight.

Here is one reason for anti-Semitism in Australia.

The ‘Grand Mufti’ of Australia, Abu Muhammad, on October 10 posted, on Facebook that the Hamas atrocity against Israel was really “resistance against tyranny”, which is the “legitimate right for any human being”.

The Mad Mufti assured the weak-minded Australian Left, already seething with a suppressed loathing of Israel and Jews, that Israel was the “brutal” party, getting what it deserved.

Al Jazeera: closed down by Israel and the Palestinian Authority (really! ) for broadcasting hate, is still broadcasting in Australia via taxpayer funded SBS (really!)

The Qatari Foreign Ministry also advised that Israel was “solely responsible” for the violence against itself. The much-easier-to-let-others-think-for-you Australian Leftist morons were “on cloud nine”, just as the Grand Mufti said he was.

Around 20 Australian universities are entangled with terror-supporting Qatar. The universities’ curriculums include brainwashing on Islam, under the guise of ‘Islamic Thought And Education’. Obviously of no particular use to Australians, so definitely brainwashing.

At the University of South Australia, an activist named (Professor) Mohamed Abdalla preaches ‘scholasticide and plausible genocide’ in Palestine. Plus crap like trying to liken the racism against the Jewish race with non-racial criticism of a religion.

Creeping Islamism is revving up the natural anti-Semitism of the Left.

Arresting a few anti-Semitic nutters calling themselves Nazis is a blind that they think will disguise their own anti-Semitism. The coming election will reveal whether or not they are getting away with it.

Professor David Flint writes that anti-Semitism in the Labor Party has been rife for 20 years; and it is damaging Australia's international reputation. Who would have thought we would ever be compared with Nazi Germany, and would hear Jews descended from First Fleeters saying they no longer feel safe in their own country!

Flint reminds us that Bob Hawke, a true friend of Israel, revealed 20 years ago that anti-Semitism was already “rampant” in the Labor Party. The hard Left was even then calling Jews “oppressors” in their own ancient homeland. Others joined in to keep the votes of the increasing number of Arabs they were bringing into the country. No expectations from them of those immigrants assimilating and adopting Australian values!

Now, the ALP is much worse. The problem has “festered”.

In David Flint's words, “Labor has unleashed a heightened antisemitism in Australia”.

The ALP has really gone down the gurgler since one of the decent, old time Labor men, Chris Hurfurd, Immigration Minister in 1990, tried to deport Sheik Sheik Taj El-Din Hilaly for being “against Australian values”.

Of course, the truly dreadful Paul Keating sacked Mr. Hurford and awarded permanent residence to the Islamist maniac.

An election is coming.

Colonized people, even under the UN Charter, have
the right to struggle for their liberation, even
with an army, and the successful ending to such a
struggle lies in the creation of a democratic state
that includes all of its inhabitants.

We've had recent acts of hate crimes in Australia.
Acts of antisemitism,
islamophobia, and anti-Arab and anti-Palestinian racism.

Amnesty International writes that we should call on
governments at all levels in Australia to
support anti-racism initiatives. Education and community
dialogue to address these acts.

They say that anyproposed legislation responding to these
recent acts of hate crimes should involve debates about
freedom of religion, speech, association, and assembly.

That governments should be urged to consult with human rights
experts and affected communities, and ensure that any
restrictions on rights are necessary and proportionate.

Australian should be able to live free from hate and with
dignity and respect.

They suggest that the hate crimes should not be a matter of
partisan politics.

But as we can see from the media - partisan politics is part
of the way the game is played.

We have a process that should be followed. The Prime Minister
has made his views clear. But he's not the police commissioner.
And our political parties can choose any political path
they like.

But then so can we.

Hi Foxy

Not all of the Israeli Government’s claims about the links between Hamas and UNRWA have been independently verified. But some have. The fact that some staff members were fired after the allegations were investigated suggests that there was some truth to them.

Furthermore, UN Watch does provide evidence to support its claims. And there are other independent sources that link UNRWA to Hamas and other terrorists, and have exposed its role in propagating antisemitism and advocating violence towards Jews. In the past few days, it has been alleged that some of the Israeli hostages kidnapped by Hamas were held at UN facilities.

