Extreme Left-wing Victorian Premier, Jacinta Allan, is using ‘diversity’ to try ditching the Lord's Prayer before parliamentary sittings. The Leftists - ah bugger it - let's call them what they are: Communists - are wanting the same thing in Federal Parliament.

Get it? Bring in the Third World and non-Christians to create diversity, then use that diversity to move against Christianity: something they couldn't do without the mass importation of people not of our culture.

Mass immigration is not just about ‘growing the economy’; it's about killing our culture. As yet, the self-hating, anti-West lunatics engineering the First World into the Third World haven't twigged that it's only a matter of time before the change will come for them, too.

The most appalling thing about our political class (the non-Left is not doing anything about the threat from the Left) is that they are doing themselves, and us, in; it's not the multi-culties they want to replace us with. Apart from the odd mad mullah, most immigrants don't make the ridiculous calls for changes that the local diversity-cranks want.

Now, while I would bet that many, if not most, Australians would not know the words of the Lord's Prayer, it is a fact that democracy is firmly based on Christian principles and values. Without Christianity, there is no democracy. Whether you are a Christian or not, you wouldn't have had the lives you have had - on the back of Christianity.

Sneer. Chuck off at Christianity if you will; but, if goes, so do you, in a country that is already unrecognisable due to the constant chipping away of our values by people who are supposed to be serving your best interests.

Hmmm

"If I have to put a bloody gun to these peoples heads they WILL recite the Lords Prayer
They will learn to respect this country's religion god-dammit."

When you sit on the extreme like this bloke ranting about Christianity, everyone else is a "Communist", including the Pope!

AC,

Don't be silly. It's not compulsory. As I said, most of those in parliament wouldn't know the Lord's Prayer, and probably just sit their like dumbarses as they do for everything else.

And, if you wish to deny the significance of Christianity to Western democracy, that's your business. Just be glad you don't live in one of the places where religion is compulsory and atheists are regarded as being worse than Christians.

Hi ttbn,
"And, if you wish to deny the significance of Christianity to Western democracy, that's your business. Just be glad you don't live in one of the places where religion is compulsory and atheists are regarded as being worse than Christians."

I'm still considering things regards a more serious response.

On the one side, I really REALLY don't like the idea of forcing religion upon anyone.
Secondly I question whether we're a Christian nation or a secular country, and I'm not sure we can be both.
Thirdly I look at the prayer itself,'Thy Kingdom come'
- What beliefs are you forcing people to align with?

I'm pondering whether or not removing it would really be a good thing, whether my thoughts are just a knee-jerk reaction to personal bias or whether or not I'd want to be the type of person that would in fact support removing it, and whether on not I think the ACL is being a little to dramatic i.e. no-ones stopping them from going to church or believing whatever they do, and Parliament is supposed to be separation of church and state, not have a huge religious symbol erected on top.

AC

Nobody is forcing Christianity on anyone. However, lots of people in Australia seem eager to force Christianity OUT of everyone who believes in it.

Because of people like you, no: Australia is no longer a Christian country; it is post-Christian. But, that doesn't detract from the fact that our democracy and values are based on Christianity.

Remove the Christianity completely, and remove democracy.

But, Christianity is not going away after 2,000 years just because you think that you would be better without it.

Just a thought. What countries that haven't been Christian-based would you like to live in?

In the meantime, you need not bother yourself with Christianity, which so far has kept you safe, nor will anyone be “forcing” any beliefs at all on you. Hopefully, you won't ever have to live under a system that uses force; which, without Christian values, you might.

The last time the Labor Senate President put up the idea of dropping the Lord's Prayer, she was opposed by several LABOR Senators. It is not a political thing. It's a brain fart of a few cranks. What happens in Victoria, who knows? They are a weird mob of cranks in that God-forsaken state; both Labor and Liberal.

On your ‘not stopping them from going to church’ comment: Christians are giving churches the flick in droves, as most of the clerics and church bureaucrats have lurched sickeningly to the woke Left and joined the noisy mob. It's been a long time since I entered a church.

I'm not sure that I buy into blaming the "Left" for
this move in Victoria. The new Premier saying that
the tradition does not reflect a changing state and
that there should be a separation between Church and
State in a secular society.

Blaming the "Left?"

It needs to be pointed out that this is a decision that
will be decided by Parliament itself. The Premier is only
one Member of Parliament. This decision will need to be
part of a broader cross-party discussion/debate, and voted
on by all parties.

Luke Beck, constitutional expert at Monash University points
out that the Lord's Prayer itself has been scrapped before.
That this debate is as old as Federation itself.

According to Beck, in the mid 1800s several of Australia's
colonial governments stopped reciting prayers at the
beginning of each sitting embracing the separation of
Church and State.

"There was this idea that people should be free to do their
religious stuff, but it should not be forced upon them."

This shifted in the late 1890s as the six colonial
governments began planning Federation. By June 1901 both the
House of Representatives and the Senate included a daily
prayer.

For more than 100 years MPs have started each parliamentary
sitting day with the Lord's Prayer.

Tim Costello, a Baptist Minister and social justice advocate
says:

"It is appropriate to ask whether parliament needs to be more
inclusive. But I also think that secular people are a little
naive. They would be surprised to know that Muslims, Jews, and
Hindus are not offended by the Lord's Prayer. What offends them
is a secular Australia that does not have a belief in
transcendance, a belief in a higher power, something beyond us."

In the United States, one of the most diverse societies,
acknowledging God is regularly done. Be it in political
speeches, in courts, taking oaths of office. In Presidential
campaigns, and so on. It's something that is simply taken for
granted.

I'm sure that in Victoria - they will sort it out in parliament.
In a cross-party decision.

Just a bit of light-relief:

Seen in a store in Los Angeles:

"In God We Trust.
Everyone Else Pays Cash!"

So last night I dug into things a little...

Victorian Premier Allan to Cancel the Lord’s Prayer
http://www.acl.org.au/campaigns/cm-vic-prayerparliament-2401/

>>Make no mistake, these aren’t just about cancelling our national day or removing a prayer. It is an act of eliminating our history and Judeo-Christian heritage, including God, from our country and from one of the most important institutions in our society.
Read More

The Lord’s Prayer has a legitimate place in Parliament and has been part of parliamentary process since 1918. It is symbolic of the Christian ethos underpinning Western civilisation that has fostered free and prosperous societies, including our liberal democracy.

Responding to Premier Allan’s statement, Victorian State Director Jasmine Yuen said, “The Lord’s Prayer is more than merely a Christian prayer, it is an important tradition for all Australians. It is a reminder of the blessing we enjoy through our democratic system which is firmly rooted in our Christian heritage and Westminster system. As our community becomes more multicultural, the Lord’s Prayer grows in importance as it serves to unite us as Australian regardless of faith and ethnicity.” <<

Now, I just want to say that I'm starting to get fed up with 'Liberal Democracy' thing, and for pretty good and valid reasons too.

If you want to understand why then watch these:

Liberal Hegemony and War - Prof Glenn Diesen at FOR
http://youtu.be/vNJ6Fn-nGj4

WHEN IS THE CURRENT FINANCIAL SYSTEM GOING TO COLLAPSE? PROF. MICHAEL HUDSON/ LIVE
http://www.youtube.com/live/MC3VGdwwWPM

Watch the first one and you'll find out that things aren't at all what they are made out to be.
Watch the second one, and you'll find out the 'liberal west' has no qualms against sacrificing entire nations to maintain the rule and explotation of the elite, who are hell-bent on conquest of the entire planet in the name of 'liberal hegemony' and that the United States, will make war upon any nation just over the colour of the ink and paper called 'money' that people pay for things with.

Things are not as good as they are stacked up to be.
The West is ANYTHING BUT Christian.

"Just a thought. What countries that haven't been Christian-based would you like to live in?"
- It's probably for that exact reason I did not immediately jump on the 'Lets get rid of it' bandwagon.

I think if I was to support getting rid of it, I'd be more inclined to replace it with something,
i.e. something non religious but still inspires good ethical thinking and decision making, respect and kindness towards others etc.
Something wholesome...

I feel as though getting rid of it altogether might make us a rudderless ship.

Thy Kingdom Come
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/thy-kingdom-come

Tell me, in saying this prayer, are people signing up for Messianic beliefs?
I don't want to wage war on the whole world for the sake of armageddon and Jesus second coming.
I don't want no part of conquering the world to further religious beliefs.

I just want a world of respect decency and dignity, of mutual benefit between nations not one ruling over all i.e. 'exploitation' and 'wars for power and profit' for its own financial interests.

Tikkun Olam: Repairing the World
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/tikkun-olam-repairing-the-world/

Saying "The Lord's Prayer" in parliament didn't make us a better country or make it a better parliament.

So not saying it wouldn't make a worse country or make it a worse parliament.

Therefore I don't really care.

Its very true that we are a society based on Christian values and that we will become, or indeed are becoming, a worse less moral country as we stray from those Christian values. But mothing the Scriptures won't remedy that.

