Our Foreign Affairs Minister surely knows why these interminable wars
in the Middle East just go on and on.
Someone in her position must have had it made clear to her that
primally for religious reasons a two state solution has always been
rejected by Islamic countries and terrorist groups.
The Koran has made Allah's attitude to the Jews plain to all.
Moslems CANNOT disobey what is in the Koran.

As in previous times Israel will accept discussion on this matter
and if I remember correctly they did accept a couple of two state
suggestions but the Islamists always rejected the offers.

Wong knows nothing now. She has nothing to “better”. She is back on the two-state nonsense, even now saying that Australia should recognise a Palestinian state. She is spending our money on terrorists.

Bezza: who is going to make anything “clear” to her. Certainly not the PM who should be the leader, but instead has actually said that he will leave Ministers to do their own thing. And Minister Wong is an evil woman, batting for an evil lot of people: Hamas, UNRWA, and a majority of Palestinians who want Israel and all Jews wiped out.

Hamas and Palestinians do not want a state of their own alongside Israel; they want the lot, with no Israel.

The only solution is the extermination of Hamas, the PA and UNRWA, with the re-occupation of Gaza, plus a re-elected Donald Trump to get the Abraham Accord going again.

Thanks for raising the subject of the most dangerous Foreign Minister Australia has ever had; and she's only in the Senate, where any party-backed idiot can land with a minimum vote from the population.

Yes Bezza, the wars in the Middle East will go on, militant Islam is not going to disappear in the foreseeable future, which requires Israel to be very strong.

However, since its 1967 occupation, Israel has been severely weakened from within and the greatest danger it faces is neither the Arabs nor Muslims, but its internal corruption and loss of direction. Among many other ills, if not for Israel's 1967 occupation, Israel would not be besieged today by the criminal Netanyahu and his Nazi Messianic companions. That Hamas dared to attack Israel on October 7th and that Israel is presently losing the war, are only symptoms of Israel's internal weakness.

There are no "Palestinians" and those who tactically and cynically call themselves so never wanted an independent state, but hey, if giving them a state against their will may help Israel rid itself of the West Bank and Gaza then that would be helping Israel so much on its internal front - so let it be so and I therefore support Penny Wong's "support" of the false "Palestinian cause".

Yes, Hamas, UNRWA, and a majority of Palestinians want Israel and all Jews wiped out - but with a strong Israel, especially morally strong and incorruptible, they will never get it!

The sensible media is asking who is running the country: Wong or Albanese.

Albanese doesn't even answer ABC questions on Israel. The little bit he does say is contradicted by Wong - and he let's her get away with it.

Wong's Palestinian state would be government by Hamas. Think about that.

Fortunately, Israel and Netanyahu won't be taking any notice of pissants like Wong and Albanese. They are our problems.

Here's an aside that some people might not be aware of:

Analysts have identified 20 seats with Muslim communities with the potential to decide a federal election. The career politicians in those seats would convert to Islam to hang onto their overpaid cushy jobs, with the truly awful Tony Burke first cab off the rank.

Again from the non-MSM, Israel might block Australia's ‘special adviser’ from taking part in the investigation of the accidental deaths of the people who voluntarily entered a war zone.

The possibility has occurred after a “hostile” letter from Wong and Marles, which is said to seriously threaten the Australia/Israel relationship.

Our worst PM ever is allowing his Ministers to embarrass Australia, and give it the name of the most anti-Israel country in the West.

The mainstream media is not going to be able to cover for this appalling Albanese government forever.

https://youtu.be/UANFemEXR_0?si=GuJGJ6XMVcJPhmuF

The Australian Jewish population is the 8th largest
in the world according to the World Jewish
Congress.

It's members have historically been active in this
country's civil society and many have been notably
elected to positions in high offices federally, and
in the state and in judiciary positions.

There's also a uniquely low-rate of inter-marriage,
estimated to only be around 15%. The Jewish communal
organizations have been very effective in achieving
their goals. Their influence is effective.

Our Foreign Minister, Penny Wong has stated that she's
seeking to add Australia's voice to the effort to find
a pathway to peace on behalf of the Australian government
and people.
She's made it clear that this is what she's tried to do
on behalf of all of us.

She's stated that it is really clear how heavily this conflict
weighs on the people of the region. She's also stated that
both Israelis and Palestinians want very similar things - peace.

The Foreign Minister has said that Australia does have
an interest in a just and enduring peace and that it has
an obligation to deal with the challenges in their entirety
rather than simple binaries.

The Foreign Minister has clarified that Australia IS a friend
of Israel. It IS also a friend of the Palestinian people.
Australians are increasingly concerned about the civilian
toll and are increasingly concerned about the urgent need
for humanitarian access. We see that from protests and the
news and media.

Penny Wong has spoken about the risk of regional escalation
and also about settler violence. These and many other issues
have informed her discussions.

She appreciates the courtesy shown to her by the people and
government of Israel and by the Palestinian communities and
the Palestinian Authority. None of whom have shown her any
disrespect.

The question about our elections;
How many of the 400,000 coming this year are from Islamic countries ?
The Labour Party seems to be leaning that way.
The next election results will be worth examining.
From such worries are civil wars made !

If I was a bird I know who I would crap on!