This is not a new phenomenon. Concerns about UNRWA links with Palestinian terrorists date back to at least the 1970s.

Israel is a country at war. It has every right to withdraw co-operation from an organisation it reasonably suspects of actively supporting its enemies. And I don’t want my taxes helping to fund UNRWA.

UNRWA’s long-term involvement in Gaza has been very harmful to the wellbeing of the Palestinian people. As the main provider of basic services such as health and education, it has made it possible to sustain over decades a “temporary” arrangement that denies Gazans normalisation under a competent and accountable government. It has allowed Hamas to focus on building tunnels and accumulating weapons to attack Israel, rather than taking responsibility for standard government functions. And by insisting that Gazans are “refugees” with a “right of return” to Israel – even though most are the great grandchildren and great-great grandchildren of people who actually once lived there – they de-legitimise a genuine two-state solution, which in my view is by far the best prospect of a just and lasting resolution to this conflict.

Hi Rhian,

I'm all argued out.

http://bbc.com/news/articles/c8jy9v43z89o

http://bbc.com/news/newsbeat-44124396

Cheers.

One simply cannot survive in Gaza unless they cooperate with Hamas.
That includes UNRWA, journalists, doctors, teachers, women, children, etc.
Anyone who fails to do their bidding used to be thrown off a rooftop.
Now that there are hardly any rooftops left, they are denied water instead.

«Hamas atrocity against Israel was really “resistance against tyranny”, which is the “legitimate right for any human being”.»

Indeed, resistance against tyranny is the legitimate right for any human being - see above!

Yuyutsu.

You certainly did Israel a favour by leaving.

I am sorry to see that Foxy has left the forum. I wanted to apologize. Foxy was correct that Antony Loewenstein had lived in Israel. I incorrectly stated that he hadn't.

Pax and apologies, Foxy.

I did notice in his book "After Zionism: One State for Israel and Palestine" a collection of essays from various writers, Loewenstein includes an essay by Ilan Pappe ... and that of a very strange contributor Omar Barghouti.

The following are interesting reading ...

The unholy alliance: UNRWA, Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
unwatch.org

unwatch.org/exposed-UNRWAs-rigged-independent-review.

Statement by Philippe Lazzarini, UNRWA Commissioner General at the meeting of the Advisory Commission (ADCOM)
www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/statement-philippe-lazzarini-unrwa-commissioner-general-meeting-of-AdCom

Hi Yuyustu

I expect you are right. It beggars belief that UNRWA and other international agencies didn’t realise that Hamas was building tunnels and storing guns and rockets under their buildings, tapping into the electricity supply of their hospitals, or providing Anti-Semitic jihadist teaching materials for their schools.

But if so, it is clearly not possible for UNRWA to operate in accordance with its charter in Gaza.

Doesn’t that reinforce the case for Israel to refuse to co-operate with it, and for countries such as Australia to stop funding it?

Dear Rhian,

«But if so, it is clearly not possible for UNRWA to operate in accordance with its charter in Gaza.»

Very true, nobody could. Just watch the mob surrounding Arbel Yehoud when she was being transferred to the Red Cross - obviously impossible.

«Doesn’t that reinforce the case for Israel to refuse to co-operate with it, and for countries such as Australia to stop funding it?»

This is a difficult question, because it is not clear what one could do instead.

Everyone in Gaza must have cooperated with Hamas and knew what they were doing, for otherwise they wouldn't be left alive, so can Israel then cooperate with anyone whatsoever within the Gaza strip? If not, should Israel kill them all instead? or just starve them? I don't think either would truly serve Israel, or Australia.

Hi Yuyustu

I don’t know the answer, and hope brighter minds than mine can work out a solution.

I think UNRWA has become too entwined with Hamas, but I also think a huge humanitarian effort will be needed if Gaza – or better still, Palestine – is to become safe and liveable. Maybe the UNHCR would be a better option – it doesn’t have the long history with Palestinian terrorists that UNRWA does, and has experience working in war zones. Organisations like the Red Cross and MSF can also help. In the long term what’s needed is some political arrangement that allows Palestinians to govern themselves and provide their own health, education etc services. However well-intentioned its inception was, UNRWA has an institutional self-interest in remaining the “indispensable” provider of basic services and perpetuating Palestinians’ “refugee” status.