If they were said with true conviction and a true desire to live by the words, that would be a different matter. But these days, its mere ceremony with little meaning other than a quaint holdover from a better time. It is no more important to the functioning of the parliament than the Serjeant-at-Arms pouncing around with his/her oversized staff.

If we want to remain a Christian nation, then espouse Christian values, sincerely and with conviction. Insincerely mouthing a choose verse from the ancient texts isn't going to change a single mind nor a single action.

The Lord's Prayer introduces a measure of humility, attempting to remind the politicians that they are not omnipotent.

This is good!

Also, these 2-3 minutes dedicated for the Lord's Prayer every seating morning, are 2-3 minutes during which the politicians are not legislating against us.

This is good too!

mhaze,

I agree with what you say. Unfortunately,to mangle the 'it's the singer not the song' mot, some of the singers and not the sing give Christianity a bad name. I'm think of a recent PM and the Hillsong mob.

AC

I'm interested in Christianity, not other ‘religions’. And there is no replacement for Christianity that would teach us the things you mention. And you are correct: getting rid of it would make us a “rudderless” ship.

Christians are not going to “wage war” on anyone.

If you truly “just want a world of respect decency and dignity, of mutual benefit between nations not one ruling over all i.e. 'exploitation' and 'wars for power and profit' for its own financial interests”, you need to stick to Christianity.

After all We're no longer the Spanish Inquisition!

Another hard right nut job at work, dressed in military fatigues, this extremists attacked an Asian student with a knife yesterday at Sydney University. Believed to be radicalised by other extremists such as Andrew Tate on social media. Tate is well know for banging on about Judeo-Christian values, including the misogynistic belief that women are the property of men. Tate also promotes the superiority of the "White Christian Race".

ttbn,

Christianity is just one of many influences in a complex interplay of social phenomena responsible for the rise of Western culture and society. Historically and sociologically, there is precious little to suggest that its decline or disappearance would have a significant, adverse effect.

For example, Christianity has been both an enabler and a hindrance for progress. Throughout recent history, those who pushed for positive change would often find scripture to hold up to and persuade a change-averse, yet religious, population. Other times, Christianity has stubbornly refused to change despite the known benefits of change occurring, only to later concede defeat when any further refusal would spell the end of it.

The desire for a world characterised by respect, decency, dignity, and mutual benefit is a trait humans by and large evolved as a social species, not something our ancestors wandered aimlessly for millions of years waiting around for until the Christian religion was finally founded.

Throughout history, followers of many religions, including Christianity, have engaged in conflicts and wars and horrendous acts like slavery. The Crusades, various religious wars in Europe, and colonialism are just some examples of Christianity’s intertwining with political and economic interests.

No religion is immune to being used for purposes of power and profit. The Spanish Inquisition and the witch hunts in Europe are other examples where Christianity-inspired conflict and persecution.

I see much of the rantings of a Andrew Tate type nut job in the posts on this thread. These anonymous posters are a danger to society, radicalising impressionable minds on social media. It may simply be some harmless geriatric old fart at the keyboard, believing he is exercising his right to free speech, but the damage is being done. Those promoting these social media sites large and small, need to take responsibility.

Dear John,

First, welcome to this forum!

I agree in essence to what you wrote.

Just one correction:

«Throughout history, followers of many religions, including Christianity, have engaged in conflicts and wars...»

The unspoken assumption there is that Christianity is a religion.

Indeed, some people utilise Christianity as a part of their religion - God bless them.

Yet others utilise Christianity for so many other ends, including for creating social norms and yes, as you mentioned, some also utilise it for wars, slavery and crusades.

«No religion is immune to being used for purposes of power and profit»

Well Christianity and the like are not immune, but that is because they have many other aspects besides the religious and people are free to pick and choose whatever aspects they like and disregard the rest.

Hi Yuyutsu,

You often try to distance your religion from religion, I suspect that is because you don't associate yourself with the nastier aspects of religion, hate, intolerance etc. You feel you share no guilt for the past sins of others, murders in the name of god etc, and to a certain extent that is true.

BTW; What is Chistianity6? is there 5 other branches of the Christian faith?

‘Innocent’ Senator Payman now part of a ‘dangerous shift’ in Australian politics
http://youtu.be/jc64jIyvrGI

The Israel firsters have done the country a disservice in my opinion.
Prolonging the war and supporting the genocide has brought quite a few more Palestinians, and emboldened them that they new seek to form a political block.

Why couldn't you lot just act like human beings and oppose the genocide?
Now we have pissed off Muslims that will align together politically
- I guess it was bound to happen eventually anyway.

If you were upset about immigrants and Islam, now things have just gotten more complicated.
Jews and Muslims facing off in THIS COUNTRY?
- Send them all back and let them fight each other elsewhere.

"One Israeli air strike hit a house in the southern city of Khan Younis, killing Hassan Hamdan, head of the burns and plastic surgery department at Nasser Medical Complex, along with all his family members, the Gaza health ministry said."

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/8684412/israel-hits-gaza-strip-exchanges-fire-with-hezbollah/

What sort of people assassinate the head of the hospital burns and plastic surgery unit and his family? [Rolls eyes]

Hello... attention ignorant christians
What do you expect normal good moral non-christian people think about this stuff
Do you think we don't read it
Or do you think those people don't exist
Do you think you hold a monopoly on morality
That no-one notices your hypocricy

Well you don't hold a monopoly on morality
In fact when it comes to Israel you rendered yourselves neutered dogs on the topic
And we see you, even though you're blind to these watchful eyes

And I'm sorry if that sounds mean.
Right now your religion is a bit of a clownshow when it comes to defending the innocent and goodwill to all men...
and women and kids etc.
'burns and plastic surgery surgeons'

my god wtf is wrong with you people

Hi Yuyutsu,

Thank you for the welcome, and thank you for your reply.

It appears you and I may sometimes be referring to slightly different things when we use the word "religion". I'll bear this in mind in case I ever delve deeper into the topic with you.

Thanks again.

AC

You keep talking about 'religion'. What do you mean? There are different religions: the one this thread is about, Christianity; there is Judaism, Hinduism, Bhudism, Islam, and probably a few more sects. There is also climatism.

Apart from the first two, these religions a miles apart.

Like cultures, all religions are NOT equal.

"For example, Christianity has been both an enabler and a hindrance for progress. "

That is very true. But on balance, Christianity has been one of the catalysts that created western civilisation and the modern world. There's no doubt that the hierarchy of the church has fought tooth and nail to oppose almost all innovation that threatened their beliefs or power structures. But equally, there is no doubt that pockets of Christianity facilitated innovation and created the modern world.

Religions in other parts of the planets were much more successful than Christianity at suppressing innovation in their societies and suppressing human progress.

It is not in the least by chance that things like the industrial revolution, the Enlightenment, human rights, the world-wide movement against slavery, democracy and the liberation of women, all started in any were promoted by Christian societies. All other societies from India to Japan and China as well as the stone-age societies of the North America and Australia, were only bought into the modern world following exposure to Christian society.

The passing of the Christian religion as a predominant factor in our society might not mean it all unravels. After all Christianity was just one leg of the stool that supported western civilisation and the others might yet survive. But what would be end would the passing of Christian values. That is, it is possible to conceive of a Christian society that doesn't contain Christian religion but its impossible to conceive of a free and progressive western society that abandons the Christian values that made it the exemplar to the world that it became.

Christians by and large spent the last 9 months trying do defend a genocide, that's what I mean.
Or at the every least internally conflicted whilst trying to turn a blind eye to it.
It's because a flaw in Christian minds is that they can only see the world through Jewish coloured glasses.
So you all just stand there like a deer in the middle of the road.
Stunned by headlights, not moving and not saying squat.

Show me the Christian in Christian.
Show me compassion for the 9 year old girl I saw that had taken a sniper rifle bullet to the head and her brains and bloods had sprayed and squirted all over the wall.

When it comes to standing against the wrongs Israel does that
The type of things Jesus spoke againt, you lot are silent.
You balls are in a jar, in Jewish custody.
And your brains arent wired to speak up, when they do wrong.

Not one of you ever showed even the slightest level of humanity towards those Palestinians who were slaughtered.
But as for the 1200 Israelis, Christ, you'd think someone raped and murdered your own mums.

The hypocricy is quite clear.
But that doesn't ever register in your minds.
Christians seem to be talking out of both sides of their mouths
Don't talk about Christian values when you're running around tying to defend murderers

That's what I mean.
I hear Ben G'vir doesn't want to feed the Palestinians or release them from prison
Why would he, when he's been doing a good job of starving the other 7 million.
He wants to shoot them all in the head, stated publicly.

But somehow the narrative is 'cry, cry, cry'
Isreal must get it's hostages back
All the while Israel keeps some 7000 hostages
Held indefinitely without charge.

The whole thing takes lunacy to new levels.

You can keep your Lord's Prayer for all I care.
Just tell me when exactly are you lot going to start defending the values you claim are so paramount?