Bezza asks; How many of the 400,000 coming this year are from Islamic countries? Would seem a very small number from these stats)

India. (80% Hindu)
China. (70% no religion 15% Buddhist)
Philippines. (86% Roman Catholic)
Nepal. (80% Hindu)
United Kingdom. (40% Protestant Christians high % no religion)
New Zealand. (35% Christian, high % of no religion)
Vietnam. (mixed between no religion, folk religion and Buddhist& Christian)
South Africa. (85% Christian)

In Australia despite some wanting us to believe hoards of Islamist's have been flooding the country over recent years the total Islamic population is 3.2%.

Another ttbn unsustainable claim; "Analysts have identified 20 seats with Muslim communities with the potential to decide a federal election" Total BS from the Hansonite, Name these 20 seats.
"Analysts" indeed, name these "Analysts"!

Hi Bezza,

I think your concerns and fetish with Muslims may be
unwarranted.

According to the 2021 Census - Muslims in this country
only make up 3.2% of the population.

Chinese make up 5.5%. And Brits are still the highest at
6.6%.

Hinduism in Australia is the fastest growing
religion. Hindus make up 2.7% of the population.

Singling out just one religion is not a wise or credible
act.

Hi Paul,

Does Pauline Hanson count as an "analyst?"

She after all has predicted so much hasn't she?

Hi Foxy,

A lot of words spring to mind to describe the Lovely Pauline, "analyst" is not one of them.

Here's a joke for you, Did you hear the one about the silly Old Fart who joined a far right political party a few years back, put his welfare money into it, even got active, advised others to vote far right. The party hierarchy were jet setting around the country, staying in 5 star hotels, have big nosh ups all on Old Farts money. After the election where they scored half a percent of the vote, they shut up shop quick smart and left the Old Fart high and dry, minus his dosh! There's a sucker born every minute, Not very funny ah!

Hi Paul,

Here's a joke I just remembered:

If TGIS - is Thank God it's Friday
Then tomorrow must be SH * T
Sure happy it's Thursday.

And here's another one"

I never said I hated anyone. I just said that if some people
were on fire I might consider toasting marshmellows.

Foxy, I think my concerns are reasonable.
I just take them at their word.
I also watch what is happening in Europe, it is all there to see.
It seems that the danger level is 10%.
However what they believe is the real problem.
As a women I just cannot see why a woman would take a relaxed attitude
to their rules on women.
Just one rule, women can only receive half of the inheritance that
their brothers receive.
Don't think Sharia law won't be implemented long before they can
change the law.
NB Britain has legal Sharia Courts. How does that grab you ?

Baz,

Your concerns are very reasonable. There is nothing reasonable about the scolds and cranks who inevitably go against reason, so there is no point in arguing with them; they just keep on barking.

Dutton has finally spoken up, saying, “It is the most reckless act I have seen in my 22 years in Parliament - and it has weakened our international standing”.

Wong's comments were “utterly illogical, I'll timed and inappropriate”, he said. “For a crass domestic policy win, Penny Wong has irreparably damaged our relations with our ally Israel.”

In the meantime, reruns of two Hamas lunatics saying that they don't want a two state ‘solution’ are being aired, and Israel has repeated that they will manage their affairs; they will not be managed by the rest of the world.

As an antidote to Wacky Wong, some posters might like to read this article by a secular Muslim married to a Jew.

https://dailydeclaration.org.au/2024/04/08/we-cant-turn-blind-eye-to-extremist-anti-semitic-hate-in-australia/

Hi Bezza,

To each of us, our concerns usually seem reasonable
don't they? I take people as I find them. And as we
know there are extremists and fundamentalists among
each group of people and religious groups. Besides
not all Muslims practice their religion in exactly
the same way. There are so many cultural, and linguistic,
differences between them.

We are different from the rest of the world. We've
dealt with multi-culturalism very well and our policies
and programs have helped. We have had stable governments
and out system of government has contributed greatly to
our stability. I think we live in the best country in
the world.

_________________________________________________________________

As for Israel going its own way and doing its own thing
without listening to the rest of the world?

It just may end up losing the support, financial included,
and it's future could be rather dim. You can't keep on spitting
in people's faces with no dire consequences.

How kids are educated is critical. The Nazis knew this and actively involved kids in the ideology. There is substantial evidence that kids are being brought up to believe it their duty to eliminate Israel. There will not be peace with this mindset, and the irony is that Wong and Albo fund the abusive education of children by funding UNRWA.

ttbn, That is a great article and identifies the problem Australia faces as Islam grows to 5% of the population. Keep this article alive.

http://dailydeclaration.org.au/2024/04/08/we-cant-turn-blind-eye-to-extremist-anti-semitic-hate-in-australia/

In life it is important to know when to stop
arguing and just let them be wrong.

ttbn, very good article tks for putting it up.
It doe give a glimmer of hope.
Her comment that extremists should not be deported but deradicalised
I don't think that is a reliable technique.
The British tried that to their sorry, eg London Bridge murders.

No easy answers.

'Penny Wong Must Know Better'

Maybe she knows the West is done.
The American empire's coming to an end.
There's no stopping it.

Xi meets Lavrov, reaffirms China's emphasis on partnership with Russia
http://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202404/1310290.shtml

>>Multipolar world

China always attaches great importance to the development of China-Russia relations, and stands ready to strengthen bilateral communication with Russia and enhance multilateral strategic coordination in BRICS and the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO), Xi said when meeting with the visiting Russian top diplomat.

Xi said that the two countries will show more responsibility, unite countries in the Global South in the spirit of equality, openness, transparency and inclusiveness, promote the reform of the global governance system, and vigorously lead the building of a community with a shared future for humanity.