If Hamas cannot be “redeemed”, as Alon Ben-Meir argues in today’s article, then it must somehow be replaced. There are encouraging signs that it is losing support among Gazans.

http://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-poll-finds-big-drop-support-oct-7-attack-2024-09-17/

Christianity to be banned in Israel
http://x.com/_NicoleNonya/status/1886507070851047476

Anyone else trying to ban Christianity upon penalty of jail time?
Or is it just the Jews?

Christians support Israel and Israel wants the Christians in jail.
Geez those people are stupid, I mean how stupid could they actually be?
Christians be having fingers in their ears saying 'We're not listening'.

Dear Critic,

You are basing your "knowledge" on social media - of course I wouldn't go anywhere near there (and my browser too would block it if I clicked on a link there by mistake) and I have seen no clue to such claims in conventional and Israeli media.

As you observed yourself just yesterday, social media is totally full of rubbish and non-human-generated contents, thus Israeli Hasbarah authorities who tried to dip their hands in those filthy waters, themselves found their efforts reversed (I hope that teaches them a lesson!).

By claiming as if Christianity is banned in Israel, are you perhaps referring to the ancient Israeli laws whereby religious conversion of minors without both parents' consent and offering and accepting money for converting, are criminal offences punishable by 6 months, 5 years and 3 years imprisonment respectively?

To rebuild Gaza with a population that is already highly radicalised is to ask for October 7 to be repeated all over again. Any “innocent” Palestinians are Hamas's problem: not Australia's or any other Western country's problem; and not Israel's. Israel has already done a lot more than is reasonable for Gazans - their enemies, who want to wipe Israel out. You don't do favours for the other side when they attack you yelling “from the river to the sea”.

If other Arab Muslim Countries won't take Gazans in, too bad. We don't want them here spitting hatred of Jews - and worse.

A perfect example of spitting hatred that few could
top.

They desperately need support.
Foxy,
Just for a moment consider what the outcome would be if we gave them all we possibly could ?
Would they rebuild & then recommence the attacks on Israel or, would they live in tents among the rubble & continue asap with doing what got them among the rubble in the first place ?

I don't know whether President Trump was joking or not, but I him saw this evening talking about the US taking over Gaza, sans Palestinians and Hamas, and turning the strip into a holiday resort. The Riviera of the Middle East, I believe he said.

I also note that he is hosting PM Netanyahu at White House. The Albanese government probably wouldn't even give him a visa to visit Australia; but if they did, they would arrest him in line with their voting in the UN, and their agreement with the International Criminal Court.

Dear Ttbn,

Yes, this is what Trump said, and no, he is not joking.

It is difficult to watch as the Israeli government rejoices, with some calling it "God's finger", and Smotrich quoting from Psalm 126: "then said they among the heathen, The Lord hath done great things for them. The Lord hath done great things for us; whereof we are glad".

The Israeli political center, in opposition, supports the idea in principle, though is sceptical that it can be implemented in practice.

The Israeli left and Arab Israelis oppose this move outright, and so do Australia, China, Brazil, Germany, France, Spain, The UK and Russia.

But the view I support most, is that of Israel's president, Isaac Herzog, saying: "Nothing is more important than returning the hostages home".

As far as the Middle East goes, there are three important things:
1) The Israeli hostages.
2) The Israeli hostages.
3) The Israeli hostages.

So long as they are released and return to their families, who cares what happens next in Gaza?

Trump's idea, if implementable, is great for the ordinary people of Gaza, but I am apprehensive about Trump rocking the boat at this very sensitive time when the hostages are slowly returning.

Who writes; "but I him saw this evening talking" The Old Fart who berates others for their grammatical errors. This guy is barely literate himself!

As for Trumps "Plan", another bit of American expansionist policy. The Palestinian people deserve a safe and secure homeland, just as much as the Israeli people do.