CHRISTIANS UNITED FOR ISRAEL
http://cufi.org/

I jokingly refer to the above organisation
'Christians United for Genocide'.

Christians moral compasses are all over the place.
I make fun of Christians, doesn't it bother them how stupid they look?
Thanks for getting the Muslims all riled up too btw, really helped the 'unity' in our country.

I can't see what part Christianity played in the development of Modernism/Humanism. If it had been left to the Christian religion the world would most likely still be trapped in the Dark Ages. The religious with their superstition and intolerance tended to be a hindrance to advancement as the Age Of Enlightenment with its disciples of free thinkers dawned. The claim that it was through the efforts of Christianity the western world, has became a better place is untrue, the hierarchy of Christianity has always been hostile towards Enlightenment ideas.

I think no-one has done more to harm the Christian cause over the last 9 months than the Christians themselves.

You found yourselves at a crossroads:
You had to make a choice.

You had to decide between the modern state of Israel established in 1948.

'God's Chosen People'
- A place filled with many hostile, hateful sinful people determined to restore 'the promised land' through ethnic cleansing and genocide.

- And Jesus's teachings.

You stood there like idiots not knowing what to do and in the end
You chose Israel, not Christ's teachings.

The choice was simple.

Jesus or the Devil.
You chose the devil.

Your stupid religion may have retained some relevance, if only you'd have stood up for the downtrodden and the innocent, now it has none.

If Christians find themselves in a position where they set aside Jesus's teachings, then their religion is already dead.
- Or they're gearing up mentally for the next crusade.

Sorry if I'm being harsh.

Now for a bit of balance.

We have Christian songs that still inspire us today -
from "Silent Night," "Amazing Grace," "Ave Maria,"
to name just a few. We have works of art like -
Leonardo Da Vinci's "The Last Supper," and
Michaelangelo's - "Sistine Chapel," We have Christian
composers like Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven - who changed
the sound of history.

We have architecture from ancient to modern that whether
we admit it or not - still impacts on us. The famous
churches and basillicas.

Today, there are hospitals - Baptist, Presbyterian, Catholic
who help with our health.

The Bible is the best-selling book of all time.

And the list goes on.

As my father used to tell me - (he was raised by Jesuits) -
don't blame the religion - but blame the way some use it
to their advantage. It's not religion that's at fault by
the way some practice it.

We all know the difference between right and wrong.

And I can still hear the words ingrained into my mind
from Sister Mary Virgilius - when I do something wrong-
I think - "God'll Get Me For It!" Somethings last a
lifetime - especially if you were raised Catholic.

Hi Foxy,

Did you have a Sr Mary as well, my Sr Mary, an old Irish nun, told me in 3rd class, when I asked about Hell, she said it was place where all the Pagans (I thought that was the black people of Africa) and the Protestants, particularly the C of E, went to burn for what they had done to the poor Irish, that's the Protestants not the Pagans burning, not sure why the Pagans had to burn as well, maybe to make them a bit more blacker. Also according to Sr Mary naughty little boys burn in hell for sure and certain, a busy place, maybe Dud Dutton can build a power station down there, so I should listen to the Holy Father in Rome, and read my Catechism! Not sure what I should expect to hear from the Holy Father, and the Catechism was in Latin. I was stuffed on both counts!

Hi Paul,

I used to love the Mass in Latin. I was very much
a traditionalist back then. To a certain extent,
in many ways, I still am, I guess. I can still be
brought to tears by beautiful hymns, as well as
Church and Cathedral interiors - that are capable of
making you feel ever so small.

Science can explain a great deal, but you have to
admit that there are things that science cannot explain,
and for that reason I think that religion will always
be here to stay.

AC, who understands Christianity in the same way my budgie understands time dilation, tells Christians they aren't doing Christianity right.

Then apologises "Sorry if I'm being harsh."

It'd only be harsh if you made any sense. Now its just funny.

Paul, putting hands over both eyes, declares "I can't see what part Christianity played in the development of Modernism/Humanism. "

People like this, if they are going to be the least bit convincing, would need to explain why it was that the Reformation, the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, the end of slavery and modern human-rights all happened first (and sometimes only) in Christian countries. They simply don't understand how the Christian philosophy enabled all of these things while every other religion on the planet suppressed any advances.

For example, printing was invented in China and imported to Europe. But in China it was completely and tightly controlled by the central government such that only approved texts could be distributed. In Europe, it was freely used by all to print both the Bible in local languages and incendiary things like Martin Luther's 'Ninety-five Theses'. So new ideas and new advances spread quickly and easily through Europe but never saw the light of day elsewhere.

Bernard Lewis (among other books...'What Went Wrong?: The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East') explained the essential difference between Christianity and Islam was that Christianity allowed for the search for the mind of God via science, while Islam forbade it. Newton thought he could better understand his God by understanding the world He created. Muslim science held that the world was the way it is because Allah willed it and if he willed it to change tomorrow then it would, and therefore there was little point in studying nature. Christian societies therefore advanced and Islamic societies stagnated (and still stagnate).

Christianity was and is an integral part of the creation of the modern world and failing to understand that is simply down to an abysmal lack of historic knowledge and a fervent wish to deny that which you don't want to be true.

The ignorance of Christianity and its gift to humanity will only get worse.

All school children used to get religious instruction irrespective of their home situation. It hurt none of them, but it was knowledge they wouldn't have had otherwise. They weren't totally ignorant, as people are now.

"All school children used to get religious instruction irrespective of their home situation. It hurt none of them"

YES, The great work of Father Fuuckemup, and Brother Boyplugger in Religious schools...."it hurt none of them" Wow!

Dear Paul,

You asked a great question - "What is Christianity".

Well, I am afraid there is no solid and agreed answer, just like there is no solid agreed answer about the essence of practically anything that has parts (and what doesn't?).

Take a watch, just for example: is your wrist-band part of the watch, or only an accessory? After all, doesn't it show the time even if you take off, or replace, the band?

Just like clouds that split and join up in the sky - when can you say that it is still the same cloud? At what point exactly can you say that a cloud turned into two clouds, or two clouds into one?

Modern research shows that Islam started off as a Christian sect, so is Islam today still part of Christianity?

The best I can say, and surely one could find fault with my definition attempt too, is that Christianity is an identity-group, going back some 2000 years to identify with the great saint, Jesus of Nazareth.

Actually following Jesus (as some Christians claim they do) is a different matter altogether and much more difficult than paying a lip-service, for we are not saints: a dog can follow his master, but can it drive his car?

«You often try to distance your religion from religion»

From culture, social issues and pretence, including by cultures that pretend to be religious.

«I suspect that is because you don't associate yourself with the nastier aspects of religion, hate, intolerance etc.»

Religion has no nasty aspects, but cultures do, the Christian culture included. How could coming closer to God, in which we are all united, possibly be nasty?

«You feel you share no guilt for the past sins of others, murders in the name of god etc»

No I don't, neither did Jesus - do you?

ttbn,

What is Christianity6, how many versions do you think there are?

Hi Yuyutsu,

A lot of food for thought there, not sure where to begin. The watch analogy, is it still a watch if you remove the wrist-band, yes it is. Can I ask is it still a watch if you take a hammer and smash it so it can no longer tell you the time, yes it is. Christianity is like that, Christ was a humble man with a simple message. In a nut shell, the message is "love thy neighbour as thyself", maybe the early adherents took that message to heart and put it into practice, that was their religion, and as followers of Christ they were Christians. However somewhere along the way that simply message got corrupted with all sorts of exceptions and additions added, until the simple message become unrecognisable as it is today, that to is religion.

"AC, who understands Christianity in the same way my budgie understands time dilation, tells Christians they aren't doing Christianity right."

Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying.

It may be a part of the Jewish religion to kill the Amalekites.
Kill every last man, woman, child, oxen, dog and rat.
But that ain't part of the Christian religion.
Not sure how Moses and the 10 commandments fits in there.
Maybe that came after...

Christianity sets itself apart from all that rot, with Jesus

Thou shalt not kill, Love your enemy.

You dumb schmucks threw Christ's teachings straight into the bin.
Suddenly your willing to turn a blind eye to the killings
Suddenly your filled with hate for Israels enemies

I SAT HERE AND WATCHED IT RIGHT IN THIS FORUM
- And I know it's going on everywhere else as well.

I wonder if on your Judgement Day, God will call you 'Dumb Schucks' himself?

You put 'God's Chosen People' the Jews, not Christians
Higher up on the pecking order than Christ teachings.

Jesus is the light, the truth and the way.
Not supporting some screwed up nation of sinners hell bent on taking the holy land back by hook or by crook.

There was a covenant you know.
God didn't give the land to them unconditionally.
They broke that covenant when they became an oppressive people.

You want to know the real truth.
There really should be a one state solution.
It should be a place where Jews, Christians and Muslims can all live together in peace, not conflict.

But it will probably never happen and will probably always be stained in the blood of innocents.
For that reason it really is the one single place of land on the planet that we should drop a dirty nuclear bomb on, so that no-one lives there, no one fights over it, and the land is no longer forever drenched in the blood of innocents for eternity.

