Australia has certainly changed. Our population has
massively increased. We're ageing. Our growing
population is increasing not only through increased
longevity but immigration. There have been significant
shifts in the countries of birth. Previously the
countries of arrival were of British, European and
New Zealand stock while today China, India, dominate
with Vietnam and the Philippines not far behind.

The workforce has changed. Today we have emphasis on
the professional, scientific, technical, IT and
the financial sectors making up the biggest employers.

In addition the shifts to our national identity are
significant. Of course the old affections run deep.
However, there is a recognition of our country today
as a cultural hub, a technology exporter, a fashion
destination, a small business nation, and a nation
capable of hosting iconic events.

Many Australians hold very strongly on to an identity
and "Aussie values."

It would be interesting to debate how we really feel
about our place in a world of global inter-action?
What does it mean to be Australian?
Is our cultural identity interpreted beyond the
beach or sport?

Are Australians comfortable in their own skin, embracing
our sunburnt country with all of its iconic landmarks,
yet proud of our cultural achievements and our diverse
cities?

What are our reflections of a 21st Century Australia?
Are the reflections - with a new sophistication or
with a cringe?

Good discussion, lots to explore.

"The workforce has changed. Today we have emphasis on the professional, scientific, technical, IT and the financial sectors making up the biggest employers."

I wonder about this;
The offshoring of industry and manufacturing.
The death of the blue collar worker;
results in - the death of 'the voice of' the blue collar worker.
The white collar workers voice took prominence.

Also, there was a certain amount of pride we had in ourselves, when the vast majority of goods we had in our homes was made in Australia, by Australians.

We wanted cheaper goods, but we wanted higher wages.
Did we shoot ourselves in the foot when we stopped being competitive and decided it was cheaper and easier to just buy foreign made goods?

Armchair Critic,
Societies worldwide shot themselves in the foot by blindly believing that educated people are intelligent, useful & decent ! A very small number are but the majority are saturation indoctrinated lemmings with a massive sense of entitlement.

I certainly remember the times when although our
salaries were much lower, our jobs were more
secure, and people could afford to buy a home
with a quarter acre plot. Back yards were
great for kids, and yes, we had products that
were Australian made.

Today rising living costs are a concern, followed by
housing affordability and economic stability.

Y

Researcher Mark McCrindle tells us how we've changed in
other ways. That we've changed :

"From the ocker, dinki-di cliches and a noticeable
cultural cringe to a national self-confidence, professionalism
and a more sophisticated Australian pride."

"From cobbers, blokes, and mates, to a recognition of the
importance of a connected diverse community. From the
land of the long week-end to a hard-working approach to work."

To a "no worries, we can sort it out." From an anti-authority
attitude to an appreciation of the support and safety offered.
From the tall poppy syndrome to a place that celebrates local
success and achieves world class results. From beer,
barbies and meat pies to a cosmopolitan urban culture."

Not sure if I agree with all of that.

Like many people, I have a deep nostalgia for the past.

A time when change came at a much slower pace.
When you rang any business you actually got a person
to talk to not a recording that told you which button
to press. A time when customer service was a priority
and really mattered and good manners were considered
important.

The last decades have seen unprecedented change,
economically, generationally, and technologically.
Social researcher Mark McCrindle tells us that most
experts agree that Australia "has weathered the storm
well."

McCrindle explains that it's all a result of our
enterpreneural spirit, our proximity to Asia, our
connections to America and England, our education,
and most of all our diversity and the unity in our
communities which enables our future to look good.

He stresses the importance of our continuing to plan
for growth.

I agree with the importance of planning for growth.
But are we moving too fast?

I guess we can only make our own judgements about
this country based on our own experiences, our
specific way of life and our values.

After having worked and lived overseas for over a decade
we decided to come home to Australia. It was for a variety
of reasons. Also for the sake of our children who were
born overseas. We thought that they would thrive better in
this country than elsewhere.

Some of the issues that were important were:

Education. Australia has good free primary and secondary
public schools. As well as great private ones. It has a
broader curriculum and better teaching standards than
those we encountered in the US.