China and Russia are trying to promote a multipolar world where developing countries and emerging economies of the Global South will play a greater role, which is the antithesis of the unipolar world dominated by the US, analysts said.

"China and Russia will not target any third party, but if hegemonic forces threaten China and Russia, or threaten world peace, China and Russia will stand together and fight to protect their own interests and safeguard world peace together," said Li Haidong, a professor at the China Foreign Affairs University.

This is why China and Russia, as well as other members in the UN Security Council, are pushing an immediate cease-fire and the resumption of humanitarian aid to Gaza, even as the US vetoed these attempts time and again, before the Ramadan cease-fire resolution eventually passed on March 25, experts said.<<

Do you not understand that Russia and China are stating they have each other's backs.
That means there's no chance of the West succeeding in Ukraine,
And no chance of the West prevailing in a war with China.
All military assumptions need to be thrown in the toilet.
Western powers have recently miscalculated militarily already, we all need to be aware of that.

Speaking of hegemonic forces...
UNTHINKABLE: US Threatens Chinese Banks As China DUMPS More Dollars For Gold
http://youtu.be/RIt6tu1RjBg

Yellen was sent packing.

Hi AC,

American policy, and indeed most of the world's policy is for a two state solution. Its clear that Israel is looking to obliterate any possibility of a free Palestinian state, Gaza is only stage one, the West Bank will be next. The Zionists are systematically removing as many Palestinians through genocide as it can, in its quest to create a Pan-Israeli state which doesn't include the Palestinian people.

Baz

The "easy answer" was do not import these people into the West, but it's too late now.

The article does show that there is a lot more better stuff going on behind the non-stop negativity of the mainstream media, and the constant bellowing of the Left and other hate preachers.

I think also, we must remember that while OLO is a good outlet for our opinions, it is not representative of the average Australians, who proved themselves with the rejection of Albanese’s Voice con.

Let's hope they demonstrate their good sense at the next election by kicking out Communist China’s mate, Albanese - even if we have to get the Liberals back until something better comes along.

Good on you, Baz.

Islam in its various forms each has its cultural centers in Australia, from the moderates to the extremists, who educate their congregations in their values. We do have jihadists in Australia as evident from murders commited on our soil in the name a Allah.

Australia is going down the gurgler because of:

. Politicians like Wong and Albanese, Green Labor and the Leftists in the Coalition
. Anti-Christianity
. Homosexuality
. Same sex marriage
. Gender bending
. Climate hysteria and expensive, unreliable energy
. Lack of manufacturing
. Dealing with a vile Communist China
. Mass immigration
. The wrong sorts of immigrants
. Low defence spending, with meagre funds mis-spent and too far into the future
. Threat of a cashlessness
. Unaffordable housing driving people into the arms of the Greens
. Bank closures
. Threat of digital ID and consequent surveillance
. Burgeoning censorship of freedom of speech
. Covid-type totalitarianism
. Rewriting of Australian history.
. Race baiting and obsession with race
. People dying because of ramping or never-turning up ambulances (SA in particular)
. Roman Empire bread and circuses to lull the dull.
. Ridiculous preferential voting system
. Part separation of powers that still allows gives elites the power
. Dumbed down education - actually brainwashing
. Politicisation of police forces

ttbn,

You are forgetting Jew bashing. I think it is done for political reasons. Tony Burke's seat is made safer by being pally with the Jew haters in his electorate.

What a silly initial post.

In stating the recognition of Palestinian Statehood should perhaps come earlier in the process Penny Wong is just echoing the UK Conservative Government and its foreign minister David Cameron.

How about we let some level heads progress this rather than keyboard warriors with their rightwing nonsense.

Hi Steele,

Level heads do appear to be trying to sort things out.
We can only hope they succeed.

The BBC tells us that Australia's Foreign Minister Penny
Wong has suggested Australia could recognize Palestinian
Statehood, to increase momentum towards peace.

"However, Hamas could have no role in its governance," the
Foreign Minister said.

Both Australia's opposition in government and the Zionist
Federation of Australia say that such a move would be
premature. Despite the fact that as the Foreign Minister
points out a two-state solution would help undermine and
marginalize Hamas.

We're told that Canberra has long said the recognition of a
Palestinian nation could only come as part of a 2 state solution
brokered with Israel. Israel refuses.

Penny Wong's comments echo a speech by UK Foreign Secretary
David Cameron this year, in which the UK too could recognize
Palestinian Statehood without the support of Israel.

Spain's PM Pedro Sanchez has said that Spain was already
working towards recognition, arguing it was "In the
geopolitical interests of Europe."
"The international community will not be able to help the
Palestinian State if it doesn't recognize its existence."

The Australian Government has increasingly voiced its
concerns about the war against Hamas in Gaza, including after
Australian aid worker was killed alongside six others.

A 2 state solution is seen as the answer - which as Penny Wong
has said would help undermine and marginalize Hamas.

140 countries recognize Palestinian Statehood. The United
Nations is set to consider granting Palestine full membership
of the international body. Weeks of talks have failed to
produce an agreement but international pressure is growing.

http://bbc.com/news/world-australia-68758678

Fester

Yes. That's the main point of Bezza's post. I'm sure there are lots of other things that could be added. But, will anyone take notice?