Hell knows, you Christians really do 'need not be lead into temptation'

Next minute, you're supporting genocide.

"What is Christianity".

John 3:16

" For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The whole of the Gospel is summarised in John 3:16.
Everything else is merely a how-to guide or an examination of the consequences of believing in him, or evidence, such as it is, that Christ was indeed his "one and only Son".

Golden Rule
http://livingpeaceinternational.org/en/the-project/regola-d-oro-2.html

>>A mosaic located at the entrance of the United Nations Secretariat Building in New York depicts people of different nationalities, religions, and cultures with the words: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”, the so called Golden Rule, inscribed on its surface.

But what exactly is the Golden Rule? It is a unique law because “it expresses a formidable intuition that is accessible to human knowledge and conscience”, in that is part of all the main religions and schools of thought of the world. As a consequence it can also be described as the core of universal ethical codes. According to recent studies, it was mentioned as early as 3,000 BC in the vedic Indian tradition: “Don't do unto others what you don't want done unto you; wish for others what you wish for yourself”.

Among the oldest golden rule quotes we can find those from the philosopher Confucius, who lived in China between the sixth and fifth century BC.

As for Judaism, we can read the Golden Rule for the first time in the Book of Tobias, dated 200 BC, but Jesus Christ has turned it into a positive sentence: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”.

During the Middle Ages, the rule was included in the Rule of Saint Benedict and in the Regola non bollata of Saint Francis of Assisi.<<

- Looks like Jesus himself wasn't the first to aspire to good morals, ethics and general decency?

The Golden Rule for all intents and
purposes is the same in all cultures - it simply asks
that we put ourselves in a position of the poorest of
the poor, the weakest of the weak, the sickest of the
sick, and do unto others as we would want done unto us.

The Golden Rule is certainly not only Christian or was
invented by Christianity. Yet, this is not to diminish
its central role in the Christian value system.

AC,

It was your “Amalekites” who set upon and harassed the Jews with the aim of wiping them out as Moses was leading them from persecution.

You have switched from having an opinion to an ignorant rant against Christianity. You have made your feelings known; now you are just making a fool of yourself, unnecessarily.

BTW, Jews are not Christians: they are, duh, Jews.

We have to accept that there is enough sufficient
historical evidence (records) of a person by the
name of Jesus who lived and preached thousands of
years ago. A person who was the source of a major
politico-religious divide.

Initially, it was between Jews and those other Jews
who, following Jesus, became Christians after Paul's
apocalyptic conversion on the road to Damascus.

While many Australians are now of a post-Christian mindset, they might have to set their addled minds to the prospect of an Islamic Australia. Don't laugh.

Muslim Senator gets the hump because she stepped outside Labor rules and embarked on a foreign matter well outside her duty to Australia.

The Muslim community gets the hump, and publicly indicates their real reason for being in Australia: to spread Islam globally.

Labor politicians are already sh.t scared of Muslim minorities in their electorates. They need the dreadful Greens and any undesirables they can round up to stay in office. The Coalition? Not a lot more trustworthy than Labor; and they are just as guilty of bringing Islam into our country.

>>It was your “Amalekites” who set upon and harassed the Jews with the aim of wiping them out as Moses was leading them from persecution.<<

My Amalekites? Lol
Firstly, those people died thousands of years ago.
And secondly, I'm not even religious.
Thirdly it was just as wrong to kill innocent people back then as it is to kill innocent people today.

"You have switched from having an opinion to an ignorant rant against Christianity."
- I think it all forms part of my wider opinion on the topic.

"You have made your feelings known; now you are just making a fool of yourself, unnecessarily."
- Maybe, but nowhere near the level of foolishness Christians have shown by setting Christ's teachings aside to give silent consent to the murder of hundred thousand plus innocents by 'God's Chosen People'

Christians are supposed to stand up for the innocent, the downtrodden and destitute
That's probably what Jesus would've done.
And he's the reason for your whole religion.

A real Christian asks themselves 'What would Jesus do'
- I'm pretty Jesus wouldn't be bombing refugee camps with missiles and bombs marked 'Made in USA'
And he wouldn't be trying to starve and deprive 7 million people of water.
He would give them food, water, shelter, kindness and tend to their wounds
He certainly wouldn't be stationed at the Israeli Ministry of Defense screaming 'Kill them all!' like those you so blindly defend.

If you lose sight of all this ttbn, then I don't even know what good your religion even represents.

How are we ever going to solve the threats to all
of humanity and the planet, by climate change, over
population, and other serious problems, if we can't leave
our fellow humans to practice safely their own religion?

We need to recognize that the vast majority of modern
mainstream Christians, Jews, Muslims, and others, seek a
better life on earth, rather than seeking it in heaven.

Even if they believe in heaven, they seek a happy life on
earth. Modern people with normal family and social
relationships, and an at least partially rational view of
how the world works are not waiting for Armageddon, or a
future coming of a saviour.

Nor are they waiting for anything else that exercises
the theological minds of fundamentalists. We need to keep
in mind that the religiously minded modern person is not
a "card carrying" fundamentalist. They are a tiny minority.

Of whatever faith, a psychologist would be likely to declare
them of unsound mind.

AC,

who understands Christianity in the same way my budgie understands time dilation, tells Christians they aren't doing Christianity right.

If you don't understand a religion, you can't critique it. Or your can, but you can't critique it without making a fool of yourself. Exhibit A.... AC.

"Thou shalt not kill, Love your enemy." That came from the mythical Moses, not Jesus you dumb schmuck.

Supporting Israel isn't anti-Christian. Israel and the Jews are a nation under threat of destruction but a fanatical, nihilistic group of murderers. Israel and the Jews are exactly the type of people Christians, indeed all right-minded people, should be defending.

AC, failing to understand Christianity in the slightest, thinks Christians should support a group who don't love their enemy but love raping and murdering their enemy. Christianity couldn't possibly support anyone who perpetrated 7 October or anyone who supports what happened on 7 October.

AC is so blinded by his antisemitism that he will neither understand nor consider that

As for the 29 year old first-term Labor Senator from WA -
Fatima Payman?

Australia's first hijab-wearing Senator told reporters that
her family did not flee Afghanistan for her to remain silent
in the face of atrocity.

She was indefinitely suspended from the Labor caucus for
threatening to again cross the floor. On Monday, she
complained that the party had forced her into "exile."

As a result she ended up resigning from the Labor Party.
She gave the explanation :

"Witnessing our government's indifference to the greatest
injustice of our times makes me question the direction the
party is taking."

As a result she's received death threats and emails that were
very confronting, especially when it involved her family.

It's unfortunate that this has come to pass. Political parties
in Australia expect their members to abide by the rules on
issues where the party has taken a certain stance. I recall
Penny Wong having to go with the party against same-sex
marriage initially. The party later changed its stance.
However, Wong complied with the initial stance.

Senator Payman was not able to do that regarding the Palestinian
issue. To her it was more important than playing by party rules.

She explained that the topic of Palestinians is a matter that
has impacted anyone with a conscience. She said that it's
not a matter of Jews versus Muslims. It's a matter about
humanity, about freedom, about equality and that there are
people on both sides who want to see this conflict come to an
end. That there are universal principles that all of us
stand for.

She also asked why would anyone assume that just because she's
a Muslim woman she can only care about Muslim issues?
She said that this issue impacts us all and that she intended
to represent her electorate fairly on all issues - not just
select Muslim ones - as an Independent Senator.

I wish her well.

AC

It's always the people who run down Christianity, who are not Christians, who are always telling actual Christians how they should behave. Worse, they expect to be taken seriously.

Actual Christians?

Do all churches teach the Christianity of Christ?

The pure religion of Jesus Christ seems to be totally
neglected by many religious leaders. There are scores
of different ideologies and teachings that are now
coming to the fore.

It's high time that someone pointed out what "true"
Christianity is all about.

The most bloody wars in all human history have been waged
primarily in Europe, the very heart of Western "Christian"
civilization. We've had the "Holy Wars", the " Crusades".
What about "Love your enemies"?

The name of Christ is often misused.

"AC, failing to understand Christianity in the slightest"
- Lol.

Maybe not, but I've had plenty to deal with people who claim to be Christians
By and large, many are horrible hypocrites.
They think they're shite don't stink BUT IT DOES
And they're certainly no better than any other decent non-Christians.
They're a little weird, and the more devout, the more weird.
Till you get to the extremes, people going to bible study twice a week, tellingbme The Simpsons are 'work of the devil' blubbering in tongues and screaming fire and brimstone from the pulpit.
At it's core it's more like a crazy cult.

Pffft.
I was never all that impressed by it all honestly.

Dear Paul,

«The watch analogy, is it still a watch if you remove the wrist-band, yes it is. Can I ask is it still a watch if you take a hammer and smash it so it can no longer tell you the time, yes it is.»