Safety was a concern. Especially living in the US. We have
stronger gun-control laws for a start. Our weather's great
compared to London. The cost of living is still lower than
living in New York or London. Here it's still cheaper.

Then there was culture. Melbourne has enough to keep us
entertained. I guess it depends on what you're looking for.
Housing - for us was not a problem. We managed to get high
paying jobs - worked hard and buy a home. Social tensions
were not a problem. Our families and friends welcomed us home.

Our working experiences in this country were not as interesting
as we had overseas. However, they had improved immensely
from what we had experienced in the past. A more diverse range
of people had begun to creep into positions at work which
made things more interesting.

We don't regret coming back at all. Australia still has enormous
potential to develop even further. Hopefully it will continue
to maintain its planning towards a sustainable future.

The workforce has not changed - the workforce was newly created.

Beforehand, people just worked when they wanted to feed themselves and their families - that was their private matter and they were not a part of any such "force".

When I first came to Australia, I was impressed and refreshed to see how people live for themselves, not for some nebulous "nation" or such, each following their own unique lifestyle as they wished and most were pretty relaxed about it. There was not any such "national agenda", and even if there was such somewhere in Canberra, ordinary people did not feel it and were at liberty to completely ignore and not do anything about it.

Life in Australia was so much more direct and simple.

This is sadly no longer the case.

Nobody was speaking of "identity" either then, neither national nor sexual nor of any other kind: Identity was, as should, reserved to be just a mathematical symbol!

---

Dear Foxy,

I was not intending to participate in this thread, but I saw that line of yours with the single "Y": were you referring to me by chance?

Hi Yuyutsu,

I think the Y was probably a typo.

I'm sorry that you won't be taking part in this discussion.
but I understand. I also am very nostalgic about many aspects
of this country's past.

However, life always offers you a
second chance. It's called tomorrow. And what we do with it
is up to us. I find that just criticizing and finding fault
is not very productive. Plus some of the constant attacks
that continue to take place on this forum for me take up
too much negative energy.

I prefer to remain positive - and try to seek solutions.
We have to try to learn to live with each other on this
planet - and look for what unites not divides us.

But enough said.

Anyone remember the days when you could pay by cash not
have to pay to a machine with plastic?
When you could talk to a person in a business on the
telephone directly without much delay?
When sport was played for fun not money?

When people lived well on one income?

When housing was modest not flashy, dodgy, and
contrived When TV was black and white and radio was
strong and content was more important than the
presenter? When movies in cinemas were popular?

When people didn't have to pay to exercise.
They exercised through exertion and working hard?
When you bought meat in a butchers, greens in a
greengrocers, shoes in a shoe shop, clothes in a
clothes shop and beer in a pub?

When you could buy Australian made products. Be it cars,
white goods, electronics, souvenirs such as koalas, and
many woolen products from blankets and jumpers to coats
and jackets?

When few people had air-conditioning. This was reserved
for large department stores and some cinemas. It was rare to
have air-conditioning in cars and homes. When you voted for
policies not personalities. When more companies had regional
offices and people who didn't eat much were poor, not bulimic
or dieting?

Remember when we had more banks to choose from and more
branches locally. When banks were more competitive?
When public transport was the way to travel as not many had
cars. When there were Royal portraits on display everywhere
from schools, offices, and even pubs?

Yes things certainly have changed.

Perhaps I have lived in a bubble in the past.
One major change that I have noticed in 21st
Century Australia is the mean-spiritedness, aggression,
and intolerance that exists today that was not so openly
obvious in the past where people did care about being
polite and good-mannered. Now days even on our roads,
when driving, road rage is common.

A shame this trend is rearing its ugly head.

No then & now, just pre Labor & Labor !

Indyvidual,

I remember the times when you had to be exactly the same
as everybody else. When you didn't want to rock the boat
and had to fit in. When your relatives were told to
"Speak English" on buses and trains. When you Anglo - sized
your names to be acceptable. And the list goes on.

Today, you don't have those concerns anymore. You can be
who you want to be - and be proud of it.

So I don't know about your "pre-Labor" and "post-Labor."
It's up to your own judgements and experiences and of
course values - but there were/are, good and bad things
then as well as now.