As Maurice Newman writes:

“The reality is that in just eighty years, Australia has been transformed from a cohesive, resilient, upwardly mobile society, into a divided land of welfare dependents, where double standards and groupthink are the norm. Where books and movies with narratives deemed offensive to the power elites are either withdrawn or rewritten. Where statues of previously worthy citizens are torn down. Yet somehow, discrimination in favour of colour in circumstances that would heap scorn on whites and a government-sponsored referendum seeking constitutionally enshrined privileges for a racial minority, are considered acceptable.”

Our own apathy and loss of faith should be listed. But, OLO does not represent the average Australian, and we might be pleasantly surprised at the next election that there is still some decency and spirit out there. It happened with the Voice. It can happen again.

Pauline Hanson is on the way out.

Get over it.

Another piece of rubbish to add to the list of things that will keep sucking us down the gurgler if it is successful is 'native positive': with an unelected bozo suggesting that the uninhabited Kimberley should have a 40kmp speed limit. Most of the plotting is unknown because of the Communist secrecy.

Who'd have thought ttbn? All the conservatives here on OLO with the eye of suspicion on them as possible card carrying Nazis or KKK members, and now look at who is attacking the Jews and who is defending their name. I guess that everything must have changed when cult leader Albo was musing one day and had his revelation, "You know, Hitler won a motza of support with Jew hatred. I think I'll do the same.". Working a treat for Tones so far.

Here's Oren again discussing a few more truths about Palestinian and Jewish history:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-x-cRReI1A

Fester,

Although some of your conservative views do overlap with the more radical views of far right extremists like Nazis and the KKK, I wouldn't put that extreme label on you. If far right extremism was to gain traction in Australia, and it is a long way from doing that, people of your ilk would be easy prey for those demanding you "come on board" and embrace such ideology. You mentioned Nazis, its true that German conservatives, people equivalent to you in political thinking, believed that they could "come on board" with Nazi ideology and in someway control the excesses of that radicalism. The Nazis treated the conservatives as "Useful Idiots" to be used to achieve their own ends, they successfully did that, and then disposed of the conservatives in true radical style, they murdered them, because they were no longer useful.

You try to portray Albanese and his government as "radical communists", which just shows how out of touch you are. The truth is much like Dutton, Albanese is a follower of moderate liberalism. There is no great philosophical difference between Labor and Liberal, but rather policy difference within the constraints of our capitalistic based democracy, and both parties only argue on what emphases should be applied to their generally similar policies.

Hi Paul,

As I've said, I think the olo community a bunch of ordinary people who care enough to share opinions. Courtesy to one another and respect for one another as human beings is as useful a guide here as it is elsewhere.

As for Albo, he lost my respect when he abandoned the principle of equality, and his carry on about the length of the Uluru statement had similarities to the leadership cults of autocracies. As for funding UNRWA, an agency known to teach children to hate and aspire to the annihilation of Israel, I think that makes Albo and co complicit in child abuse. Economically, I don't think Labor has got the inflation genie back in the bottle, and I don't have confidence in Australia's economic future with the pursuit of renewable energy (e.g. 3 billion aud cost estimated for an 8 gwh pumped hydro storage project: on this basis it would be cheaper to have 100% nuclear than the storage cost alone for a wind and solar system).

Cheers

And speaking of useful idiots, this piece on the chairman of the Palestinian Authority is an eye opener.

"The close connection between the communist USSR and the Palestinian terror movements began immediately after the Six-Day War, starting with Arafat's secret visit to Moscow in July 1968."

https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/04/12/phd-in-holocaust-denial-abbas-doctoral-dissertation-revealed-in-full/

Joe Biden announces that Iran will attack Israel sooner rather than later, but they better not, because the U.S will help Israel.

I wonder if Joe will consult with the genius, Penny Wong, before he does anything. She is bound to have a few words of wisdom for him, being the great foreign policy expert that she thinks she is. Although, it looks as if the U.S has already decided to send reinforcements to Israel without waiting to hear what she thinks.

“We are devoted to the defence of Israel, we will support Israel, we will help defend Israel and Iran will not succeed”, says Joe. Bang goes the “two state solution” rhetoric again. The Mad Mullahs in Iran might go up with a bang, too, if they piss off Joe.

It's heartening that the U.S remains a friend and ally of Israel, unlike Albanese/Wong Australia which is going out of its way to do the dirty on Israel. Shame!

Unlike the windbag ex-Prime Ministers, Keating and Abbott, John Howard rarely comments in retirement unless he is asked too. He has made a comment now, after Wong's absurd two state lecture to nobody in particular - nobody who will listen, anyway.

He has accused the Albanese government, and “Penny Wong in particular” of failing to react in the right way to the October 7 atrocity, and not recognising and speaking out against the “re-emerge of anti-Semitism”.

The Albanese government hasn't been “tough enough and firm enough and unambiguous enough.”

The government should have "given a lead” that prevented the Opera House incident from occurring and bringing shame on Australia.

Howard supports the legitimate aspirations of Palestinians, but comes back to the obvious fact, ignored by the likes of Wong, that the Arabs will not accept Israel's right to exist.

The facts are:

The Australian Foreign Minister, Penny Wong has clearly
stated that a "pathway out of the endless cycle of
violence" can only come with the recognition of -
"a Palestinian State alongside the State of Israel."

Penny Wong made Australia's immediate priorities clear:
"Our demand on all parties is for an immediate
humanitarian ceasefire, enabling the return of hostages,
the protection of civilians, and for a safe and
unimpeded humanitarian access."

Wong said that the Australian government would call on
all parties to return to the table and support efforts to
advance a political process.