President Trump has ‘doubled down’ on his plans for Gaza. He “reimagines” the Middle East in different terms from the same monotonous, continued, failing formulas built on “illusion, agreements predicated on fantasy, and a wilful refusal to acknowledge the fundamental realities of Palestinian rejectionism and terror”. Mollification is a thing of the past.

. No reforming of Gaza
. Removing Gaza's population entirely
. No illusions of Palestinian self-rule
. No more accommodation of the irredeemable status quo
. Dismantling the population that perpetrated the October 7 atrocities against Israel
. An enduring peace and partnership with Saudi Arabia
. Meeting with Jordan's King and President on the necessary actions.
. Ending Hamas
. Ending Iran’s nuclear plans

Trump says that living in Gaza is now untenable, and he is prepared to help its current inhabitants to live peacefully and prosperously elsewhere. Hopefully not in the West.

Dear Ttbn,

All well with this plan, but why expose it now at this particular most sensitive time when Israeli hostages are trickling out?

Let us finish getting all hostages out first, including stage 2 which also ends Israel's war so it can lick its wounds, for otherwise the remaining Israeli hostages there will die. Then afterwards Trump can make and implement whatever plans he likes for Gaza, no problem.

Even this coming Saturday's planned release of 3 wounded and/or elderly hostages is now in jeopardy and uncertain.

Just look up Lebanon in the sixties in Google images & read what happened to it !

Trump's plan has been labeled as "ethnic cleansing". Will there be a Trump resort and golf course, for when Donald visits?

It should be called out for what it is. The residents of Gaza have always been at war with Israel. It is their heritage, and like Monty Python's black knight, the aggression and hatred will always be with them. Trump has suggested the only solution that will end the conflict.

Hi Fester,

For political reasons the state of Israel was imposed on the Middle East by the victorious allies post WWII. There was no consideration given to the Palestinian people. A remnant population of Jews had peacefully coexisted with Arabs in the region prior to the formation of the state of Israel for a couple of thousand years. In fact Arabs (Muslims) accepted Jews as cousins through Abraham, so there was not a great deal of hostility. In the last 70 years the Israelis have grown stronger, thanks mainly to American support, which has allowed them to engage in an expansionist policy, which continues to exacerbate an already volatile situation.

It would seem Hamas's objective 7th October was to grab hostages to give it a stronger bargaining position with the Israelis, it failed. We can see the results of a determined Israeli counter objective of obliteration of the Palestinians through total destruction. What comes next, nobody knows.

Hi Paul,
The agreement with Saudi Arabia would've put an end to a Palestinians state, that's why they acted to put an end to it, Saudi Arabia then came out and tied that agreement to the creation of a Palestinian state.

Trumps not going to clear 1.9 million people out of Gaza.
It's an opening gambit, one that's now taken the problem out Gaza of Netanyahu's hands, which will lead to the end of Netanyahu.
Netanyahu didn't know what Trump was going to announce in advance.

Trump doesn't like Netanyahu.
A few weeks back he posted a Jeffrey Sachs interview extremely critical of Netanyahu.
http://www.jpost.com/american-politics/article-836924

Palestinians were given a strip of land that they really did not deserve; they trashed it; they elected a blood-thirsty terrorist regime to govern them; they raped, murdered and butchered the people who gave them that land. They do not deserve to have the land.

Had not Israel ceased “occupying” Gaza in 2005, the land would not be in ruin, and Palestinians would have had a life without Hamas.

Israel should have stayed in Gaza. There would have been no war. Now that there is a war, Israel should not have agreed to a ceasefire, which gives the impression that they are losing. The cease fire is a win for Hamas. ‘Never negotiate with terrorists’ has always been a strength.

If this ceasefire continues, Hamas will always be there, and Israel will continue to be under the same continuous threat.

Netanyahu has told Trump that America is Israel's greatest friend. In this case, maybe not. Trump wants to end wars, but can't end the constant threat to Israel.

The exchange of hostages is a farce. About a dozen Israelis released, but around 1,900 Palestinian ‘lifers’ let go.

The way things are going, it will be ‘back to business’ for Israel in the same way it has been since 1948.