Ours is a country that's evolving all the time. Who knows
what the future will be. But as I'm a glass half full
kind of person - I think we'll be just fine.

Boys suspended debating the issue of which girls in their class are the prettiest.
- Did the boys change, or did the rules and expectations change?

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/may/06/yarra-valley-grammar-students-suspended-spreadsheet-rating-female-classmates

So I don't know
Foxy,
That's quite obvious. As for 'I think we'll be just fine', there is no 'we' in the Labor World only an us & them ! Just ask Paul1405 who is pushing that divison.

When your relatives were told to "Speak English" on buses and trains. When you Anglo - sized your names to be acceptable.

Was it so hard?
We don't like people looking at us and muttering in a foreign language.
No-one does.
It's disrespectful to us and disrespectful to our country.
- And you'd be advertising that you didn't give a crap about assimilating or the feelings of the people already here, born here.
You'd be taking the goodwill we offered by allowing your family to come here and be spitting in our faces.

If you want to be 'included' or 'considered' by us for anything within our communities, we need to know how to address you, if we don't know how to say your bloody name, and you want to make a big deal of it, but make no effort to speak english, then we would pass you over and others like you as dealing with you is too hard.

You people expect everything, but we don't even want to talk to you, stand there looking stupid trying to pronounce your name, and comprehend your broken english.

I still say there were 2 types of racism.
There's was the really bad types, like 'gas Jews' and 'lynch negroes'
- And then there was the type of racism-lite which was more about retaining our own culture 'Australian tribalism'.
We may have said 'bloody wog', but we weren't out to shoot the bloke.

And it's the demise of this 'Australian tribalism' - 'A culture that doesn't want anyone else's culture', that made Australia the awesome country it was, it was THAT Australia that brought us our Paul Hogans.
- Lovable larrikins.

Now is all about UN political correct woke bs.
What a sad and pathetic culture that is!

This woke culture, took Paul Hogan away and put some blue haired whiny soy sipping efeminate pro-gay weirdo in its place, and everyone is dancing to the same pathetic tune, neutered and too gutless to defend their own interests for fear of offending some snowflake.

[This comment was first posted elsewhere on an incorrect thread]
- It's a shame the thread name doesn't display in the 'preview' btw.

Here's an interesting thought exercise for you Foxy,
I notice over on the other forum we have this new poster 'Random'
- Welcome to the forum, Random.

You'll notice the temperature just rose slightly between Fester and Random, with Fester calling Random a moron, and Random responding asking if Fester is offended and so what if he is...

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=10386&page=0#360347

Now, like you I support the 'let the Palestinians be free of genocide' side of the argument, and I'm fine with Randoms comment on Israel, but the second he's gotten niggly back at Fester, (even if it's a kind of valid response) I kind of feel this need to chime in and say 'go easy newcomer' in Festers defence.

It's as if....

The people from within the 'established long term group' would 'rally around their long-term peer' in defence and opposition to the 'cheeky new upstart'.

Here's the curious thing right: Would that comment have resembled 'racist' behavior?

Like if we could all see the colours of each others skin, and we could all see that I was white, and if hypothetically Random was brown skinned, and I just said 'go easy newcomer', would that be considered to be said with 'racial undertones'?

'Rally around their long-term peer' (like I almost did for Fester) might be similar to the same type of behavior which relates to racism

But really, it would have nothing to do with racism, but more about 'newcomer initiation' into the existing ways things are done around here...

Not sure if anyone will follow me here... [smiles]

Hi AC,

The disrespect did not come from my parents.
They learned English very quickly (they
actually spoke several languages). Also they
were invited to come to Australia from the
Displaced people's camps in Germany to satisfy
Australia's labour shortage at that time.

They fulfilled the two year contracts that they
had to sign. They worked wherever they were sent.
And contributed towards building the country's
infrastructure. They contributed. They fitted ij.

The only disrespect shown was to them - it did not
come from them.

_______________________________________________________________

Hi AC,

As for the Yarra Valley Grammar private school suspending
3 male students over a spreadsheet rating the attractiveness of
female students?