Fair enough, now what if the smashed mechanism is separated from the glass-case that shows the hours, minutes and seconds, and taken down the road to the watchmaker for repair - is the watch now at home or at the watchmaker?

«However somewhere along the way that simply message got corrupted with all sorts of exceptions and additions added, until the simple message bcome unrecognisable as it is today, that to is religion.»

In old Russia, they used to drink their tea in sugar-cups: more sugar than tea, but after the revolution there was shortage of sugar, so instead they poured the tea in porcelain cups and added 2-3 sugar cubes to it, then just 1 cube, then when there were not enough cubes for the whole family, they hanged a sugar-cube above the table, so everyone would watch it as they drank their tea.

Later on they could not obtain even a single cube of sugar, so they just looked at the string above the table as they drank their tea and imagined a sugar-cube to be there. Eventually, the grandchildren had no clue why this sacred family tradition of hanging a string above the dining-table.

Yet they still have their tea with sugar, or do they?

"The most bloody wars in all human history have been waged primarily in Europe"

Not even close to true:

Three Kingdoms war in China... 200AD 55 million dead
Taiping rebellion in China.... 1850 30 million
Mongol invasions in Asia... 13th century 40 million
The Qing wars - China... 17th century 30 million
Sino-Japanese War - China - 1930s 25 million
An Lushan Rebellion - China 760AD 40 million

Yes there were some bloody wars in Europe but they had nothing on the way the various Asian wars massacred great swathes of humanity. Additionally note that the massacres from the deep past killed vastly greater percentages of people eg its estimated that Genghis Khan was responsible for the death of 10% of humanity at the time.

Don't you just hate it when the facts don't align with what you so want to be true.

___________________________________________________________________

AC wrote (or sputtered) "Till you get to the extremes, people going to bible study twice a week, tellingbme The Simpsons are 'work of the devil' blubbering in tongues and screaming fire and brimstone from the pulpit."

You have a very jaundiced view of what Christians are and do. Jaundiced, moronic, monumentally uninformed ie standard AC

"Supporting Israel isn't anti-Christian. Israel and the Jews are a nation under threat of destruction but a fanatical, nihilistic group of murderers. Israel and the Jews are exactly the type of people Christians, indeed all right-minded people, should be defending."

The more I think about it, the more I think all religious people are fanatics...

This is what you are defending.
http://www.instagram.com/combconstruction/reel/C80YTMpyr-9/
"The Israeli Minister of National Security Itamar Ben Gvir: The Palestinian prisoners must be killed by shooting them in the head, and until passing this law, we will give them little to live on."

By this standard:
I could argue the Palestinians should just shoot all the Jewish hostages in the head, save feeding them right?
Why not if it's good enough for Israel to have a 'Kill them all' policy.
And don't forget that this guy was the one who had any other Palestinian who celebrated the release of Palestinians locked up and made prisoners again

I could say 'Kill them all' like the ones you defend you good decent christians, execpt I don't support the harm of innocents so my hands are tied.

Israel is a terrorist nation, and to be quite honest I think we should get rid of the Lords Prayer after all, there's no point in it.
For 100 claimed Christians, you'd be lucky to find one that actually is one.
The rest of you are just supporting genocidal lunatics drunk on ethic cleasing for land theft.

Stuff your stupid religions.

"Yet they still have their tea with sugar, or do they?"

Yes they do. Indeed when you visit Russia its almost impossible to get a cuppa which hasn't been pre-sweetened beyond what we'd consider drinkable. And when you explain that you want unsweetened tea and explain how to make it, they look at you like you're from another dimension.

Same with coffee, and, in some places, the same with milk.

Consequently I used to drink a lot of mineral water in Russia ( the best I've ever tasted) and an unreasonable amount of vodka. When I became cluey-er and learnt how to get things past border control, I used to carry a personal supply of tea bags and order a pot of hot water.

My Russian Gran preferred her tea with raspberry jam.
Or when she had a cold - with honey.

AC,

You're becoming increasingly deranged so its difficult to have anything like a reasoned discussion on this but...

Just because people support Israel in general and the need for Israel to eliminate Hamas for their and the good of the planet in particular, doesn't mean they support every word uttered by every person in Israel. (that's your derangement kicking in).

You support Hamas. Hamas has said that, given the chance, they will perform more and more 7 Octobers (rape and murder) until no Jews remain in the Levant. Clearly, by your deranged standard, you must support that

Here is a link to the European wars of religion, which was
the topic being discussed earlier regarding Christianity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion#:

Yep, there were lots of wars in Europe.

But "[t]he most bloody wars in all human history..."??

Not even close. Glad you caught up....or caught on.

I can now see you're trying to change the goalposts to make it just about religious wars, but again that fails. Check the list I wrote above...many of them were also religious wars.

As we see with people like AC, most of those who see Christianity or religion in general as being the root of all evil do so from a perspective of utter historic ignorance.

mhaze,

Using one or more as an example, could I ask to what degree it was, in your view, that Christianity was integral to the movements and revolutions you’ve listed in this comments section, and how exactly you believe it facilitated the changes?

For context, I have asked this question of others who held a similar view, but selective interpretations and post hoc rationalisations were all I’d ever get. Oversimplifications were rife, too, and other factors likely contributing to the changes never seemed to be controlled for.

The Muslim Senator affair has raised the spectre of religious-based political parties.

Heaven forbid!

But, there is no stopping politicians from making decisions based on their religious beliefs.

The Muslim Senator has demonstrated this. Christian politicians have undoubtedly done the same thing, without making a fuss about it.

Our economy is being wrecked by the religion of climate change.

Religion cannot be ignored. Australians have to decide whether they want Christianity or Islam. Neither is not an option. People of faith, including politicians, are not going to drop their personal beliefs because atheists think they should.

We have already allowed ourselves to be dominated by the climate religionists.

"You're becoming increasingly deranged so its difficult to have anything like a reasoned discussion on this but..."

This coming from 'Christians 4 genocide'?
Gimme a break...

I'm surprised you Christians don't all go on a mission to Palestine.
Maybe you can find some Palestinian kids and all take turns clubbing them to death like baby harp seals.
Good little Christian soldiers

"Just because people support Israel in general and the need for Israel to eliminate Hamas"
Hamas isn't going to be defeated you fool.
Hamas is an ideology, an idea of 'Resistance'
I told you this on October 8, I told you it was a recruitment drive.
Israel has murdered 100,000 plus people for nothing.

Who do you think PLO stood for?
Palestinian LIBERATION Organisation.

Israel can murder all 7+ million of the Palestinians.
And when you get down to that last Palestinian man and woman remaining:
- They will continue to resist and want to be liberated from this terrorist state.

October 7 was a prison revolt.
Yes you can expect more of them, it's inevitable.

Why don't you go attack Hezbollah?

"We have already allowed ourselves to be dominated by the climate religionists."
- No, it's not the hippy tree huggers, it's the elites dictating how they think you should live.
After all, the peasants exist as collective cash-cows to serve them.
We won't go into 'religions and nationalities' here.

BlackRock’s Fink Calls For Energy Pragmatism, Omits ESG From Annual Letter
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmcgowan/2024/03/27/blackrocks-fink-calls-for-energy-pragmatism-omits-esg-from-annual-letter/

Conservative Outrage Over ESG And DEI Fueled By 2017 BlackRock CEO Video
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmcgowan/2023/06/05/conservative-outrage-over-esg-and-dei-fueled-by-2017-blackrock-ceo-video/?sh=7464e8e783da

Liberalism is a top down thing, you serve the elites in the hope they throw you some crumbs.

"Christian politicians have undoubtedly done the same thing, without making a fuss about it." Well, they have made a fuss of it, here's examples;

United Christian Party, Australian Family Movement, Christian Democratic Party, One Australia Movement, Family First Party, Australian Christians Party. And who can forget the DLP with its Catholic connection.

Many evangelicals see Israel-Hamas war as part of a prophecy
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/commentary/2023/11/03/world/evangelicals-israel-hamas-war/
'The belief in the Second Coming of Christ is being linked by some to the unfolding Middle East bloodshed'

"For most Americans, events in Israel elicit a familiar set of emotions: sadness at the loss of life, particularly innocent civilians; anger, even fury, at one side or another; and fear that the conflict may ultimately engulf the larger region. It’s hard to find a silver lining on the cloud that now hangs over the Middle East.

Unless, of course, you believe that bloodshed in Israel will pave the way for the Second Coming of Christ. Secular voters may find it baffling, but it’s a worldview of a significant number of evangelical Christians and, by extension, a critical portion of the Republican Party."
- Politicians in the US on both sides are bought and paid for by the Israel Lobby.
It's not democracy, it's more like 'rule by the highest bidder'.
Politicians are loyal to their donors not their constituents.

So...
"Let's celebrate the slaughter of innocent Palestinians
- It's God's will, thy kingdom Come, praise Jesus!"

Christians sell themselves as good wholesome people
Pull back the covers and the pictures not so rosy.