She was emphatic that the Australian government saw -
"no role for Hamas in a future Palestinian State!"

Of course the West relies on Israeli PM Netanyahu to agree
to come to the table. So far attempts have not succeeded.
Perhaps things will change if the US withdraws its support.

"Of course the West relies on Israeli PM Netanyahu to agree
to come to the table. So far attempts have not succeeded."

More Jew hatred from Foxy. The Israelis have been seeking peace and a two state solution for over 75 years, yet Foxy portrays it as the fault of Israel. No surprise there. Perhaps Penny could present as neutral, but that wouldn't be a good vote winner here. The contrast in conduct over the deaths of Galit Carbone and Zomi Frankcom scores her no points for diplomacy.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/peace-won-t-be-achieved-through-speeches-like-these-20240410-p5fiv5.html

Fester

I'm not the only one who can't make any impression on the mad old bat. All we are doing is giving her more oxygen to keep on ranting and raving about the rubbish opinions she hoiks off every loony Left site she can find.

We need to get the fact that she is one of three left wing nutters who are too far off the planet for the rest of us to understand, let alone deal with; and she is the very worst and most obnoxious of the three.

Fester,

Israel historian would strongly disagree with your take
on Israel and what it's been doing for over 70 years.
You need to do some research and find out about the myths
and the reality behind the state of Israel.

There's a big difference.

And quoting from history does not make anyone an anti-Semite
or a Jew hater. As Eli Wiesel once said - you can't
keep on playing the victim or misusing the Holocaust forever.

Fester,

If you really are interested in facts - Antony Loewenstein's
"My Israel Question," is a good place to start. As is
Israeli historian's -
Prof. Elan Pappe's "Ten myths about Israel."
To name just two works

ttbn,

Shame on you.

You say that you're for freedom of speech and support
a variety of opinions. But when facts are presented
from historical sources - you get down to being
your usual narrow, nasty, and negative self.

As for me being all the things you claim I am.

"" "Excuse me. I am not a mirror!"

Courtesy is always a winner ttbn. Why do you think you get baited all the time? I have lots of rellies with a spectrum of political views and I hold the view that you can't judge people by their politics. I think the best you can do here is try to understand why people think as they do.

In the case of the Australian aid worker killed, I believe that the investigation noted that Hamas terrorists were observed in and around the vehicles. I think that one terrorist was observed firing from a vehicle. If that is the case then the aid workers might have been human shields.

Shame on me for giving Foxy more oxygen. I should know better by now.

ttbn,

You should know better but you've been doing it for years
to me.

You thrive to jab.

And silly me, I react. Especially when I read the BS
being posted. My training steps in.

But here's something to appease:

An Add I saw recently that's perfect for you:

Vintage spoon. Hand engraved with the words "shyte-stirrer"
on the open face. Mode to order for Father's Day.

Especially for you.

You're welcome.

Fester,

Sorry. Foxy’s petulant ‘last word’ got in the way of your last post.

I don't know whether or not you are suggesting that I am not courteous. My generation was brought up to be courteous, and I generally agree with you. But these days, courteousness does not have a high priority and, frankly, too many people don't deserve it.

I just treat people the way they treat me. It works pretty well.

As for Foxy and her obvious lack of socialisation and her dogmatism, my better self says that I should ignore her. That’s the only thing that's going to work with a person like her, and I'm really too old now to bother myself with idiots. I have seen the best of life in this country, and I should leave the arguments to those who are going to have to deal with what is coming for them.

I am certainly past the stage of bothering myself with why “people think as they do”, and I judge people according to my values and my 80 plus years of experience. I don't stick to some formula. My family, like yours, has its fair share of people with opinions different from mine; but they are real people, not anonymous keyboard warriors who can talk any old bullsh-t as they hide behind a computer.

You should do your own thing, but you are wasting your time (as I have been) with the likes of Foxy.

Hi ttbn,

All I'm saying is that everyone presents much better in a discussion when they are courteous. Good arguments speak for themselves.

Foxy,

"Israel historian would strongly disagree with your take
on Israel and what it's been doing for over 70 years."

Tell then Foxy: When was the last time a two state solution was agreed to by the Palestinians and rejected by Israel?

I enjoyed this comment from Quora:

"They were offered a state in 1948 - which they refused, because it wasn’t “from the river to the sea”

They could have merged the west bank with Jordan in 1967, when Israel offered to give back all the land it won in the war for peace. Again refused.

They were offered a state in 2000 (and Billions for reparations and economic aid) and Arafat walked, and launched the 2nd Intifada.

Was each state offer smaller than the one before? Well, that’s what happens when you keep declaring war, and losing.

Oh - and as for the delightful answer of “why should they accept part of the land when European Colonists stole the rest”. It’s amazing how much mis-information can be contained in one sentence. Without judging whether it’s deliberate, or just out of ignorance, I’ll just point out.

1) Nothing was “stolen” in the 19th century and early 20th - everyone acknowledges that the jews that migrated to what was then the Ottomon empire bought the land.

2) By the end of WW II, Jewish population of “Transjordan” had reached ~500,000 people. All there legally.

3) When the UN Partition plan was declared, not only did the Arab states reject the plan, they forcibly ejected the jews living there. Hundreds of thousands of people in thriving communities in Bagdhad, Tehran, Alexandria, and Yemen reduced to basically nothing.

About 50% of Israeli Jews today is descended from these refugees. Since then, are there loud calls for reparations, or right of return, for all that those families lost?