Apparently the spreadsheet used offensive language and
referred to sexual violence, using terms such as - "unrapeable."

The school principal said:

"We see this as a very serious matter it's completely counter
to everything that we hold dear here at the school."

Considering the patterns of violence against women - any
suggestions of violent acts and disrespecting females has
to stop - especially in schools.

Perhaps there will be a lesson learned in all of this.
___________________________________________________________________

Indyvidual,

You're the one preaching division here.

Lighten up.

People who are not all that motivated to learn english, will end up creating small enclaves, because as soon as one non-english speaking person makes friends with another from their previous country who does speak a language they CAN understand, then these people will live with their own where they can communicate and not put effort into learning english.

Hi AC,

Younger generations will generally assimilate.
The older ones may have problems depending on age.
But that's true of any group.
People ten to stick to what they feel
comfortable with. Still we can't make sweeping
generalizations - there's always individual
differences.

And God Bless the different communities. We're
all the richer for them.

>>Apparently the spreadsheet used offensive language and
referred to sexual violence, using terms such as - "unrapeable."<<
- Yes, regrettably. I'd hate to be the principal on this one.

"We see this as a very serious matter it's completely counter
to everything that we hold dear here at the school."
- Is it counter to high school boys naturally increased levels of testosterone?
Gone is the non-sexualised days of primary school, in these young adolescents lives.
Suddenly the girls have boobs, and are wearing makeup and tight little pants, they start to admire their teen heart-throb, both sexes start having 'crushes' on members of the opposite sex (usually) and yes, the boys most certainly do notice which girls in their grade are the prettiest.

There's no avoiding or denying that part of our DNA.
- Whatever they 'hold dear' must fit into that reality above.

It's not a very respectable rating system, but you can't stop boys being boys.
(Hang on, there may actually an ongoing social experiment to that end)
Toxic Masculinity - aka Soyboy promotion... but I digress

I guess the problem with the pretty girls is the feelings of the not-so-pretty girls.
How horrible it would be for them being given such a rating and being placed on such a list.
The embarrassment, humiliation and shame, for something not your fault.
Like 'being unpretty' - didn't not already give you the poor end of the stick in the cards you were dealt being born...

Can't promote rape or be seen to.
Suspension was fair and reasonable.
Beyond that...

"Perhaps there will be a lesson learned in all of this."

- What's the lesson? (because I don't know)

Continuing on from what I said earlier...

"But really, it would have nothing to do with racism, but more about 'newcomer initiation' into the existing ways things are done around here..."...

- How much of 'White Australia racism' was really 'racism for the sake of racism'?
And how much of 'racism' was actually just 'newcomer initiation' where to try to put it a better way;

We didn't specifically hate any one foreign race in particular, we hated them all equally. Wog, Pom, Yank...
(Hate is not the right word)

And that's why I kind of think our culture was best described as:
'We don't have a culture, and we sure as hell don't bloody-well want yours!"

We didn't hate foreigners, it was a kind of loveable or respectful animosity, cajoling each other, defending our country and culture and pride in the nation, in a more blue-collar thicker-skinned era.

Hi AC,

The lesson regarding the school boy's behaviour is -
blaming it on testosterone or "she asked for it,"
is no longer going to be excused. zip it up and take
responsibility for your own behaviour.
Excusing and inciting violence against females is
not acceptable behaviour. And you shall be punished.

Hi AC,

Past behaviour concerning "foreigners" depends on the
circumstances involved. Each case is different.
And there have been many examples given in the past.
Much has been written on the subject. Not all of it
can be described as "friendly " behavior. Not all
of it was well-intentioned.

I guess that what I'm trying to say...
- Is whether or not we went too far?

I think we did.

Some western countries now have significant Muslim populations, and they want their own caliphates in our western countries.

It's like we put this ideal, to not be racist and not offend anyone...
- To create this multicultural utopia, above the idea of actually being a nation that decides things for ourselves.

That some foreigner came along and decided for all of us, what should be best for all of us.