Of course Trump's plan to see off Palestinians to Arab countries could solve the problem, but the howling from the UN and other anti-Israel groups will probably put the kybosh on that. It's not just Hamas and terrorist-supporters who want to end Israel.

Hi Paul,

"For political reasons the state of Israel was imposed on the Middle East by the victorious allies post WWII."

By the United Nations no less, along with the creation of surrounding states, which shortly afterwards declared war with the objective of removing Israel from the map.

"There was no consideration given to the Palestinian people."

Not true. Many of the so called "Palestinians" were labourers from surrounding areas like Egypt. Most of the Jewish migrants were fleeing almost certain death from the war in Europe. Nobody wanted them. Some of the argument that comes out about the Jews in Israel here could come from the rwnj handbook which you rail against. Why is such argument okay for Jews?

We can argue about the positions of Israel and Palestine
as much as we like. Positions have become hardened and
emotions run high especially when the tensions in the
region, here in Australia, or on this forum rise.

World leaders will now have to deal with the reality
of a new US president in the next four years.
A new leader who appears to be divisive. And they will
have to decide if the old alliances still hold.

As for Israel? If Australia and the international
community cannot prevent the US and Israel from
following through with the so-called "Trump's Gaza
plan" then we shall see international law and a
rules based order being consigned to the dust-bin
of history.

One thing that needs to be acknowledged is Israel's
current apartheid regime. Whether they live in Gaza,
East Jerusalem, and the rest of the West Bank, or
even Israel itself, Palestinians are treated as an
inferior racial group and are systematically
deprived of their rights.

Israel's cruel policies of segregation, dispossession,
and exclusion across all territories under its control
clearly amounts to apartheid. The international community
has an obligation to act.

Israel cannot be excused and given immunity to continue
to ignore international law and do what it wants claiming
self defence - when it is not the victim but the abuser
in of the areas under its control

we shall see international law and a
rules based order being consigned to the dust-bin
of history.
Foxy,
That's what some of the more switched-on European countries have started to distance themselves from. Italy in particular with the Albania situation !

"Israel cannot be excused and given immunity to continue
to ignore international law and do what it wants claiming
self defence - when it is not the victim but the abuser
in of the areas under its control"

No Foxy, there is still conflict because the Palestinian's have never ceased being at war with Israel. Again, there would be no conflict if the Palestinians did not bear arms and commit acts of violence and aggression against Israel, and UNRWA is still instrumental in perpetuating the hatred and violence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3doYRxogTQ

What has been the common objective of all the wars declared against Israel?

International "law" is joke; it can't be policed. Just ask Communist China.

Fester,

Israeli historian Prof. Ilan Pappe and others tell us:

"The Zionist historical account of how the disputed land
became the state of Israel is based on a cluster of
myths that subtly cast doubt on the Palestinians'
moral right to the land. Often, the Western mainstream
media and political elites accept this set of myths
as a given truth, as well as the justification for Israeli
actions across the land for more than the last sixty years
or so".

"More often than not , the tacit acceptance of these myths
serves as an explanation for Western governments'
disinclination to interfere in any meaningful way
in a conflict that has been going on since the nation's
foundation".

As for the Palestinians fighting back?

"Colonized people, even under the UN Charter have the right
to struggle for their freedom and liberation , even with
an army, and the successful ending to such a struggle lies
in the creation of a democratic state that includes
all of its inhabitants".

Netanyahu has made it clear that Israel is a Jewish state
for Jews only. And they will never give up their control.
You can't expect people who are denied their rights, and are
abused not to fight back. If Israel really wanted this
conflict to end - it would get out of the occupied territories,
and stop the land grabs and abuse of the Palestinians.
When you're the abusers you are not entitled to claim to be
the victims and demand everything your way.

Besides, only a moron would talk about "international law" in regard to Israel, which is defending itself against terrorists who have no regard for any law at all.

Some see "terrorists". Others see "freedom fighters".