Nope. But maybe, just maybe if it’s better understood we can put to rest this nonsense of “european colonization”"

Hi Foxy,

I totally agree with the points Penny Wong made, like the majority of world opinion, Australia supports a two state solution as the only viable outcome that can give a semblance of peace and stability. BTW I also agree that there is no place for Hamas in any future Palestinian state.

Having a couple of the forums nut jobs accusing others, particularly you of antisemitism and Jew hating because they offer a rational opinion against their position of lunacy is laughable.

As for ttbn and a claim of "courtesy", that coming from the forums number one narcissist, and he refers to you as the "mad old bat".

Fester, the position today is far different from that of 1968. I agree, at one time the Arab world was hell bent on the annihilation of the state of Israel, that is no longer a possibility, Israel with US backing is far to strong militarily. The Israeli offers of a separate Palestinian have been hollow, heavily biased in Israels favour.

Provocation against Iran by Israel attacking the Iranian consulate in Syria, killing 7, in retaliation for Iran supporting anti-Israeli forces such as Hezbollah. Israeli attacks on targets in Syria is not new, they have been going on since 2017, but this latest attack could result in a wider and more deadlier war across the Middle East, lets hope not.

Hi Paul,

All this arguing is getting tiresome.

All any person has to do is research. The historical
facts speak for themselves. What Israel has ever offered
was always only on their terms, and of course their
terms were refused.

There is so much material out there that's currently
available - you don't have to look very far to learn
the reality of the State of Israel.

http://news.un.org/en/story/2024/01/1145807#

'Nuff said.

Hi Paul,

Don't concern yourself about the slur of "mad old bat."

Bats are actually unique. They are beneficial. They eat
insects and pollinate plants and play an important role in
keeping ecosystems healthy and in balance.

Many myths are associated with bats, such as the saying,
"blind as a bat." This isn't true. Bats can see quite well.
Nor are bats destructive pests like rats and mice.

However, I've heard that with human pests, if being polite
doesn't work - and nothing else that you've tried, works.
I've heard a baseball BAT is quite effective.

Hi Paul,

"from the river to the sea" is still a popular chant with Palestinians, so expulsion of the Jews from Israel is still on the agenda. Palestinian kids are still taught to hate Jews and glorify terrorists, and some of those schools are run by UNRWA. An offer of a two state solution has never been accepted by Palestinians.

I see it a bit like India and Pakistan. The Arabs got about 75% of the territory from which several hundred thousand Jews promptly fled in fear of their lives, and when the Brits left the Arabs tried to expel the Jews from the entire territory. You might note that there are a few million Arabs living in Israel, yet almost no Jews living in the surrounding nations.

The Jews don't have to move to surrounding nations they
can merely land grab from the Palestinians. Much easier.
As for Palestinian kids being taught to hate? They don't
need to be taught. They merely have to see what's happening
and continues to happen around them on a daily basis.

Foxy,

It would nice to see you make an argument instead of Jew bashing. What value do you see in expressing such hatred? Tones sees value in Jew bashing as it makes his seat safer, but you, Foxy? What's the payoff in hating for you? And all those poor little kids being taught to hate Jews and glorify murderers in UNRWA schools, partly funded with Australian taxpayer money by Albo and Penny. Disgusting!

Here is some more wisdom from Oren for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNf40sBcvKk

Hi Fester,

All claims about UNRWA schools in Gaza, running an orchestrated plan of teaching Palestinian children to hate Jews, is only promoted by the Israeli media and government. UNRWA employs many thousands of Palestinians in Gaza, mostly in a low level capacity, drivers, labours etc. The accentuation that 12 UNRWA Palestinian workers joined in the terrible event of 7th October 2023 is plausible, given the large number employed.

None of the above justifies the termination of aid to a couple of million desperate people living in Gaza. What do you say?

Gosh. Go back a hundred and fifty years and some people thought indigenous Australians as untrustworthy and conniving. There are civil cases being mounted against UNRWA in several countries.

https://unwatch.org/legal-actions-worldwide-against-unrwa-for-complicity-with-terrorism/

Here is a video of an UNRWA worker kidnapping the body of an Israeli on October 7.

https://twitter.com/ItayBlumental/status/1758833834739507589

Pablo Escobar was also highly respected by his community for his charity work.

Hi Fester,

That is hardly gotcha evidence of massive UNRWA involvement with Hamas, in fact its not evidence at all. The first link from UNWATCH is from 3 countries where private civil action is launched mostly concerning those countries funding of UNRWA, that's not evidence. Your second 30 sec 'X' link is of two men, one armed, loading a dead body into a car, what does that prove? Nothing. I would have though given how rabid you are with claims that UNRWA is massively involved with HAMAS you would actually have some evidence. Given your political bent on the subject, its nothing more than supposition on your part.

"Your second 30 sec 'X' link is of two men, one armed, loading a dead body into a car, what does that prove? Nothing."

You're right as usual Paul, but how is your view of what constitutes evidence for an act by an alleged UNRWA employee consistent with your acceptance of George Pell's guilt on the basis of the word of one person about an alleged event decades prior?

Hi Fester,

"your acceptance of George Pell's guilt on the basis of the word of one person about an alleged event decades prior?"