Could we not have found some kind of balance in between remaining a proud nation that would stick up for its own interests, instead of becoming a neutered nation just like all the rest that feel we must all be part of this global ideology instead of our existing individuality?

Like I said somewhere to you earlier...
We've become a nation that hates and despises our own flag-wavers, like somehow they're 'right-wing' 'anti-immigrant' 'unAustralian colonisers'.
And those who still wave it are made to feel guilty and do it in defiance.

It's almost as it we've become so ashamed of our past and desperate to follow the diversity religion that we all have to publicly burn the flag, denounce Paul Hogan, take up a same sex partner, (preferable a plus size one - because we don't want to fat shame anyone) and post selfies once a month on facebook with a gay, trans or different skin coloured friend while enjoying some weird foreign food, to reinforce and celebrate cultural diversity.
That we need to make displays laying in the ground in the fetal position, that we must publicly pee our pants a little bit in a display of acceptance and agreement for the new diversity religion.

And if we don't then we don't fit into the new idea of what's acceptable in this current age.
That's how ridiculous this whole cultural transition has become.

And well the Aussie in me says go and get stuffed.

Hi AC,

I'm right there next to you. I am a proud Aussie.
But I don't look upon others in any derogatory
way. I take people as I find them. Today we're
all of mixed ancestry. So calling people who consider
themselves Aussies as "foreigners" is a bit rude.
It's what you feel in your heart - that I think
matters. And "foreigners" have been coming to this
country for centuries and making it their own.

We pride ourselves on giving people a "fair-go".
We should practice it more often for it to have
any meaning.

'Nuff said.

Hi AC,

I forgot to add - why can't we just take people
on how they behave without factoring in their race or
ancestry?

Why should certain people be considered superior or
more acceptable than others? Aren't we all a mixture?

In my family - there's a variety of ancestries. As I'm
sure there are in most of us.

why can't we just take people
on how they behave without factoring in their race or
ancestry?

Foxy,
That's exactly & precisely what 99% of Australians do & get accused of racism for !

"So calling people who consider themselves Aussies as 'foreigners' is a bit rude."
- Lol.

It's not like I'm down at the shops and see people...
'who clearly look like they have come from overseas'
... And I greet them with 'Hello there foreigner.'
- I'm not going to talk to people that way.

The word 'foreigners' need not have any racial aspect to it to still be valid.
Even if all the people in the world were the same race, if 'foreigners' come to a place where people already were, too many at once for example and this has a negative impact on the existing populace, then you can understand them saying 'I'm sick of all these foreigners', regardless of whether they looked different or not.

"And 'foreigners' have been coming to this country for centuries and making it their own."
- I'm not disputing that, nor am I saying I'm opposed to 'foreigners'.
The whiteness in me is essentially foreign on this continent, 12 generations back.

"We pride ourselves on giving people a 'fair-go'.
We should practice it more often for it to have any meaning."

- Ideally, yes - but we don't have much to be proud about anymore.
And we don't have huge untapped potential, or great opportunities like existed in the past.
I wonder if 'fair-go' means different things to different people.

"I forgot to add - why can't we just take people on how they behave without factoring in their race or ancestry?"
"Why should certain people be considered superior or more acceptable than others? Aren't we all a mixture?"
- I'm trying to think about it in the way I see it in relation to my age, then and now...
Growing up as a kid on the Gold Coast in the last 70's and 80's.
Paul Hogan, Peter Brock, Dick Johnson, Americas cup.
That era, I'm sure many here are a lot older so you memory might be different to mine.

I'm not entirely sure that era can simply be defined as a 'racist' era.
Or that the 'Australian way' of those days should be remembered as 'racism oriented' and vilified in that way.
It wasn't even about race, it was about something else, something more, something 'ours'.
Our own unique 'flavor'.
And you can't have an 'ours' unless you set yourself apart from the others.
You think when Australia played the West Indies in the 80's in the cricket (in a so-called racist era) that we disliked them because they were black.
- The answer is no, it wasn't that way, we didn't even dislike them at all.

We had our own thing, everyone had their own thing.
Now no-ones allowed to have their own thing.

It was the end of a nationalist era towards a more globalised era.