I've always liked to expose the stupidity the hypocrisy and the incompetence.
I'm still playing by the same rules I always have.
- And I told you 'other people were watching'.

I conclude by repeating

No-one has done more to harm the Christian cause over the last 9 months than the Christians themselves.

AC

I presume that you are reacting to mhaze's reference to your deranged attitude to Christianity.

I'm sorry to say that your latest effort has proved him right.

. Christians 4 genocide
. Clubbing Palestinian children to death
. Israel can murder all 7+ million of the Palestinians.
. October 7 was a prison

You are bonkers, sport. You need help.

Dear Critic,

«For that reason it really is the one single place of land on the planet that we should drop a dirty nuclear bomb on, so that no-one lives there, no one fights over it, and the land is no longer forever drenched in the blood of innocents for eternity.»

So in order for the land to no longer be drenched in the blood of innocents, you would like to kill my family there (most of whom support a Palestinian state and hate Netanyahu and his Nazi gang even more than they hate Sinwar), including the 4-year old twins, born into COVID and now into war.

- How very Christian of you...

John Daysh, (re your Friday post).

It’s not a case of saying that Christianity was responsible for this or that advance made by western civilisation but more a case of Christianity being integral in creating and supporting a society where the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution could occur and flourish.

In the book I mentioned earlier, Lewis says that any outsider looking at the world in the mid-15th century would have assumed that the next great world advances would come from China or the Islamic world. Europe was a moribund backwater cut off from the rest of civilisation by the fall of Constantinople. Yet two centuries later Europe was flourishing in thought, learning and intellectual and material breakthroughs, and leaving the rest of the world in its wake. What allowed that to happen?

Remember that Christianity isn't really a middle-eastern religion. The Israel of Jesus had already been part of the Hellenistic world for 3 centuries before Christ was born. Christianity is an amalgam of mystic Judaism and long-established Greek (western) thought.

The key difference between Christianity and the other great world religions (particularly Islam) is its individualism. Whereas a Mohammadian can only approach Allah via his Iman, Christ specifically encourages his followers to approach their God individually without the need for a priestly interpreter. ("For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” Matthew 18:20). To be sure, the Catholic Church worked assiduously to try to circumvent this and insert themselves between God and Man, but the option was always there for the Christian. And when the opportunity arose to break from the Church, many leapt at it.

Gutenberg was important here in that it allowed the dissemination of information and new ideas. The Church opposed this, but the religion allowed it and then encouraged it. (Note I always draw a distinction between the Church and the religion in the case of Christianity. Not so other religions.)

/cont

/cont

Christianity allowed and encouraged the new ideas. Martin Luther was always only possible in a Christian society. Newton also. Galileo was opposed by the Church but nonetheless won the battle of ideas. Again, that could only happen in a Christian society or if you like, only DID happen in a Christian society.

Christianity (not the Church) allowed for individual thought. It encouraged the search for God through the search of nature and the natural world. It encouraged learning from the past and indeed the veneration of the non-Christian past, again, uniquely. Pure learning (eg Newton) led to more practical learning (eg the spinning jenny, the steam piston etc).

The Reformation, the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, human rights. Even up to the present time. The world wide web we use today is a western invention and could only happen in the west. Just like the printing press was suppressed everywhere other than Europe, so the WWW, had it been invented outside the west, would have become an instrument of government control, not individual liberty.

Those who oppose the notion of Christianity being an integral part of the western miracle, need to explain why all the things that make the modern world what it occurred or started in Christian societies. Why was slavery outlawed by only Christian societies? Why were human rights invented and pushed by Christian societies? Women’s rights, democracy, individual freedom, freedom of the press, etc etc

If Christianity didn’t play a part, why did they all originate only in Christian societies? Over to you.

"If Christianity didn’t play a part, why did they all originate only in Christian societies? Over to you."

You have stonkered him there, mhaze.

JD appears to be one of the blow-ins who lives in a bubble, and turns up thinking, "I'll put these hicks in their place".

The last one was someone calling himself "Random". He had a good old sneer in a handful of posts - then abruptly disappeared when he didn't get the homage he though was his due.

Prof. Tor Hundloe writes in his book -
"From Buddha to Bono," :

"There was the Muslim leadership who supported scholarship,
before Muslim science and philosophy disappeared, leaving
21st century fundamentalist Muslims believing seventh
century customs."

"The historian of Arab society, Mansfield, in his history of
the Arab world informs us that prior to the religious
ascendancy in the Arab countries:"

"Like the Greeks and Romans after them, an economic surplus
was put to good use in the Muslim centres of learning."

However -

"Just as the West commenced its slow but sure climb out of
the Dark Ages, the Muslim world came under the strict control
of leaders incapable of separating tribal mores from government."

"What we now know as Sharia (Islamic) Law became State Law, and
has remained so in the remaining tribal areas of Muslim lands."

"Today, we may have concerns with the fundamentalist fringe of
Islam, just as we do with the fundamentalist fringe of
Christianity and Hinduism - but we should not forget the role
of Muslim Scholars of 1000 or so years ago."

"These people discovered, just as some of their Christian
counterparts did, that scholarship was possible in a religious
environment."

"What the religious scholars had going for them was that they
were literate, and they lived off society's economic surplus."

"In any case, there was a clash of civilizations in the early
21st century. The two cultures were set to diverse dramatically,
with one pursuing progress based on Greek philosophy,
science, and politics, the other regressed from the high
point of scholarship, art, and invention, and stagnated in a
mire of Old Testament beliefs and AD 700 desert culture."

Prof. Hundloe goes on to write about the Crusades, and then the
problems we are re-playing today at a more dangerous level
than in the 12th century warfare of the Crusades. He asks:

"What is the point of saving humanity and the planet from a
possible environmental disaster if we keep killing each other
in the name of different prophets of the same God?"

Hi Yuyutsu,

"So in order for the land to no longer be drenched in the blood of innocents, you would like to kill my family there (most of whom support a Palestinian state and hate Netanyahu and his Nazi gang even more than they hate Sinwar), including the 4-year old twins, born into COVID and now into war.

- How very Christian of you..."

No of course not, why would you automatically assume that.
Hypothetically speaking, I would make it well known in advance to both sides to get the hell out and make sure that everyone has a chance to.
Obviously it would never happen anyway.

I see both sides as two children.
'Stop fighting over things or I will take it off you both and neither will have anything'.

I'm tired of the endless slaughter.
If dropping a dirty bomb on the place so it becomes a radioactive wastelend that no-one will ever fight over again, that seems somewhat reasonable to me, if it stops the innocent being killed.

I don't know your family, I know you help provide food for IDF, but I don't hold it against you, I know you have an interest in your family's safety, and for you that means Israel must prevail.
I understand and accept your reasons.

I honestly don't want any harm to come to your family Yuyutsu,
But I honestly don't want harm to come to anyone else's family either
And there's been a lot of that, it seems the cycle of violence will never end.

I don't want any innocent people to be killed.
I'm not even keen on killing the guilty ones, lock 'em up and throw away the key if necessary.
I just want all people to be able to live in peace and dignity.

Dear Critic,

«I'm tired of the endless slaughter.»

You would be tired of watching youtube, then posting at length here - that I understand, but I do assume (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you and your loved ones have not participated in any slaughter lately, neither as offenders nor as offended.

«I see both sides as two children.
'Stop fighting over things or I will take it off you both and neither will have anything'.»

The modern world is not a place for children, certainly not the cities, thus it's all too common for stressed adults to get tired, lose patience and then punish children indiscriminately without even bothering to hear them.

Your weary eyes see only two children, yet there are many more that you are not seeing, ones like my family who could not care less about national territories, Judaism or Islam, who only want to live peacefully and raise their children and grandchildren on their own plot of land, not caring whether their next-door neighbour be a Jew, a Muslim or whatever.

Yet you suggest that they too should be left with nothing, stripped of all property. OK then, not killed, just "neither will have anything".

«I honestly don't want any harm to come to your family Yuyutsu,
But I honestly don't want harm to come to anyone else's family either»

My family doesn't harm anyone else's family, so why harm them by stripping away all they have?

«I just want all people to be able to live in peace and dignity.»

May I suggest this is not going to happen any time soon - we are now living the Kali Yuga, the iron-age, the age of strife, and are destined to remain there for some 426,874 more years. You may find islands of peace, and with the right understanding you can find peace for yourself, but if you expect world-peace then that is unrealistic and you are up for a great disappointment, which is sad.

Go take a holiday from this intense occupation with the Middle-East: once rested you will see so much more!

Hi Yuyutsu,
"You would be tired of watching youtube"
Yes it's true, I'm not there, and your family is.

>>Yet you suggest that they too should be left with nothing, stripped of all property. OK then, not killed, just "neither will have anything".<<

Well, if your family isn't doing anything wrong, doesn't support the government and has a healthy attitude towards peace, and lives on land you own - then I accept that my proposal (to boot everyone off) is completely unfair for you.

But lets say there was question of claim by Palestinians on your land, I don't know that there is, but say there is, well those Palestinians won't be getting it either.