In the first instance, Pell was found guilty, by a court of law, and there was no verdict delivered by me, that was that. Then Pell was exonerated on that one specific charge, on a legal technicality, and not on the evidence, rightly so. Many other allegations, about 20 in total, of Pell committing paedophilia have been aired, there will never be another case brought before a court of law as the bloke is dead. That's my thoughts on Pell. If I had been a choir boy in the days of Pell, would I have felt safe left in his company, on balance probably not.

"how is your view of what constitutes evidence" The findings of a court of law, rather than hearsay and media gossip, like on this forum.

Good Morning Fester,

I wasn't able to reply to you on this site earlier
because I'd used up my quota of posts. My apologies.

I did put a post on another discussion.

Amnesty International and many other humanitarian
organizations have expressed their concern of the
unprecedented scale of the eruption of violence
between Israel and Palestinian armed groups.

The brutality inflicted on civilians by both sides in
the conflict has shocked the world. The attacks by Palestinian
armed groups are quickly and rightly condemned by the
international community.

But it's Israel's unrelenting assault on occupied
Palestinian Territories that has caused by far the
greatest devastation.

The aerial bombardment and a ground invasion of Gaza by the
IDF has created a desperate humanitarian disaster. And as
military operations are carried out with little apparent
regard for civilian lives the death toll keeps climbing
daily.

You accused me of Jew bashing and Jew hatred.
No. Giving facts from various sources, and quoting world
opinions including from humanitarian organisations, as well
as supplying reputable links does not amount to either Jew
bashing or Jew hatred.

However, this is quite common. It's what happens when you dare
to criticize Israel as even many famous Jews have learned.
You become persona non grata. You're not allowed to
criticize Israel. Even though Israel currently deserves
criticism of the most severe kind.

I believe, along with Miriam Margolyes, Antony Loewenstein,
Prof. Ilan Pappe, and so many other, that "My country, right
or wrong, does not work."

But don't get me wrong. I do not blame you in any way for
your opinion. You are not alone - even though support for
Israel without questioning its actions is now dwindling.
There's so many false narratives and such high stakes
that it is crucial everyone knows how to fact-check the
information they come across.

Especially always verify the source of information. And,
look-out for dehumanizing language as well as read the
documentation in full.

I look forward to further other discussions with you.

In this one - I'm out!

"Many other allegations, about 20 in total, of Pell committing paedophilia have been aired,"

By your standards Paul that statement is as meaningless as the thousands of alleged examples of terrorism, support of terrorism and abusing children by UNRWA employees, including the IDF finding a major Hamas facility under UNRWA HQ and connected to its power supply. I guess you will have to wait for the court cases before you can give it any credibility.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240210-israel-claims-hamas-tunnel-found-under-un-agency-gaza-hq

Hi Fester,

Yes, they are allegations, and allegations are not proven beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law. In war there are lots of allegations made by both sides, some are eventually proven, others are not. Many allegations are made for propaganda purposes. The "evidence" concerning the UNRWC that you posted, and I made reference to, was in my opinion weak in the extreme. What there is evidence for, and its undisputed fact, tens of thousands of Palestinians, mostly women and children are dead at the hands of the Zionists. Much stronger allegations, than your "evidence" about the culpability of the UNRWC with terrorism. There are claims that the IDF is killing so many as an act of retaliation, along with the other reason of ethnically cleansing Gaza of the Palestinians, so an expanded Pan-Israeli state is the final outcome.

Just as a side; What do you believe should be the final outcome for the 2 million Palestinians living in Gaza?

Dear Paul,

«What there is evidence for, and its undisputed fact, tens of thousands of Palestinians, mostly women and children are dead at the hands of the Zionists.»

It is alleged, but unproven and still disputed that:

* Tens of thousands of [non-combatant] Palestinians are indeed dead.
* They were killed by Israel, rather than by Hamas (including for the sake of boosting that number and/or as punishment for supporting Israel or providing it with information).
* They are mostly women and children.
* Even if killed by Israel, their Israeli killer(s) are Zionist(s).

«There are claims that the IDF is killing so many as an act of retaliation, along with the other reason of ethnically cleansing Gaza of the Palestinians, so an expanded Pan-Israeli state is the final outcome.»

If these claims are correct, then that means that the IDF is undisciplined and acts against the official orders of its commanders.

I consider it likely that a few IDF soldiers do act against their orders and I hope they be caught and brought to justice.

And if indeed an expanded Pan-Israeli state and/or ethnic cleansing is the desired outcome, then Israel is doing extremely poorly and as Napoleon commented about his loss of soldiers: "one night in Paris will replace them all"!

Thanks Foxy,

Yes, I think the discussion is pretty much exhausted. I don't think we agree on much at all, but if we come out of it without thinking one another monsters I believe that we have both done very well.

Thanks Paul,

I appreciate you taking the time to share your views. It is an incredibly sad and depressing conflict.

"Just as a side; What do you believe should be the final outcome for the 2 million Palestinians living in Gaza?"

They all need to stop hating, Paul.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svIa02N6JUo

Cheers

Thanks Fester,

I don't think you're a monster. I think you're a
decent, rational, human being. And, I think we
have indeed done well.

Take care.

Hi Fester,

I don't believe all Arabs hate all Jews, no more than I believe all Jews hate all Arabs. What has been lacking for decades is any kind of empathy from one towards the other. I understand that after the horrors of WWII many Jews hoped for a new beginning, a new life, in a land of their own, in what is now Israel. They arrived as settlers to start that new life, but there was little consideration given to the Palestinians who occupied the land, and had done so for centuries. A chain of hostile events has led to today's catastrophe where radicals on both sides have ceased control, escalated the situation, and the result is self evident.
I asked; What do you believe should be the final outcome for the 2 million Palestinians living in Gaza?