Hi Fester,

Gaza has had a tumultuous history of invasion and occupation. It now has a population of about 2.2 million people, recognised as Palestinians. A two state solution is what has been accepted by the vast majority of interested parties, the major exception being Israel. The 1993 Oslo Accords signed by Israel and the PLO set up both the Palestinian Authority, and the territory boundaries which gave hope for peace and coexistence of Jew and Arab in the region. Unfortunately post Oslo has seen continuing conflict, with fault on both sides. Can there be a lasting peaceful solution reestablished in the foreseeable future, it doesn't look promising.

Fester,

http://bbc.com/news/newsbeat-44124396

Fester,

http://un.org/unispal/document/unrwa-statement-O4dec24

Only morons and seriously nasty people think of Hamas and other terrorists as "freedom fighters".

No matter what they are called, Hamas and other terrorists don’t take any notice of "international law", as the only democracy in the Middle East is a accused of not doing, by the morons and Israel-haters.

Leading moron, Wong, as gone as far as equating Isael with Russia and other evil states.

It appwars that when some posters on this forum run out of
arguments they need to resort to personal attacks.

However, what they don't seem to realize
that for their insults to work - we'd have to respect
their opinions.

Some posters type "appwars" instead of 'appears' in their rush to have last say. They are also under the illusion that other posters are looking for their "respect". Why anyone would care about the "respect" of a nagging, know-all shrew is beyond me.

Thanks for the links, Foxy (the unrwa document came up 404), although I find that this article presents the history a little more concisely.

https://www.ajc.org/IsraelConflictTimeline

Unfortunately none of the links answered my question: What has been the common objective of all the wars declared against Israel?

Most wars seem to have an objective, so I'd imagine that the wars waged against Israel had an objective.

Any aid donated from Australia should be created here as it has to benefit Australians first !

Fester,

As near as I can tell - the objective of the attacks
on Israel was- about ending the human right
abuses in Palestine.

The 100 year of human rights abuses have resulted in
attacks on
Israel. They are inter-connected. The exceptionalism
enjoyed by Israel, and before that by the Zionist
movement makes a mockery of any Western
critique of human right abuses in the Arab world.

The Jewish settlers are now an organic and integral
part of the land.They cannot and will not be removed.
They sshould be part of the future but not on the
basis Of the constant oppression and dispossession
of the local Palestinians.

Apart from no aid to Gaza, I don't care whether or not Donald Trump's take over of the place and removal of its inhabitants happens. It is nothing to do with Australia.

The only thing that should concern Australians is that people fixated on whiping Israel off the map do not come here; and those who are here should be sent packing back to Gaza.

Australia was an early signatory to the Geneva Convention
and their additional protocols and is deeply committed
to implementing and upholding its Internatioal Humanitarian
Law obligations. It will continue to send funding to Gaza
to help with the dire situation there.

As for the US president's "Gaza plan?"

Perhaps that's the same logic that suggested migrants
will eat your pets? Even Hanniball Lecter would have
been disgusted.

Hi Foxy,

So the newly formed Arab nations invaded Israel because they were concerned about the human rights abuses that were happening there? Do you really believe that Foxy? Have you compared the freedoms enjoyed in Israel with those of the neighbouring nations? Have the citizens in the neighbouring countries ever had greater freedoms than the citizens of Israel?

Foxy,
Look up Lebanon before Palestinians moved in !

Fester,

I was going to be flippant in my reply to you but
then I realized that would not be appropirate.

The best I can do is - politely suggest do more
research. Things can be explained and related to
from the universal perspective of justice and
human rights.

We need to clarify some of the deep misunderstandings
at the heart of the Insraeli-Palestinian problem, in
the past and in the present.

As long as these distortions and inherited assumptions
are not questioned, they will continue to provide
an immunity shield for the present inhuman regime in
the land of Palestine.

By examining these assumptions i light of the latest
research, we can see how far they are from historical
truth and why setting the historical record straight
might have an impact on the chance for peace and
reconciliation in Israel and Palestine.

See you on another discussion.

Cheers.

Foxy,
Have you looked up Lebanon before the Palestinians went there ? What is your conclusion ?

Indyvidual,

Have you ever visited Israel?

You should.

And then also visit the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

You may modify your views.

The Palestinians do not recognize the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestinian Partition Resolution nor any other resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them.