I wouldn't just be hypothetically denying you of that land, but denying everyone of it.

Now, I feel like this is a horrible thing to say, in a way.
So take the human loss of life component out of it, pretend everyone's on holiday at the time.

Let me ask what makes a Palestinians home more deserving of being destroyed than your home?

I don't want your families home destroyed.
I don't anyone else's homes destroyed either.

I don't know how all these people are going sort things out, or even if they can.

Youtube, Twitter, there's a few places to get info.
But you need only look at Australian news stories.

[Cont.]
VIDEO: At least 16 killed after Israeli strike on school in Gaza
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-07/at-least-16-killed-after-israeli-strike-on-school/104069200

I was making fun of the Christians earlier, because they turn a blind eye to it.
I'm sure they'd have plenty to scream about if an F-16 dropped a bomb on the local religious private school their kids went to.
Hypocrisy.

I'm not one for involving oneself in the internal affairs of other nations.
But we do have the right to an opinion.

I stood against the innocent Israelis killed on October 7.
I told you I saw images of 3 dead middle aged Jewish women well dressed for Yum Kipped stacked on top of each other dead at a bus stop and it offended me and I opposed it.
But what I saw happen afterwards also greatly offended me and I opposed it too.

"You may find islands of peace"
No matter what strife exists, we can always still say 'No it's wrong and offensive to bomb schoolkids'.
Maybe it's better to live in blissful ignorance.
But if you know about it, can you easily ignore it and say nothing?

Reminiscent of the NAZI's gassing of Jewish children at Auschwitz, Zionist murderers bombed the UN al-Jaouni school in central Gaza’s, killing 16, mostly children.

"Videos taken at the scene of the attack on the UNRWA school-turned-shelter in Nuseirat showed twisted metal at the collapsed building. A young boy could be seen sifting through pools of blood on the ground."

Dear Critic,

«Well, if your family isn't doing anything wrong, doesn't support the government and has a healthy attitude towards peace, and lives on land you own»

This IS the case.
(but I personally don't own land in Israel, my family does)

«But lets say there was question of claim by Palestinians on your land, I don't know that there is, but say there is, well those Palestinians won't be getting it either.»

To the best of my knowledge there are no claims over my family's land, by anyone, but then they inherited it and built on it and those generations that first acquired the land are no longer with us.

On the other hand, there is an official document running in the family, showing that an ancestor purchased and owned a couple of plots in the West Bank, that is before Israel was created. Nobody in the family will ever be pursuing that land - it is an Arab land and so it should remain, that paper is only kept for curiosity.

In Australia, once one squats on a land for 12 years openly and unchallenged, then they can claim ownership over it - in the UK it is only 10 years, in America it is 5-10 years, in biblical times it used to be only 3 years, but in modern Israel it is 30 years!
My family has been there longer and nobody challenged their land-ownership.

«Let me ask what makes a Palestinians home more deserving of being destroyed than your home?»

My family does not keep weapons, ammunition or rockets anywhere in or around their homes.
No one is or was ever attacked or shot at from my family's homes.
There are no secret entrances to terrorist tunnels in my family's homes, nor any other terrorist infrastructure.
No weapons are manufactured in my family's homes.
No terrorists are hiding in my family's homes.

I honestly believe that the same can be said for all schools and kindergartens attended by the children of my family.

.

Dear ttbn,

.

You wrote :

« … it is a fact that democracy is firmly based on Christian principles and values. »
.

I’m afraid you’re putting the cart before the horse, there, ttbn. Democracy is not based on Christian principles. Christian principles are based on democracy.

Anthropologists have identified forms of proto-democracy that date back to small bands of hunter-gatherers that predate the establishment of agrarian, sedentary societies and still exist virtually unchanged in isolated indigenous groups today. In these groups of generally 50–100 individuals, often tied closely by familial bonds, decisions are reached by consensus or majority and many times without the designation of any specific chief.

Primeval man developed animism as an explanation of natural phenomena, inventing the concept of the supernatural with its cohort of gods and spirits. Tribalism as a form of society developed democracy as a form of governance.

Hinduism is the first and oldest of our modern religions, followed by Zoroastrianism and Judaism. Christianity commenced as a breakaway sect of Judaism.

The Roman emperor Theodosius I, in the Edict of Thessalonica, imposed Nicene Christianity as the official (i.e., the only authorized) religion of the Roman Empire in 380 AD.

There was nothing democratic about that !

.

Armchair Critic paraphrasing- "I don't like the idea of forcing religion on anyone"

Answer-
Patrick Deneen talks about this paraphrasing- "you're either forced to do religion or you have liberalism forced upon you".

Another way "you don't have a choice whether government is authoritarian, but you can choose the type of authoritarianism, traditionalism is the authoritarianism that people have accepted over a long period of time".

Liberalist 'freedom' has become influenced by Marxist Dialectic "you need to nihilistically destroy the traditional down to a blank slate society, and rebuild it from the ashes, (but Trotsky believes that this process will be an eternal coffee grinder of 'permanent revolution') because society is a form of elitist false consciousness that enslaves the proletariat according to class warfare".

If you force the people into a particular type of 'freedom' is it really free?

One point Deneen makes is that without a positive assertion of virtue by leaders it leads to fragmentation and destruction of society. Just like the Marxist Stages Of Revolution, Liberal 'freedom' has it's own authoritarian agenda- this was demonstrated during the recent Covid response by supposed liberal 'free' governments- many of the restrictions still denying people from participating in the economic and social structures.

It seems that you can't escape authoritarianism but some regimes are better than others. The loss of traditional culture and identity will lead to many sociological pathologies. The liberal mostly progressive liberal headlong drive towards liberalism has led and will lead to misery, mistrust, and fragmented tribalism- all 'in the name of the good'. There are do gooders and those who do good

mhaze,

Thanks for the detailed reply. It still suffers from problems I mentioned earlier, however, by oversimplifying the complex socio-political, economic, and cultural factors involved. Your choice of historical figures appears carefully selected, too. You mention contributions from Luther, Newton, and Galileo, while ignoring the broader intellectual and cultural contexts and contributions from non-Christian societies that played a crucial role in the development of Western science, such as Al-Khwarizmi and Ibn al-Haytham.

Firstly, your sharp distinction between Christianity as a religion and the Church is problematic since the Church was a dominant force in shaping medieval and early modern European society. Many advancements attributed to Christian societies were made within Church-dominated environments, such as the preservation and transmission of classical knowledge by monastic scholars during the Middle Ages.

Your claim that Christianity uniquely promotes individualism overlooks similar traditions in other religions. The Sufi tradition in Islam, for example, emphasises personal spiritual experiences and a direct relationship with God. Individual freedom, as well as democracy and human rights, were not values uniformly espoused in Christianity. Medieval and early modern Christian societies, for instance, were often monarchies or theocracies, not democracies.

The abolition of slavery was influenced by several factors, including economic changes and Enlightenment ideals, and was not an exclusively Christian endeavour. The Haitian Revolution, led by enslaved Africans, played a critical role in the global movement towards abolition. Claiming that only Christian societies promoted human rights also overlooks the fact that these movements often arose in opposition to established norms and were influenced by broader humanistic and philosophical trends.

By claiming that Christianity alone facilitated the dissemination of information through the printing press, you overlook the complex dynamics of technological adoption and resistance in various societies. Resistance to the printing press in Europe was not uniformly religious but also political and economic. Europe’s relatively decentralised political landscape allowed for greater diversity in the use of the printing press. Conversely, China’s political landscape was more centralised, enabling tighter control to be exercised over their movable type printing. The presence or absence of Christian values had little to no relevance here.

John Daysh,

"... by oversimplifying the complex socio-political, economic, and cultural factors involved."

We are writing 350 word summaries - oversimplification is inevitable.

Taking a few of your points....

We were talking about the rise of Europe following the Reformation. No question that the Church and the post-Roman feudal system dominated Europe in the thousand years prior to 1500AD and suppressed any chances are advancements.

But that stranglehold broke down for a series of reasons - the Black Death, Gutenberg, Luther etc. The issue is why did that lead to a flowering of thought and learning in Europe. Why not elsewhere.

You keep trying to show that the things I raise as reasons for the rise of Europe weren't unique to Europe. Yes, other religions had some examples of allowing individual approaches to their God. But nowhere other than in Christian Europe did that become the dominant approach and nowhere else did it determine the course of that society. Equally, while it is very true that there were uprisings against slavery in places like Haiti (and for that matter Italy- 70BC - and Arabia - c880AD), no society ever decided that slavery was so abhorrent that it needed to be eliminated not just in its realm, but universally. Its interesting to ponder that when western culture ceases to dominate the planet, slavery will be one of the first things reinstituted.

"By claiming that Christianity alone facilitated the dissemination of information through the printing press,"

You see that's not at all what I'm saying. Christianity didn't ALONE do any of the things I've mentioned. But it was an integral part of the whole societal structure that allowed the Reformation, the enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution.