You answered; "They all need to stop hating"

Do you see the Palestinians living in a homeland of their own, coexisting peacefully alongside the state of Israel. Or will the violence and bloodshed continue ad infinitum.

Hi Yuyutsu,

"If these claims are correct, then that means that the IDF is undisciplined and acts against the official orders of its commanders."

Not so, The Wehrmacht (German army) actively participated in the mass extermination process during WWII, particularly in Russia, whilst conducting a well planned and disciplined war. That was all done without any official orders from Berlin. BTW the Nazis never had an official state policy of extermination of Jews and others. In fact underlings carefully avoided the subject with Hitler. Historians to this day, still ponder the question, how did it happen? I couldn't be official policy, as the Nazis wanted it covered up. Auschwitz was not a death camp, officially it was a work camp, but it contained all the apparatus necessary to conduct mass extermination.

Dear Paul,

«That was all done without any official orders from Berlin.»

Unlike the Wehrmacht, the IDF HAS official orders in the matter:
IDF chief of staff, Herzi Halevy, made it most clear that revenge as such is unacceptable, nor the harming of civilians if it can be avoided without a risk to soldiers or hostages.

I am not aware of any deliberate killing of civilians by the IDF, not that it means that no individual soldier ever done so. What I have read about, disgusting in itself, is that certain soldiers decided on their own to torch a vacant Gazan house (beyond the operational necessities) "in memorial" for such-and-such fallen comrade.

Those who did so acted against their orders and should be brought to justice.

Hi Paul,

They all need to stop hating as in all Palestinians and Israelis who hate one another. That might be a little hard for the Palestinians believing it their religious duty to exterminate the Jews, so there is a role to play by Islamic leaders and scholars to challenge such beliefs and call for tolerance and acceptance. That might be a long way off if UNWRA continues to teach Palestinian children hatred as this video claims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M06S7R6vfVs

The Palestinian elites also heavily push and ideology of hatred and genocide, as this report demonstrates:

https://palwatch.org/STORAGE/special%20reports/Kill_A_Jew.pdf

Hi Fester,

Prior to 1948 about 650,000 Jews lived in Palestine, they coexisted with Arabs under a British mandate, before that under Ottoman rule. The Ottoman's (Muslims) had no problem with the Jews or their religion, in fact over the centuries they had far more problems with the Christian Europeans than they did with Jews. To say; "religious duty to exterminate the Jews" not true, from a biblical sense, Muslims view Jews as a branch on the same tree as them. There was never any attempt by Muslims to convert Jews to Islam, like Christians they believe in one common God.

Hi Paul,

Yes, we live in a dynamic world, and the practice of religion varies. What's relevant is how Islam is being practiced by Palestinians, and that seems to involve bringing up kids with the desire to exterminate the Jews and become martyrs. UNRWA is involved with this child abuse, and thanks to Albo and Penny, Australians are supporting the abuse of children financially.

https://palwatch.org/page/34796

Dear Paul,

Indeed, Islam has no problem with Jews and indeed the whole Middle-East situation has little to do with religion.

What Arabs (which only happen to also be Muslim) do have a serious problem with, is the modernity and progress brought from Europe by the Zionist movement, threatening the rule of clergy and of men over women. The Arabs initially welcomed the Zionists and certainly welcomed their money, but then it was the clerics and Muftis who incited the masses against the Zionists. They may have used the word "Jews" as pretext, but they were fine with the Orthodox Jews who already lived among them.

As the Arab world gradually comes out of the Middle Ages, more Arab countries are happy to make peace with Israel. Indonesia too is now about to normalise relations with Israel.

The reality is that conservatives of any religion are happy to live with each other and so are progressives of any religion.

Hi Yuyutsu,

Something I think we can agree on, the three Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are in different stages of religious and social development. I believe Christianity is the most socially developed of the three, although Judaism is the oldest, and Islam the youngest. Fundamentalism and orthodoxy are far more evident in Judaism and Islam than it is in Christianity, which has very much past through that phase of its development, "thank Christ for that", and thanks to the Age of Enlightenment which swept across Europe starting in the 17th Century, but still remnants of Christian fundamentalism and orthodoxy still exist. I think you may find some of that in the stabbing of the Assyrian Orthodox Christian Bishop in Sydney, and the subsequent riot by his followers. I believe fundamentalism of religion in any form has no place in a modern progressive society like ours.

Dear Paul,

To begin with, I do not believe the "three Abrahamic religions" to actually be religions.

That doesn't mean that people cannot successfully utilise and incorporate elements of Judaism, Christianity and/or Islam as part of their own religion - many in fact do!

While Christianity was kicked off by the followers of an enlightened sage, Jesus Christ, it quickly deteriorated into a political movement, then split into several factions, most of which later transformed into social movements.

Islam is one of these factions, originally started as an heretical Christian sect.

Judaism on the other hand, is a national movement from the start. While its legends go earlier in time, what most consider to be its religious aspects as are known today, are not that old and dated around 800 A.D., likely following Christianity's example.

This could possibly explain your thesis why fundamentalism is still relatively more evident in the younger Islam AND Judaism than in the older Christianity.

We don't like fundamentalism, but it is a fact which provides a better explanation as to what occurred in Israel during the first half of the 20th century when old and new clashed.