They regard the establishment of Israel entirely illegal.

WhiteMouse,

Not interested in discussing the Balfour Declaration
with you until you've done your research on the subject.
Cheers.

Hi Foxy,

Your belief that an opinion is only a matter of understanding the history is an interesting take on things. Melanie Phillips has a good knowledge of the history, yet her conclusions differ from yours. Why might that be?

https://melaniephillips.substack.com/p/an-obscene-spectacle

For me it is the extreme hatred of Jews that has always been the primary driver of the conflict, like these nurses bragging about how they would treat Israeli patients.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aSN8PmNLx0

"For me it is the extreme hatred of Jews that has always been the primary driver of the conflict, like these nurses bragging about how they would treat Israeli patients."

Firstly those nurses aren't in Palestine, so they aren't responsible for conflict in Israel.

When looking at complicated issues where there is conflict, it's helpful to try to separate the causes from the consequences.

Are the Aussie nurses comments a cause or a consequence of conflict?
Obviously they should not be employed by NSW Health.

As for the Palestinians themselves,
Would you hate people who killed your entire family just because they can?
I would, and I may even be driven to reprisal attacks upon the perpetrators because of it.

Is this hatred you speak of Fester a cause or a consequence of conflict?

When the State of Israel started with the Nakba, then is it not reasonable that all hatred may well be a consequence rather than a cause?

Heres an interesting document from a guy that worked across the hall from Fauchi.
http://www.scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-and-illegal-us-bioweapons-activity-an-insiders-revelations-2432.pdf

Dear Critic,

«Would you hate people who killed your entire family just because they can?
I would, and I may even be driven to reprisal attacks upon the perpetrators because of it.»

I understand, as many people would do the same, so OK, you are not a saint and neither am I, but is it appropriate to publicly broadcast and brag about your shortcomings and mental imbalance?

And you are not alone there - the Israeli far right shares this exact mentality with you.

Hatred cannot make you happy, hatred can only bring you all kinds of nasty diseases.

«When the State of Israel started with the Nakba, then is it not reasonable that all hatred may well be a consequence rather than a cause?»

The cause of hatred is always the same: the imbalanced mind of the hater. Hatred is never reasonable.
We all experience adversities at some stage or another, because this is the nature of life on earth, but when those of sound and stable mind get lemons, they turn them into lemonade!

Here is a description of an ideal saint, and while we are not there yet, it is something to aspire to:

"Those devotees are very dear to Me who are free from malice toward all living beings, who are friendly, and compassionate. They are free from attachment to possessions and egotism, equipoised in happiness and distress, and ever-forgiving. They are ever-content, steadily united with Me in devotion, self-controlled, of firm resolve, and dedicated to Me in mind and intellect."

[Bhagavad-Gita, 12:13-14]

And here are the words of another saint:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth‘. But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.“

[Matthew 5:38-40]

Hi AC,

"Is this hatred you speak of Fester a cause or a consequence of conflict?"

Both. Hatred of the Jews migrating to Palestine. There were many fleeing the Nazis and many countries did not want them. The Palestinians never gave up that hatred and look where it has taken them.

What upsets me most is the idea that someone should be "bad" for holding a particular opinion or for being of a particular race or heritage. Buying into such nonsense is nothing more than giving the mindset of hatred a foot in the door. Look at the forum for goodness sake: People holding a diversity of opinions, yet all wanting to see civilisation progress and prosper. The curious thing that I observe is that people will single out some opinions as reason to think civilisation at risk, when the truth seems to be that a diversity of opinion is more likely to found civilisation's advance.

The Palestinians never gave up that hatred and look where it has taken them.
- Maybe its simply just the land itself they refuse to give up?

Holding onto that hatred, what are they supposed to do, flush their principle down the toilet, as though all the lives lost and total human cost doesn't even matter.

Israel policy has always been to bring so much misery upon them that they choose to go somewhere else, that's a recipe FOR BUILDING hatred.

"The curious thing that I observe is that people will single out some opinions as reason to think civilisation at risk, when the truth seems to be that a diversity of opinion is more likely to found civilisation's advance."