If you're going to reject a role for Christianity you need to explain why these things happened in Europe but nowhere else. In 1500AD both China and Islamic Asia were better placed to be the location for the next great human advances. They failed and Europe didn't. Christian Europe. Why? Europe had many differences which all partially explain its rise. One of which was Christianity

God's will, or Man's will?

Religious group believed 'God would heal' girl's untreated diabetes, court told
http://www.9news.com.au/national/elizabeth-struhs-trial-religious-group-refuses-to-plead-as-trial-for-girls-death-begins/85aaea58-1b0b-4f40-b136-80b2b8240ec9

"A religious group accused of killing an eight-year-old girl believed "God would heal" her diabetes after they withheld life-saving insulin, a judge has heard.
The group of six men and eight women, including the girl's parents, refused to enter pleas to either murder or manslaughter in Brisbane Supreme Court today.
Elizabeth Struhs died at the family home in Toowoomba, west of Brisbane, on January 7, 2022 after her parents and 12 others allegedly withheld her diabetes medication for six days."

Religious leader’s wild court rant
http://au.news.yahoo.com/religious-leader-wild-court-rant-065400343.html

Hi AC,

In my regular Wednesday night discussion with a group of Christian men, I'm sure they regret the day they invited me to their meetings, I don't follow the script! Last night these "Christian" people were talked about. Others rejected them out of hand as being not Christian. I don't hold that rejectionest opinion, as I said, they read the same Bible as you, they have their subjective interpretation just like you, and they make the same claim as you, that they are "Christian".

p/s I'm still trying to workout what this Christianity6 is. ttbn wont tell me, do you know? Could it be another secret christian society like 'The Saints' and ttbn is a member? The true Christians sitting on the 6th Astral Plain on their pathway to heaven, or some such thing.

Separation of church and state is, itself, a Christian idea. Jesus Christ said, ‘render to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s’. Australia is a secular state because Christianity says so.

Even the world's most famous atheist, Richard Hawkins, regrets the erosion of Christianity. Not being Christian doesn't blind him to the horrors of the other options. He can see as well as anyone what is happening to the West as Christianity is being eased out by the woke.

What is happening now is very encouraging to Muslims, who are waiting to fill the vacuum that will exist if Christianity goes.

Christianity has managed to exist for over 2,000 years.
There are many things that science cannot explain - such
as the meaning of life - and for that reason religion will
continue to exist.

But as Prof. Tor Hundloe asks:

"Today, we seek the good, sustainable life and find not only
unimaginable environmental problems (climate change), but we
replay at a far more dangerous level than in 12th century
warfare, the Crusades. What is the point of
saving humanity and the planet from a possible
environmental disaster if we are going to
keep killing each other in the name of different
prophets of the
same God?"

Human's don't kill each other just in the name "religion" but also in the name of ideology, but maybe this is an opportunity to see religion in the context of an ideology and ideology in the context of a religion.

Ttbn- Destruction of Christianity is just the first stage of the Marxist 'salami slicing' and they will go after the Muslim's later, and have done similar in the past, in the name of their vision of an identitical drone humanity.

The Marxist's and others are trying to weaponize the Muslim's hate of "The Great (White) American Satan" to act as proxy shock troops against the Aristo-Capitalist West which Marxist / Woke have infiltrated. So perhaps the Muslim's enemy isn't who they think it is. Perhaps Socialist Baathist's are the Marxist Muslim rulers in waiting to bring about the Muslim brotherhood under Marxist Woke-ism.

In a sense I support Muslim sovereignty, however the oil is a critical issue as it potentially gives the Muslim's the ability to hold the rest of the world hostage, and to manipulate geo-politics, as they have attempted multiple times. The West needs to find an abundant alternative to natural oil such as nuclear powered synthetic fuel hydrocarbon oil. I see the Roman subsidiarity US dominated model as the least flawed model, that balances the relative autonomy to the people of The Middle East, with Anti-Communism.

There are no perfect political solutions but there are less flawed ones.

Of course Marxist Communism and their useful Woke idiots will be trying to present their own propaganda to support their view. Marxism has been shown multiple times to be a failed ideology, most dramatically and tragically in their killing of 100 Million people. In recent years concepts such as "Equality Of Outcome vs Equality Of Opportunity" have started to shed light on the reason's for the failure of the Marxist Nihilist approach.

People in Western democracies have certain fundamental
rights and freedoms. Our laws are based on the principle
that the law serves the individual, not the state. and that
state political interests cannot outweigh the interests of
the individual.

In contrast, V. I. Lenin made it clear that, in his political
philosophy, law has but one primary goal. "A law is a
political measure, it is politics."

No Soviet authority or communist leader has abandoned this
concept.

It has been applied in the territories "liberated" by the
Bolsheviks during the October revolution, in the captive nations
occupied by the Red Army during World War II and in the lands won
by military force or "wars of liberation" in Asia, Africa, the
Far East, and the Caribbean.

In our country we believe in a person's right to liberty
and in restraining the power of our rulers. This is a concept
foreign to the system resulting from the Bolshevik revolution
and communist controlled lands.

The distinction between the two concepts is one
believes in freedom, liberty, and the right to the pursuit of
happiness as opposed to the interest, control, and domination
of the state over the individual.

Lenin's perception was so repulsive to the legal traditions of
Western Democracies - that they have long been complacent in the
belief that the specter of Lenin's concept of law was confined
to the sphere of communist influence and control.

Attempts are now being made to spread it further by Putin's
invasion of Ukraine - as a stepping stone, and by China trying
to reach out to other spheres.

We do need to be vigilant. It may be someone else today - but
it could be us under threat tomorrow.

Religion is not oppressed in China, in fact China has higher rates of religious participation than Australia. So much for communism oppressing religion. As a percentage of the population more Cubans, a communist country, practice Christian religion (Catholic) than in Australia.

National surveys conducted during the early 21st century estimated that 80% of the Chinese population practice some form of folk religion, for a total of over 1 billion people. 13–16% of the population are Buddhists, 10% are Taoists; 2.53% are Christians, and 0.83% are Muslims.

mhaze,

While summarising complex historical events in a limited word count inevitably involves some simplification, it’s important to recognize that Europe’s rise was influenced by multiple factors, not just Christianity. Events like the Black Death, Gutenberg’s printing press, and the Reformation were significant, but they were part of a larger mix that included political fragmentation, economic changes, and the rediscovery of classical texts from Greek and Islamic scholars.

Europe’s geopolitical and economic conditions played a crucial role. Unlike the centralised empires of China and the Islamic world, Europe’s competitive state system fostered innovation and exploration. This political fragmentation created an environment where states and cities competed, driving progress. Additionally, new trade routes and colonisation provided the financial resources needed for scientific and industrial advancements.

Intellectual and cultural exchanges between Europe and other regions were also vital. The translation of Arabic texts into Latin during the Middle Ages brought significant scientific, mathematical, and philosophical knowledge to Europe. Chinese inventions such as gunpowder, the compass, and papermaking had major impacts on European development. These exchanges show that Europe’s advancements were part of a broader, interconnected world.

Regarding slavery, the idea that only Christian societies abolished it overlooks the complex historical reality. The abolition movement in Europe and America was driven by Enlightenment ideals and economic changes, not solely Christian doctrine. Slavery persisted in various forms even in Christian societies long after its official abolition, influenced by economic inefficiency and political pressure from activists and enslaved people.

The Reformation was a complex phenomenon influenced by political and economic factors as well as religious ones. The rise of Protestantism provided a counterbalance to the Catholic Church’s authority, aligning with political rulers seeking greater independence. This decentralisation allowed for a variety of ideas and reduced the monopoly of religious dogma, fostering an environment where scientific and intellectual exploration could thrive.

Europe’s advancements resulted from a unique combination of political, economic, intellectual, and cultural factors, with Christianity being one of many contributing elements. Recognizing this complexity provides a more accurate understanding of why Europe emerged as a dominant force in the early modern period.

ttbn,

The idea that the separation of church and state is uniquely a Christian concept based on Jesus’ words demonstrates a naivete on the history of its origins.

While the phrase, "Render to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s", has been interpreted to support the separation, it wasn't the main driver of this concept in Western political development. The separation of church and state really took shape during the Enlightenment, influenced by thinkers like John Locke, who argued for individual rights and freedoms, including religious freedom. These ideas came from a broader philosophical movement rather than directly from Christian doctrine alone.

Saying that Australia is a secular state because Christianity dictates it misses the point. Secularism in Australia, like in many Western countries, was shaped by Enlightenment principles emphasising the importance of keeping religious authority separate from government to protect freedom of conscience for everyone, regardless of their beliefs.

The idea that the decline of Christianity is creating a vacuum that Islam will fill is speculative and overlooks the diversity of beliefs and secular trends in modern Western societies. While some Muslims might see opportunities in this context, it’s important to remember that Western societies are characterised by a wide range of beliefs and ideologies. The future cultural and religious landscape will be shaped by many factors, including migration, education, and political developments.