- Agreed.
Dialogue works, but you can't reason with those who refuse to reason or refuse to seek an acceptable compromise to conflict.

It has been suggested that Trump's Gaza plan is really a pre-emptive move “for when the inevitable call comes for vast amounts of US and Western aid to rebuild Gaza once the last hostages are released”.

By offering to rebuild it his way, he is shielding the US against accusations of indifference.

It's also a safe bet that, without Trump and his plan, the UN would also be yammering to have US funding for the WHO and UNRWA restored.

Once the UK (Big Talker Keir jumped in saying everyone should help restore the anti-West pile of rubble) and Arab states might be left, by the US, to bear all the costs, they are more likely to be sympathetic to Trump's plan.

The “two state” plan has been a joke for decades, and Gaza will never have a future with very different thinking.

'No Australian Money For Gaza'
- Plenty of money for Holocaust museums though.

I knew something was up with this...
I had this feeling that they wanted to build Holocaust museums in every state.

Albanese Government to help deliver National Holocaust Education Centres for future generations of Australians
http://www.pm.gov.au/media/albanese-government-help-deliver-national-holocaust-education-centres-future-generations

"The Centre will serve to educate our young Australians about the horrors of the Holocaust and teach them from an early age that such prejudice, hatred and violence has no place here. Not now, not ever."
- Great, now all you have to do is teach the Israelis about prejudice, hatred and violence, as it seems to be a part of their DNA.

"Establishing Special Operation Avalite respond to and investigate antisemitic attacks,
A $57 million investment to improve safety and security at Jewish schools and synagogues,
An $8.5 million investment to upgrade the Sydney Jewish Museum,
$250,000 towards the replacement of Torah Scrolls housed in the Adass Israel Synagogue in Melbourne,
The appointment of a Special Envoy to Combat Antisemitism, Ms Jillian Segal AO,
An agreement of National Cabinet to establish a National Database to track antisemitic crime and other antisemitic incidents and behaviours. The Commonwealth will work with States and Territories on the development of the Database."

I almost want to go to one and be educated.

"It's not the business of the West to help out people who hate the West, and want to destroy an ally of the West."

You think of us or want us to be an ally of a genocidal terrorist state?
We may as well all just put photos of Hitler up in our lounge rooms to admire, that's how stupid that is.

Australia first, second and third, and everyone else equal last.

Nurse video cause for 'national conversation' on migration and citizenship, Peter Dutton says
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/nurse-video-national-conversation-migration-and-citizenship-peter-dutton/wke3cqxmr

"When we have somebody like this who gets through the net, obviously has breached his obligation about a loyalty to our country when he became an Australian citizen, and yet he has the ability to stay in our country, it should be of deep concern to every Australian," Dutton told 2GB radio on Thursday.

Neither Jews or Muslims are truly loyal to our country.
Dutton has a point, maybe we should ban all of them from coming.

Hi AC,

"Neither Jews or Muslims are truly loyal to our country." How do you measure "National Loyalty"? I think most of us are more concerned with our lives at a micro level than at a national level, and don't give much thought to things like patriotisms.

Well what must one do to be disloyal to their country?
What pains and disfigures the country most?

Obviously it is mining, poking ugly holes in the face of the earth. robbing off its natural minerals and leaving it in a mess!

Do Jews and Muslims do that more than others?

"Neither Jews or Muslims are truly loyal to our country".

Well that's insulting to Australian Jews and Australian Muslims, and undoubtedly completely untrue. How about Christian Australians?

Relion and culture doesn't denote loyalty.

There are people who are not loyal to Australia, and they are mainly Leftists, including a few posters here.

Loyalty/disloyality has nothing to do with religion, culture, race, colour or anything else. It has do with ideology.

Only the corrupt demand loyalty - the genuinely righteous elicit love!

The typical Australian does not spend their time wrapped up in some Hollywood style patriotic loyalty. Their more important concerns are everyday issues. The majority of us are proud to be Australians as it is our country that gives us the majority a very good life.

The forums old fart national socialist, views patriotisms in political terms, very much a them and us scenario, you either agree with his type, or you are disloyal.